Federal Hiring Freeze

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WisNeuro said:
Based on the actions signed as well as previously discussed issues, I would assume the funding clawbacks will encompass far more than just DEI-related stuff. We're about to enter an unparalleled era for science denialism.
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Agreed - from what I have seen/heard, far from limited to DEI.
 
Ollie123 said:
Oh....its gonna be intense/bad. I just think the long-term intense/bad will be concentrated in select areas. The rest of us will have short-mid-term intense/bad that will eventually evolve into a couple years of frustration.

There is absolutely no way to do this sort of review at scale, so even for folks in areas entirely unrelated there are 100% going to be nonsensical things in the crossfire.

Just had my first meeting strategizing how we respond if someone asks about DEI components in our new R01 to try and avoid creating any appearance we might care about impoverished people. Fun times.🙄
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You can care about impoverished people. You just can't help them (or minorities). It's a shame Zimbardo died in October. The admin would likely grant him a few R01s to look at compliance of workers and mass imprisonment.
 
mind_over_matter277 said:
What about internship and postdoc training programs?
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My VA's training director sent out an email today indicating that our predoctoral and postdoctoral slots are exempt from the hiring/funding freeze.

Not saying things can't change but hopefully this holds up for everybody's sake.
 
I have a new appreciation for the people who devote time to creating emails from National. Even if they don't say anything relevant to me most the time, I can tell they were written with effort and some level of expertise.

I'm not usually a "decorum" kind of person, but I miss it already.
 
Shiori said:
I have a new appreciation for the people who devote time to creating emails from National. Even if they don't say anything relevant to me most the time, I can tell they were written with effort and some level of expertise.

I'm not usually a "decorum" kind of person, but I miss it already.
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At the very least, they usually don't usually involve extortion and racketeering.
 
Shiori said:
I have a new appreciation for the people who devote time to creating emails from National. Even if they don't say anything relevant to me most the time, I can tell they were written with effort and some level of expertise.

I'm not usually a "decorum" kind of person, but I miss it already.
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And they didn’t seem like the most blatant examples of phishing emails ever.
 
Freeze now officially unfrozen. Turns out doing things without considering the consequences is bad. Admittedly most people learn this in childhood, but I guess this is a start.

Now the question is how to un-**** everything that got ****ed in the last 48 hours. Meetings were cancelled, etc. I got a cryptic notice that my March study section may or may not have been cancelled. I think the January council meetings got axed which means 80 bajillion grants get pushed to the May meeting.

Can things be undone at this point? Who knows!
 
Ah yes - to clarify the above it was only a reference to the full funding freeze, not the hiring freeze
 
Ollie123 said:
Freeze now officially unfrozen. Turns out doing things without considering the consequences is bad. Admittedly most people learn this in childhood, but I guess this is a start.

Now the question is how to un-**** everything that got ****ed in the last 48 hours. Meetings were cancelled, etc. I got a cryptic notice that my March study section may or may not have been cancelled. I think the January council meetings got axed which means 80 bajillion grants get pushed to the May meeting.

Can things be undone at this point? Who knows!
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They may try to reschedule the postponed Council meetings? I'm remembering the one government shut down (don't remember the year?) that happened around Oct/Nov, which was prime study section time. Lots of study sections and other meetings got canceled, but they were all ultimately rescheduled in late Nov and Dec. It was a huge pain and inconvenience, but we didn't have to wait until the next cycle. I know there's little reason to feel optimistic these days, but perhaps there's a tiny bit of hope that they can get those Council meetings (and also study sections) rescheduled in the near future?
 
Ollie123 said:
Freeze now officially unfrozen. Turns out doing things without considering the consequences is bad. Admittedly most people learn this in childhood, but I guess this is a start.

Now the question is how to un-**** everything that got ****ed in the last 48 hours. Meetings were cancelled, etc. I got a cryptic notice that my March study section may or may not have been cancelled. I think the January council meetings got axed which means 80 bajillion grants get pushed to the May meeting.

Can things be undone at this point? Who knows!
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The WH is now walking the un-freeze back, btw.
 
futureapppsy2 said:
The WH is now walking the un-freeze back, btw.
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My read is that they are still planning to conduct reviews to de-fund things that aren't in line with their priorities, but are not freezing literally all of federal funding while they do the review (which would realistically take months even at a frenetic pace with a lot of half-assing?). Plus the usual Trumpian bluster/gaslighting of "It's not our fault you didn't understand." If so - while horrible, it at least means every medical school, homeless shelter, etc. in the US isn't going to have to wind down operations in the interim while this mess gets sorted out.

Did I miss something though? So much happening so quickly its certainly possible!
 
I can’t believe I’m saying this, but:

The administration’s love for Jordan Peterson might save psychologists.
 
PsyDr said:
I can’t believe I’m saying this, but:

The administration’s love for Jordan Peterson might save psychologists.
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Dr.Phil is going on these ICE raids in Chicago and not a mention. He would be sad.
 
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summerbabe said:
My VA's training director sent out an email today indicating that our predoctoral and postdoctoral slots are exempt from the hiring/funding freeze.

Not saying things can't change but hopefully this holds up for everybody's sake.
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Interns and post-docs can be hired at the VA, but they can't get diversity-related training while they're there. All these trainees will fall short of the Minnesota guidelines in neuropsychology. Regardless of subfield, these trainees will be a step behind those who attended programs that did have multicultural training.

Perhaps it's a silver lining that this is happening before rankings are due so people have the chance to avoid this... situation... while they still can. If it were me, I would expect more cluster-****ery to happen with VA training in the next 4 years or longer. It's going to be totally unpredictable, so who knows, maybe it will totally derail your training and maybe it'll blow over and not affect anything. I wouldn't risk my future on that.
 
markovnikoving said:
Interns and post-docs can be hired at the VA, but they can't get diversity-related training while they're there. All these trainees will fall short of the Minnesota guidelines in neuropsychology. Regardless of subfield, these trainees will be a step behind those who attended programs that did have multicultural training.

Perhaps it's a silver lining that this is happening before rankings are due so people have the chance to avoid this... situation... while they still can. If it were me, I would expect more cluster-****ery to happen with VA training in the next 4 years or longer. It's going to be totally unpredictable, so who knows, maybe it will totally derail your training and maybe it'll blow over and not affect anything. I wouldn't risk my future on that.
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These guidelines are not in play at the moment, they will need to meet HCG. The MNC dumpster fire has not yet been voted on, and does not even have an implementation document yet.
 
WisNeuro said:
These guidelines are not in play at the moment, they will need to meet HCG. The MNC dumpster fire has not yet been voted on, and does not even have an implementation document yet.
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Obviously the field is moving in that direction, so the fact that Minnesota isn't implemented yet is irrelevant. Diversity-related training is necessary to measure up to other training programs.
 
markovnikoving said:
Obviously the field is moving in that direction, so the fact that Minnesota isn't implemented yet is irrelevant. Diversity-related training is necessary to measure up to other training programs.
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How is it irrelevant that one not need to necessarily meet guidelines that have not yet been adopted, and may not ever be adopted?
 
WisNeuro said:
These guidelines are not in play at the moment, they will need to meet HCG. The MNC dumpster fire has not yet been voted on, and does not even have an implementation document yet.
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Fairly certain (per covnos with MNC delegates I know quite well) it was voted on and approved by the delegates about a month ago, but TBD on if neuropsychology organizations actually vote or move to adopt the MNC. This will continue to be a years-long drama no doubt… it’s strange to me that the MNC outcome isn’t yet public knowledge, but from what I’ve heard the vote was razor thin.

Regardless, I seriously doubt ABCN/ABPP would not approve board certification for someone who trained at the VA during this political dumpster fire of an era. It’s not like VA trainees will have *zero* training on diversity issues from other sources... Rather, the money that went to these talks and trainings at the VA will likely be on hold for the time being.
 
jdawg2017 said:
Fairly certain (per covnos with MNC delegates I know quite well) it was voted on and approved by the delegates about a month ago, but TBD on if neuropsychology organizations actually vote or move to adopt the MNC. This will continue to be a years-long drama no doubt… it’s strange to me that the MNC outcome isn’t yet public knowledge, but from what I’ve heard the vote was razor thin.

Regardless, I seriously doubt ABCN/ABPP would not approve board certification for someone who trained at the VA during this political dumpster fire of an era. It’s not like VA trainees will have *zero* training on diversity issues from other sources... Rather, the money that went to these talks and trainings at the VA will likely be on hold for the time being.
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Indeed, based on what I've heard/seen as well. I have my own thoughts on the matter, but yes, it's far from settled in terms of the larger field.

And I agree--I think VA sites will find ways to still have diversity-related trainings, and particularly if the sites are APPCN members, it seems likely ABCN would accept it.
 
So we just started our interviews for our forensic fellows yesterday. Had a couple via skype from bureau of prison sites. They legit looked terrified when talking about the current state of affairs. As in...they seemed as if they were scared to even mention certain words/terms for fear of being overheard saying them based on the new EO's. Howwwwww did we get to this point?
 
jdawg2017 said:
Fairly certain (per covnos with MNC delegates I know quite well) it was voted on and approved by the delegates about a month ago, but TBD on if neuropsychology organizations actually vote or move to adopt the MNC. This will continue to be a years-long drama no doubt… it’s strange to me that the MNC outcome isn’t yet public knowledge, but from what I’ve heard the vote was razor thin.

Regardless, I seriously doubt ABCN/ABPP would not approve board certification for someone who trained at the VA during this political dumpster fire of an era. It’s not like VA trainees will have *zero* training on diversity issues from other sources... Rather, the money that went to these talks and trainings at the VA will likely be on hold for the time being.
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Voted on by the delegates themselves, yes. And yes, those delegates, who were generally hand picked to be favorable to the political aims of the MNC, passed a simple majority vote, by one vote. One of the major neuropsych organizations has already essentially blasted the MNC steering committee for changing the rules and lying about the process. The MNC Sterring committee itself admitted "With the clarity of hindsight, the Steering Committee can see its missteps, erroneous assumptions, andfailures in communication. We are disappointed that many feel we fell short of our commitment to atransparent and inclusive process." Multiple delegates have mentioned that they were shutdown in discussions during the MNC process. It has been an unmitigated ****show pretty much the whole way through.

Now, I agree that ABCN will likely pass it, in some way, as they are intertwined in the process, and the president of the board has been stumping for it whole hog since the beginning. But, even before the Trump administration, it was likely to be challenged legally if adopted. Now, that would seem to be a certainty. That's where members fees will be going in the near future. Good thing they have flush reserves, at least for now.
 
WisNeuro said:
Voted on by the delegates themselves, yes. And yes, those delegates, who were generally hand picked to be favorable to the political aims of the MNC, passed a simple majority vote, by one vote. One of the major neuropsych organizations has already essentially blasted the MNC steering committee for changing the rules and lying about the process. The MNC Sterring committee itself admitted "With the clarity of hindsight, the Steering Committee can see its missteps, erroneous assumptions, andfailures in communication. We are disappointed that many feel we fell short of our commitment to atransparent and inclusive process." Multiple delegates have mentioned that they were shutdown in discussions during the MNC process. It has been an unmitigated ****show pretty much the whole way through.

Now, I agree that ABCN will likely pass it, in some way, as they are intertwined in the process, and the president of the board has been stumping for it whole hog since the beginning. But, even before the Trump administration, it was likely to be challenged legally if adopted. Now, that would seem to be a certainty. That's where members fees will be going in the near future. Good thing they have flush reserves, at least for now.
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These committees are chumps.

Remember when Reitan was physically locked out of the HCG meeting? PsyDr remembers......
 
It’s been approved for diversity training (“cultural competency”) to continue for trainees in APA accredited training programs within VA. That’s come down from multiple channels.

Training will be relatively untouched as long as all the supervisors aren’t volunteers-told to retire/get out.
 
WisNeuro said:
Voted on by the delegates themselves, yes. And yes, those delegates, who were generally hand picked to be favorable to the political aims of the MNC, passed a simple majority vote, by one vote. One of the major neuropsych organizations has already essentially blasted the MNC steering committee for changing the rules and lying about the process. The MNC Sterring committee itself admitted "With the clarity of hindsight, the Steering Committee can see its missteps, erroneous assumptions, andfailures in communication. We are disappointed that many feel we fell short of our commitment to atransparent and inclusive process." Multiple delegates have mentioned that they were shutdown in discussions during the MNC process. It has been an unmitigated ****show pretty much the whole way through.

Now, I agree that ABCN will likely pass it, in some way, as they are intertwined in the process, and the president of the board has been stumping for it whole hog since the beginning. But, even before the Trump administration, it was likely to be challenged legally if adopted. Now, that would seem to be a certainty. That's where members fees will be going in the near future. Good thing they have flush reserves, at least for now.
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I didn’t realize it was one vote… wow. I totally see what you’re saying and agree. The important thing is whether or not organizations adopt it, and especially ABCN’s opinion, and whether or not there’s any legal battles. It’s been entertaining to say the least watching an original HCG author and current MNC delegates at my current work spar over the last year as we’ve talked as a group about the MNC process unfolding.

I’m glad I was rejected as an at-large delegate way back in 2022… in chatting with a few other close colleagues rejected for at large slots it seems we all think we’ve dodged a massive headache.
 
jdawg2017 said:
I didn’t realize it was one vote… wow. I totally see what you’re saying and agree. The important thing is whether or not organizations adopt it, and especially ABCN’s opinion, and whether or not there’s any legal battles. It’s been entertaining to say the least watching an original HCG author and current MNC delegates at my current work spar over the last year as we’ve talked as a group about the MNC process unfolding.

I’m glad I was rejected as an at-large delegate way back in 2022… in chatting with a few other close colleagues rejected for at large slots it seems we all think we’ve dodged a massive headache.
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Meanwhile, over at NAN today

"In addition to these forward-looking initiatives, NAN remains steadfast in ensuring the integrity of processes that impact our field. Since 2022, NAN has worked to contribute to the Minnesota Guidelines, which aim to modernize training competencies in clinical neuropsychology by incorporating advancements in technology and cultural neuropsychology, with a strong emphasis on diversity and inclusion. NAN supported this initiative through financial contributions and active participation in the Minnesota Conference, represented by our delegates, Drs. Laura Lacritz and Karin McCoy.

Despite NAN’s advocacy for a transparent and inclusive process, significant deviations from the agreed-upon procedures raised concerns. Parliamentary procedure was not followed, and certain elements of the document—which was largely drafted by a small group of individuals—were not voted on by delegates. In November 2024, delegates were asked to vote whether to endorse the competency document without changes and were informed that regardless of the vote's outcome, the document would be published. The delegates also were informed that an implementation document, critical for assessing the aspirational elements of the competency guidelines, would be developed later.

In response, in November 2024, the NAN Board of Directors submitted a formal statement urging a pause in the voting process and a postponement of publication until all delegates’ voices were heard and an implementation document was completed. Unfortunately, NAN’s request was not met with agreement from the Steering Committee. However, NAN remains steadfast in its commitment to upholding integrity in this process. We strongly believe that any document that aims to establish a new perspective on training should be firmly grounded in equitable procedures, including a fair and meaningful voting process that reflects the collective input of the neuropsychology community."
 
In recognition of professionalism: I'll produce my professional work product for payment, and refuse assumptions that I have any requirement to do anything more.
In respect for my colleagues: I'll assume every supervisee is an adult that is competent in dealing with emotions, and give feedback accordingly.
In respect for the scientific nature of the profession: I'll favor science, over any non-evidence based factors.
In respect for 69 years of research, I'll communicate directly during conflicts.
In recognition that our patients suffer from neuropsychiatric illness, I will accept that these illnesses will skew some individual's perceptions of inclusiveness, marginalization, and similar factors.
In recognition of the profession and associated education: I will refuse to participate in systemic interventions that are outside of the scope of my practice, according to most laws.
To respect the dignity of my patients, I will not act like there is not a power differential and refer to them as clients.
To respect the autonomy of patients, I will treat everyone similarly and allow the patient to decide if we are a therapeutic match.
To respect the autonomy of myself, I will refuse to allow any professional organization to tell me how to cope with things in my free time.
In recognition that Nazis probably think they are right, I will not advocate that any psychologist try to promote their culture's version of justice and similar factors. Because that sounds like it could backfire hard.
To respect equity: I will not accept instruction from anyone that is not subject to the same rules.
 
Therapist4Chnge said:
Yes, there are a lot of changes coming in the VA, but has anyone checked the price of eggs lately? Tariffs start soon too.

Are we “making America great again” yet?
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Tariffs start tomorrow in fact.

Trash Chibi GIF by 100% Soft
 
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.....university just requested we halt spending on the R01 diversity supplement for one of my trainees. Note that this is pre-emptive university compliance and was not a directive from NIH. Fortunate I have other pots of money I can pull from so the actual impact should be minimal (besides me not being able to spend that pot of money on other things). There is < 10k left in it anyways, so not even a large sum but.....geez.

Hoping no trainees here are suddenly having their stipends vanish mid-semester or anything like that. Heart goes out to anyone who is being impacted right now.
 
DEI is a racist doctrine used by activists to subvert foundational structures of our society for personal gain. It's simply a power play by incompetents and they'll do it by any means necessary. The underhanded tactics used by some folks in the MNC is par for the course. Removing such a massive tumor from our field is likely to bring more pain but is ultimately necessary.

To anyone affected by the new rules: lick your wounds, stop grifting, and get a real job.
 
It sounds like APPCN voted to accept (or at least endorse) the MNC guidelines. NAN has obviously come out critical of them/the process for them. Not sure how close the APPCN vote was or how other organizations will pan out. I don't think anyone knows how the current administration's policies will affect the MNC (or anything else).
 
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Freud’sMommy said:
DEI is a racist doctrine used by activists to subvert foundational structures of our society for personal gain. It's simply a power play by incompetents and they'll do it by any means necessary. The underhanded tactics used by some folks in the MNC is par for the course. Removing such a massive tumor from our field is likely to bring more pain but is ultimately necessary.

To anyone affected by the new rules: lick your wounds, stop grifting, and get a real job.
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Regardless of your opinion on the matter, imagine being in this field and showing this amount of lack of empathy.
 
Freud’sMommy said:
DEI is a racist doctrine used by activists to subvert foundational structures of our society for personal gain. It's simply a power play by incompetents and they'll do it by any means necessary. The underhanded tactics used by some folks in the MNC is par for the course. Removing such a massive tumor from our field is likely to bring more pain but is ultimately necessary.

To anyone affected by the new rules: lick your wounds, stop grifting, and get a real job.
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I bet you were REAL popular amongst your cohort. Lulz.
 
So apparently NASA and NIH have been instructed to take down all pictures of women and minority scientists on their walls.
 
tr said:
Source??!!?
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Yeah, I need to see primary sources to believe much of anything these days. Trump normalized lying as an art form and it's spread. I saw some left leaning sites pushing a link between easing vaccine mandates and the TB outbreak in Kansas. Except, you know, almost no one gets a TB vaccine in industrialized nations these days. Lot of misinformation and agenda pushing these days. As to most any claim someone sends me, I say, show me the primary sources!
 
Agree RE: lying being an art form these days. Its really become ridiculous and I hate that can't trust literally anything anymore. At the same time, legitimate sources + public gag orders do not mix. Most of my NIH news is coming via texts from a colleague who did his post-doc there and "knows people." None of it is public but I've gotten advance scoops on a number of things that were later true so.....

RE: DEI - was just talking with a colleague about how I really, really need someone to f'ing operationalize this in a more specific way than "Things Breitbart says are bad". I'm about to submit a grant I certainly don't think about as being remotely DEI but has plenty of the "naughty" words in it. We'll be testing a targeted intervention in women to address a very well-established disparity. The mechanism entails lots of discussion of dopamine synthesis and neurogenesis, with zero discussion of the patriarchy, so believe me when I say it is pretty light on what people typically think of as DEI. Yet it is a project specifically in women to address a health disparity. The MPI team can't even figure out if its worth submitting....
 
Ollie123 said:
Agree RE: lying being an art form these days. Its really become ridiculous and I hate that can't trust literally anything anymore. At the same time, legitimate sources + public gag orders do not mix. Most of my NIH news is coming via texts from a colleague who did his post-doc there and "knows people." None of it is public but I've gotten advance scoops on a number of things that were later true so.....

RE: DEI - was just talking with a colleague about how I really, really need someone to f'ing operationalize this in a more specific way than "Things Breitbart says are bad". I'm about to submit a grant I certainly don't think about as being remotely DEI but has plenty of the "naughty" words in it. We'll be testing a targeted intervention in women to address a very well-established disparity. The mechanism entails lots of discussion of dopamine synthesis and neurogenesis, with zero discussion of the patriarchy, so believe me when I say it is pretty light on what people typically think of as DEI. Yet it is a project specifically in women to address a health disparity. The MPI team can't even figure out if its worth submitting....
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Is it responsive to a specific NOSI or FOA? The ORWH page was down altogether, and now back up as an extremely pared-down stub with almost no information.

ORWH Home

Established in 1990, the Office of Research on Women's Health serves as the focal point for women's health research at the National Institutes of Health
orwh.od.nih.gov orwh.od.nih.gov

Their FOA page has been taken down and now goes to a 404 not found.

However, individual NOSI/FOA pages seem to be active, or at least don't say expired.

NOT-OD-24-079: Notice of Special Interest: Womens Health Research

NIH Funding Opportunities and Notices in the NIH Guide for Grants and Contracts: Notice of Special Interest: Womens Health Research NOT-OD-24-079. ORWH
grants.nih.gov

NOT-OD-24-179: Notice of Special Interest (NOSI): Research on the Health of Women of Underrepresented, Underserved, and Underreported (U3) Populations (Admin Supp Clinical Trial Optional)

NIH Funding Opportunities and Notices in the NIH Guide for Grants and Contracts: Notice of Special Interest (NOSI): Research on the Health of Women of Underrepresented, Underserved, and Underreported (U3) Populations (Admin Supp Clinical Trial Optional) NOT-OD-24-179. ORWH
grants.nih.gov

PAR-25-282: Mood and Psychosis Symptoms during the Menopause Transition (R21 Clinical Trial Optional)

NIH Funding Opportunities and Notices in the NIH Guide for Grants and Contracts: Mood and Psychosis Symptoms during the Menopause Transition (R21 Clinical Trial Optional) PAR-25-282. NIMH
grants.nih.gov

If it's already prepared, I don't see what's to gain from not sending it in. Who knows what the future holds.
 
Its to a general PAR so that isn't an issue. Really it just depends on whether they will be getting into the weeds and filtering out individual applications or just culling specific PAs/NOSIs.

Resub, but one that requires a fairly extensive overhaul. We're still a month out so "About to submit" is a relative term and we've probably got a good 40-50 hours of editing left. I'm actually the one in favor of sending it in (MPI), but I understand why others are less certain about spending that much time.
 
...the IDC changes - if upheld - seem very likely to collapse much of the US academic medical system.
 
I think “restructure” is more accurate. Departments will have to reconsider each cost item, hopefully while remembering why universities exist in the first place.
 
I think that would be true if this was done well, with a reasonable ramp-down period and effort to reduce the regulations that many of the IDCs get spent on (grants management offices, etc.). I cannot possibly envision a more incompetent way to go about things if that is actually the goal. Many/most grants will represent a net loss for the institution under this model. Universities will - quite understandably - start disallowing applications. Most medical school researchers are soft money, which will go away.

I mean, if by "restructure" you mean mass unemployment and a sizable portion of institutions having to simply close their doors and/or halt all research activities while only providing bare-bones education....I can perhaps see it. I certainly don't think the effects of this will be subtle. Schools like UNC just got thrown into a budget deficit of ~ $300,000,000 (rough armchair calculation based on their IDC rate and 2024 NIH grant support) overnight. Obviously it will vary across schools, but that's a big enough hole they can't just shuffle some chairs around to dig up. Some may be rescued by states, others may lean on endowments but a lot won't be able to adjust quick enough.
 
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