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[MLT2MT2DO]

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Not a typo. I am quitting the worst job in psychiatry and don't have another position to replace it. I won't do inpatient, C/L (yes, if the person doesn't know who they are or where they are, they lack decision making capacity, yes if this person jumped off of a bridge in an attempt to end their life they require inpatient psychiatric hospitalization) and I don't see kids and I want to move back home. This is the best position currently available. I think they are willing to pay a little less and give me ten extra days off per year. It obviously doesn't have the greatest vacation package available but I don't care. I need a job, they are most likely going to hire me. End of story. I am sick of speaking to endless recruiters telling them what I want only to be offered the exact opposite.

You realize just because you want the job doesn't mean you lose all negotiating powers, right? Sure you'll want to be less stubborn but the worst they are going to tell you is no, but more than likely at least try to meet you halfway. If you just accept the terms as is I can almost guarantee you, you are either leaving money or PTO on the table.

I worry your current mindset is what has you in your current position. You mention right now "it is getting hard to interview while working full time" but doing a little more work upfront could keep you from reliving this same scenario in another 12-24 months

 

[Mass Effect]

@futuredo32 please try to read the book Know Your Value. I'm not a huge fan of Mika B but I really think you need to read this book. You're undervaluing yourself and your experience. You're in high demand and they're getting you for less than you're worth and giving you less vacation than you deserve.

 

[futuredo32]

You realize just because you want the job doesn't mean you lose all negotiating powers, right? Sure you'll want to be less stubborn but the worst they are going to tell you is no, but more than likely at least try to meet you halfway. If you just accept the terms as is I can almost guarantee you, you are either leaving money or PTO on the table.

I worry your current mindset is what has you in your current position. You mention right now "it is getting hard to interview while working full time" but doing a little more work upfront could keep you from reliving this same scenario in another 12-24 months

I am not assertive. He was quite firm when he offered what he did and I didn't get the impression there was any negotiation. It was this is what we are offering.

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

You are worried that if you say "unless I get 3 weeks vacation I can't take this job" you will be passed over, but they will cave in or you will see them advertise this position for months and then they will probably call you and cave in. Everything is negotiable and everyone low balls the other side to begin with. Have you ever been involved with buying or selling a house? Of course he isn't going to tell you that he is open for negotiation. He just low balled you and hoped you would take it. He isn't going to say, "and now what are your demands to take this job". We are not picking on you, but we are all consistently telling you the same thing. It doesn't cost them that much to let you miss 40 more hours of work per year.

 

[reca]

I am not assertive. He was quite firm when he offered what he did and I didn't get the impression there was any negotiation. It was this is what we are offering.

Then go somewhere else? Literally googling "Psychiatry job" will get you better offers than this.

 

[futuredo32]

You are worried that if you say "unless I get 3 weeks vacation I can't take this job" you will be passed over, but they will cave in or you will see them advertise this position for months and then they will probably call you and cave in. Everything is negotiable and everyone low balls the other side to begin with. Have you ever been involved with buying or selling a house? Of course he isn't going to tell you that he is open for negotiation. He just low balled you and hoped you would take it. He isn't going to say, "and now what are your demands to take this job". We are not picking on you, but we are all consistently telling you the same thing. It doesn't cost them that much to let you miss 40 more hours of work per year.

thank you. I feel that since I said ok, for this position I cant change my mind but will use this information for future positions.

 

[futuredo32]

You realize just because you want the job doesn't mean you lose all negotiating powers, right? Sure you'll want to be less stubborn but the worst they are going to tell you is no, but more than likely at least try to meet you halfway. If you just accept the terms as is I can almost guarantee you, you are either leaving money or PTO on the table.

I worry your current mindset is what has you in your current position. You mention right now "it is getting hard to interview while working full time" but doing a little more work upfront could keep you from reliving this same scenario in another 12-24 months

I don't tend to stay more than a year or 2. I'm also currently in Maine for the worst job ever looking for a job in Michigan.

 

[SourceOfDenial]

thank you. I feel that since I said ok, for this position I cant change my mind but will use this information for future positions.

Did you sign a contract?

It is heartening to know that at least the entire psychiatry forum can rally together and agree on something.

Plus I feel like half this forum wants to negotiate a better contract for you.

 

[cookymonster]

thank you. I feel that since I said ok, for this position I cant change my mind but will use this information for future positions.

I detailed in another thread how I spent $700 on a license after a hospital said "ok." After it went through, they said "just kidding!"
Don't think for a second this job won't do the same if they find a candidate they like more.
It's your life. You're still a free agent. If you didn't sign a contract, it is not too late to change your mind.

 

[futuredo32]

Did you sign a contract?

It is heartening to know that at least the entire psychiatry forum can rally together and agree on something.

Plus I feel like half this forum wants to negotiate a better contract for you.

I DO appreciate the helpful advice. I think this should actually be addressed in med school. The NP I worked with at a clinic sure knew how to negotiate and she had a much better deal than I did. I'm very passive and appreciate being employed, so I have never asked for a raise. I do have a few options to pick from but unless one out of state can be crazy fast with credentialing for addictions, I will likely take this one. It's a year. And this is the psychiatry forum I remember where people are supportive. I may not use this advice now, as I feel that I missed the boat on negotiating, but next time definitely. Thank you all. And no, I didn't sign a contract yet, but it is close to home. Most of my jobs are an hour or more away and I really LOVE my apartment.

 

[thepoopologist]

You didn't sign a contract. Your yes can turn into a no.

Just because you didn't learn how to negotiate in med school doesn't mean you need to wait for some other time to learn because you verbally accepted the position. I mean, you didn't sign a contract.

Salary, days off and other benefits should be compared to the regional market at minimum, not the previous jobs you've obtained. If I simply took the jobs offered to me without negotiating I'd be bouncing around quite often and complaining about my misery. The whole point of negotiating and knowing the job market is to avoid that. As of now, the job market is wide open and there is absolutely no reason for the mentality you currently have, other than you will be used to the abuse should the market drastically contract in a couple years and we are all fighting for scraps.

 

[bashir]

Everyone is offering really good advice here, up to and including that the deal is not done until the contract is signed. I think the forum is breaking the cardinal rule of not working harder than the "patient." Good luck, futuredo. Not gonna lie, it's been painful to be witness to your journey. I hope you are able to save aggressively so you can plan your exit.

 

[reca]

I DO appreciate the helpful advice. I think this should actually be addressed in med school. The NP I worked with at a clinic sure knew how to negotiate and she had a much better deal than I did. I'm very passive and appreciate being employed, so I have never asked for a raise. I do have a few options to pick from but unless one out of state can be crazy fast with credentialing for addictions, I will likely take this one. It's a year. And this is the psychiatry forum I remember where people are supportive. I may not use this advice now, as I feel that I missed the boat on negotiating, but next time definitely. Thank you all. And no, I didn't sign a contract yet, but it is close to home. Most of my jobs are an hour or more away and I really LOVE my apartment.

Why on earth would they teach this in med school? It's not medicine. No one here took some special course. There's already been a book recommendation for you. You can also just google "How to negotiate a salary" and that'll give you plenty to work for. If a midlevel is getting a better deal than you, I don't even know what to say. You can literally just point to her and say, "I have an MD, she doesn't. Give me a better deal than you're giving her. "

I'm sorry, gonna be honest here, your responses are such that I genuinely have to wonder to what degree self-sabotage is playing a role here. If you didn't have such a long history of posts, I'd genuinely assume this is a troll.

 

[hallowmann]

I think courses on negotiation and physician contracts in residency is necessary. We usually have 1-2 hrs/year devoted to this during retreat. It's not enough. I think this would be valuable in residency from a practice management standpoint, much like billing.

 

[futuredo32]

Why on earth would they teach this in med school? It's not medicine. No one here took some special course. There's already been a book recommendation for you. You can also just google "How to negotiate a salary" and that'll give you plenty to work for. If a midlevel is getting a better deal than you, I don't even know what to say. You can literally just point to her and say, "I have an MD, she doesn't. Give me a better deal than you're giving her. "

I'm sorry, gonna be honest here, your responses are such that I genuinely have to wonder to what degree self-sabotage is playing a role here. If you didn't have such a long history of posts, I'd genuinely assume this is a troll.

The only reason I said that was because at a clinic I worked prior, an NP fresh out of school negotiated herself a sweet deal. She knew little about psychiatry, but she had a much better deal than I had. I did bring things up with the clinic owner and he wasn't happy to say the least. He sees no difference between an NP and a psychiatrist, the fact that I was doing med reviews in 15 minutes and new evals in 45 minutes and the NPs got twice the time to do both. I was a contract employee there, she got herself an employed position, 30 hours guaranteed(if she didn't have patients in the evening she went home and still got paid) , administration time and vacation. Maybe part of my lack of understanding about negotiating is that I worked my way through undergrad. You don't negotiate as a waitress or cashier. You take what they give you and are happy they work around your school schedule. But she said they taught them how to negotiate and it showed.

 

[futuredo32]

You are worried that if you say "unless I get 3 weeks vacation I can't take this job" you will be passed over, but they will cave in or you will see them advertise this position for months and then they will probably call you and cave in. Everything is negotiable and everyone low balls the other side to begin with. Have you ever been involved with buying or selling a house? Of course he isn't going to tell you that he is open for negotiation. He just low balled you and hoped you would take it. He isn't going to say, "and now what are your demands to take this job". We are not picking on you, but we are all consistently telling you the same thing. It doesn't cost them that much to let you miss 40 more hours of work per year.

Actually I did sell a house and it was out of state which made it hard. In the end, I ended up being the one to cave just to be done with it.

 

[futuredo32]

Everyone is offering really good advice here, up to and including that the deal is not done until the contract is signed. I think the forum is breaking the cardinal rule of not working harder than the "patient." Good luck, futuredo. Not gonna lie, it's been painful to be witness to your journey. I hope you are able to save aggressively so you can plan your exit.

I will use this advice for FUTURE jobs. I just feel like initially saying I want xyz and then saying, no I actually want abc isn't appropriate. 10 days unpaid in addition to the two weeks paid and 2 days of CME isn't going to make or break me. I WILL use this advice for future jobs. I'm in a bad spot. I quit my full time job here in Maine because it's a lawsuit waiting to happen and I want another position to replace it. I don't have the luxury of waiting a few months for a better deal unless I want to wait for a few months without a paycheck. There aren't a lot of outpatient adult only positions in my area. I am also undergoing some rough personal stuff, so I just want a job so I have one less issue to deal with. It's not a forever job, it's a year. I can use all of this very good advice in the future and I sincerely appreciate it.

 

[TexasPhysician]

I just feel like initially saying I want xyz and then saying, no I actually want abc isn't appropriate. 10 days unpaid in addition to the two weeks paid and 2 days of CME isn't going to make or break me.

Look at it differently: It’s actually isn’t appropriate to take this job. When recruiters are able to find psychiatrists with no understanding of their worth, they exploit us and refuse to negotiate as much with the rest of us. It sets us all back. Your recruiter is likely netting 6 figures on this terrible deal. Adding 2 weeks off for you with no reduction in pay to you may reduce their revenue from $100k to $80k. They can take that hit and still celebrate like mad.

 

[finalpsychyear]

I will use this advice for FUTURE jobs. I just feel like initially saying I want xyz and then saying, no I actually want abc isn't appropriate. 10 days unpaid in addition to the two weeks paid and 2 days of CME isn't going to make or break me. I WILL use this advice for future jobs. I'm in a bad spot. I quit my full time job here in Maine because it's a lawsuit waiting to happen and I want another position to replace it. I don't have the luxury of waiting a few months for a better deal unless I want to wait for a few months without a paycheck. There aren't a lot of outpatient adult only positions in my area. I am also undergoing some rough personal stuff, so I just want a job so I have one less issue to deal with. It's not a forever job, it's a year. I can use all of this very good advice in the future and I sincerely appreciate it.

In the future i advise never to quit until you have a well negotiated contract. You naturally put yourself in a compromised position.

The contract you have is not a good idea to sign. Your going to probably go through this all over again very soon if you dont get at least the pto that you want or need. Best of luck.

 

[bashir]

I get that it feels weird to reopen negotiations after you reach a verbal agreement, but this is done all the time. They would not hesitate to retract an offer before the contract was signed if they no longer felt it was in their best interest. You don't need to justify your decision to us and I would suggest that you stop trying because none of us are going to be convinced that you are making a good choice.

 

[bashir]

You can make something up to save face if you want. "Just found out about sister's destination wedding in Europe, need more time off than I thought. Sorry."

 

[cookymonster]

I will use this advice for FUTURE jobs. I just feel like initially saying I want xyz and then saying, no I actually want abc isn't appropriate. 10 days unpaid in addition to the two weeks paid and 2 days of CME isn't going to make or break me. I WILL use this advice for future jobs. I'm in a bad spot. I quit my full time job here in Maine because it's a lawsuit waiting to happen and I want another position to replace it. I don't have the luxury of waiting a few months for a better deal unless I want to wait for a few months without a paycheck. There aren't a lot of outpatient adult only positions in my area. I am also undergoing some rough personal stuff, so I just want a job so I have one less issue to deal with. It's not a forever job, it's a year. I can use all of this very good advice in the future and I sincerely appreciate it.

Honestly this reads as if you're trying to stand behind some nebulous ethical code (which isn't going to be reciprocated to you) to justify what sounds like a very costly fear of negotiating.
If you really hate negotiating that much and decide that the cost doesn't justify the benefit, that is your decision to make. Just own it and accept that you are leaving a lot of money and career satisfaction on the table in doing so.

 

[futuredo32]

In the future i advise never to quit until you have a well negotiated contract. You naturally put yourself in a compromised position.

This position was supposed to be me seeing patients for addictions. RNs supervised by NPS see the patient i am here as a rubber stamp. This job is a lawsuit waiting to happen, hence the abrupt departure. I value my medical license.

 

[futuredo32]

Thank you all for the advice. I will use it in the future. I think it can be locked now.