Fighting for author position

[dohlo]

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I am a lab technician who has been working alongside a PhD candidate for almost 3 years. There have been other people to help us with this project along the way but it has really been myself and this PhD student for the duration of the project. We are now submitting a paper (to a top journal), and it looks like instead of being the second author, like I thought I would be, I am now the fourth. This upsets me a bit, and I am wondering how much I should fight for a bump of two positions.

The first person to bump me down is a post doc that was in our lab when the project began. She came up with much of the ideas for the project, but left the group for another job about a year and a half ago, before any real progress was made.

The second person to bump me down is a post doc who joined our lab about 6 months ago, and has helped the PhD student a lot with the finishing touch experiments, and also some tweaking of the paper, since she has some experience with this.

I feel that I am being bumped for the sole reason that they are post-docs and I am a "lab tech." Within our lab, we all pretty much do the same work, and I am treated much more as a grad student, designing and carrying out my own experiments rather than as someone who serves to simply do the bitch work no one else wants to do. I have contributed more than the two of these postdocs put together as far as data and figures, and am feeling that I am getting the short end of the stick. The paper has not been submitted yet, so I can still fight for some position, but I don't know if its worth it. FYI I have been accepted into med school already and don't necessarily know if I will ever do this type of research in my future, so I don't know if 2 positions is really worth a fuss.

suggestions?

 

[bucks2010]

FYI I have been accepted into med school already and don't necessarily know if I will ever do this type of research in my future, so I don't know if 2 positions is really worth a fuss.

Don't worry about it. It's irrelevant and not worth the bridges you may burn trying to move yourself 2 positions up.

Besides, the post-docs need the pub more than you.

 

[NickNaylor]

Know your place in the hierarchy. Their need as post-docs for getting publications is more important than your need as a pre-med for publications. Let it go and be happy that you got a pub at all.

 

[BushidoBrown]

I am a lab technician who has been working alongside a PhD candidate for almost 3 years. There have been other people to help us with this project along the way but it has really been myself and this PhD student for the duration of the project. We are now submitting a paper (to a top journal), and it looks like instead of being the second author, like I thought I would be, I am now the fourth. This upsets me a bit, and I am wondering how much I should fight for a bump of two positions.

The first person to bump me down is a post doc that was in our lab when the project began. She came up with much of the ideas for the project, but left the group for another job about a year and a half ago, before any real progress was made.

The second person to bump me down is a post doc who joined our lab about 6 months ago, and has helped the PhD student a lot with the finishing touch experiments, and also some tweaking of the paper, since she has some experience with this.

I feel that I am being bumped for the sole reason that they are post-docs and I am a "lab tech." Within our lab, we all pretty much do the same work, and I am treated much more as a grad student, designing and carrying out my own experiments rather than as someone who serves to simply do the bitch work no one else wants to do. I have contributed more than the two of these postdocs put together as far as data and figures, and am feeling that I am getting the short end of the stick. The paper has not been submitted yet, so I can still fight for some position, but I don't know if its worth it. FYI I have been accepted into med school already and don't necessarily know if I will ever do this type of research in my future, so I don't know if 2 positions is really worth a fuss.

suggestions?

Intellectual input >>> Performing experiments

However much credit you think that you're entitled to, it's really not worth fighting over; any authorship is a good authorship when it comes to med school.

 

[kami333]

Not worth fighting for.

If it was for first or co-first it would be a different story, but 2nd vs 4th is not worth it.

But I do feel your pain, I've lost projects/authorship to grad students and postdocs on the basis that they need it more than I (which is true).

Anyways, congrats on the pub🙂

 

[random cell]

I don't want to say you don't deserve 2nd author, but from what you wrote it doesn't seem like you do based on your contributions compared to the post-docs. Also, your role is a lab technician and despite being "treated like a grad student" that ultimately means little to nothing and you are lucky to even be on the paper based on experiences in labs I've been in. Lastly, anything after first author doesn't really matter. 2nd = 4th = 10th unless 2nd author and 1st author were co-first authors. Otherwise it will make little to no difference to adcoms that you were 2nd author vs 4th author since as your situation demonstrates the order is highly variable and due to various circumstances out of your control. First author is rarely disputed because that person definitely did the majority of the work/writing and that is why it is so impressive to have a first author publication as a pre-med. Hope that helps.

 

[dohlo]

ok, thanks for the input, I guess I'll just let it go. I am just not really sure how important the order really is once you get past the first author position. However much importance, I guess they need it more than me. I will take The Rock's advice

Commence countdown to my 2-week notice

 

[WeAreNotRobots]

Coming up with the main ideas that serve as the groundwork for a project is essential. Finishing-touch experiments that make a paper worthy for submission is also clutch (I've seen this even qualify someone for co-authorship for only a few weeks of work on a multi-year project...in a top journal). Doing the grunt work...not nearly as central as the other contributions.

Be glad you are getting your name on it. Congrats!

 

[DrBowtie]

Be glad you made it as an author and not just an acknowledgment. Being behind those 3 definitely sounds pretty fair in terms of value added to the project.

 

[rHinO1]

Based on your explanation, the order seems to be correct. The order of authorship is typically based on intellectual contribution to the project. Intellectual contribution consists of forming the direction the project will take (hypothesis), types of experiments to test the hypothesis (i.e, experimental design), and analysis of the data. Performing the actual experiments is important, but not more so than the things previously mentioned.

I am not saying you didn't contribute intellectually, but you have to ask yourself if you truly out contributed (intellectually) the people being listed as authors 2 & 3.


Edit: btw, congrats on the authorship, it is an awesome accomplishment.

 

[captaincbr]

ok, thanks for the input, I guess I'll just let it go. I am just not really sure how important the order really is once you get past the first author position. However much importance, I guess they need it more than me. I will take The Rock's advice

Commence countdown to my 2-week notice

If there is a lot (>4) authors for a publication, the only authorship that really matters is either first or last. First is the one who came up with the idea, conducted research, and/or wrote the paper. The last is usually the PI, who oversee the entire project.

You can also think about your issue this way (although I know it's already resolved): The post-docs who you were working with will hopefully get a faculty position sometime in the future. When you graduate from med school, they will be people in your network that can help you get residency/fellowship. Also, if you keep in touch with them, they might even have a faculty position available, and your name will be bumped up solely because you know the faculty there.

I am in a top hospital also doing some research, and the docs/post-docs I talk with say this is the sad truth. It's all about who you know, especially for competitive fields.

If i may ask, to which journal is your paper being considered for submission?

 

[Siverhideo1985]

In this arena, sadly, **** always rolls down-hill.

 

[Frazier]

ok, thanks for the input, I guess I'll just let it go. I am just not really sure how important the order really is once you get past the first author position. However much importance, I guess they need it more than me. I will take The Rock's advice

Commence countdown to my 2-week notice

Good idea, OP. Don't run the risk of burning bridges by starting any sort of issue. Congrats on getting a project out the door.

 

[LifeTake2]

I feel that I am being bumped for the sole reason that they are post-docs and I am a "lab tech."

You answered your own question. Like it or not, they are not going to put a lab-tech above their own names. The PhD that the 2 of them has trumps anything they did or didn't actually do.