Feeling wretched

[mercaptovizadeh]

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So I'm 1.5 years into my PhD, with plenty of issues with getting experiments to work, and my mentor tells me today that he's moving to another faraway institution shortly ("It could be two weeks or it could be six months"....yeah, thanks).

There's no one he collaborates with here because everyone hates him.

I can't move, due to extreme family/financial issues.

He didn't even offer for me to move over and do the PhD over at his new institution, even if I wanted to.

He was an absent mentor who met with me once every three weeks or even less frequently.

Oh, and he told other people in the lab and clinic that it was shutting down 1 month ago. Everyone is getting nixed. I got told today - the last person in his lab or clinic to be told.

So, basically I do a fresh start with a totally new PhD or I go back to med school.

I'm not gonna lie that I loved the PhD; lots of times it has sucked.

What should I do?

 

[nothingman]

I'm sorry to hear that, it's probably the worst time for it to happen because you're far enough in, but not far enough to wrap things up on your own.

I would start by talking to your MD-PhD program director, any kind of outside advisors you have, and the director of the PhD program that you're in and see what they suggest. They have a vested interest in seeing you succeed, and may have had experience with other students in the same position.

I've been in some tricky situations during my PhD with respect to being the last to know things that affected me directly, and often feeling like I'm flying solo. Feel free to PM if I can be helpful...

 

[Neuronix]

That's terrible. I think nothingman's advice is spot on about talking to your MD/PhD advisors. Any way you look at it (moving, not moving), you're going to add at least a year onto your PhD. Some programs aren't going to allow you to move with him anyways. Are you comfortable with in all likelihood becoming a 9-10 year total MD/PhD? How about a MD/MS?

I'm sorry this happened to you 🙁 It could happen to anyone. This is a sad reminder of that fact.

 

[gbwillner]

So I'm 1.5 years into my PhD, with plenty of issues with getting experiments to work, and my mentor tells me today that he's moving to another faraway institution shortly ("It could be two weeks or it could be six months"....yeah, thanks).

There's no one he collaborates with here because everyone hates him.

I can't move, due to extreme family/financial issues.

He didn't even offer for me to move over and do the PhD over at his new institution, even if I wanted to.

He was an absent mentor who met with me once every three weeks or even less frequently.

Oh, and he told other people in the lab and clinic that it was shutting down 1 month ago. Everyone is getting nixed. I got told today - the last person in his lab or clinic to be told.

So, basically I do a fresh start with a totally new PhD or I go back to med school.

I'm not gonna lie that I loved the PhD; lots of times it has sucked.

What should I do?

Find a PI that's not a douche. "There's no one he collaborates with here because everyone hates him." Why the crap did you pick that guy?

Anyway- it sucks but you really haven't lost that much time. You've probably just gotten through quals anyway- and most of the time you lost was probably "I still don't know what the crap I'm doing" time.

It will be fine. You say you loved the PhD- why consider dropping it?

 

[Scottish Chap]

So I'm 1.5 years into my PhD, with plenty of issues with getting experiments to work, and my mentor tells me today that he's moving to another faraway institution shortly ("It could be two weeks or it could be six months"....yeah, thanks).

There's no one he collaborates with here because everyone hates him.

I can't move, due to extreme family/financial issues.

He didn't even offer for me to move over and do the PhD over at his new institution, even if I wanted to.

He was an absent mentor who met with me once every three weeks or even less frequently.

Oh, and he told other people in the lab and clinic that it was shutting down 1 month ago. Everyone is getting nixed. I got told today - the last person in his lab or clinic to be told.

So, basically I do a fresh start with a totally new PhD or I go back to med school.

I'm not gonna lie that I loved the PhD; lots of times it has sucked.

What should I do?

This happened to me during my (non MSTP) Ph.D. I chose to stay at the same institution, and I found a PI to give me 'lab space". I finished off there. It was one of the hardest things I ever did. I was responsible for getting everything published pretty much alone, and my old PI that moved never saw my thesis before it was turned in.

You have three choices:
1. Leave the PhD and go back to medical school (a friend did this - he had to pay back the funds for tuition and stipend for the first two years of medical school).

2. Start a new PhD in a new lab. If the degree means that much to you, 1.5 years out of a life time is nothing - especially since you're not paying for it. No training is wasted.

3. Ask to move with him and take your chances.

This is the worst thing that can happen to a PhD student. I'm sorry...

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

I'm sorry to hear that, it's probably the worst time for it to happen because you're far enough in, but not far enough to wrap things up on your own.

I would start by talking to your MD-PhD program director, any kind of outside advisors you have, and the director of the PhD program that you're in and see what they suggest. They have a vested interest in seeing you succeed, and may have had experience with other students in the same position.

I've been in some tricky situations during my PhD with respect to being the last to know things that affected me directly, and often feeling like I'm flying solo. Feel free to PM if I can be helpful...

I haven't taken the qualifier yet. Now that I think about it, it's more like 1.25 rather than 1.5 years since I started grad school.

The MSTP director is a polished fellow but is also very "hands off." Apparently, he had an MD/PhD student of his own who left his lab after 2 or 3 years due to lack of mentoring.

I have felt like I have been flying solo for months.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

That's terrible. I think nothingman's advice is spot on about talking to your MD/PhD advisors. Any way you look at it (moving, not moving), you're going to add at least a year onto your PhD. Some programs aren't going to allow you to move with him anyways. Are you comfortable with in all likelihood becoming a 9-10 year total MD/PhD? How about a MD/MS?

I'm sorry this happened to you 🙁 It could happen to anyone. This is a sad reminder of that fact.

Thanks Neuronix, I knew you'd understand, given your own personal version of graduate school hell.

I can't move at all. I'm stuck where I am. I have a family member living with me at the moment (not spouse or children, but a sibling) who depends partially on my own stipend. If I was to move, this person could not cover all the cost of living expenses on their own (due to horrific law school loan repayments that consume 60+% of their public interest attorney salary). The market for attorneys is bad and this person isn't admitted to the bar of state to which the PI will be moving, so even if I could move, it would be out of the question.

Also, I'm not keen on continuing with this guy at all. He offered no support. No lab meetings. Half hour 1:1 meetings every 3-4 weeks. For a 1st year PhD student to be figuring out and troubleshooting proteomics, chromatography, immunoblots, RT-PCR, etc. entirely on my own from reading publications, Google, and calling up Qiagen/Invitrogen/BiotechCompanyDuJour technical support is just not reasonable. My background was electrophysiology and flow cytometry type work, pretty much, so I was SOL with the intense molecular bio. There are no post-docs who know molecular biology in the lab - no postdocs at all, really. No grad students, either.

Finally, he never offered me to move. It would be a "collaboration" with some guy here. With whom? He has no idea! I was seeing him once a month as it is (his office is just a few yards away), how could I possibly get mentorship with him several hours away?

As for the MS, I already have one from pre-MSTP in pchem, so I'm not interested in another one.

Sorry if I sound tense, but I'm just so disappointed right now, it's hard for me to be gentle.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

Find a PI that's not a douche. "There's no one he collaborates with here because everyone hates him." Why the crap did you pick that guy?

Anyway- it sucks but you really haven't lost that much time. You've probably just gotten through quals anyway- and most of the time you lost was probably "I still don't know what the crap I'm doing" time.

It will be fine. You say you loved the PhD- why consider dropping it?

1st rotation was with him. 2nd rotation was with a chick who has no funding at all right now or in the past year. 3rd rotation was with a husband-wife madcap pair who were quit literally nuts. I just spoke to another grad student who joined their lab and when I asked her how it was going, she said "Don't even ask. I just hope I survive."

I don't love the PhD. I'm thinking I'm not cut out for this.

I love the ideas of science, coming up with new hypotheses as I wait for the bus and shower.

I'm not hypercritical to rip others' work apart, I hate troubleshooting, I don't get a great thrill out of *doing* benchwork (it's OK), I hate posters and symposia, I hate scientific egomania, and I hate administrative stuff like lab notebook keeping.

I realize that all of the above are essentials for a scientific career, and yet they repulse me. The only thing I love are the ideas and coming up with new ones, alternative explanations for old ones, etc. And there's the hope to make a big difference in people's lives through applying science to medicine. That's it.

 

[Doctor&Geek]

Hearing this story makes me count my blessings - I've had a wonderful mentor and have had a very enjoyable PhD experience with many kind and outstanding colleagues. However, if I was in your situation, I might want to quit science, too.

It is the definitive responsibility of the program director to go to bat for you. Based on your previous treatment, I wouldn't move even if I had the choice. The program director should suggest a mentor with previous experience in training MD/PhD students and reputation for graduating students expeditiously. It is the program directors interest to keep you in the program and get you finished quickly - a major component in program evaluation is attrition.

If you have a graduate committee already set up, they are also ideal people to talk with.

 

[QofQuimica]

mercapto-

I agree, you need to talk to someone who can and will help you get back on track. Even if you're not sure how much he would help you, the program director is probably still the first person you should approach. You could also go to the dean of students at your med school. Even though you're MD/PhD, you're still a med student.

My advice would be to find another mentor and try again. Don't focus primarily on the project or even the field; really focus on finding a good mentor who treats his/her employees well and graduates his/her grad students. The right mentor really does make all the difference. I've posted before about how I dropped out of grad school once with an MS for personal reasons, and almost dropped out a second time with nothing for PI conflict reasons. Fortunately, my parents convinced me to talk to some of the other PIs in the department, and I wound up switching labs to work with a new PI who had just been hired on as a full prof. It was like night and day. I went from hating grad school to loving it, and from spinning my wheels to finishing my entire PhD in 2.5 years, even with having to start over again from scratch. So did my best friend, who jumped labs with me. (Now granted, it looks like a lot of our PhD work might never be published because publishing is not our PI's top priority. But I'd still choose him over my previous PI in a heartbeat.)

The point is that finding the right PI is hands down the absolute most important thing for a PhD student. In a way, being forced out of this lab, which is obviously a bad situation, could really turn out to be a blessing in disguise. This PI does not seem to have your interests at heart, and that's a problem. Having been in my own lab situation that was destined for failure, I can tell you that the point where I brought things to a head and made the decision to leave that lab was one of the best and most angst-relieving decisions I have ever made. I should have done it a lot sooner.

Best of luck; I hope you will find a resolution that you're happy with.

 

[Neuronix]

(a friend did this - he had to pay back the funds for tuition and stipend for the first two years of medical school)

You should not have to pay back your first two years as long as you're in a MSTP.

That being said, gbwillner has a good point. If you've mostly been working on course work your first year of grad school, you may not have lost that much time.

 

[Scottish Chap]

You should not have to pay back your first two years as long as you're in a MSTP.

That being said, gbwillner has a good point. If you've mostly been working on course work your first year of grad school, you may not have lost that much time.

It depends on the source of funding. At the medical school I attended, institutional funds/private funds run the program - it had to be paid back in the case of my classmate. Fortunately, he had help from is family. At the institution where I did my PhD, two friends did not finish their PhD, and they did not have to pay it back (NIH-funded); they were, however, responsible for the last two years of medical school and there was no stipend.

 

[CielloStelatto]

i think he was referring to programs with the true term "mstp," since they are by nature NIH funded.

 

[dl2dp2]

I thought you are going into ENT? Perhaps you should just drop the PhD in that case. All the other advices are sound here.

I can't believe this happened to you, but it's not uncommon.

 

[r1oid]

very sorry to hear about your situation. my 2 cents are if you were happy doing science at some point then it might be worth a shot to find another lab but this time focusing on the PI/lab members. You aren't that far in if its 1.25 years, I think most of us only really get cranking our last two years. Most of the first year is usually burned learning techniques and finishing classes and quals.

A few people in our program and mstp friends at other schools have had similar things happen and it always had a lot to do with PI's with poor personalities and mentoring ability. One of my friends had a PI that started making racial slurs at him when experiments didn't work. Another had a PI who tossed him under the bus in committee meeting saying all their work (a project the PI designed and pushed) was all crap and that a year of work was all a waste. All of the people I knew who switched labs did not regret it once they got going on their new work with better people. I got the smooth talker/poor mentor PI on my first rotation and chose my next rotations and thesis lab based on talking and meeting with people in the labs and talking with recently graduated students.

Sorry again about your situation and good luck.

 

[xanthines]

I'm sorry this happened to you. Sounds like a terrible situation. However, I'd take some time to think about what you really want to do and not make any rash decisions. You've had some med school training and you've had some grad school training so you at least have some inkling of an idea of what's ahead. Try to be objective about your goals, what's practical for you, and what might make you happy in the end. If it makes you feel any better, I don't think you'll be hindered too much if you quit and go back to med school. You'll just make up for it later in fellowship/postdoc if research really is what you want to do (easier said than done, of course!).

Best of luck!

-X

 

[gbwillner]

1st rotation was with him. 2nd rotation was with a chick who has no funding at all right now or in the past year. 3rd rotation was with a husband-wife madcap pair who were quit literally nuts. I just spoke to another grad student who joined their lab and when I asked her how it was going, she said "Don't even ask. I just hope I survive."

I did 5 rotations to find my PhD thesis lab. Nothing felt right until then. Even then, it wasn't perfect, but I got through. You F'd up picking a lab- big deal, you only lost a year (really just a few months of pure research time). Now you have an excellent opportunity to do it right- find a mentor who caters to your needs. And is NOT a DOUCHE. My wife spent 5 years in a crappy lab before deciding to switch- think about that for a minute.

I don't love the PhD. I'm thinking I'm not cut out for this.

Not touching this one- my wife felt the same way. wait until you are in a good situation before deciding that- your judgement is clouded by anger and frustration. That's the path to the dark side.

I love the ideas of science, coming up with new hypotheses as I wait for the bus and shower.

I'm not hypercritical to rip others' work apart, I hate troubleshooting, I don't get a great thrill out of *doing* benchwork (it's OK), I hate posters and symposia, I hate scientific egomania, and I hate administrative stuff like lab notebook keeping.

I realize that all of the above are essentials for a scientific career, and yet they repulse me. The only thing I love are the ideas and coming up with new ones, alternative explanations for old ones, etc. And there's the hope to make a big difference in people's lives through applying science to medicine. That's it.

None of that is striking. How many PIs do you see DOING wet bench work? Why do you think that is? Because it sucks, that's why. No one likes it. Thats why you become a PI- to have good ideas and let others with masters degrees do all the grunt work.
I would think about looking for another lab, interviewing with new PIs, and if after you give it your best shot it doesn't work, then consider leaving.

 

[happyresearcher]

many md-phd students have been in your shoes. if you really love research, do the phd. you won't regret it. but if there's no one at your institution that can give you a good training experience, you may consider doing a fellowship post-doc...which might work out better.
i would not consider moving with that faculty member. see if there is someone you can work with for the next step at your institution. sometimes the senior students in a graduate program can point the way as to who the good PIs are. it's hard to tell in brief interviews who would be appropriate mentor. think about the PIs who have given talks that have impressed you, who promote their students, and who have students that seem happy and productive.

i would think very practically about who to work with. pick a project that's feasible in 3 years. talk with other people. i think that's the only way to navigate through this.

good luck.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

Hearing this story makes me count my blessings - I've had a wonderful mentor and have had a very enjoyable PhD experience with many kind and outstanding colleagues. However, if I was in your situation, I might want to quit science, too.

It is the definitive responsibility of the program director to go to bat for you. Based on your previous treatment, I wouldn't move even if I had the choice. The program director should suggest a mentor with previous experience in training MD/PhD students and reputation for graduating students expeditiously. It is the program directors interest to keep you in the program and get you finished quickly - a major component in program evaluation is attrition.

If you have a graduate committee already set up, they are also ideal people to talk with.

I suggested a PI and the program director confirmed that this guy has a very good reputation. I'm pursuing that line and hopefully it will pan out.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

mercapto-

I agree, you need to talk to someone who can and will help you get back on track. Even if you're not sure how much he would help you, the program director is probably still the first person you should approach. You could also go to the dean of students at your med school. Even though you're MD/PhD, you're still a med student.

My advice would be to find another mentor and try again. Don't focus primarily on the project or even the field; really focus on finding a good mentor who treats his/her employees well and graduates his/her grad students. The right mentor really does make all the difference. I've posted before about how I dropped out of grad school once with an MS for personal reasons, and almost dropped out a second time with nothing for PI conflict reasons. Fortunately, my parents convinced me to talk to some of the other PIs in the department, and I wound up switching labs to work with a new PI who had just been hired on as a full prof. It was like night and day. I went from hating grad school to loving it, and from spinning my wheels to finishing my entire PhD in 2.5 years, even with having to start over again from scratch. So did my best friend, who jumped labs with me. (Now granted, it looks like a lot of our PhD work might never be published because publishing is not our PI's top priority. But I'd still choose him over my previous PI in a heartbeat.)

The point is that finding the right PI is hands down the absolute most important thing for a PhD student. In a way, being forced out of this lab, which is obviously a bad situation, could really turn out to be a blessing in disguise. This PI does not seem to have your interests at heart, and that's a problem. Having been in my own lab situation that was destined for failure, I can tell you that the point where I brought things to a head and made the decision to leave that lab was one of the best and most angst-relieving decisions I have ever made. I should have done it a lot sooner.

Best of luck; I hope you will find a resolution that you're happy with.

I agree, there is an element of blessing in disguise, since obviously the situation until now hasn't been great. That has somewhat tempered my disappointment. If this was a lab in which I was thriving, great connection with the mentor, etc. it would be much more painful. As it is, it's pretty bad.

Unfortunately, it's always the student that is "crazy." Whenever a student leaves a lab, they're fickle, finicky, nuts, etc. The mentor is never wrong. It seems like mentors can get away with anything as long as they have tenure and publish. Even when the mentor leaves, somehow it's the student's fault for "not making it work" or whatever. I'm so tired of this crap. It's exactly like in med school: the attending/professor is never wrong, the subordinate is always wrong.

I spoke to a friend this weekend and the stories she told me about PIs at her school are just hair-raising. So my experience has been put into context - it isn't unique, it isn't rare, and there are worse cases. Much worse cases, apparently.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

You should not have to pay back your first two years as long as you're in a MSTP.

That being said, gbwillner has a good point. If you've mostly been working on course work your first year of grad school, you may not have lost that much time.

It depends on the source of funding. At the medical school I attended, institutional funds/private funds run the program - it had to be paid back in the case of my classmate. Fortunately, he had help from is family. At the institution where I did my PhD, two friends did not finish their PhD, and they did not have to pay it back (NIH-funded); they were, however, responsible for the last two years of medical school and there was no stipend.

i think he was referring to programs with the true term "mstp," since they are by nature NIH funded.

It is MSTP, so payback is not an issue. There are other serious issues with going back now to MD, so I'm inclined to restart the PhD, actually.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

I did 5 rotations to find my PhD thesis lab. Nothing felt right until then. Even then, it wasn't perfect, but I got through. You F'd up picking a lab- big deal, you only lost a year (really just a few months of pure research time). Now you have an excellent opportunity to do it right- find a mentor who caters to your needs. And is NOT a DOUCHE. My wife spent 5 years in a crappy lab before deciding to switch- think about that for a minute.



Not touching this one- my wife felt the same way. wait until you are in a good situation before deciding that- your judgement is clouded by anger and frustration. That's the path to the dark side.



None of that is striking. How many PIs do you see DOING wet bench work? Why do you think that is? Because it sucks, that's why. No one likes it. Thats why you become a PI- to have good ideas and let others with masters degrees do all the grunt work.
I would think about looking for another lab, interviewing with new PIs, and if after you give it your best shot it doesn't work, then consider leaving.

Thanks for some perspective. I think you're right on. My only regret is focusing on research topics and fields rather than the best mentor, regardless of interest in topic or field. It seems the mentor really is 99% of the experience.

 

[gbwillner]

Thanks for some perspective. I think you're right on. My only regret is focusing on research topics and fields rather than the best mentor, regardless of interest in topic or field. It seems the mentor really is 99% of the experience.

Glad to help. A few years ago I posted a long diatribe on picking a lab. It was a thread similar to yours... i will see if I can find it and maybe add it to a sticky.


Good luck...
GB

 

[Treg]

I agree with everyone here, this is probably a blessing in disguise. If it was this bad starting off, imagine what it would have been like 2 years from now. I like to say that people are ready to defend their thesis when they have a refined, deep-seeded hatred for their PI 😎

You have gotten a lot of the PhD scut out of the way (courses, learning the ropes, etc). Now you can try to have a clearly defined pathway to finish your PhD in a new lab. If I were you, prepare a detailed outline of what your thesis will be like. Stick to the theme--don't get sidetracked with other projects. Imagine what the papers will look like and do those experiments. Start working on an introduction (which you can try to publish as a review article or two) in your down time now, while you are getting off the ground in a new lab.

Instead of feeling sorry for yourself (totally understandable, given the circumstances!), use the motivation of helping your sibling out, getting through it, etc to be focused. If you can make it through this, it will be a testament to your mental toughness and work ethic when you are defending your thesis and applying to residency.

Good luck!! Treg