Financing a dental education

[DMDWANNABEE]

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I apologize for forum jumping, but I want the opinion of people who have some experience regarding my question.

I am trying to find the best way to pay for dental school.

I have already applied for the HPSP, but I want to look into other options for lessening the debt burden.

I have 5 interviews so far, but the price tag of each school is quite high. I feel that taking on 400K+ in student loans with compounding interest just might not be responsible.

Although I am about to start some pretty intensive research on this, I would love a few pointers as to the best places to start looking. In other words, which options seem to be working out best once in d-school and beyond.

Thanks in advance.

 

[DMDWANNABEE]

*Cricket chirps*

 

[JLum]

There is no easy answer, student loans are likely entering a very bad bubble and are creating huge problems for those graduating. That said, I'll try my best to answer as I too have strained over this very question.

1. HPSP military program
2. NHSC scholarship program
3. Move to somewhere and work for a year to establish residency
4. Don't go to dental school

I would not go in debt over 350k for dentistry. It's likely just not worth it. I don't know what you enjoy learning/doing so this part is difficult.
You could do an MBA at a good school and make good money, get paid to do a science based PhD, start a company on the side while working a mediocre job if you are an entrepreneur, start organic farming (likely to yield lots of money in next 20 years, read Joel Salatin's books if interested). Med school is a good option as there are more schools and in-state tuition is much less. If you are set on dentistry, do the scholarship program or move.

Good luck

 

[SeattleRDH]

There are some state-level public health programs with loan reimbursement. Washington has had one though I'm not sure if it's still in existence with current budget cuts.

Really, it's all about how much you will make post-graduation. If you want to be an associate in southern California good luck! I would research the future of dental markets. Read The Hammer's thread "Let's buy a dental practice"

 

[Erhatstil]

There is no easy answer, student loans are likely entering a very bad bubble and are creating huge problems for those graduating. That said, I'll try my best to answer as I too have strained over this very question.

1. HPSP military program
2. NHSC scholarship program
3. Move to somewhere and work for a year to establish residency
4. Don't go to dental school

I would not go in debt over 350k for dentistry. It's likely just not worth it. I don't know what you enjoy learning/doing so this part is difficult.
You could do an MBA at a good school and make good money, get paid to do a science based PhD, start a company on the side while working a mediocre job if you are an entrepreneur, start organic farming (likely to yield lots of money in next 20 years, read Joel Salatin's books if interested). Med school is a good option as there are more schools and in-state tuition is much less. If you are set on dentistry, do the scholarship program or move.

Good luck

for a lot of us, we take on that amount of debt because dentistry IS worth it

 

[JLum]

for a lot of us, we take on that amount of debt because dentistry IS worth it

Great, no one said that was wrong. Many dentists I know and others on Dental-Town said they would not do it again for that price. YMMV

 

[Erhatstil]

let's face it, if you decide not to go to dental school (after you've been accepted of course) because you can't justify spending that kind of money, you aren't serious enough about the profession. and remember, there are thousands of people that would take your seat in a heartbeat.

 

[happy0121]

for a lot of us, we take on that amount of debt because dentistry IS worth it

let's face it, if you decide not to go to dental school (after you've been accepted of course) because you can't justify spending that kind of money, you aren't serious enough about the profession. and remember, there are thousands of people that would take your seat in a heartbeat.

I dont think you can write someone off for not being serious about the profession if theyre not willing to spend a ridic amount of money. They're probly just confident they can get into some other school thats cheaper.. some people have options like that.
and if it was me, i wouldnt say its worth it without doing it myself first. yea we all want to become dentists and doing everything possible to be one sounds goods. but im sure everyones oppinions would go sour if after its all over and done with and they have a 350k+ loan to pay off.

 

[JLum]

let's face it, if you decide not to go to dental school (after you've been accepted of course) because you can't justify spending that kind of money, you aren't serious enough about the profession. and remember, there are thousands of people that would take your seat in a heartbeat.

What an ignorant assumption, that people "aren't serious enough." Perhaps some people just have a more experienced outlook on life; one where debt is a serious problem which creates masters and serfs. This post presents you as someone with little life experience and even less economic understanding. Perhaps, as the previous poster noted, some personal experience with debt would persuade you against making such brash generalizations about those who carefully weigh their options.

 

[jakey]

I'm a 3rd year, and I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I think the cutoff point for me would be 300k+ in debt. As it stands now I'm going to graduate with somewhere over 200k in debt, not terrible, but still a lot of money.

300k is the point where I don't think it would be worth it for me anymore, and I really do love dentistry. I know there are other things I could have done and been happy and relatively successful doing. From threads I've been reading here and on dental town I don't think a dental education is the "golden meal ticket" it once was. It's still a fantastic profession with so many benefits to it, but if you have to rack up 300k+ in debt for school, its going to be a long road to getting well established.

http://www.towniecentral.com/MessageBoard/thread.aspx?s=2&f=109&t=176212&v=1

I'm still happy with my choice, and I don't expect things to change after getting into the real world, but I know its going to be stressful and difficult at times, and there will likely be more than a few lean years in the beginning.

 

[JLum]

I'm a 3rd year, and I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I think the cutoff point for me would be 300k+ in debt. As it stands now I'm going to graduate with somewhere over 200k in debt, not terrible, but still a lot of money.

300k is the point where I don't think it would be worth it for me anymore, and I really do love dentistry. I know there are other things I could have done and been happy and relatively successful doing. From threads I've been reading here and on dental town I don't think a dental education is the "golden meal ticket" it once was. It's still a fantastic profession with so many benefits to it, but if you have to rack up 300k+ in debt for school, its going to be a long road to getting well established.

http://www.towniecentral.com/MessageBoard/thread.aspx?s=2&f=109&t=176212&v=1

I'm still happy with my choice, and I don't expect things to change after getting into the real world, but I know its going to be stressful and difficult at times, and there will likely be more than a few lean years in the beginning.

Thanks for the input, very well stated. I totally agree about the "golden ticket." Still lots of opportunity in dentistry, though.

 

[amalgamator42]

I think that going to another state for a year to establish residency is a great idea! 350,000 is a crushing amount of loans and IBR for 20 years is depressing...

 

[Erhatstil]

What an ignorant assumption, that people "aren't serious enough." Perhaps some people just have a more experienced outlook on life; one where debt is a serious problem which creates masters and serfs. This post presents you as someone with little life experience and even less economic understanding. Perhaps, as the previous poster noted, some personal experience with debt would persuade you against making such brash generalizations about those who carefully weigh their options.

honestly, if you aren't comfortable with debt, i can tell you (from experience) that this may not be the career for you. it's one thing to be inquisitive about the cost of school and what not, but you seem more concerned about money than anything else. atleast you realize this isn't a profession thats going to make you rich.

 

[JLum]

honestly, if you aren't comfortable with debt, i can tell you (from experience) that this may not be the career for you. it's one thing to be inquisitive about the cost of school and what not, but you seem more concerned about money than anything else. atleast you realize this isn't a profession thats going to make you rich.

Well, I guess that's it! Better forfeit my acceptance and try something new because I am not comfortable with debt, and I'll never be "rich."🙄 😆

 

[jay47]

What an ignorant assumption, that people "aren't serious enough." Perhaps some people just have a more experienced outlook on life; one where debt is a serious problem which creates masters and serfs. This post presents you as someone with little life experience and even less economic understanding. Perhaps, as the previous poster noted, some personal experience with debt would persuade you against making such brash generalizations about those who carefully weigh their options.

I think that thinking responsibly about the enormous amount of debt you may accumulate shows you are even more serious and responsible about what you are doing. Let's face it, there will always be those people who write it off as "the price you pay" or "everyone else does it so I have to as well". That's bull**** and I'm going to call them out on it. Everyone did the exact same thing with regards to the home lending market and look where that got us. $350,000+ IS NOT A SMALL AMOUNT OF MONEY! I have made several posts on SDN with actual calculations about how much monthly payments will be, how much you'll have to make to live comfortably etc...but it's not as easy as some may assume.

Don't just assume that because some 40 year old dentist is making $300K that you are gonna step right out and start making $300K or even close. They paid their dues, and yes, they bought their practice and built it over a period of years most likely. Patients aren't going to come to you because you are the best thing since sliced bread. And a Yes, there are people with previous connections, previous support, etc...but you aren't going to have the physical ability to work 7 days a week like you think you may. Trust me on this one.

Thankfully, I go to one of the cheapest schools in the nation, so I won't be in but around $120K in the hole, but I still thought long and hard about the financial decision I would be making. It will still take me about 5 years to pay this off given my expected income.

GL to you.

 

[JLum]

I think that thinking responsibly about the enormous amount of debt you may accumulate shows you are even more serious and responsible about what you are doing. Let's face it, there will always be those people who write it off as "the price you pay" or "everyone else does it so I have to as well". That's bull**** and I'm going to call them out on it. Everyone did the exact same thing with regards to the home lending market and look where that got us. $350,000+ IS NOT A SMALL AMOUNT OF MONEY! I have made several posts on SDN with actual calculations about how much monthly payments will be, how much you'll have to make to live comfortably etc...but it's not as easy as some may assume.

Don't just assume that because some 40 year old dentist is making $300K that you are gonna step right out and start making $300K or even close. They paid their dues, and yes, they bought their practice and built it over a period of years most likely. Patients aren't going to come to you because you are the best thing since sliced bread. And a Yes, there are people with previous connections, previous support, etc...but you aren't going to have the physical ability to work 7 days a week like you think you may. Trust me on this one.

Thankfully, I go to one of the cheapest schools in the nation, so I won't be in but around $120K in the hole, but I still thought long and hard about the financial decision I would be making. It will still take me about 5 years to pay this off given my expected income.

GL to you.

👍 It amazes me how people have the notion of being "comfortable" with debt, specifically huge amounts which can never be written off in bankruptcy. I should slap myself for questioning how this economy is on life support, this thread sums up the misguided financial ideology which has brought America to it's knees. That somehow any amount of debt is acceptable, and questioning the notion of a career with respect to debt now makes one an irresponsible, money-hungry tyrant...

 

[jakey]

Not to mention its pretty clear we are in a huge student loan bubble right now. It's awfully similar to the housing bubble a few years back, when anyone could get a loan for any amount of money, cause houses always increase in price, right?

Nowadays we can borrow any amount of money to go to school, and people have proven they will pay almost ANYTHING to go to dental school. The end result is schools increase tuition more and more every year because people will pay it, and the government will loan it to students.

My school is a state school, and it raises tuition a minimum of 10% a year since I've been here, and one year we saw over a 20% hike in tuition.

Just 10-15 years ago people were graduating with less than half as much average debt as today, and interest rates were also much much lower (I've heard of many people that consolidated at under 3% back then). Tuition increases have far outpaced inflation, and the interest rates we are paying are really high as well.

It's going to be interesting when the student loan bubble bursts.

I think it is ill advised to enter dental school without considering these things.

Makes me wish my parents were paying for my school...

 

[Erhatstil]

👍 It amazes me how people have the notion of being "comfortable" with debt, specifically huge amounts which can never be written off in bankruptcy. I should slap myself for questioning how this economy is on life support, this thread sums up the misguided financial ideology which has brought America to it's knees. That somehow any amount of debt is acceptable, and questioning the notion of a career with respect to debt now makes one an irresponsible, money-hungry tyrant...

versus what? being uncomfortable with debt? my financial ideology is so asinine that i'd probably pay twice what i am now to go to dental school. after all, it's people like me that destroy the american economy 🙂

 

[comatose]

As a practicing dentist, I really urge each and every one of you pre-dents out there to seriously consider your options. Dentistry itself is a very stressful job, and with a down economy that's not going to improve in the foreseeable future, ridiculous tuition hikes among most dental schools, new schools opening up pumping out more graduates, PPO insurances taking over, etc., I want you all to know all of the facts about the profession before jumping in blindly. It is very, very hard work and a lot of stress to pay off such a large sum of money. While you are paying off debt for years, your same-age college buddies will be saving up and investing and have fairly mature retirement accounts while you are just beginning to establish yours. You then will have a practice loan (if you choose to open your office, which you pretty much have to if you are a dentist b/c of all the dead-end associate jobs out there) that other professionals don't have to deal with. In the end, it is not worth it anymore in my opinion. It used to be when tuition was low enough and the economy was thriving, but that is not the case anymore. If you want to be a debt slave for years, be a dentist; if not, get a science/math/engineering degree and live without the added stress.

 

[JLum]

versus what? being uncomfortable with debt? my financial ideology is so asinine that i'd probably pay twice what i am now to go to dental school. after all, it's people like me that destroy the american economy 🙂

(With amazement and a hint of disbelief) Umm yes, uncomfortable with debt.

Can't speak with certainty, but if your lifestyle is very debt laden, your certainly aiding the fractional reserve banking ponzi scheme. Trying to make light financial ignorance won't change a darn thing, it's still very real. If you didn't get the memo, DEBT killed America. It almost always works to the detriment of financial responsibility and savings.

Hopefully you change your tune when the payments + interest come calling. Best of luck in school, they won't be teaching much on personal finance. 😉

 

[Erhatstil]

(With amazement and a hint of disbelief) Umm yes, uncomfortable with debt.

Can't speak with certainty, but if your lifestyle is very debt laden, your certainly aiding the fractional reserve banking ponzi scheme. Trying to make light financial ignorance won't change a darn thing, it's still very real. If you didn't get the memo, DEBT killed America. It almost always works to the detriment of financial responsibility and savings.

Hopefully you change your tune when the payments + interest come calling. Best of luck in school, they won't be teaching much on personal finance. 😉

i love this statement and it's exactly why i told that if you consider going to dental to school to be financially irresponsible, it's not a good career for you.

if i'm uncomfortable with debt instead of being comfortable with it, is it going to change how much i owe? nope. and when that grim reaper of a debt collector comes knocking on my door for the money i owe, you know what i'll do? pay him what i owe him (you're prob thinking oh man this kid has no idea how much money he'll owe after that interest compounds over 5, 10, 15 years haha). and yeah i'd still pay twice what i do now for this profession.

i could listen to a hundred dentists tell me that this profession isn't worth the money we pay for school and a hundred more tell me they make 300k a year. who cares. i consider myself lucky to be apathetic about personal income (as long as i can pay off that grim reaper guy till next month).

 

[yappy]

Most my friends with science degrees work for NIH labs making very little. Newgrad engineerers (who took ~5 yrs getting through UG without working) have alot of UG debt and NO job or if they do they're @ 40k max and I've heard much of the computer engineering positions are getting outsourced.The business grads I know are all unemployed as their degrees are a dime a dozen.

Thanks for the warning but I'll take that 100k-200k in debt from select privite or my state dental school for the prospects of dentistry over those anyday. In 4 yrs few my age will have savings - they'll be lucky to have made a dent in their students loans or even have a job that lends itself to a career - much less business ownership.

As for not being worth it anymore - 3 associates I've sampled who have graduated 1-2 yrs ago have told me they average about 10-14k/mo before taxes. The owners I've shadowed have 5day / wk operations and dont take PPO or medicare/caid. Is this different from what you're facing or is this what you believe is not worth the effort anymore?

I'm not trying to doubt your statements because debt is serious but I think it's good to paint an accurate picture of the prospects of dentistry vs other professions.

EDIT: Just wanted to point this out. Schools dont raise tuition because they want to bankroll off gov loans. They do it because state voters rubber stamp 'NO' to maintaining state tuition subsities. At least in my state - costs have maintained for 30 yrs adjusted for inflation yet they have repealed tuition from covering 2/3rd in the 80's to only 1/3 today. The forever-young generation that got theirs paid for by the greatest WWII generation is giving us the bird.

As a practicing dentist, I really urge each and every one of you pre-dents out there to seriously consider your options. Dentistry itself is a very stressful job, and with a down economy that's not going to improve in the foreseeable future, ridiculous tuition hikes among most dental schools, new schools opening up pumping out more graduates, PPO insurances taking over, etc., I want you all to know all of the facts about the profession before jumping in blindly. It is very, very hard work and a lot of stress to pay off such a large sum of money. While you are paying off debt for years, your same-age college buddies will be saving up and investing and have fairly mature retirement accounts while you are just beginning to establish yours. You then will have a practice loan (if you choose to open your office, which you pretty much have to if you are a dentist b/c of all the dead-end associate jobs out there) that other professionals don't have to deal with. In the end, it is not worth it anymore in my opinion. It used to be when tuition was low enough and the economy was thriving, but that is not the case anymore. If you want to be a debt slave for years, be a dentist; if not, get a science/math/engineering degree and live without the added stress.

 

[comatose]

Most my friends with science degrees work for NIH labs making very little. Newgrad engineerers (who took ~5 yrs getting through UG without working) have alot of UG debt and NO job or if they do they're @ 40k max and I've heard much of the computer engineering positions are getting outsourced.The business grads I know are all unemployed as their degrees are a dime a dozen.

Thanks for the warning but I'll take that 100k-200k in debt from select privite or my state dental school for the prospects of dentistry over those anyday. In 4 yrs few my age will have savings - they'll be lucky to have made a dent in their students loans or even have a job that lends itself to a career - much less business ownership.

As for not being worth it anymore - 3 associates I've sampled who have graduated 1-2 yrs ago have told me they average about 10-14k/mo before taxes. The owners I've shadowed have 5day / wk operations and dont take PPO or medicare/caid. Is this different from what you're facing or is this what you believe is not worth the effort anymore?

I'm not trying to doubt your statements because debt is serious but I think it's good to paint an accurate picture of the prospects of dentistry vs other professions.

EDIT: Just wanted to point this out. Schools dont raise tuition because they want to bankroll off gov loans. They do it because state voters rubber stamp 'NO' to maintaining state tuition subsities. At least in my state - costs have maintained for 30 yrs adjusted for inflation yet they have repealed tuition from covering 2/3rd in the 80's to only 1/3 today. The forever-young generation that got theirs paid for by the greatest WWII generation is giving us the bird.

My post is meant as a perspective from one practicing dentist who, I am sure, speaks for many, many new dentists trying to make it in a tough economy. This is not a walk in the park as some might think. Just as you know people who have graduated with engineering degrees who have not done well, I have graduated with several engineering and math majors who are actually all doing very well and have solid 401Ks at the age of 30. Two specifically have become software craftsmen, and have annual salaries in the low six figures. They are able to have families and be okay with savings in the bank, all because they don't have that six figure debt, and time has been on their side. As they were working, we were spending. Do you think every dentist that graduates earns six figures each year they have been working? Chances are that if you have a start up practice, you will not be earning six figures for the first couple years, plus you will have that added bank loan of running your practice. Also, many associate positions are not full-time anymore due to lack of patients. You have to pay for your own health insurance, malpractice, time off, and fund your own retirement as a dentist. You will most likely be hired as an independent contractor the first few years out, so in addition to all of these added expenses you will have the self-employment tax. You cannot really argue with me that in this economy, becoming a dentist is just not as financially rewarding as it use to be, and, if you want financial security in the long run and sooner, I believe there are better options out there right now. I can't vouch for your area, but PPO is becoming the norm in this profession, and that certainly cannot be denied. These are just a few opinions from a practicing dentist. Please take it for what it's worth.

 

[yappy]

I do agree that it's most likely tougher in this economy than in a thriving one. One advantage the people you knew who went into engineering have are that they graduated 4+ years ago - not today. Insourcing and outsourcing are a problem for eng today. It's likely that by graduating 5 yrs ago in either dentistry or engineering would have been a better situation than now. But I tell you - under/unemployment is huge across the board right now for newly graduating UG students (engineering or not). Lets hope the economy improved within the shortest time possible!

Do you believe medicine offers better career options than dentistry? What about different niches offered in dentistry for those who do residencies?

Thanks for sharing your story. In todays economy it's difficult for us students to figure out a solid path - I'm starting to think there simply isn't one.

My post is meant as a perspective from one practicing dentist who, I am sure, speaks for many, many new dentists trying to make it in a tough economy. This is not a walk in the park as some might think. Just as you know people who have graduated with engineering degrees who have not done well, I have graduated with several engineering and math majors who are actually all doing very well and have solid 401Ks at the age of 30. Two specifically have become software craftsmen, and have annual salaries in the low six figures. They are able to have families and be okay with savings in the bank, all because they don't have that six figure debt, and time has been on their side. As they were working, we were spending. Do you think every dentist that graduates earns six figures each year they have been working? Chances are that if you have a start up practice, you will not be earning six figures for the first couple years, plus you will have that added bank loan of running your practice. Also, many associate positions are not full-time anymore due to lack of patients. You have to pay for your own health insurance, malpractice, time off, and fund your own retirement as a dentist. You will most likely be hired as an independent contractor the first few years out, so in addition to all of these added expenses you will have the self-employment tax. You cannot really argue with me that in this economy, becoming a dentist is just not as financially rewarding as it use to be, and, if you want financial security in the long run and sooner, I believe there are better options out there right now. I can't vouch for your area, but PPO is becoming the norm in this profession, and that certainly cannot be denied. These are just a few opinions from a practicing dentist. Please take it for what it's worth.