FAQs for IMGs wanting to match into top psychiatry programs

[splik]

I would strongly, strongly recommend having everything in for Sep 15th. Now it certainly will not prevent you getting interviews if not all your LORs are in on time (I had one LOR not come in until a month after sep 1st the old ERAS opening date) there are many programs that will still look at your applications. But to think it won't disadvantage you at all, well it will. I can only speculate, but I feel if I had had everything in on time I may have got more interviews. Hell, I even (as mentioned above) got rejected initially from the program I am currently at! As a US student you could submit the whole thing a month late and it probably wouldn't matter, but for an IMG really do your best to get everything in on time.

Also remember that there are delays. I asked for the LoR that came in October back in June! I also asked for 5 LoRs to have back ups as I knew (rightly) not everyone would be reliable!

I will also say I started getting interviews before I had a complete application, but most places didn't offer me interviews until much later. That in itself can be anxiety provoking. The later you get a complete app in, the later it will take for interviews to come in, and some never will.

Also it is fine to get 2 LoRs from one elective (say your August one). You are likely to work with more than 1 attending in that month, and if not you should try to.

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[shan564]

Just to add to the previous comment - I had a very similar experience, except it was my Step 2CS score instead of my last LOR. A couple of weeks won't make a huge difference, since many places don't even look at your application before the MSPE comes out on Oct 1. I got 3 interview invitations in September, and at least 20-25 in October (starting around Oct 4-5).

And yes, you can submit your ERAS app before your last LOR comes in, and then add the LOR when it shows up. Considering your situation, there's no downside to doing that... if you didn't meet a programs minimum requirements before getting your last LOR, you'll automatically show up in their system afterwards.

 

[coolncrazy]

Hi shan,Splik
first of all thank you splik,shan..I read many of your posts they are very helpful. I am an img from India graduated in 2011,I need your help. I will be with my step 1 and 2 scores by end of september .am going to take step 2 cs in October so i will get my result by December.

shall i apply with my step1 and step 2ck in the third week of September or i simply go for next year match.

How important it is for an img who needs a visa to have step 2 cs result prior to applying.
Ps; sent PM for you shan and splik

 

[shan564]

I did the same thing as you, but I didn't need a visa. Applying without a CS result is definitely a big hindrance and was definitely the biggest mistake that I made in my application. CS is an easy test, so I should have taken it earlier, even if that required me to sacrifice preparation time.

As for whether to apply - I'd probably still apply. The delayed CS score will restrict your invitations, but it won't shut them off completely. You might get half as many interviews as you would have otherwise gotten. If you're a good candidate, you'll have enough interviews so that you'll still have a choice.

I had a classmate who did something similar to you, and she also needed a visa. She applied to 40 programs in pediatrics, was invited for 4 interviews, and matched at the place that she ranked #1. I'd imagine that if she'd applied to 150 places, she probably would have received 15 interview invitations. So it can definitely be done. And psychiatry is probably a bit less competitive than pediatrics.

 

[coolncrazy]

Thanks for your reply shan. Now I have two options to choose

1)If i give CS in august i may get result in october but that will push my ck exam n the result of ck may come in october 2 nd week .that means i can have a complete application with CS result in the month of october most probably by third week n then I apply

2)The second one as i stated in the above post..getting done with ck n applying in september then giving cs late in october(results in December)

which option gets me more ivs ,completed mid octobet application or incomplete late september application?

 

[Landolt323]

Hi Splik and Shan
Im applying for the match in psychiatry this year. I am an IMG , have scores >220 on my boards. But I have an attempt on my CS. This attempt was a foolish move on my part and was given a year before i took my written boards. I was poorly prepared with regard to managing time and failed to finish around five encounters.
Should I talk about this in my personal statement or wait for it to be brought up during the interview? Would appreciate your feedback on this..

Thanks
Confused

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Hi Splik and Shan
Im applying for the match in psychiatry this year. I am an IMG , have scores >220 on my boards. But I have an attempt on my CS. This attempt was a foolish move on my part and was given a year before i took my written boards. I was poorly prepared with regard to managing time and failed to finish around five encounters.
Should I talk about this in my personal statement or wait for it to be brought up during the interview? Would appreciate your feedback on this..

Thanks
Confused

If you have a subsequent pass, most programs will overlook it, especially in the context of the >220 boards. There's always a handful of US medical grads who blow their first pass too.

Save the space in the personal statement for answering the all important questions: "Why Psychiatry?" and "Why Me?"

 

[Landolt323]

If you have a subsequent pass, most programs will overlook it, especially in the context of the >220 boards. There's always a handful of US medical grads who blow their first pass too.

Save the space in the personal statement for answering the all important questions: "Why Psychiatry?" and "Why Me?"

Thank you

 

[phoenix17]

hi,
i recently got my step 1 score...i got 212...(very dissapointing..all my nbme scores were >240..)..im an international student.n..i know its a very low score....bt im planning to work much harder for step2 and im not graduated yet...so,planning on dng 4-6 mnths usce...
do you think is ther any chance getting psychiatry residency...i want to knw what my chances are(please be frank..i need it)..
any advice is highly appreciated

 

[splik]

yes please read through this FAQs, i scored lower than that and got interviews at a number of great programs. just make you application as good as you can in other ways. ideally do psychiatry electives in the US whilst still a medical student, do better on Step 2, get strong letters of recommendation etc. I won't repeat myself, just read through this thread again.

 

[phoenix17]

sry for asking similar questions again....but thanku for replying...felt a lot better

 

[Jorje286]

One vs two electives in the US?

I am planned to take two electives in psychiatry these coming two months. Financially, I prefer to have one rather than two. All I need are two letters of recommendation from US based psychiatrists, and I could probably get them both from the same rotation. Would an additional month of elective make a real difference to my application?

 

[splik]

a number of programs require a minimum of two months us clinical exerience so whilst its okay to have 2 letters from the same elective you want to be able to check off that 2 month box.

 

[rofranco]

Hi Landolt,

I read your message and I realized that I am in the same boat as you were on past year. I would like to talk with someone in the same situation since I need some advices.

Would you mind if we talk by skype?.

My skype id is: rodrigo.francisco.pe
My email is: [email protected]

Please, let me know.

All the best.

 

[shan564]

You're unlikely to get a response from somebody who posted twice a year ago and has since not posted anywhere on these forums, unless maybe you send a private message.

 

[vanfanal]

So....226 on step 1. I was hoping for something at least in the 230s. The scores on SDN seem really high. I don't know what to make of it. Any advice?

 

[splik]

Please read through the FAQs. I do not like repeating myself. thanks.

 

[shan564]

I love repeating myself. And/or hearing the sound of my own voice in any way. Or read my own writing/typing. 226 is fine.

 

[vanfanal]

I love repeating myself. And/or hearing the sound of my own voice in any way. Or read my own writing/typing. 226 is fine.

Thank you.

 

[barzan]

.

 

[jakeislove]

Thanks for a very informative thread.

 

[EVOLVED9]

Hey there splik.kindly take a little time to give me your guidance and honest opinion for my query.i'm a med grad student from india.i desire to persue residency in psychiatry in the united states.initially when i began preparing for the mles i had internal medicine in mind,cause that's the field into which most indian grads match into.ive secured 242 on step 1 nd 256 on step 2 ck.i realised with time that i really wouldnt enjoy internal med and im persuing it only cause i would like to settle in the U.S..a lot of us indians here are english bred and live an evolved lifestyle here.most take up engineering and end up in some or the other venture in the u.s. Im one of those scarce educated nd literate people in india who took up medicine with an intent to practice in the U.S. Wich is the hardest persuit.i havnt finished my internship yet.im willing to give it approx 6 months to do electives and gather LORs..i'd like to know what are my chances of getting matched.can i be looking at good programs? Where do u think i could do electives in psychiatry?right now what i have to offer is good step scores and proficient english.i speak american english perfectly(thanx to a lot t.v. Shows,movies,nat geo,youtube,american friends in india etc.) and can connect with americans pretty well.before joining medicine i studied computer engineering in the u.s. For a semester(long story short,parents put me into medicine here forcibly)..there's no other place i'd wanna live my life but the U.S..please suggest how i can proceed.if the possibility of matching into a GOOD psychiatry program r minimal after i do electives than i would rather settle for internal med.i'l be very greatful for ur guidance.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Just to reply from a Program Director's perspective, doing electives in psychiatry now in India will be helpful in demonstrating that it really is psychiatry that you're committed to, and that you're not just another foreign grad thinking (incorrectly in this day & age) that psychiatry is an easy route to a US residency, and hoping to transfer into another field once you're here.

 

[shan564]

Hey there splik.kindly take a little time to give me your guidance and honest opinion for my query.i'm a med grad student from india.i desire to persue residency in psychiatry in the united states.initially when i began preparing for the mles i had internal medicine in mind,cause that's the field into which most indian grads match into.ive secured 242 on step 1 nd 256 on step 2 ck.i realised with time that i really wouldnt enjoy internal med and im persuing it only cause i would like to settle in the U.S..a lot of us indians here are english bred and live an evolved lifestyle here.most take up engineering and end up in some or the other venture in the u.s. Im one of those scarce educated nd literate people in india who took up medicine with an intent to practice in the U.S. Wich is the hardest persuit.i havnt finished my internship yet.im willing to give it approx 6 months to do electives and gather LORs..i'd like to know what are my chances of getting matched.can i be looking at good programs? Where do u think i could do electives in psychiatry?right now what i have to offer is good step scores and proficient english.i speak american english perfectly(thanx to a lot t.v. Shows,movies,nat geo,youtube,american friends in india etc.) and can connect with americans pretty well.before joining medicine i studied computer engineering in the u.s. For a semester(long story short,parents put me into medicine here forcibly)..there's no other place i'd wanna live my life but the U.S..please suggest how i can proceed.if the possibility of matching into a GOOD psychiatry program r minimal after i do electives than i would rather settle for internal med.i'l be very greatful for ur guidance.

Your stats are good enough so that you'd be competitive at almost every residency program in the US. There are plenty of good programs where you'd have a good shot. My program (WashU) generally has a pretty good reputation and is associated with a highly-ranked medical school, and we've taken plenty of IMGs from India in the past (assuming that they're good applicants overall).

 

[EVOLVED9]

Just to reply from a Program Director's perspective, doing electives in psychiatry now in India will be helpful in demonstrating that it really is psychiatry that you're committed to, and that you're not just another foreign grad thinking (incorrectly in this day & age) that psychiatry is an easy route to a US residency, and hoping to transfer into another field once you're here.

Thankyou for ur response.on the contrary i've been told by many people that matching into psychiatry is not very common for indian medical graduates and that internal medicine would be a certainity.however,i honestly donot have a strong interest in internal med and would be persuing it only so that my future is secure.my passion lies in psychiatry.

 

[EVOLVED9]

Your stats are good enough so that you'd be competitive at almost every residency program in the US. There are plenty of good programs where you'd have a good shot. My program (WashU) generally has a pretty good reputation and is associated with a highly-ranked medical school, and we've taken plenty of IMGs from India in the past (assuming that they're good applicants overall).

Thankyou for ur response.'WashU' has been brought up before me quite a no. Of times.i specifically want to persue psychiatry.are you familiar with any indian medical graduates who've matched into psychiatry? If so what were his/her scores?how many electives did he/she indulge in?is there anything particular to psychiatry that i should fulfill nefore i apply?I feel totally lost as i'm not aquainted with anybody who has persued or is planning to persue psychiatry.most indians look forward to internal medicine/surgery,so they can get those big $$$s later(after subspecialisation)

 

[shan564]

Thankyou for ur response.'WashU' has been brought up before me quite a no. Of times.i specifically want to persue psychiatry.are you familiar with any indian medical graduates who've matched into psychiatry? If so what were his/her scores?how many electives did he/she indulge in?is there anything particular to psychiatry that i should fulfill nefore i apply?I feel totally lost as i'm not aquainted with anybody who has persued or is planning to persue psychiatry.most indians look forward to internal medicine/surgery,so they can get those big $$$s later(after subspecialisation)

Yes, I know several Indians who matched into psych. I know this isn't the case in India, but it's impolite to discuss your scores in the US, so I don't know anybody's scores. I can say that your scores are higher than mine were (I was also an IMG, albeit from Australia).

The quantity of electives doesn't matter. All that matters is that you get your 3 rec letters. So you shouldn't need to do more than 3 electives, but you could get 3 rec letters in 2 electives depending on how the electives are structured.

Your scores are good enough so that they won't stop you from getting into any program that accepts IMGs - if you don't get an interview from one of those programs, the reason will be something other than your scores.

One important thing to do is to prove your commitment to psychiatry, like what OPD said in the previous post. Aside from that, read through the rest of this thread and get a feel for what makes you a good applicant.

 

[EVOLVED9]

Yes, I know several Indians who matched into psych. I know this isn't the case in India, but it's impolite to discuss your scores in the US, so I don't know anybody's scores. I can say that your scores are higher than mine were (I was also an IMG, albeit from Australia).

The quantity of electives doesn't matter. All that matters is that you get your 3 rec letters. So you shouldn't need to do more than 3 electives, but you could get 3 rec letters in 2 electives depending on how the electives are structured.

Your scores are good enough so that they won't stop you from getting into any program that accepts IMGs - if you don't get an interview from one of those programs, the reason will be something other than your scores.

One important thing to do is to prove your commitment to psychiatry, like what OPD said in the previous post. Aside from that, read through the rest of this thread and get a feel for what makes you a good applicant.

thanx a great deal to all of you for taking the time to give your advice.ive read through the thread and many others concerning psychiatry.feel pretty down that i dint finish my electives nd apply this year,there's no way i can apply before december end..nd i dont want to settle for just any program in any field.i long only for psychiatry and only in a good program.

 

[splik]

Hey there splik.kindly take a little time to give me your guidance and honest opinion for my query.i'm a med grad student from india.i desire to persue residency in psychiatry in the united states.initially when i began preparing for the mles i had internal medicine in mind,cause that's the field into which most indian grads match into.ive secured 242 on step 1 nd 256 on step 2 ck.i realised with time that i really wouldnt enjoy internal med and im persuing it only cause i would like to settle in the U.S..a lot of us indians here are english bred and live an evolved lifestyle here.most take up engineering and end up in some or the other venture in the u.s. Im one of those scarce educated nd literate people in india who took up medicine with an intent to practice in the U.S. Wich is the hardest persuit.i havnt finished my internship yet.im willing to give it approx 6 months to do electives and gather LORs..i'd like to know what are my chances of getting matched.can i be looking at good programs? Where do u think i could do electives in psychiatry?right now what i have to offer is good step scores and proficient english.i speak american english perfectly(thanx to a lot t.v. Shows,movies,nat geo,youtube,american friends in india etc.) and can connect with americans pretty well.before joining medicine i studied computer engineering in the u.s. For a semester(long story short,parents put me into medicine here forcibly)..there's no other place i'd wanna live my life but the U.S..please suggest how i can proceed.if the possibility of matching into a GOOD psychiatry program r minimal after i do electives than i would rather settle for internal med.i'l be very greatful for ur guidance.

well done on getting solid scores on your board exams. However you almost certainly don't speak american english perfectly. In this little text it is quite clear you are indian - for example you use phrases like "kindly take a little time" which tends to be indian english as well as talking about the"mles" which is another phrase used by Indians, it would be very unusual for anyone else to use this phrase. Your spelling is also quite poor. for example "persuit", "greatful" and so on. Further it's not really acceptable on these forums to use text speak like "ur" which you tend to see Indians doing. I am mentioning this to highlight that your English is not as good as you seem to think along with awareness of particular cultural nuances. The main reason why psych is a little more competitive than IM for IMGs is because command of the language is much more important in psychiatry. you also don't have any psychiatry medical student electives in the US, or psychiatric training in India. You also haven't mentioned any publications in psychiatry. You never mentioned your immigration status or what visa you are looking for. These factors, but primarily your written (and presumably) spoken english will be barriers for you.

I would suggest working on your english. Also I'm not sure what you mean by "good programs". I think there are several good programs that might be open to considering you. Don't wait too long of course because the longer out of medical school you are the more disadvantaged (unless you have for example been doing psychiatry). But the IMGs I know from India who have been successful here have had publications, done US electives or completed psychiatric training in India (or obtained MRCPsych in the UK), and have strong quality of written and spoken english communication. You board scores are helpful but they are not enough to get your foot in the door at the more competitive programs.

 

[shan564]

well done on getting solid scores on your board exams. However you almost certainly don't speak american english perfectly. In this little text it is quite clear you are indian - for example you use phrases like "kindly take a little time" which tends to be indian english as well as talking about the"mles" which is another phrase used by Indians, it would be very unusual for anyone else to use this phrase. Your spelling is also quite poor. for example "persuit", "greatful" and so on. Further it's not really acceptable on these forums to use text speak like "ur" which you tend to see Indians doing. I am mentioning this to highlight that your English is not as good as you seem to think along with awareness of particular cultural nuances. The main reason why psych is a little more competitive than IM for IMGs is because command of the language is much more important in psychiatry. you also don't have any psychiatry medical student electives in the US, or psychiatric training in India. You also haven't mentioned any publications in psychiatry. You never mentioned your immigration status or what visa you are looking for. These factors, but primarily your written (and presumably) spoken english will be barriers for you.

I would suggest working on your english. Also I'm not sure what you mean by "good programs". I think there are several good programs that might be open to considering you. Don't wait too long of course because the longer out of medical school you are the more disadvantaged (unless you have for example been doing psychiatry). But the IMGs I know from India who have been successful here have had publications, done US electives or completed psychiatric training in India (or obtained MRCPsych in the UK), and have strong quality of written and spoken english communication. You board scores are helpful but they are not enough to get your foot in the door at the more competitive programs.

Yeah, I was thinking about pointing out the language thing too, but I didn't mention it because I'm South Asian myself and I'm also notorious for being a grammar Nazi, so I thought that I might be a bit hypersensitive to the issue.

 

[EVOLVED9]

Don't mean to be out of line or rude in any manner:"Kindly take the time to...":that's being polite."ur","mles","greatful":i've read and heard a lot worse from americans in forums:hence being a little casual.the rest of my conversation:just being professional.my immigration status:None.had an i20 for which term has run out.mum's a citizen of the u.s.,was on the panel of the american diabetes association for 15 years.i've taken the SAT exam as a 16 yr old nd levelled it 2400/2400 to secure a full paid scholarship into THE GEORGIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY for computer engineering,so i donot think i have any problem when it comes to being efficient in english.you're only trying to help,so again i'm greatfull.i don't blame you for your perspective,indians can sound pretty annoying trying to emulate american english

 

[clausewitz2]

Don't mean to be out of line or rude in any manner:"Kindly take the time to...":that's being polite."ur","mles","greatful":i've read and heard a lot worse from americans in forums:hence being a little casual.the rest of my conversation:just being professional.my immigration status:None.had an i20 for which term has run out.mum's a citizen of the u.s.,was on the panel of the american diabetes association for 15 years.i've taken the SAT exam as a 16 yr old nd levelled it 2400/2400 to secure a full paid scholarship into THE GEORGIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY for computer engineering,so i donot think i have any problem when it comes to being efficient in english.you're only trying to help,so again i'm greatfull.i don't blame you for your perspective,indians can sound pretty annoying trying to emulate american english

Not a matter of efficiency, it is a matter of sounding like a native or fluent speaker. At present your postings suggest either A) a non-native speaker who is still a bit shaky on some finer points or b) someone who is mildly dyslexic. Neither of those are bad or inferior persons to be, but the perception will put you at a disadvantage.

As a side note, literally anyone associated with the university you claim to have gotten a full ride at would refer to it pretty exclusively as Georgia Tech, as would almost any other American. I take it from this that you never actually attended the school in question.

 

[shan564]

Don't mean to be out of line or rude in any manner:"Kindly take the time to...":that's being polite."ur","mles","greatful":i've read and heard a lot worse from americans in forums:hence being a little casual.

You may see a lot of Americans type like that on forums, but most of those people didn't go to medical school. It's not that you're saying anything wrong, just that you're using Indian English and spelling things incorrectly, which will be the biggest thing getting in your way of getting into a "top" psychiatry program. "Kindly take time to" is polite in Indian English, but it's a bit unusual in American English. It's not that your English is clearly bad, it's just a bit ironic that you'd write a post about how great your English is and demonstrate poor English/writing skills in the post itself.

You may say that you've seen others do the same things on forums, but when we see somebody doing that on this forum, we all think "well, this person needs to work on his/her English/writing." Again, you'll see it on other forums, but this is a forum that is composed primarily of professionals in the US.

I'm not the least bit annoyed by an Indian trying to emulate American English, but I think we were all just noticing the fact that you seem to be overconfident in your English skills. And you should note that 3 different people have made the same comment, so you should consider it to have some weight, since we are types of people who will be evaluating your application.

One annoying thing about poor grammar in these forums is the fact that it's hard to read. Capitalize the first letter of your sentences, put spaces between punctuation, spell things correctly, etc... not just for the purpose of proving that you can do it, but because it's more considerate to the people who will be reading it. It may sound pedantic, but that's why grammatical standards exist... it's much easier to read things that are well-written. Note that while you didn't have the courtesy to use proper grammar/syntax/punctuation/spelling in your initial post, all of the responses have been well-written because that's the professional and courteous thing to do.

Again, I recognize that this is a cultural difference. In American culture, this is considered to be common courtesy. In South Asian culture, ignoring grammar is considered to be more "casual" and still appropriate. Because I grew up in America, I always find it very annoying when I have text conversations with my cousins in Pakistan, but I don't say anything about it because that's the culture there. I also don't say anything to most of the Pakistanis/Indians who come here and do the same thing on SDN. But you should recognize that this is based on a cultural difference in how you speak, instead of trying to justify it by saying that you got a scholarship to Georgia Tech and did well on your SAT. We're doctors - most of us did well on the SAT and got scholarships for undergrad, but the SAT says more about your vocabulary and your reasoning skills than it says about your oral/written communication skills.

 

[EVOLVED9]

You may see a lot of Americans type like that on forums, but most of those people didn't go to medical school. It's not that you're saying anything wrong, just that you're using Indian English and spelling things incorrectly, which will be the biggest thing getting in your way of getting into a "top" psychiatry program. "Kindly take time to" is polite in Indian English, but it's a bit unusual in American English. It's not that your English is clearly bad, it's just a bit ironic that you'd write a post about how great your English is and demonstrate poor English/writing skills in the post itself.

You may say that you've seen others do the same things on forums, but when we see somebody doing that on this forum, we all think "well, this person needs to work on his/her English/writing." Again, you'll see it on other forums, but this is a forum that is composed primarily of professionals in the US.

I'm not the least bit annoyed by an Indian trying to emulate American English, but I think we were all just noticing the fact that you seem to be overconfident in your English skills. And you should note that 3 different people have made the same comment, so you should consider it to have some weight, since we are types of people who will be evaluating your application.

One annoying thing about poor grammar in these forums is the fact that it's hard to read. Capitalize the first letter of your sentences, put spaces between punctuation, spell things correctly, etc... not just for the purpose of proving that you can do it, but because it's more considerate to the people who will be reading it. It may sound pedantic, but that's why grammatical standards exist... it's much easier to read things that are well-written. Note that while you didn't have the courtesy to use proper grammar/syntax/punctuation/spelling in your initial post, all of the responses have been well-written because that's the professional and courteous thing to do.

Again, I recognize that this is a cultural difference. In American culture, this is considered to be common courtesy. In South Asian culture, ignoring grammar is considered to be more "casual" and still appropriate. Because I grew up in America, I always find it very annoying when I have text conversations with my cousins in Pakistan, but I don't say anything about it because that's the culture there. I also don't say anything to most of the Pakistanis/Indians who come here and do the same thing on SDN. But you should recognize that this is based on a cultural difference in how you speak, instead of trying to justify it by saying that you got a scholarship to Georgia Tech and did well on your SAT. We're doctors - most of us did well on the SAT and got scholarships for undergrad, but the SAT says more about your vocabulary and your reasoning skills than it says about your oral/written communication skills.

Not a matter of efficiency, it is a matter of sounding like a native or fluent speaker. At present your postings suggest either A) a non-native speaker who is still a bit shaky on some finer points or b) someone who is mildly dyslexic. Neither of those are bad or inferior persons to be, but the perception will put you at a disadvantage.

As a side note, literally anyone associated with the university you claim to have gotten a full ride at would refer to it pretty exclusively as Georgia Tech, as would almost any other American. I take it from this that you never actually attended the school in question.

On one hand you guys say

You may see a lot of Americans type like that on forums, but most of those people didn't go to medical school. It's not that you're saying anything wrong, just that you're using Indian English and spelling things incorrectly, which will be the biggest thing getting in your way of getting into a "top" psychiatry program. "Kindly take time to" is polite in Indian English, but it's a bit unusual in American English. It's not that your English is clearly bad, it's just a bit ironic that you'd write a post about how great your English is and demonstrate poor English/writing skills in the post itself.

You may say that you've seen others do the same things on forums, but when we see somebody doing that on this forum, we all think "well, this person needs to work on his/her English/writing." Again, you'll see it on other forums, but this is a forum that is composed primarily of professionals in the US.

I'm not the least bit annoyed by an Indian trying to emulate American English, but I think we were all just noticing the fact that you seem to be overconfident in your English skills. And you should note that 3 different people have made the same comment, so you should consider it to have some weight, since we are types of people who will be evaluating your application.

One annoying thing about poor grammar in these forums is the fact that it's hard to read. Capitalize the first letter of your sentences, put spaces between punctuation, spell things correctly, etc... not just for the purpose of proving that you can do it, but because it's more considerate to the people who will be reading it. It may sound pedantic, but that's why grammatical standards exist... it's much easier to read things that are well-written. Note that while you didn't have the courtesy to use proper grammar/syntax/punctuation/spelling in your initial post, all of the responses have been well-written because that's the professional and courteous thing to do.

Again, I recognize that this is a cultural difference. In American culture, this is considered to be common courtesy. In South Asian culture, ignoring grammar is considered to be more "casual" and still appropriate. Because I grew up in America, I always find it very annoying when I have text conversations with my cousins in Pakistan, but I don't say anything about it because that's the culture there. I also don't say anything to most of the Pakistanis/Indians who come here and do the same thing on SDN. But you should recognize that this is based on a cultural difference in how you speak, instead of trying to justify it by saying that you got a scholarship to Georgia Tech and did well on your SAT. We're doctors - most of us did well on the SAT and got scholarships for undergrad, but the SAT says more about your vocabulary and your reasoning skills than it says about your oral/written communication skills.

I absolutely agree with the notion that one should be punctual and considerate when communicating through text and have personally always felt teased myself when that's not been observed by people,however with all do respect i don't see the need for you to pick out a few grammatical errors and emphasize on them to a point that it feels like i'm being mocked.I never hinted that my english is "great",i merely said that i'm efficient enough use it as my primary language.From what i've come across in SDN forums,it seemed like everyone was commenting with casual words and casual grammar,hence i saw it fit to be a LITTLE casual too.I've HARDLY come across anyone who's maintained any sense of grammatical caution in all the threads and forums i've read,and a lot of people,infact majority of them are doctors,some who are well into residency.I've also come across some veterans using foul words,(one particular thread caught me by surprise,in which all residents were arguing using indecent words all along the thread)and here the one indian guy who says his english is good enough is being schooled for a little casual approach.If i were to be writing a formal document of any sort,it's obvious i wouldn't take anything for granted.
Also i disagree that this is a cultural trend.This is a personal quality which varies from one person to another.Educated people observe punctuality in grammar WHERE REQUIRED.Now we've gone from talking about psychiatry residency to grammar to cultural trends.For a moment i felt like i'm in court(just sportive humour).I suggest we donot prolong this further.No disrespect intended in any manner.

 

[EVOLVED9]

Not a matter of efficiency, it is a matter of sounding like a native or fluent speaker. At present your postings suggest either A) a non-native speaker who is still a bit shaky on some finer points or b) someone who is mildly dyslexic. Neither of those are bad or inferior persons to be, but the perception will put you at a disadvantage.

As a side note, literally anyone associated with the university you claim to have gotten a full ride at would refer to it pretty exclusively as Georgia Tech, as would almost any other American. I take it from this that you never actually attended the school in question.

The last reply got posted by accident.I din't think it would be fair to assume everybody is familiar with the institution to call it 'Georgia Tech'.It's like assuming everybody who's not a medical student to understand 'gas' as a referal to anesthesiology.Please don't come out of the blue and call a genuine person a liar without knowing him one bit.You're depriving me of a sense of pride of my life's biggest accoplishment so far.
Side note:I've actually dignified this with a proper response to be "courteous" as EVERYBODY else in this forum.Now lets stick to what this forum is actually meant for.No disrespect intended to you either.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

...

As a side note, literally anyone associated with the university you claim to have gotten a full ride at would refer to it pretty exclusively as Georgia Tech, as would almost any other American. I take it from this that you never actually attended the school in question.

C'mon, he wasn't claiming he got a full ride athletic scholarship...which is really all "any other American" knows about THE Georgia Institute of Technology!

 

[SmallBird]

Hey there splik.kindly take a little time to give me your guidance and honest opinion for my query.i'm a med grad student from india.i desire to persue residency in psychiatry in the united states.initially when i began preparing for the mles i had internal medicine in mind,cause that's the field into which most indian grads match into.ive secured 242 on step 1 nd 256 on step 2 ck.i realised with time that i really wouldnt enjoy internal med and im persuing it only cause i would like to settle in the U.S..a lot of us indians here are english bred and live an evolved lifestyle here.most take up engineering and end up in some or the other venture in the u.s. Im one of those scarce educated nd literate people in india who took up medicine with an intent to practice in the U.S. Wich is the hardest persuit.i havnt finished my internship yet.im willing to give it approx 6 months to do electives and gather LORs..i'd like to know what are my chances of getting matched.can i be looking at good programs? Where do u think i could do electives in psychiatry?right now what i have to offer is good step scores and proficient english.i speak american english perfectly(thanx to a lot t.v. Shows,movies,nat geo,youtube,american friends in india etc.) and can connect with americans pretty well.before joining medicine i studied computer engineering in the u.s. For a semester(long story short,parents put me into medicine here forcibly)..there's no other place i'd wanna live my life but the U.S..please suggest how i can proceed.if the possibility of matching into a GOOD psychiatry program r minimal after i do electives than i would rather settle for internal med.i'l be very greatful for ur guidance.

Well, since you asked us to stick to the topic, I will offer my opinion - your scores are excellent, and as others have highlighted, good enough for any program. Another factor that may offer a substantial boost would be a publication in psychiatry. But the two most important things, to my mind anyway are a) What has been highlighted, whether or not you agree and b) Being able to substantiate a commitment to psychiatry. Although I don't have an opinion on your thoughts that you would settle for Internal Medicine if it would increase your chances of matching in the US, it highlights the particular need for you to find some way to convince programs that you live and breathe psychiatry - electives, publications, excellent performances on rotations, ad letters from psychiatrists are crucial to this end.

 

[EVOLVED9]

Well, since you asked us to stick to the topic, I will offer my opinion - your scores are excellent, and as others have highlighted, good enough for any program. Another factor that may offer a substantial boost would be a publication in psychiatry. But the two most important things, to my mind anyway are a) What has been highlighted, whether or not you agree and b) Being able to substantiate a commitment to psychiatry. Although I don't have an opinion on your thoughts that you would settle for Internal Medicine if it would increase your chances of matching in the US, it highlights the particular need for you to find some way to convince programs that you live and breathe psychiatry - electives, publications, excellent performances on rotations, ad letters from psychiatrists are crucial to this end.

Thankyou.I hope nobody found my statements to be in-appropriate,if so please pardon me.I have just another query:After i do a couple of electives and am able to secure L.O.R.s,will my scores help me to get into a better psychiatry residency program,or will they not make much of a difference?Are the best programs only reserved for american graduates?

 

[downwithDTB]

Perhaps you should define what you mean by "the best" programs.

Generally, across all specialties, foriegn grads rarely match into "the best" 10 or so programs unless they have legitimate research prowess (eg first author papers in > 10-15 impact factor journals)/some sort of established career (professor at highly regarded university)/PhD from very top us university (or maybe Oxford/Cambridge)/etc.

Perhaps looking at the list of residents at programs of interest and seeing how many are foreign grads and doing a pubmed search on them would give you a better picture of the places you're likely to get into. Youd probably be competitive for any program that takes a few foreign grads who don't have awesome pubs. That way you can decide what you consider "top" and if youre competitive. I doubt those board scores would hold you back from any place, but I'm sure there are enough people who have come before you with as good scores that you won't break any molds.

 

[shan564]

Thankyou.I hope nobody found my statements to be in-appropriate,if so please pardon me.I have just another query:After i do a couple of electives and am able to secure L.O.R.s,will my scores help me to get into a better psychiatry residency program,or will they not make much of a difference?Are the best programs only reserved for american graduates?

There are probably 5 "top-tier" programs that won't take you just because you're an IMG - MGH, Columbia, Cornell, UCLA, and UCSF. Maybe Stanford and the other Harvard programs. Yale will consider you, as is evidenced by the fact that one of the people who replied to your question is an IMG who matched at Yale. It's hard to quantify which are the "top" programs, but if you look at programs affiliated with "top 10" med schools (which is not a reliable metric, but there is no reliable metric), I know IMGs who have matched at Penn, WashU, Yale, Duke, Michigan, and UWashington.

 

[Jorje286]

Generally, across all specialties, foriegn grads rarely match into "the best" 10 or so programs unless they have legitimate research prowess (eg first author papers in > 10-15 impact factor journals)/some sort of established career (professor at highly regarded university)/PhD from very top us university (or maybe Oxford/Cambridge)/etc.

.

I disagree. The bar is not that high in psych. A solid publication record (IF 3-8) will make you a very attractive applicant for academic places that take IMGs, including "top 10" programs (Yale, UCSD, Mount Sinai..etc) as well as plenty of very strong places with research tracks. It's true though, research will help set you apart from the sea of IMGs and the pool of applicants you will be competing with is much smaller. For the ones who aren't open to taking IMGs (MGH, UCLA...etc), I'm guessing you need to add contacts or better, working there.

 

[EVOLVED9]

I disagree. The bar is not that high in psych. A solid publication record (IF 3-8) will make you a very attractive applicant for academic places that take IMGs, including "top 10" programs (Yale, UCSD, Mount Sinai..etc) as well as plenty of very strong places with research tracks. It's true though, research will help set you apart from the sea of IMGs and the pool of applicants you will be competing with is much smaller. For the ones who aren't open to taking IMGs (MGH, UCLA...etc), I'm guessing you need to add contacts or better, working there.

Appreciate it

 

[Jorje286]

Appreciate it

I just would like to point out that if you have no interest in research, then this could be a disastrous route. You need at the very least, if you're lucky, 2/3 years to publish in basic/translational research especially if you don't have a strong background. And by then, residency will likely become much more competitive and years away from the clinic will start counting against you. If your heart is not set out on hardcore research then I don't think it's worth it.

 

[shan564]

If you match at any of the 6 programs I mentioned in my previous post (each of which have been known to take IMGs with good scores without requiring a strong research background), doors will be open for any job or any fellowship you want.

 

[EVOLVED9]

I just would like to point out that if you have no interest in research, then this could be a disastrous route. You need at the very least, if you're lucky, 2/3 years to publish in basic/translational research especially if you don't have a strong background. And by then, residency will likely become much more competitive and years away from the clinic will start counting against you. If your heart is not set out on hardcore research then I don't think it's worth it.

2/3 years! Is not a time span i'm willing to spend on research under present circumstances.I do wish to go into research eventually,but not at the risk of compramising my ambition to get into psychiatry residency,for the time being.I've selectively reached out to institutes i have been told have a reputation of accepting I.M.Gs for electives.Where i am presently in my persuit,i should be able to apply just within the days precending September 15,2016(as suggested by everyone).I wouldn't have imagined 2-3 years to pull off a decent publication,i'l take your word for it.

 

[EVOLVED9]

If you match at any of the 6 programs I mentioned in my previous post (each of which have been known to take IMGs with good scores without requiring a strong research background), doors will be open for any job or any fellowship you want.

That sounds VERY relieving.

 

[splik]

I disagree. The bar is not that high in psych. A solid publication record (IF 3-8) will make you a very attractive applicant for academic places that take IMGs, including "top 10" programs (Yale, UCSD, Mount Sinai..etc) as well as plenty of very strong places with research tracks. It's true though, research will help set you apart from the sea of IMGs and the pool of applicants you will be competing with is much smaller. For the ones who aren't open to taking IMGs (MGH, UCLA...etc), I'm guessing you need to add contacts or better, working there.

since when were UCSD or Mt Sinai considered "top 10" programs?! btw the top programs are more likely to take stellar IMGs that some less well branded programs. There are several IMGs at UCLA and there have been a number at MGH but of course we're talking a) connections and b) the very best

 

[Jorje286]

2/3 years! Is not a time span i'm willing to spend on research under present circumstances.I do wish to go into research eventually,but not at the risk of compramising my ambition to get into psychiatry residency,for the time being.I've selectively reached out to institutes i have been told have a reputation of accepting I.M.Gs for electives.Where i am presently in my persuit,i should be able to apply just within the days precending September 15,2016(as suggested by everyone).I wouldn't have imagined 2-3 years to pull off a decent publication,i'l take your word for it.

You can publish in less, but it's most likely going to be in more clinical type of research and not basic science. It will definitely help your application and shows commitment, but it is not the type of research that will set you apart for the research track.

since when were UCSD or Mt Sinai considered "top 10" programs?! btw the top programs are more likely to take stellar IMGs that some less well branded programs. There are several IMGs at UCLA and there have been a number at MGH but of course we're talking a) connections and b) the very best

Yes you're right, though Yale would still definitely count as top 10. My point in general though is that basic science publications will make you an attractive applicant to the top places even if you publish in solid specialized journal and not PNAS, Science or Nature.

 

[Rogue Penguin]

since when were UCSD or Mt Sinai considered "top 10" programs?! btw the top programs are more likely to take stellar IMGs that some less well branded programs. There are several IMGs at UCLA and there have been a number at MGH but of course we're talking a) connections and b) the very best

I was under the impression that Mt. Sinai would be considered as at least in contention for the top ten. To me the obvious "top" programs are Columbia, MGH, Cornell, UCLA, UCSF, Yale, UPMC... And then I'm not sure. Duke? Penn? Longwood? Sinai? Stanford? UNC? UWash? Depends on what you're looking for? Obviously there's no clear ranking system. I'm basing this off of different "official" rankings I've seen and here-say. I'm more and more confused about how anyone could really know any of it is true for sure. We all only do one residency. Sorry for tangent.

 

[slappy]

I was under the impression that Mt. Sinai would be considered as at least in contention for the top ten. To me the obvious "top" programs are Columbia, MGH, Cornell, UCLA, UCSF, Yale, UPMC... And then I'm not sure. Duke? Penn? Longwood? Sinai? Stanford? UNC? UWash? Depends on what you're looking for? Obviously there's no clear ranking system. I'm basing this off of different "official" rankings I've seen and here-say. I'm more and more confused about how anyone could really know any of it is true for sure. We all only do one residency. Sorry for tangent.

There is no official ranking (obviously), but most of us (at least I) wouldn't consider Mt. Sinai, Yale, Duke, or even Stanford out of the ones you'd mentioned in the top ten programs to train at in this country. It would probably consist of MGH/McLean, Columbia, Cornell, UCLA-NPI, UCSF, Longwood, Cambridge, NYU, Penn, UPMC, and also perhaps Northwestern, UW-Seattle, MUSC, UNC, Michigan, and UCSD.