Family Friendliness of Training (PA vs MD/DO)

[ejw5075]

The title pretty much speaks for itself. I’m wondering what you all believe is more family friendly PA school or medical school? Not which career, rather the schooling required to get there. I’ve always assumed medical school provided one of the most demanding schedules but I’d like to hear from those in PA school (or practicing Pas) and if there are any PA→MD/DO reading. Thanks 🙂

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[pinkzebra]

i recently asked this question to my friend in PA school - she is at PCOM. She told her that if she had a family, she would go MD instead of choosing PA school. I questioned her about that, and here are her exact words, copied and pasted from our email:

You'd still see your family more, believe it or not. The pacing of PA school is ridiculous...for example our med students get three months for their neuro block, we got two weeks. Our TAs for anatomy were second year med students and they were amazed at how fast we had to move through the same curriculum that they had. We are expected to have the same knowledge set as the med students because we share a lot of the same rotation sites. I was at school between 90-100 hrs a week, and that's not just me, I probably studied less than a good chunk of my classmates because I need to get at least four hours of sleep a night. We had three huge exams every week plus other assignments, so you are constantly in cram mode. The med students had an exam every 2-3 weeks, and they go at a more leisurely pace than we did (which is crazy because med school is still very tough!) The parents in our class never saw their kids, and it was tough for them. Because of how fast we move through things we have a ridiculous attendance policy, you're only allowed to miss if you are hospitalized, an immediate family member died, or there is law enforcement involved. The girl next to me had pneumonia for two months and never missed a day, others had the flu and other medical conditions that they had to suffer through. Doctors appointments aren't excused, and one mom even had her daughter sent home from school sick and she couldn't go home to be with her. They made it work but a couple of them told me they wouldn't have gone through school had they known how hard it would have been on their families.


interesting perspective?

 

[rrt]

All I can share is prior interview with the ex director of the military's IPAP (PA) program. He is now the dean at Texas Tech. In a somewhat casual conversation, I had expressed the feeling of wanting to go to PA school. I told him I had at one time in my life wanted to be a doctor, but felt that PA school was a better route to take due to wanting to start a family. He told me that in his opinion, PA school was much more compressed than medical school, and that while you may not cover as much information (impossible in 2 years with retention imo) you are typically more busy than a medical student is. In the Army, they actually have a meeting set up available to incoming PA students family members on how to deal with your spouse being home, but being extremely busy.

 

[tkim]

The title pretty much speaks for itself. I’m wondering what you all believe is more family friendly PA school or medical school? Not which career, rather the schooling required to get there. I’ve always assumed medical school provided one of the most demanding schedules but I’d like to hear from those in PA school (or practicing Pas) and if there are any PA→MD/DO reading. Thanks 🙂

I am not going to get into the "PA curriculum is more compressed than med school" which, honestly, unless you've been through both, you can't make a comparison.

However, training-wise. Two years for PA versus seven minimum to be board certified in anything besides preventative medicine. Easy to conclude which one is 'family friendly'.

 

[deleted6669]

.

However, training-wise. Two years for PA versus seven minimum to be board certified in anything besides preventative medicine. Easy to conclude which one is 'family friendly'.

the question was about school, not residency.
there are some fp residencies out there that are cushier than some pa jobs in terms of hours so a direct comparison of SCHOOL ONLY is the discussion at hand. I know I am in the hospital more hrs/week then any of the pgy2/pgy3 fp residents at my facility. intern yr is tough, I will give them that. after that though it's call from home, night floats, 50-60 hr weeks, etc.
my personal experience was that pa's were in class 8-5 while medstudents were in class 9-3. ms3 and pa2 were scheduled interchangeably at my program so that's a wash. ms4 is as easy or as difficult as students want it to be. some do hard core electives and others take extended vacation and interview breaks. a buddy of mine spent 6 mo of his 4th yr hiking in nepal from clinic to clinic doing very little actual work.
in the long run md is the more family friendly. most of the docs I work with work 120 hrs/mo or so and most pa's work 180+ hrs/mo for 1/3 to 1/2 the salary.
keep your eyes on the prize...the long term. go md.

 

[rrt]

the question was about school, not residency.
there are some fp residencies out there that are cushier than some pa jobs in terms of hours so a direct comparison of SCHOOL ONLY is the discussion at hand. I know I am in the hospital more hrs/week then any of the pgy2/pgy3 fp residents at my facility. intern yr is tough, I will give them that. after that though it's call from home, night floats, 50-60 hr weeks, etc.
my personal experience was that pa's were in class 8-5 while medstudents were in class 9-3. ms3 and pa2 were scheduled interchangeably at my program so that's a wash. ms4 is as easy or as difficult as students want it to be. some do hard core electives and others take extended vacation and interview breaks. a buddy of mine spent 6 mo of his 4th yr hiking in nepal from clinic to clinic doing very little actual work.
in the long run md is the more family friendly. most of the docs I work with work 120 hrs/mo or so and most pa's work 180+ hrs/mo for 1/3 to 1/2 the salary.
keep your eyes on the prize...the long term. go md.

Not to hijack the OP's thread but just wondering if you when through IPAP? I was cadre at Ft. Sam in 2007 and helped a friend and his study group out with their cardio/pulm work. In the end, it ended out helping me out. Also, forgot his name, but the instructor that taught A&P was a terror on his tests. I had the liberty of having to reschedule cardio/pulm for 68V school (rt school if I read you wrong and you are not in the military) due to an illness in the hospital. I walked in and his first words to me were, "I don't normally go over this with your class, so you are just gonna have to work through some of the information I give to the IPAP students." He was a beast!

 

[deleted6669]

sent you a pm.

 

[tkim]

the question was about school, not residency.
there are some residencies out there that are cushier than some pa jobs in terms of hours so a direct comparison of SCHOOL ONLY is the discussion at hand.

Absolutely wrong. And you know, if there was one person who would make this comment, and the ones below, it would be you.

Two years of PA school and you are OUT. You get a job and you get paid.

Four years of med school and you have to do residency. Forget the fact that you are not in school anymore, but you are still in training. You quit after med school and you can't work at all, so it is a defacto requirement and a very real consideration when it comes to family life. To argue otherwise is ridiculous and throws up a pedantic barrier to a real discussion of the sacrifice one has to make to go to med school.

You bring up 'cush' residencies - name them. Name one. If you say derm, I'll laugh. They are vanishingly small in number and availability, and one of the most competitive residencies to get. And four years long, making it a total of eight years in training.

Fact - the majority of residencies are in primary care - internal medicine, family medicine, peds, ob/gyn. All of them require being on call during training. With the new work hour limitations the call hours for interns is less than when I trained not so long ago, but typical call for some rotations will still be Q3 (every third day) and lasts 24-28 hours.

Medicine has these, surgery has these, peds has these, ob/gyn has these. Imagine being up for 24-28 hours every three days. Imagine doing that over a period of three to seven years. Getting paid ****.

in the long run md is the more family friendly.

Wrong. So absolutely wrong. Why are you trying to make it sound like the PA life is so bad? Is it a 'toughness' thing? I get that sense from a lot of your postings.

most of the docs I work with work 120 hrs/mo or so and most pa's work 180+ hrs/mo for 1/3 to 1/2 the salary.

And they were out in two years, versus paying for two additional years of tuition, which accumulated over a span of minimum seven years, with interest, without a real salary for that same period of time.

 

[deleted6669]

the fp residents in my local program and the last program I worked with have a cushy time after intern yr. maybe 50-60 hrs/week and they have night float coverage to help out with call. off service rotations yr 1 are busy but after that it's mostly clinic and hospital rounding on your own pts. many of the pgy2 and pgy 3 moonlight extensively because they have so much free time.
I worked 230 hrs last month. only the interns worked more.
who is happier at 30? the er doc who works 120 hrs/mo for 300k or the pa who works 180 hrs/mo for 90K? who spends more time with their families? look at the long term.
30 yrs of 120 hr months vs 30 yrs of 180 hr months. do the math and that difference of residency goes away pretty quickly.
I'm tired of hearing folks (both docs and pa's) whine about loans. if it bothers you so much pay them off. live like a student for 2 yrs while making 300k/yr and they are gone in 1-2 yrs. I know a few er docs who did this. debt free at 32. they drove their crappy car and lived in their resident housing for 2 yrs and paid 10k/mo on their loans and now swim in money vacation extensively, drive sports cars, etc
I didn't say the pa's job was more difficult just that the avg pa puts in a lot more hrs/mo than the avg doc after the completion of training. surgery and surgical subspecialties are probably the only exception.

 

[tkim]

who is happier at 30? the er doc who works 120 hrs/mo for 300k or the pa who works 180 hrs/mo for 90K? who spends more time with their families? look at the long term.

But wait - I thought we were only talking about "school" time.

 

[deleted6669]

But wait - I thought we were only talking about "school" time.

you were the one who wanted to look at the big picture so there it is.
120 hrs/mo for 300k/yr or 180 hrs/mo for 90k/yr ....for 30 yrs...guess who misses more birthdays, holidays, first steps, etc
md partners in my current er group can work as little as 60 hrs/mo and remain full partners....and at that they still make as much or more than the pa working 180 hrs/mo.
get over yourself. yes, md school/residency is hard. wah. so are lots of things. when you are done with residency you can work part time and still make 100k+. not too many jobs allow one to do that.

 

[tkim]

you were the one who wanted to look at the big picture so there it is.
120 hrs/mo for 300k/yr or 180 hrs/mo for 90k/yr ....for 30 yrs...guess who misses more birthdays, holidays, first steps, etc
md partners in my current er group can work as little as 60 hrs/mo and remain full partners....and at that they still make as much or more than the pa working 180 hrs/mo.
get over yourself. yes, md school/residency is hard. wah. so are lots of things. when you are done with residency you can work part time and still make 100k+. not too many jobs allow one to do that.

Same to you, fella. PA school is hard. Wah. Can't see my kids. Wah. I work 60 hours more and make way less. Wah.

 

[deleted6669]

. PA school is hard. .

that may be the first time you have ever used those words together.

 

[tkim]

that may be the first time you have ever used those words together.

That was quoting you, dude.

And I challenge you to find anything I've posted that ****s on PAs or their training. Take your time and get back to me if you can. You've got a real persecution, reverse-slef-esteem thing going with the PA title.

 

[rrt]

So I'm at work at the sleep lab tonight. The resident on duty and a PA from fast track came in to say hi. I showed them this post, and it started a eye opening discussion.

PA: Man, I hardly had time to work out during the first year, once clinical started, I wasn't hitting the books quite as hard, but I felt like my phone wouldn't stop ringing!

DO: Yea, first year was time consuming. I remember the summer after being really cush. We went on vacation in preparation of the next 3 years. I had already known that it was going to be a long road.

Me: What were clinicals like for you (to DO)?

DO: You know, it wasn't that bad. When I was home, I knew I had to devote time to books and studies, but I found myself playing video games or watching my son play. I couldn't help coach his football team like I did before I matriculated, but that was a given.

PA: (probably joking, but it didn't sound like a joke) You played video games @_@???!!!

 

[deleted6669]

So I'm at work at the sleep lab tonight. The resident on duty and a PA from fast track came in to say hi. I showed them this post, and it started a eye opening discussion.

PA: Man, I hardly had time to work out during the first year, once clinical started, I wasn't hitting the books quite as hard, but I felt like my phone wouldn't stop ringing!

DO: Yea, first year was time consuming. I remember the summer after being really cush. We went on vacation in preparation of the next 3 years. I had already known that it was going to be a long road.

Me: What were clinicals like for you (to DO)?

DO: You know, it wasn't that bad. When I was home, I knew I had to devote time to books and studies, but I found myself playing video games or watching my son play. I couldn't help coach his football team like I did before I matriculated, but that was a given.

PA: (probably joking, but it didn't sound like a joke) You played video games @_@???!!!

yup. docs get vacation between ms1 and ms2. pa's go straight through. 100 weeks in 2 years vs 150 weeks for md in 4 yrs.....4th yr at a lot of places is a total joke with electives, vacation, and "interview months".

 

[TriagePreMed]

You bring up 'cush' residencies - name them. Name one. If you say derm, I'll laugh. They are vanishingly small in number and availability, and one of the most competitive residencies to get. And four years long, making it a total of eight years in training.

By no means to argue with a doctor, but I worked some time for a county hospital system that had a super cush psychiatry residency. They literally had no nights and no calls all 4 years. They only did 10 hours a day during internship and then 6-7 during residency. I know this example is n=1, but maybe there are easy residencies within specialties? It doesn't need to be a specialty completely.

 

[Rouelle]

The title pretty much speaks for itself. I'm wondering what you all believe is more family friendly PA school or medical school? Not which career, rather the schooling required to get there. I've always assumed medical school provided one of the most demanding schedules but I'd like to hear from those in PA school (or practicing Pas) and if there are any PA→MD/DO reading. Thanks 🙂

My wife is just completing the didactic year (15 months) of PA school and is about start the clinical phase. We are students at the same health science center and a couple of our close friends are med students and their families. In my best attempt to be objective, I would have to say that for a short duration the intensity of the PA program does exceed that of the MD program at our school. The MD program is by no means easy, but they do get more breaks off from school, have less demanding class schedules, etc. As far as which is more family friendly...it would be hard to say. The PA program is extremely intense for a short time, but then it's over. The MD program is still very intense and it lasts longer.

Our hope is that the PA profession will be a more family friendly profession than that of a physician. My wife wants to work for a few years and then move down to part time (or occasional weekend work in rural hospitals) and raise the kids we plan to have. It seems like part time work, or even taking a few years off, is more feasible for a PA than for a physician who has a ton of student loans and a specialty to stay on top of.

 

[ejw5075]

Thanks for the responses everyone and I apologize for stirring up some obvious hostilities. I guess there really is no right answer except the preclinical years are more time consuming in PA school vs Med school.

 

[TriagePreMed]

Thanks for the responses everyone and I apologize for stirring up some obvious hostilities. I guess there really is no right answer except the preclinical years are more time consuming in PA school vs Med school.

There is a right answer: 7+ years training > 2 years training. Besides, internship year alone is probably more torture than any of the 2 years of PA school. 7 years of 90%+ bombarded > 2 years of 100% bombarded. I don't know why this is a debate.

 

[hopefuldoc97239]

...I apologize for stirring up some obvious hostilities...

Well I don't mean to stir up the $hit even more, but I think people are overlooking a major difference between PA students and MD students...

What if PA students are more stressed by their program because the PA students, on average, just don't do as well in school?

For example, at my school the average cumulative GPA of the 2010 incoming PA class was 3.51, whereas the cumulative GPA for the MD class was 3.63.

Wouldn't it make sense that if you throw the same material at both cohorts, the PA students would find it more of a burden?

***

And I know that the difference in GPA might seem small (3.63 - 3.51 = 0.12), but you have to remember that the PA program doesn't require o-chem, biochem, or physics, which are definitely dragging down the GPA's of the incoming MD class. If the PA class had to take the same pre-reqs, their class GPA might be even lower.