Fellowship help

[pathhelp]

---

Members don't see this ad.

Does anyone know of fellowships not filled for 2010 for surg or cyto especially in the chicago area.
Also, how easy/hard is it to get a fellowship spot without pay. Would this be an ACGME violation??

 

[deschutes]

Firstly, what is your objective?

If you want to eventually get a job in the Chicago area, you might want to consider leaving for fellowship. The problem with cities such as Chicago and Boston is that there are many institutions fighting over the same pie, so there's a good chance you'd end up with a skewed perspective if you did all your training in that local area. For the sake of career advancement, you'd have a better chance of a well-rounded experience if you go to a high-volume surg path fellowship with a strong reputation. Mayo for instance has a great reputation throughout the Midwest if not more, and doesn't appear to have a problem placing their fellows, even those with "just" surg path (although I don't know if many of the latter are heading to popular places like Chicago).

I can't say I'd recommend paying someone to let you be their surg path/cytopath fellow. Those two fellowships are nowhere near as competitive as say dermpath (for which I have heard of rare arrangements to be unpaid fellows). I suspect that being an unpaid surg path/cytopath fellow might do some damage to your reputation, as it is not a common path to take - and in addition might cast doubts on the candidate's skills and abilities. But others might think different.

As for whether an unpaid fellowship is an ACGME violation - ACGME only accredits the structure/content of fellowships, so if you found an institution that was willing to do all this wading into uncharted territory for you (I can't imagine that it would happen without a lot of string-pulling and money changing hands) I think it could be done right. Whether you could sit for cytopath boards is another question. Presumably the people who did unpaid dermpath fellowships did end up taking dermpath boards, so based on that I guess it's fair to come to the conclusion that the same could be managed for cytopathology. Seems pretty fraught with risk.

If your goal is to stay in Chicago no matter what, I would call around and keep an eye open and an ear to the ground for any unexpected openings. I don't personally know of any, but check PathologyOutlines.com and CareerMD.com etc. And be prepared to move if you have to.

[EDIT] For what it's worth, I think UMinn has cytopath spots open for 2010.

 

[green mantis]

Does anyone know of fellowships not filled for 2010 for surg or cyto especially in the chicago area.

Have you checked Pathology Outlines? They have a listing of advertised fellowships for the next couple of years.


----- Antony

 

[yaah]

Also, when your goal is this specific (a chicago program) it doesn't hurt to just call programs and tell them you are looking for a fellowship, even though it is late, and wonder if they have any.

 

[exPCM]

Does anyone know of fellowships not filled for 2010 for surg or cyto especially in the chicago area.
Also, how easy/hard is it to get a fellowship spot without pay. Would this be an ACGME violation??

Unpaid fellowships are not allowed for ACGME accredited fellowships.
For fellowships that are not ACGME accredited it is like the Wild West - just about anything goes.

You can contact the ACGME yourself as this person did:
http://www.orthogate.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=22295&sid=f73b1de521b78fe49cb59f7b4f8b34cf

or just read the ACGME requirements here: http://www.acgme.org/acWebsite/irc/irc_IRCpr07012007.pdf

In the past the ACGME did allow unpaid fellowships but this is no longer the case.

 

[Psychopathology]

In the past the ACGME did allow unpaid fellowships but this is no longer the case.

Wow, that's an eye-opener! Glad ACGME cracked down on that.

 

[blueface]

Unpaid fellowships are not allowed for ACGME accredited fellowships.
For fellowships that are not ACGME accredited it is like the Wild West - just about anything goes.

You can contact the ACGME yourself as this person did:
http://www.orthogate.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=22295&sid=f73b1de521b78fe49cb59f7b4f8b34cf

or just read the ACGME requirements here: http://www.acgme.org/acWebsite/irc/irc_IRCpr07012007.pdf

In the past the ACGME did allow unpaid fellowships but this is no longer the case.

This maybe true for residency. But a different matter for fellowships. Actually I was approached for an unpaid dermpath fellowship this year.

 

[exPCM]

This maybe true for residency. But a different matter for fellowships. Actually I was approached for an unpaid dermpath fellowship this year.

No it actually is true for fellowships. Just ask the ACGME if you don't believe me. I have a friend who does ACGME site visits and this is one item they look for. If a program really offered you an unpaid spot that it is a violation if it is an accredited spot. Was this really an accredited spot and are you willing to name this program? I know there have been FMGs that come and spend time at dermpath fellowships as basically unpaid non-accredited visitors (eg. at the Ackerman Academy) but they can not take the dermpath boards and they are not in accredited fellowship spots. Are you an FMG?

 

[yaah]

Yeah, exPCM is right - if you are doing an unpaid fellowship in a specialty that is accredited (and has a board exam) I don't think you can sit for the board exam. When people do unpaid fellowships it is often because they have no intention of taking the board exam.

I have heard rumors of this happening in specialties other than pathology also - sometimes people are so desperate to do a fellowship that they will consider that option if it exists.

In addition to non-paying fellowships there are (non-accredited) underpaid fellowships, where you basically sign cases out (often times at private labs) but get paid like a fellow (I think this happens mostly in GI and GU fellowships at these labs). Great benefits for the people who run the private lab since they just keep the rest of the reimbursement money. 2-year dermpath fellowships are sometimes like this also, where the second year you sign out, but still get paid low wages. I would not do one of these fellowships without seriously looking into it, or if there were extenuating circumstances that made it a good idea for a specific individual at a specific time.

 

[blueface]

No it actually is true for fellowships. Just ask the ACGME if you don't believe me. I have a friend who does ACGME site visits and this is one item they look for. If a program really offered you an unpaid spot that it is a violation if it is an accredited spot. Was this really an accredited spot and are you willing to name this program? I know there have been FMGs that come and spend time at dermpath fellowships as basically unpaid non-accredited visitors (eg. at the Ackerman Academy) but they can not take the dermpath boards and they are not in accredited fellowship spots. Are you an FMG?

I'm an FMG. But it's not the point. The program that approached me is an accredited academic program and actually one of the best dermpath programs. I know people never agree on program ranking. This program is surely a top ten according to anyone's ranking. But I can't reveal the name. Because I secured a fellowship at another program, I respectfully declined it. Otherwise, it would have taken me a heartbeat to say yes.