Fear of loans!!! Words of advice, please!

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pika8

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Hi everyone,

I am very excited about being admitted to vet school. However, the process of becoming ~ 200,000 in debt really is taking a toll on me. I was wondering if any of you had words of advice about how to deal with being in debt. Or if you could reassure me that it is possible to pay off the loans and live a (somewhat) normal life. How are you all dealing with the stress of entering into debt?

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To be honest, I just don't think about it -- I'm already 80K in the hole because of Cornell, and MN is my #1 choice, i.e. the second most expensive OOS school in the nation. Keep thinking it's an investment in your education:) I know that none of that was helpful, but thought that maybe my only undergrad debt would make it seem less daunting?


PS: I know there was an entire thread somewhere about taking loans out responsibly from someone visiting from the MD board -- I am responsible. I just happen to think that my happiness at a program is more important than monetary consequences.
 
Your going to be happy as a vet and money isn't everything. your not in this alone and i am sure we will all be fine.
 
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To be honest, I just don't think about it -- I'm already 80K in the hole because of Cornell, and MN is my #1 choice, i.e. the second most expensive OOS school in the nation. Keep thinking it's an investment in your education:) I know that none of that was helpful, but thought that maybe my only undergrad debt would make it seem less daunting?


PS: I know there was an entire thread somewhere about taking loans out responsibly from someone visiting from the MD board -- I am responsible. I just happen to think that my happiness at a program is more important than monetary consequences.

Your looking at coming out of school with a loan payment equal to a home mortgage payment (about 1500per month). This probably wont help your decision making but you could also look at that last sentence this way...you could be happy graduating from any program and still be able to afford to have a life and the ability to live without stress once you are out practicing. Just another perspective.
 
Does anyone ever get the feeling that these numbers are so high that they don't really register any more? That a few extra thousand dollars doesn't really make that much of a difference, regardless of whether or not it is? It just seems like there's no way we can really understand how big this number is.
 
Does anyone ever get the feeling that these numbers are so high that they don't really register any more? That a few extra thousand dollars doesn't really make that much of a difference, regardless of whether or not it is? It just seems like there's no way we can really understand how big this number is.

haha... i totally feel you on that one!!! another ten grand..? sure.. why not. add it to my tab!!
 
Does anyone ever get the feeling that these numbers are so high that they don't really register any more? That a few extra thousand dollars doesn't really make that much of a difference, regardless of whether or not it is? It just seems like there's no way we can really understand how big this number is.

Yep! Exactly! This is why I got a single in college even though it was an extra $1000 a semester; this is why I took out extra loans doing my prereqs to cover my living expenses and to allow me to pay off my credit cards before heading off to vet school. I'm $65K in debt from undergrad and my #1 is Western, which, factoring in cost of living and everything, will leave me with about $240K additional debt... and I don't care, haha. I'll just keep trucking along with payments and have it automatically deducted and eventually, some golden, magical day, it will be paid off... but I'm not gonna sweat it. We're all going to be saddled with ridiculous amounts of debt, why not join the club? All the cool kids are doing it! :laugh:
 
What bothers me more than the actual debt is the amount of interest that has to be paid...Tufts had a little presentation about it, and to pay off the average amount of loans (127K) in 30 years, you would be paying nearly DOUBLE that amount due to interest.
 
I'm just going to agree wholeheartedly with the above feelings. I can't even FATHOM having a mortgage payment, so ... numbers mean nothing. I have read somewhere that if you die, your loans are foregiven though. Something to look forward to :) I mean, I know that tuition at UW is 16K for in state, and UMN is 39K for OOS, but Cornell is 35K (for undergrad), so what's another 4K a year for another four years?

Pretty much athenaparthenos took the words out of my mouth.

PS: My parent's mortgage is in the 400K region, so my measly 250K education debt is nothing ... and I didn't really want to own a home anyway. :)
 
What bothers me more than the actual debt is the amount of interest that has to be paid...Tufts had a little presentation about it, and to pay off the average amount of loans (127K) in 30 years, you would be paying nearly DOUBLE that amount due to interest.

That is why its important to live like a poor college student the first few years you are out of school and pay back as much of the loan principal as you can. Will save you a significant amount in the long run.
 
That is why its important to live like a poor college student the first few years you are out of school

Just thought I'd bold that one as a reminder to myself -- but unfortunately for me, it'll be the first few decades .... :D
 
That is why its important to live like a poor college student the first few years you are out of school and pay back as much of the loan principal as you can. Will save you a significant amount in the long run.

I figured that...but it still sucks. I could imagine living cheap for a few years after school, but after awhile it just gets tiring!
 
okay...so this is my thinking and it might be wrong...but on average the new grad around here (indiana) makes about 60,000 their first year out, which is 5,000 per month without taxes being taken out.

At Iowa, when interviewing, they gave us this nifty little paper that said what the payments would be like, if you choose to take a 200,000 loan then the payment would be 2000 a month. If you had a 100,000 loan, then it was only 1,000 a month.

So to me, if I go out of state and rack up the 200,000 then my taken home pay without takes taken out and minus the loan, would be about 3000 a month. That is pretty decent living money to me. It just means I have to forgo the brand new car and the luxury apartment/house for a couple of years.

Yes, I agree that it is a big number, but I believe that it will be OKAY!! :D
 
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It is a scary number, but is manageable if you have the right attitude. And actually, the right attitude is to not take any more than you need because it adds up fast--it's not the initial amount borrowed as much as the interest accruing. In grad school I received a check for $300 from my school randomly. Turns out it was the overpayment of my loan that the school didn't need for tuition. After figuring that out, I went down to the financial aid office to have them return it to the lender. The guy there was like, "What, you don't want $300?!" Of course I would want $300. But that's not just $300. That's $300 + 6.8% interest until I pay it back. And why would I take loan money I didn't need? Every little bit helps.

If you're really dedicated to paying it back, it can be done faster than your scheduled loan period. Which is advisable. I managed to pay off half of my grad loans in less than one year by living cheaply and putting everything left over from my paycheck each month towards my loans (on a nice salary, of course). It is a better investment than putting it in the bank (assuming one has some emergency cushion already), since the bank was giving me 4-5% interest, while my loan was costing my 6.8% every month.

And not that this will really be helpful to many people coming out of vet school, but maybe those taking internships and residencies...there are tax breaks you can get on interest paid on student loans. But they're better for people earning less, so they will benefit us more early on (if at all). For 2007, if you are single and your AGI is less than $55K, you could take a deduction of all student loan interest paid during the year up to $2,500. If your AGI is between $55K and $70K, you have to use some formula which only allows you to take some piddling amount of deduction. And over $70K you don't get any deduction.
 
Debt is relative to income. Stop sweating it!

If you make $100k a year and pay 20k a year in debt to your loans, you are STILL at a tidy 50k net at least.

If you make $25k a year and pay car payments of $2400 you are at 10% of gross. If you make $100k a year and pay that same amount, you are at 2.4% of gross.

Debt impact on your financial picture is relative to income.

The neuro guys whine about insurance of $50,000 a year, but get paid $1million in many cases. The single mother out there paying $2400 a year in auto insurance with a minimal paying job has a bigger dent in her paycheck percentage wise than the whiney doctor.

Let's not be like human doctors and complain about the monthly cost, but look at big pictures and consider what you contribute to people and animals, what you gain yourself, what you will earn over a lifetime and the overall percentage hit on your yearly income.

I am proud to have the opportunity to TRY to serve people and their animals. Debt is just part of the process to get there and overall is a minimal number all things considered.
 
A specialist I work with put it in perspective when she told me that, the way she sees it, the first day or two of the month she is working to strictly pay off her loans, the rest of the month she is "debt-free." Basically, she doesn't figure that X amount into what she earns each month so it's as if it was never there to begin with. To me, if you approach it that way, it doesn't seem quite so bad.
 
I think you guys may be thinking about this incorrectly - it makes sense to pay back your loans as quickly as you can but only if you think that the interest rate they are charging you is higher than what you can make investing your money elsewhere. I'm no expert - but the Fed has been dropping interest rates so I think that people starting school this upcoming year may actually be in for a pleasant surprise for the interest rates that are available to them on their loans. Also people with existing loans might want to consider consolidating. Lets say they are 6% (but they may be lower) - if you think that you can do better investing your money in a diversified portfolio over a long period of time (and it will take you a long time to pay back you loans) than you should do that instead of paying extra on your loans. I think that over the long run 8% is a reasonable amount to expect from a diversified portfolio. So even though I could pay back my loans sooner - I used that money to invest in the market (not such a good move right now, but over the long run I have faith that it will work out).
 
I think you guys may be thinking about this incorrectly - it makes sense to pay back your loans as quickly as you can but only if you think that the interest rate they are charging you is higher than what you can make investing your money elsewhere. I'm no expert - but the Fed has been dropping interest rates so I think that people starting school this upcoming year may actually be in for a pleasant surprise for the interest rates that are available to them on their loans. Also people with existing loans might want to consider consolidating. Lets say they are 6% (but they may be lower) - if you think that you can do better investing your money in a diversified portfolio over a long period of time (and it will take you a long time to pay back you loans) than you should do that instead of paying extra on your loans. I think that over the long run 8% is a reasonable amount to expect from a diversified portfolio. So even though I could pay back my loans sooner - I used that money to invest in the market (not such a good move right now, but over the long run I have faith that it will work out).

Actually, I did point that out in my above post. So I agree with the way you're thinking about it. However, I stated that for my graduate school loans the calculation went the other way since current return on investments I would be making (just a typical savings account, since I couldn't tie up money in a longer term investment right now) has been more like 4-5% (and right now it's more like 3.5%). So I chose to pay off more aggresively since that was more beneficial for me.
 
I hear students and future students stating that they don't care about the loans which is exactly the way I felt when I was in school. I graduated with 180K in debt. I think this amt is the high end of what is doable with the salaries being paid by employers. Graduating with over 200k in debt will make it very difficult to live. You will not be able to own a house!! You will struggle. Heres the other wonderful news... Initially your loan interest will be deductable but once you start making a decent salary, say >75000k, guess what.. you can't deduct that interest so not only will you be paying greater than 15k in taxes, that 8k in student interest that you pay will do you no good when tax time comes.. Oh you won't be able to afford that house, so you won't get any tax breaks there. Most of the time you will pay more interest in student loans than in your house loan.
What to do.. You need to write your local representative man/woman to change those tax laws. There is a bill on the house of rep. floor entitled H.R. 1407, the Higher Education Affordability and Equity Act of 2007. which helps to change this tax law.
 
What bothers me more than the actual debt is the amount of interest that has to be paid...Tufts had a little presentation about it, and to pay off the average amount of loans (127K) in 30 years, you would be paying nearly DOUBLE that amount due to interest.


Actually, I recommend a different mindset from the folks that want to pay off their loans as aggressively as possible and as soon as possible, eating ramen noodles for 5-10 years if they have to. While a 30 year repayment term will have you paying much more interest in total than a 10-15 year term, you also have to account for 2-3% annual inflation over those years. In other words, your payments in later years will feel and *be* much lower than in earlier years, not just because you'll be making more money, but also because the dollar will be worth much less.

For example, try using the Graduated Repayment calculator on Finaid.org: http://www.finaid.org/calculators/gradrepay.phtml

On a 200k loan at 6.8%, and assuming a 4% discount rate (which is low, and factors both inflation and the opportunity to earn interest/equity now on money that you'd otherwise be paying your loans with), the Net Present Value (NPV) for the total amount paid under a 10 year term is 228k (payments of $2300 monthly), under a 30 year graduated term is 270k (payments from $1150-$1650 monthly), and under a regular 30 year term is 275k (payments of $1300 monthly).

Essentially, if you hurry up and starve yourself to pay your loans in ten years, you're really getting very little real financial benefit from it. If you use the default NPV discount rate of 5.8% versus 4%, the longer term plans come out even better. Just something to keep in mind.
 
I love how everyone's financial know-how is how I'm going to explain an extra 20k a year to my mom -- "but i swear, i'll be paying LESS eventually ..." :)
 
Thanks everyone!

And, woah, Tapir--are you an accountant? You have a big brain. (I always knew those amazon ungulates were smart!)
 
Just remember- interest paid on student loans is tax deductible!:D
 
An organization that may be helpful is Graduate Leverage (www.graduateleverage.com). They've saved tons of people here a whole lot of money on their loans. The company was originally started as a project for MBA candidates at Harvard Business School and then became an actual company!

I don't purport to understand everything they do, but consultations are free and usually they wind up saving you a bunch of money. They negotiate group discounts for loans through lenders like Sallie Mae....
 
Just remember- interest paid on student loans is tax deductible!:D

Not necessarily. See my post above about this. And the "adjusted" amount of interest you can deduct on your taxes is really low. Like, if you fall in that range of adjustment (based on your income) and you had ~$2K of interest paid over the course of the year, you could only wind up with a $200 deduction like I did this year. That's not much at all. And, there is a $2500 cap on deductions, even if you do qualify for the whole thing.

It's actually rather complicated.
 
An organization that may be helpful is Graduate Leverage (www.graduateleverage.com). They've saved tons of people here a whole lot of money on their loans. The company was originally started as a project for MBA candidates at Harvard Business School and then became an actual company!

I don't purport to understand everything they do, but consultations are free and usually they wind up saving you a bunch of money. They negotiate group discounts for loans through lenders like Sallie Mae....

Thanks for posting this Allicat, my mom had read something about this company but she couldnt remember the name for me and I tried to look it up online and couldnt find it. I just signed up for a consultation. Love ya.
 
An organization that may be helpful is Graduate Leverage
I remember there was some hoo-hah somewhere on SDN about these folks last year. Somebody really didn't like them for some reason. I forget what it is, and I'm too busy (read: lazy) to look it up myself. But, if you're considering dealing with them, you might try a search on the Financial Aid forum - or maybe even a general search of the entire forum, I couldn't swear it was in FinAid - and see what you dig up.
 
the $15,500 every single person should be contributing to their 401k starting immediately after graduating if they want to have a chance at an early retirement where maybe they can pursue veterinary interests outside of their 9-5 job.


Just because that's the maximum amount Uncle Sam says you can put in your 401K each year doesn't mean you should. Savings is great. 401K is great. But if you're putting all your savings into your 401K, you're going to have a very sad intervening 40 years as you try to pay for a house, your kids' college tuition, and all of the other lovely things in life that one needs before they turn 65.
 
I'm not trying to be condescending, but as someone who works as a financial professional, I highly suggest that you take some business and finance courses before you graduate from school.

First, of all, do me a favor and don't assume everyone on here is a young thing still in school with no idea about the world. (Not to mention some people in school have quite a bit of knowledge about the world and finances anyhow.) I graduate several years ago (several years before you did, FWIW) and have quite a bit of my own experience managing my finances and income.

The mentality you are supporting is exactly why Americans are accumulating so much debt that our economy can't even sustain itself.

Second of all, that's a gross overstatement of your point and almost off the point. I never advocated irresponsible spending or debt accumulation. I think people are accumulating so much debt because they want it all now and use credit cards irresponsibly. I mentioned buying a home (somewhere to live and get tax breaks along with it) and putting ones kids through college. Hardly the "bigger is better, buy buy buy" mentality you seem to think I'm espousing. Plus, if people put their money into savings they can access, then they won't need to use credit cards to buy things along the way. A FAR better idea than accumulating credit card debt, we can all agree on that.

If you cannot afford to max out your 401k, which is completely understandable for a large majority of the population, at the BARE minimum you should contribute enough to take full advantage of your company's 401k matching benefit.

And finally, I fully understand the benefits of investing as fully as you can into your 401K as early as possible (do it in your 20s, you'll get to financial places you'll never end up if you wait until your 30s to start, etc.). And not putting in as much money as you can to take advantage of your company's match is throwing away money...in most cases. Although to be fair I can think of two situations off the top of my head that make that idea irrelevant.

The first is where you need to be vested in your 401K for some # of years or you don't get any of your company's contribution. If you're planning on leaving before the time is out, then not contributing up to the full company match limit is NOT throwing free money away. Assuming you're still saving/investing that money, then you're still doing alright for yourself. Sure, it may not be investing the before taxes amount. But if you're going to leave the company soon, it's possible you're leaving to go do something else that will require some money in hand (like for a wild example, applying to and relocating to attend school).

The second is in a case where the company automatically puts some amount of money into your 401K regardless of whether you put any in or not (yes, there are companies like this). In a situation like that, it might not be a bad idea to look at your short and long term goals and figure out if you'd do better to invest your money (at least in part) in ways in which you can get it out in the nearer term, if needed.

All that said, I stand by my initial assessment that it doesn't matters a rat's patootie how great your retirement portfolio looks if you don't have a safety net of savings to fall back on in hard times right now. And if you don't properly allocate money into investments you can use in the nearer term (even 20 years down the road is near term when we're talking 401Ks), you'll incur all kinds of penalties by dipping into your 401K. And that would be seriously NOT smart.
 
Of course if you don't want to retire and don't mind working until you're 95 years old, then don't contribute but I'm telling you now that social security will not be able to support even 1/5 of your living expenses, let alone your medical expenses.

I am trying to go the vet route because I do actually want to go to work. I am going to be the total optimist and say that if I enjoy my job, I may not be seeking to retire early when the time comes. If I wanted to make lots of money and retire early I would have stuck with what my undergrad degree is in.

On the other hand my long term plan for after vet school is to head north of the border for the socialized health care, strong looney and delicious poutine.
 
Oh, yummy poutine! It's been so long... ::sniffle::

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Honestly, the loans scare me too. I'm going to be finishing up undergrad with quite a bit of debt. One of the reasons I would like to return to Canada to study is that as a Canadian citizen (and resident, once I take that year off), it will cost me a lot less. If I were to go into school worried about the amount of debt I will be coming out with, I would be overly stressed the entire time, and everything else would suffer as a result of it. It's not about the money.. No, of course not. Money is just one stressor that I don't do particularly well with. All the reassurances in the world mean nothing to me, if I can't see it practically happening for myself.
 
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