Fibromyalgia (evidence?)

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Mental health is not an actual disorder or disease entity?
Sure it is. I wonder though, is fibromyalgia a consequence of the mental health disorder, or is fibro a separate disease entity? We sure like to call it a separate entity. I wonder also if we're harming patients by labeling them as fibro, thus possibly undertreating their mental health diagnoses.
 
There was a study in 2014 in the American Journal of Neurology. They took 25 patients with fibromyalgia and 25 without and did femoral nerve biopsies. It turns out the fibromyalgia patents really did have "overactive" nerves! ....just kidding I made that up.

Every specially has their "functional" patients. IBS, fibromyalgia, interstitial cystitis, etc, etc. You can never really prove or disprove that these conditions are "real." You rule out other causes of symptoms and arrive at your diagnosis in the absence of alarm features or other findings. The bottom line is these patients have symptoms that interfere with their quality of life. We have medicines and lifestyle interventions that can improve their quality of life and you should try your best to help them. Lazy/bad physicians will make these problems worse by prescribing narcotics. Once you get these patients on chronic narcotics, they have a secondary hyperalgesia and are setup for failure and bad healthcare interactions. It is often very difficult for patients to understand this phenomenon.

In the GI world, they have done studies where they put pressure on the GE junction, and there really is evidence of visceral hypersensitivity as a phenomenon.
 
There was a study in 2014 in the American Journal of Neurology. They took 25 patients with fibromyalgia and 25 without and did femoral nerve biopsies. It turns out the fibromyalgia patents really did have "overactive" nerves! ....just kidding I made that up.

Every specially has their "functional" patients. IBS, fibromyalgia, interstitial cystitis, etc, etc. You can never really prove or disprove that these conditions are "real." You rule out other causes of symptoms and arrive at your diagnosis in the absence of alarm features or other findings. The bottom line is these patients have symptoms that interfere with their quality of life. We have medicines and lifestyle interventions that can improve their quality of life and you should try your best to help them. Lazy/bad physicians will make these problems worse by prescribing narcotics. Once you get these patients on chronic narcotics, they have a secondary hyperalgesia and are setup for failure and bad healthcare interactions. It is often very difficult for patients to understand this phenomenon.

In the GI world, they have done studies where they put pressure on the GE junction, and there really is evidence of visceral hypersensitivity as a phenomenon.
For conditions such as these, placebo medications really should be allowed as first line. People like to have a name to their symptoms (i.e. a diagnosis) and specific “prescription medications” but I agree that real medicines often only make it worse and few have the time or patience to do therapy during a clinic visit.
 
In med school they taught me it's perfectly ethical and possible to prescribe placebo as long as you obtain informed consent by explaining what a placebo is... never got around to figuring out how to write that particular order and what the pharmacy carries for that.... I guess it is a thing. They even told us how to explain what a placebo is.

Apparently in studies they found that the placebo effect still works even if you unblind people and tell them what a placebo is.

Should we really be surprised? I'm not. I'll take a little placebo effect any day as long as it's ethical.
 
In med school they taught me it's perfectly ethical and possible to prescribe placebo as long as you obtain informed consent by explaining what a placebo is... never got around to figuring out how to write that particular order and what the pharmacy carries for that.... I guess it is a thing. They even told us how to explain what a placebo is.

Apparently in studies they found that the placebo effect still works even if you unblind people and tell them what a placebo is.

Should we really be surprised? I'm not. I'll take a little placebo effect any day as long as it's ethical.

Look into the history of placebos. The effect of the placebo is primarily that the patient thinks it’s goi g to work. Telling them it’s a placebo removed that facade.
 
Look into the history of placebos. The effect of the placebo is primarily that the patient thinks it’s goi g to work. Telling them it’s a placebo removed that facade.
You can get around that by saying “there hasn’t been a lot of data on this, but it works for a lot of patients (or ‘many patients with your condition tell me this works for them’) and it is relatively safe”
 
yep, it's all in how you explain it

the health literacy of so many people is low, that even when you say "this is not considered a medication because it has no active ingredient that has been shown to have any mechanism of action in treating illness" ie what's been said about every herb that HAS been shown to kill livers/kidneys, it doesn't cancel out the bit where you say that "some people experience subjective improvement anyway"

that's what I was saying, when it was studied, it turned out that it was a myth that one had to be blinded to a placebo for the placebo to have an effect

it's not that you give someone nothing and they think they got "something"
just the fact they were given anything at all that seems to have the benefit

it's believed that this explains why in the past certain traditional interventions that are clearly do nothing on any sort of physical basis, or are even toxic, people still "believed in" and felt they benefited from, anyway

it's *taking* the sugar pill, not whether or not you believe it was a sugar pill or something else

this is why blinded studies like for procedures like acupuncture can be a challenge, because to really be blinded you have to still appear to be "administering" whatever it is that you're testing the administration of, without actually administering something

at least at this point the theory is that it seems more that the fact something was done, more than just the rational mental understanding of just *what* was done

this also gets into some other studies that have been done about patient satisfaction and the physical exam, and why even if pushing on someone's belly is really nothing more than a symbolic gesture for billing, it actually has some therapeutic benefit we probably shouldn't do away for various reasons

I will also point out though, that educational attainment and health literacy was not a predictor of who would/would not experience placebo affect (despite me pointing out about health literacy earlier... just saying, I'm not sure it should be a surprise that it works for most folk overall)

basically, it doesn't work the way you think it should work, just a quirk of human psychology that isn't cancelled out cognitively, and has always been present as long as "medicine" has been practised
 
the point being that understanding all of this allows someone to ethically use the placebo affect in various ways, and also understanding where the placebo effect may be creeping in, that otherwise may not have seemed obvious
 
There was a study in 2014 in the American Journal of Neurology. They took 25 patients with fibromyalgia and 25 without and did femoral nerve biopsies. It turns out the fibromyalgia patents really did have "overactive" nerves! ....just kidding I made that up.

Aww you had me. Would be a great study....would never pass an IRB in America, China maybe.

We have medicines and lifestyle interventions that can improve their quality of life and you should try your best to help them. Lazy/bad physicians will make these problems worse by prescribing narcotics.

I whole-heatedly agree about the narcotics issues, this travesty can be discussed at length in a thread all by itself. But let me ask this: no narcotics, and now we're saying no nsaids/tylenol (they don't work, and they come with their fair share of side effects), we try PT/OT/Social Work/Case Management....say none of that works....then we go to 'alternative medicine' things like acupuncture, thai chi, bikram yoga, whatever have you. At what point does this leave the realm of Medicine and enter that of Apothicarysm? I didn't go to medical school to rx bikram yoga....nor do my patients need to see me to get that.

I'll ask a couple questions again (I'm genuinely curious):

1. Have any of your ever encountered a patient with fibromyalgia that does not have a mental health issue? (I'm firmly convinced that fibro is not a disease entity in an of itself, but rather a symptom of an underlying mental health issues, that's not adequately treated.....am I way off?)

2. Ever seen fibro resolve? (you treated the PTSD, and the fibro went away)
 
as for number 1, I think that's impossible to de-confound, because I don't think it's just a question of comorbidity or that untreated mental health "causes" fibromyalgia

Chronic pain, even when it's unquestionably somatic in origin, can always be a cause of a number of mental illnesses, the main one I'm thinking is depression. And there appear to be mechanisms for cause-effect beyond "oh hey now that I've got chronic pain I'm just really bummed how that affects my life and I'm just not coping well."

That isn't to say that all chronic pain leads to mental illness, but it certainly can a primary cause in some individuals.

I'm coming to think a lot of chronic pain or other "functional" neurological issues are very real, and real in the sense that there's nothing that anyone can control voluntarily to completely reverse what's going on (not in every case, of course). If a patient can't do anything to make it go away, and I can't do anything to make it go away, then I see no purpose to what I think is a lot of a "blame game," so that in the face of powerlessness to solve a super sucky yet real issue where no one is a bad guy, we don't have to feel bad because it represents some failure on the part of the patient or isn't "real." The hardest problems to deal with emotionally are the ones we can't do anything to solve. There are different ways providers cope with their own distress about these things, to "not care."

90% of the patients that are a massive pain in the ass don't want to be. Are they all maximizing what they could to maximize functionality and minimize the issue? Many aren't. Sure, that's true of anyone, we all cope with things more or less well and almost never perfectly. Are there some patients that just can never be bothered to enact solutions that would end their suffering? Yeah, but even then I think overall it's more complicated than that.

Basically, I don't think most of these patients are lying. I don't think it's just "in their head." I don't think it's something that would just be sorted out with psych or mental health treatments. I think there is some other basis to it, it could be something that we could one day understand, and at that point I'm not sure that means we could better treat it, but hopefully it would. Until then....

That said, and I say this all day every day to any one that will ever listen, is that 1) no, we actually can't fix everything, and that doesn't make the problem less real and 2) that doesn't mean that improvement isn't possible. There is ALWAYS room for improvement. That could be APAP, it could be placebo, it could be prayers and mint tea. Note that I don't recommend those things as first line for your stomach cancer. Exercise could help, it might not. Even if it didn't, you'd still be better for it. That's true for a lot of things you could improve.

I also point out that opiates are not a treatment nor a cure. They are only limited time only band aids that end up frakking you in the butt in a not nice way. It sucks, but life is pain. One of the first sensations to evolve in living beings was pain, it's a powerful motivator of behaviour. So with our pills we get people closer to dead before we ever really root out pain, which in some ways is why so many people have to medicate themselves into unconsciousness to get on top of the pain depending on how bad it is. We know that pain can wake us from sleep, so of course sometimes the point at which pain ceases is also the point at which consciousness does as well, and even then. They're wrapped up together. In general, to be conscious or alive is to be capable of feeling pain. That is how I explain that life is pain, and any expectation to live and not feel pain, is probably very unrealistic.

We have an enormous capacity to live with and cope with pain. Back in caveman days, if it didn't kill you, and you didn't kill yourself, you'd just *have* to live with it, no choice. So you absolutely can live with huge amounts of pain and no opiates. Man has done it for thousands of years. Maybe not live well, but live without nonetheless. Which brings me to my next point.

And even when pain is unquestionably not central in origin, like EVERY signal being filtered by the brain, it is subject to the brain interpreting the signal. So you might have moments where you "forget" the pain or it isn't that bad. Again, that doesn't make it less real. It does give us a powerful angle for dealing with it, though.

This all adds up to, in my mind, you have to basically just frakking suck it up. Adjust your life. Do what you can to maximize your function and ability to cope with pain, and that might not actually = less pain. Sometimes living better is having MORE pain, not less.

This is my little speech that I've used with almost every chronic pain patient I have ever encountered. It's not a magic wand as far as speeches go. I've never not had something good come of it, though. Does it mean these patients quit taking opiates or their pursuit of them? No. Does it make me less of a bad guy, someone empathetic, and in the same book if not on the same page? Yes. And that can create a therapeutic alliance, and it frequently will get a patient to consider at least one other thing they could possibly do to improve their lives, and often even DO such a thing. And that's a win in my book. Because I believe my speech, it's not about cure/fix/is it real blah blah, it's about the room for improvement.
 
Last edited:
Aww you had me. Would be a great study....would never pass an IRB in America, China maybe.



I whole-heatedly agree about the narcotics issues, this travesty can be discussed at length in a thread all by itself. But let me ask this: no narcotics, and now we're saying no nsaids/tylenol (they don't work, and they come with their fair share of side effects), we try PT/OT/Social Work/Case Management....say none of that works....then we go to 'alternative medicine' things like acupuncture, thai chi, bikram yoga, whatever have you. At what point does this leave the realm of Medicine and enter that of Apothicarysm? I didn't go to medical school to rx bikram yoga....nor do my patients need to see me to get that.

I'll ask a couple questions again (I'm genuinely curious):

1. Have any of your ever encountered a patient with fibromyalgia that does not have a mental health issue? (I'm firmly convinced that fibro is not a disease entity in an of itself, but rather a symptom of an underlying mental health issues, that's not adequately treated.....am I way off?)

2. Ever seen fibro resolve? (you treated the PTSD, and the fibro went away)

Thankfully I don't see much fibromyalgia unless it's an overlap IBS patient. To that end, the vast majority of my IBS patients get significantly better. The more malignant, "end stage" IBS patients often have significant co-existing mental health and social issues. I sometimes try to refer them to psych but those guys are almost universally not interested in these patients.
 
I'll ask a couple questions again (I'm genuinely curious):

1. Have any of your ever encountered a patient with fibromyalgia that does not have a mental health issue? (I'm firmly convinced that fibro is not a disease entity in an of itself, but rather a symptom of an underlying mental health issues, that's not adequately treated.....am I way off?)

2. Ever seen fibro resolve? (you treated the PTSD, and the fibro went away)

1. Agree that there are strong associations with mental health and childhood abuse issues. But I have a handful of patients with bad RA or SLE who seem pretty normal psychologically and still end up with fibro--I think there's something about the chronic pain from their organic disease that can predispose them to hyperalgesia and chronic pain. So there are (rare) exceptions to the fibro-mental health connection.

1.5. One of the problems with fibro not seeming like a unique disease entity is that some docs call all chronic pain fibromyalgia, which is incorrect. Fibromyalgia is a chronic pain syndrome with prominent hyperalgesia/dysesthesia, fatigue, and exercise intolerance. You have to peel that subgroup away from all the other chronic pain patients.

2. I've never personally seen fibro resolve completely. But getting depression and anxiety under control really makes a huge difference with fibro--I don't know if that's because the mental health issues are driving the fibro, or if coping strategies for depression are also good coping strategies for pain.
 
Top