Finch

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regisphilbin

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What do you guys think about Finch University of Health Sciences/Chicago Medical School?

Good? Bad? Okay?
What about the city, North Chicago?

How does it compare to other schools in the US?
Would you say its a tier 1 school?
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All I have to say is, that it's a medical school. You'll end up getting your MD just like the guy who went to Harvard.

I spoke to students during my interview, and they seem to be content w/ their educational experience. North Chicago seems somewhat boring, and you might need a car to be able to get out to the city.

But they all seem to be excited about their clinical years, which they spend in downtown Chicago. Cook County hospital seems to be quite renown.

That said, the school itself does NOT rank among teir 1 schools, whatever that's supposed to mean.
 
I wrote out a whole reply but I accidentally deleted it--basically Doggy said everything I was going to say.

It is not tier 1, but all US med schools will give you a good education. I would say it compares to NYMC, like it's the NYMC of the midwest.

There is a masters program there to help people get into med school who don't have high undergrad gpas, so that brings down the average stats of accepted matriculants, which may be a source of rumors of it being a bad school.

There is no university affiliated hospital, but there are many to choose from, and the city is a great place to be for 3rd and 4th years.

I will be going there in the Fall as of now. :)
 
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The city is very deserted. But the school will do you justice. I have a friend who went there and is currently doing a NeuroSurgery residency. So its competitive. But at first, get ready to get depressed, but you'll be so busy with school, you won't need a social life.
 
I don't think you will necessarily be depressed---unless you don't lose that attitude. :wink:

There are restaurants and movies in North Chicago, and also a few malls. Now contrary to SDN belief, I'm not some crazy club girl--only when I'm on vacation. I think the school could be a nice atmosphere--they will have a new student center and a new gym in the building, and if you live in the Woodlands, it could have a college campus-like feel to it. Fun is what you make of it :)

And I would also like to emphasize how cool Chicago is. It's 30-45 minutes from the school, but you will live in Chicago for the last 2 years. The patient population will be excellent and the city will make life for a stressed out 3rd year much more enjoyable. There are plenty of med schools in boring locations, but CHICAGO is one of the biggest cities in the US, and very accesible while at CMS.

I'm so excited, can you tell? :D

and p.s. The building is so nice! The library is huge, plenty of computers, open 24 hours a day, etc. I know the looks aren't a big deal, but if you're gonna spend a lot of time somewhere, it's nice to be comfy :)

regisphilbin were you accepted? Do you plan on going?
 
I was actually not accepted into the med school.
but i applied to the masters program there as well... as a backup... and got in.

so i might be there for the masters
i am very fond of chicago, and would like to go to med school in that area in the future.

still considering it though.
 
I met two masters students during my interview and both seemed happy. I think the courses you take that year count towards the med school curriculum, so as an MS1 you would have a lot of free time. :) I think it's a good opportunity---and during your MS1 extra time you can do some extracuricular activities like shadowing, volunteering, etc, which will give you good experience for later on. :D

Good luck whatever you choose :)
 
None of the four students I met there seemed happy and all of them explained that their reason for attending there was because it was the only school they got in to. It is also important to note that it is very far from the city of Chicago and in an extremely depressed area economically. However, like others said, it is a U.S. medical school and thus deserves respect. I'd probably choose the majority of other schools over it, however.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by none:
•None of the four students I met there seemed happy and all of them explained that their reason for attending there was because it was the only school they got in to. It is also important to note that it is very far from the city of Chicago and in an extremely depressed area economically. However, like others said, it is a U.S. medical school and thus deserves respect. I'd probably choose the majority of other schools over it, however.•••••Hey none,

Have you decided where you'll be going this fall?
:)
 
Like I said before, it will be a happy place next year because I'll be there! <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" />

But seriously, I think many people only get into one medical school...you'll especially see that at the lower tier schools. I think it's a valid reason for attending. :wink:

I agree the area leaves something to be desired, and letter grades are not what I was looking forward to when applying to med school. :(

I go to an undergrad full of Harvard rejects who are pissy about it at the beginning. It is not a social school either. I think one has to make the best of each situation.

I would choose the 3 schools I'm waiting to hear from over Finch (GW, Temple, BU), but I would probably attend Finch over U Vermont because of the proximity to a big city.
 
It is definitely a world apart from Chicago. It's more than twice as far away from Chicago as Northwestern's Evanston campus is... takes 40-45 minutes without traffic. I don't think North Chicago seemed economically depressed, but there's nothing there. However, that could be an advantage because it's a less distracting environment.

Finch is like a self-contained and isolated community of medical (and some other) students. It's one big building containing everything and then there's the Woodlands apartment right next door. There's basically nothing else of interest nearby. I know that Finch works their students really hard. Teaching is about as traditional as can be. Maybe the curriculum and the no-distraction environment contribute to good board scores.

Students appeared neither happy nor unhappy about the place. I think most were just looking forward to going back to California with MD degrees 2 years later.

Finch's bad points are that it's very expensive and that I hear their clinical education sucks. There's a lot less clinical exposure in the first two years, compared to other schools. In the 3rd and 4th years, yes, you do get to live in downtown Chicago. But, because Finch does not have a primary affiliated hospital, you will be driving around a lot to different hospitals all over. Other than Cook Cty, none of the clerkship sites are all that renowned.

The bottomline is this. As others have pointed out, it IS a medical school and it will make your dream come true. That's really all that matters to average candidates like me. And I know I'll make friends and manage to find happiness if I end up there. But if I had other medical school choices, I probably wouldn't go there.
 
thanks... you are all very helpful.
i was pretty depressed about not getting in...
So, Im leaning towards accepting this masters.

im hoping it helps me to get in to meds, either at Finch or elsewhere.
 
My pharmacist went to the university of Illinois over 40 years ago. When I explained to him that I had applied to Finch he just kinda laughed and said, "why on earth would you want to apply there?" It was the laughing stock of Chicago then and over 40 years later its reputation is still not good. What gives? You would think after all this time and with the high tuition they charge they could somehow improve on their situation. Don't get me wrong it's a US allopathic school and that alone deserves respect but why is it perpetually one of the bottom tier schools?
 
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•••quote:•••Originally posted by medicine2006:
[QB]My pharmacist went to the university of Illinois over 40 years ago. When I explained to him that I had applied to Finch he just kinda laughed and said, "why on earth would you want to apply there?" It was the laughing stock of Chicago then and over 40 years later its reputation is still not good. What gives? [QB]••••this info probably isn't useful to anyone, but for the sake of explaining one of the reasons why finch has such a stigma to it: the rumor about the school had been for a long time that you didn't need to be overly competitive to be admitted--you could buy your way in. something like a lump sum of $20K was sufficient, and as a result, finch became a school for rich kids who didn't want to work to get into another allopathic med school. how true this really is, i have no idea--i just know that this is what i had always been told about finch and it's always been the joke about the school. rumors like that are very difficult to shake. there are some distinct drawbacks to the school but it's a US allopathic med school, it will give you the MD, and it will get you where you want to be.

no one take offense to this, because offending someone is not my intent. it's just that so many people wonder where the stigma to the school comes from and i'm just repeating what i'd heard about the school and, true or false, what certainly contributes to people having a negative impression of the school.
 
sandflea,

next time include my whole quote. I did say that I believed it deserves respect becasue it's a US allopathic school. I just wanted to know why their administration hasn't taken steps to make its reputation better. MCPHU had a bad rep and the school is working real hard to dispell that and it seems to be slowly working.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by medicine2006:
•My pharmacist went to the university of Illinois over 40 years ago. When I explained to him that I had applied to Finch he just kinda laughed and said, "why on earth would you want to apply there?" It was the laughing stock of Chicago then and over 40 years later its reputation is still not good. What gives? You would think after all this time and with the high tuition they charge they could somehow improve on their situation. Don't get me wrong it's a US allopathic school and that alone deserves respect but why is it perpetually one of the bottom tier schools?•••••Ouch.

I asked my interviewer at CMS to tell me one bad thing about it and he said that the college moved to North Chicago (I think in 1980?) to serve the community there, because Chicago had so many medical schools, but they were not welcomed by that community. Maybe that's a source of bad rumors.

And I'm trying not to get angry by this thread as I have done in the past about people ragging on CMS, but I think I might throw my computer at the wall. :mad:
 
Well, once you're in medical school, you will realize how little the "reputation" of your school matters (unless you're Harvard, Hopkins, UCSF, top 10...).

I have met students from the Chicago area colleges, and I will say I was much more impressed by CMS students than those from a couple of the other schools (one public, one private), both of which were pass/fail schools. It seemed to me their students just weren't motivated, and in school for other reasons than the love of medicine.

I don't know why CMS has such a poor reputation with pre-meds, because I find CMS med students very motivated to do well.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by mcwmark:
•I don't know why CMS has such a poor reputation with pre-meds, because I find CMS med students very motivated to do well.•••••The reason is because stupid rumors such as someone relaying that their pharmacist said it was the "laughing stock" of Chicago get passed around by premeds. I think doctors do not feel the same way about CMS as premeds do. I know this because I have spoken to several prominent physicians, and CMS students match into competitive specialties.

Thanks for posting mcwmark :)
 
medicine06-

I forgot to ask my pharmacist what he thought of the schools I applied to. DAMN! I really am an idiot.
 
I just got done talking with a plastic surgeon, and he basically said get in to the best school possible. Competition is very fierce for many fields such as neuro, plastic, ENT, and derm. I asked him, so I asked him about UIC, well, basically they would rank that at a much lower tier than a top 30. That said, its important to realize that if you have the choice to go to a higher ranked school take it.
 
Do any U.S. allopathic schools not tend to match well?
 
Sorry, I meant they match well into competitive residencies. Here is the link to their match list:

<a href="http://www.finchcms.edu/osa/Resources/2002mr.htm" target="_blank">http://www.finchcms.edu/osa/Resources/2002mr.htm</a>

Last year's list was a little different, and they had 3 match into derm (the specialty I have been interested in).
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by medicine2006:
•sandflea,

next time include my whole quote. I did say that I believed it deserves respect becasue it's a US allopathic school. I just wanted to know why their administration hasn't taken steps to make its reputation better. MCPHU had a bad rep and the school is working real hard to dispell that and it seems to be slowly working.•••••from what i understand the administration IS taking steps to improve its reputation. my whole point in posting was that rumors can be hard to shake, whether they were at some point based in truth or not. i didn't say i believed in the rumor, because frankly it seems too far-fetched to me--just that something like that can certainly affect someone's impression of a school, if that person doesn't take the time to thoroughly research a school and form their own opinions, and may contribute to why many people have a negative impression of finch. my whole point is that far-fetched rumors like this get exaggerated and passed around by numerous premeds who don't stop to verify its truth--and lo and behold, all of a sudden a school has a negative reputation that it can't totally shake because a rumor got out of hand. finch probably has the biggest dark cloud hanging over it and it's all due to unsubstantiated rumors. we all have our own personal opinions about what we want in a med school, but there is no getting around the fact that every med school in this country will give you that MD. we should all be happy that we're one of the 16K who actually got into med school, regardless of where we're headed. that's the big picture in all of this.

i meant no harm and i'm not trying to slam on finch. i'm starting to get really sorry that i ever posted at all because i can see how my post can be misconstrued. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by driven:
•The city is very deserted. But the school will do you justice. I have a friend who went there and is currently doing a NeuroSurgery residency. So its competitive. But at first, get ready to get depressed, but you'll be so busy with school, you won't need a social life.•••••driven - I hope I don't appear to be mean but you are such a downer about finch and about UIC from your previous posts. I don't know about you, but I for one am just happy going to med-school, wherever it is.
-your life is what you make it
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by regisphilbin:
•thanks... you are all very helpful.
i was pretty depressed about not getting in...
So, Im leaning towards accepting this masters.

im hoping it helps me to get in to meds, either at Finch or elsewhere.•••••hey Reg, before you look at finch with it's hefty MA price tag look at the 1yr MS at northwestern. It is in physio or neuro. no GRE's but you can submit MCAT's if you want, and they will take any sci/research based recs that you already may have had written for med-school apps. the nice thing is that you get a degree from NW and it is only 26K.
 
I meant match into competitive residencies too. Do any U.S. allopathic schools not tend to match well into competitive residencies?
 
I don't think UVM does--they are very primary-care oriented, and their match list doesn't seem to have a lot of the "competitive" specialties. I don't know about other schools, I just have the UVM list in front of me.

editing: I think this UVM list is hard to read, because it is listed by hospital rather than residency. I see several radiology and opthamology residencies scattered around.

I really don't know how to compare match lists that well...
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by none:
•I meant match into competitive residencies too. Do any U.S. allopathic schools not tend to match well into competitive residencies?•••••it's hard to determine this simply by looking at match lists because match lists don't give you any indication of how many people actually *applied* for a competitive residency, just how many actually obtained one. you'd have to get statistics on how many people who actually applied for a derm residency (for example) got one, not just looking at finite numbers.
 
I will add some more to this topic, because I've friends there and I've been to the campus.

First of all, the administration is trying hard to improve the reputation of the school. The recent merger with a podiatry school was one of Finch's efforts to try to put the school on the map. In another effort, the school tried to abruptly raise the admission standards for its masters students ~5 yrs ago to get into the medical school (that backfired when the school got sued). My friend at Finch told me that the administration really pushes its students to perform well on the boards.

I think some of the bad reputations are undeserved. I found the students at Finch to be very motivated and cooperative. I think the school's facilities are very good. My friends say that the professors are accessible and very competent.

Other aspects of the bad reputations are somewhat deserved. As I said in my other post, the clinical education is poor. There're quite a few med students there who got in through their masters program who quite honestly don't have the kind of background and well-roundedness that I'd expect from those pursuing a medical career. The school has suffered some PR faux pas (like the lawsuit that I mentioned). And I personally think North Chicago is really depressing.

To add my 2cents on their match list... don't forget that, this year, virtually all med schools (including Finch, NYMC, ...) enjoyed exceptionally good matches in primary care field. The nationwide trend is that med school graduates are turning away in droves from primary care and surgery and looking for stuff that allows good pay and lifestyle. So if you want to relate the matchlist to the school's reputation, the question I would ask is: how did Finch graduates match in competitive specialties? (It seems like you guys have discussed this point a little bit, so I guess I'm being a bit redundant)

In spite of all this, don't forget that Finch is a US allopathic school that will give you an MD degree. There's a lot to be said about that... especially for someone like me who still has zero acceptance. And, sure, Finch has a lot of negatives. But they're nothing you can't live with. Not to sound corny, but the more important thing is what you make of yourself once you get there.
 
otter, why do you say they have poor clinical education?

I want to share a PM I received last week from a 4th year CMS student to provide an opinion from a real student rather than just premed impressions from interview day. I posted a thread in the Allo forum with questions for CMS students, and this student was kind enough to send me this PM :)

•••quote:••• Congratulations on your acceptance. It does seem like a lot of people dump on the school. I've also overheard our student tourguides and it sounds like some of them are delivering a eulogy rather than a tour. But I am about to graduate from cms and having gone through everything from orientation to match I can honestly say that I am extremely happy with my education. I am just finishing a month-long surgery elective in South Africa at a hospital in Soweto. The people here say that I must be amazed by the amount of trauma I have seen this month, but frankly there was a higher volume of cases (also more critical) with a faster pace in my rotations at Cook County and Mt. Sinai Hospitals. The clinical experience is outstanding at cms. The first 2 years in North Chicago are admittedly dull, but then everyone moves to the city and a fun time is had by all.
Anyway, I thought you might be interested in this year's match results: <a href="http://www.finchcms.edu/osa/Resources/2002mr.htm" target="_blank">http://www.finchcms.edu/osa/Resources/2002mr.htm</a>
To answer the questions...I don't know if anything has changed, but there is PBL. When I went through, we picked one or two classes to do it for and we met in small groups to discuss cases in addition to attending lecture. There is an A, B, C, F system for most of the required courses. Perhaps that does make it more competitive, but the program directors with whom I interviewed this year said they were pleased to see an actual GPA. Anyway, please write if you have any questions. And welcome!
••••
 
Dear Dr. Foxy,

I did not mean my post to offend. I am sorry I ever relayed that story about my pharmacist. It just happens that he is a close family friend and I was actually defending CMS and my CHOICE to apply there. I was merely relaying the fact that the old bad rep lingers on in older professionals' mind. I was wondering why more effort has not been put into improving this rep so that the old rep would die off. I guess I was wrong and that CMS is trying to up its rep. THis same pharmacist also took shots at the school that I will be attending, Howard. Again I am sorry to Foxy and anyone else I have offended.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Doctora Foxy:
•otter, why do you say they have poor clinical education?

I want to share a PM I received last week from a 4th year CMS student to provide an opinion from a real student rather than just premed impressions from interview day. •••••Much of what I said were not my "premed impressions," but what I heard from real students (my friends). I talked about the clinical education at Finch in my first post, but I can discuss it again. There's not as much clinical exposure and clinical education in the first two years, so Finch students may not feel as prepared heading into clerkships in the third year. Finch does not have a primary affiliated teaching hospital (this has some consequences, one of them being that you'll be driving around more). Finch's network of clerkship sites does not measure up (although Cook County is excellent). Don't forget, though, that much of the fourth year can be done outside Finch network.

Doctora Foxy, if you ask Finch's 4th year students what they think the school's strengths are, I think a majority will not say clinical education. But who cares? None of this is all that critical. Like I've tried to stress in my previous posts, focus on the fact that Finch will get you all the necessary knowledge and the MD degree. You will learn more than your brain is going to want to take in. All of this business about North Chicago and the clerkship sites and whatnot are just debates on the details. Don't let every discussion on Finch rain on your parade, because there're strengths and weaknesses with every med school. Even my #1 choice Tufts has weaknesses that are worth debating. And, remember, I would do anything to get an acceptance anywhere including Finch because what matters is that I get to become a doctor. So don't worry; be happy about your acceptance to Finch. :) Maybe I will join you there.
 
dr. foxy, you have a great attitude. i am tired of people ragging on CMS also. for one thing, they rejected me, but i will be attending another school in chicago (loyola). chicago is a fantastic city, full of students and energy. in regards to residency matching, i think if you do well in rotations and well on your boards, you will be competitive to match well. plenty of CMS students matched well last year and in other years. you just may have to work harder for it than at schools that typically have "better" names. i would also like to add that the chief of emergency medicine at the hospital where i work is a grad of CMS. he applied to med school for THREE years, then finally did finch's masters program and med school. he is by far the best physician i have ever encountered in his clinical skills, critical thinking ability, and bedside manner. i have met many residents (in many specialties) at my hospital who went to finch, and most of them are outstanding doctors and very well-rounded people, which is more than i can say for some of the antisocial and plastic-seeming residents coming out of more prestigious schools. that was not meant to knock "higher tiered" schools, i am only speaking from my own experiences in a teaching hospital. i just wish everyone would get off their high horses and realize that we will all be MDs and colleagues someday, let's forget this hierarchy ****. i will probably receive some flack for that comment, but let it fly. dr. foxy, congrats on your acceptance! maybe i will see you in chicago!
 
Otter, thanks for the clarification and the informative post. I wasn't referring to you when I said "premed impressions," that's why I skipped the line in between. Just wanted to share my little "proof" that not everyone there is unhappy.

I agree that their curriculum does not include much patient-contact in the early years, although the ICM (Intro to Clinical Medicine) class does go through the first 2 years and attempts to prepare you. My student host shadows a doctor every week, so I think there are ways to get what you want out of it, if you try. :)

I hope you get in :D

p.s. Editing: Thanks EMTGirl! :D Congrats to you too. A Chi-town SDNer told me that there is a program for all of the Chicago-area medical and allied health students to get together, so maybe we can organize that! <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" />
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Doctora Foxy:
•Sorry, I meant they match well into competitive residencies. Here is the link to their match list:

<a href="http://www.finchcms.edu/osa/Resources/2002mr.htm" target="_blank">http://www.finchcms.edu/osa/Resources/2002mr.htm</a>

Last year's list was a little different, and they had 3 match into derm (the specialty I have been interested in).•••••I'll admit that I've never had a very good opinion of Finch, but that match list is simply stellar. It's almost too good to believe. Maybe I misjudged Finch.
 
focker, are you being sarcastic? I know I've been acting like the Finch policia, but I'm defensive by nature. :p If you are being sarcastic, I never said Finch's match was better than a top tier school, just that Finch students can match into competitive specialties or hospitals if they excel.
 
I'm impressed by the match list too...5 neurosurg matches--there's only 128 in the whole nation, or about 1 per MD school. The EM matches are impressive too.

I didn't really look at the other specialties (I'm interested in neurosurg and EM!), but it appears to be good!
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Doctora Foxy:
•focker, are you being sarcastic? I know I've been acting like the Finch policia, but I'm defensive by nature. :p If you are being sarcastic, I never said Finch's match was better than a top tier school, just that Finch students can match into competitive specialties or hospitals if they excel.•••••No, I definitely wasn't being sarcastic. Finch was the only Chicago area school I didn't apply to last year, but I might if I knew that their students match so well. Honestly, that list looks better thatn any list I've seen from a Chicago school, including UChicago and Northwestern.
 
:clap: Sorry, I thought your comment was too good to be true :D :clap: Now I'm excited :)
 
p.s. Editing: Thanks EMTGirl! :D Congrats to you too. A Chi-town SDNer told me that there is a program for all of the Chicago-area medical and allied health students to get together, so maybe we can organize that!

hey foxy,

I was thinking of a get together for SDN chitowners for just before classes start. I think rxfudd does too. so what is this program??? I'd love to meet other chi-town sdners :clap:
 
I too had misconception about Finch. Thanks to Doctora Foxy, I am feeling better and better about this school :wink:

While participating in an intership during college, I encountered many UCLA med students as well as few med students from other schools. I vividly remember one 4th year student from Finch. When I introduced myself, I noticed how different he was from other students in that he looked very defensive when he told me that he was from Chicago med. At that time, I didn't know anything about med school ranks, so I thought it was really weird that he didn't seem as proud as others by the fact that he was a med school students. (other med students were quite cocky... I guess I got used to constantly being looked down-upon since I was only a "premed student")

Anyway, from that point on, I sort of knew that the school had low rep. Surrounded by ucla med professors/faculties, it didn't help that they didn't have very high regards for schools other than top-tiered schools.

But I have a friend who goes to CMS who is pretty happy about the school. And because I am pretty sure that I want to be a primary physician, I am happy that Finch has great matchlist.

:cool:
 
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