Fired from a job 4 years ago: Red Flag in application?

[907914]

I intend on listing a hospital I worked at on my application as it was excellent clinical experience, however my departure was not on the best of terms and I will simply be listing the Human Resources department as opposed to any specific name. Will this appear as a red flag to just have an HR number for the hospital with no name associated?

I signed something saying they can confirm my dates of employment if contacted but won't state reason for departure. This job will be over 4 years ago and will be almost 5 years ago come next interview season, was my first job after being in the military/a student and is only one activity of several dozen I have listed. Any ideas/information will be greatly appreciated

Edit: For the "Person" in the W/A section, is it ok to just list "Company HR"?

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[LukaDoncicLuk]

How many hours does this add to your application? I can't imagine it would be a good idea to list a job where you have been fired from.

 

[907914]

How many hours does this add to your application? I can't imagine it would be a good idea to list a job where you have been fired from.

1400 clinical hours of 6000 clinical hours.

I figured the 'fired' would most likely never come up as the hospital won't talk about why I left and I can mention why I left if asked without talking about the whole 'fired' aspect (Wife was 8 months pregnant while I was working 60-70 hours a week, loved the area and the hospital didn't like the environment etc. All of which is true and why I had planned on leaving anyway)

 

[differentiating]

Yeah, I wouldn’t list an experience where, if contacted, it could be a negative rather than a positive. Especially if you have plenty of clinical hours without it.

 

[907914]

Yeah, I wouldn’t list an experience where, if contacted, it could be a negative rather than a positive. Especially if you have plenty of clinical hours without it.

Will a 6 month gap in the last 6 years look weird then? The only other thing in that timeline is army reserve drills. And this is my only civilian, non-shadowing rural health care experience (I have both military a shadowing rural experiences though). Am I putting too much emphasis on that rural and/or timeline gap?

 

[Ad2b]

Put it on your application, imo, lying is not just the direct perversion of the truth but also the willful intent of not including the truth.

In today's business world it is almost UNHEARD of to have someone's name listed as a contact/reference even if they left on amicable terms. I left big, federal government contractor on my own terms, gave 3 weeks notice and you know what # I use?

HR.

 

[differentiating]

Will a 6 month gap in the last 6 years look weird then? The only other thing in that timeline is army reserve drills. And this is my only civilian, non-shadowing rural health care experience (I have both military a shadowing rural experiences though). Am I putting too much emphasis on that rural and/or timeline gap?

I’m not sure if anyone would look that closely, or if a 6 mo gap over 6 years would be that significant. Do you have other civilian volunteering (not shadowing)? I don’t think rural experience is necessary crucial, as long as you have volunteering with other underserved communities.

 

[500miles]

Will a 6 month gap in the last 6 years look weird then? The only other thing in that timeline is army reserve drills. And this is my only civilian, non-shadowing rural health care experience (I have both military a shadowing rural experiences though). Am I putting too much emphasis on that rural and/or timeline gap?

Dont put on there. Why risk it?
What you put on the AMCAS does not have to be a direct timeline of your jobs,activities, etc. Its what is relevant to you as a prospective student. I doubt anyone will ask you about those six months..

 

[907914]

I’m not sure if anyone would look that closely, or if a 6 mo gap over 6 years would be that significant. Do you have other civilian volunteering (not shadowing)? I don’t think rural experience is necessary crucial, as long as you have volunteering with other underserved communities.

Yes, I have both military and civilian volunteer experience. No civilian clinical volunteering, but 150ish hours of non-clinical and 350 hours of military non-clinical plus 300 hours of military clinical. Also several thousand hours of both military and civilian clinical and non-clinical paid employment.

My concern is just as Ad2b mentioned, should I withhold information just because it may or may not be bad?

More all of my civilian employement, good and bad, I just plan on putting HR numbers.

 

[ThrowawayShmoaway]

I actually would list it. The hours are significant, and it’s not weird to put HR as a contact.

 

[ThrowawayShmoaway]

My concern is just as Ad2b mentioned, should I withhold information just because it may or may not be bad?

As someone already mentioned, not listing it is not withholding information. Nowhere in AMCAS do they ask for every job you’ve ever worked, and the activities section is not a timeline.

 

[Ad2b]

should I withhold information just because it may or may not be bad?

I'm older than pretty much everyone except maybe (!) Goro and LizzyM but maybe even older than them.

I think if you have a gap it is a bigger issue and bigger flag opening up more questions, especially in your interview which is already ripe with stress that you don't need.

Worst case scenario:

1. you put it in
2. they call because they have so much extra time and want to verify everything on your app and only on your app because they trust every other candidate
3. HR verifies the dates you included
4. somehow, they want more info on your time there... so it comes up in the interview at which point, you do not have to say you were fired, you say what you learned and how it shaped you as a person

that's it

Don't lie, don't confabulate the truth (I was "fired" too for turning my public company in for fraud... do I leave it off? nope, never)

 

[differentiating]

Yes, I have both military and civilian volunteer experience. No civilian clinical volunteering, but 150ish hours of non-clinical and 350 hours of military non-clinical plus 300 hours of military clinical. Also several thousand hours of both military and civilian clinical and non-clinical paid employment.

My concern is just as Ad2b mentioned, should I withhold information just because it may or may not be bad?

More all of my civilian employement, good and bad, I just plan on putting HR numbers.

I don’t think it’s wrong to omit negative information; this is an application. You by nature have to omit information if you have >15 things you’ve done in your life. Assuming you were fired for reason, I’d think including it is risk without reward.

 

[Ad2b]

I don’t think it’s wrong to omit negative information.

It is. It's lying. You're going into the most honored profession serving those who need you to be trustworthy.

 

[differentiating]

It is. It's lying. You're going into the most honored profession serving those who need you to be trustworthy.

The application doesn’t ask you to list every experience you have had; you choose your most significant. I don’t recall a section requiring you list every prior employment - if that were the case, you’d be correct.

 

[ThrowawayShmoaway]

It is. It's lying. You're going into the most honored profession serving those who need you to be trustworthy.

Ad2b, you have not applied yet. In general, you would be right that withholding something an application is explicitly asking for is lying. But AMCAS does not ask for job history, nor are you required to list every one of your activities. You only have 15 spots. I actually agree with you that he should list it, but not because withholding it is unethical in this situation (because it’s not).

 

[Ad2b]

Ad2b, you have not applied yet.

You are incorrect, I have applied.

And, I've sort of been around these parts for a very long time (SDN, among others, going on about 20 years now? maybe longer?); plus a lot of other stuff that doesn't matter really and comes off as hubris.

The OP wants to use the clinical hours as experience (where I put my jobs) because the hours were relevant and lengthy.

The question was the concern over listing HR and/or having a gap.

A gap is an issue.

HR is not an issue.

Lying is an issue.

Not lying is not an issue 🙂

 

[honeybee87]

It is. It's lying. You're going into the most honored profession serving those who need you to be trustworthy.

A little biased maybe? I also disagree with you in that OP should put down the information on AMCAS. First, it’s a lot of clinical hours, and second, he’s under no obligation to say that he was fired. AMCAS can never (legally) find that information out, and you’re not a bad person if you choose to withhold it if AMCAS specifically does not ask “have you been fired from this job”. You gotta play the game smart

 

[Ad2b]

A little biased maybe? I also disagree with you in that OP should put down the information on AMCAS. First, it’s a lot of clinical hours, and second, he’s under no obligation to say that he was fired. AMCAS can never (legally) find that information out, and you’re not a bad person if you choose to withhold it if AMCAS specifically does not ask “have you been fired from this job”. You gotta play the game smart

I'm not biased - tell me what other profession takes a human life and holds that human's secrets sacred? None. That's honorable. Tell me what other profession does that?

Second, you disagree with me and yet you then use sentence structure that appears to agree with me.

I said to put it on. 😕 let me clarify that:

put it on with the dates Aug 2015 - May 2018 (whatever they are), contact information: HR

And let it go... nothing more needs to be said

 

[500miles]

I'm not biased - tell me what other profession takes a human life and holds that human's secrets sacred? None. That's honorable. Tell me what other profession does that?

Second, you disagree with me and yet you then use sentence structure that appears to agree with me.

I said to put it on. 😕 let me clarify that:

put it on with the dates Aug 2015 - May 2018 (whatever they are), contact information: HR

And let it go... nothing more needs to be said

Its not lying. Not sure how else anyone can explain this to you lol

Edit: since everyone thinks it's so relevant that you HAD to have applied to know this information, I have applied and was accepted. And yes, I did not put everything I ever did, there were gaps. No one cared.

 

[ginsengreset]

It's rare to contact the people listed on the activities section, and if they do, it's only to verify 1) the position and 2) the hours listed. From what I understand, they are not references. I think OP is fine in putting this on.

 

[Ad2b]

I did not put everything I ever did, there were gaps. No one cared.

Did you use the hours that you did not put on your application in another area?

Did you read the OPs question?

The OP wants to use the clinical hours. Right? He has a lot of them, wants to use them, and wants to know the ramifications (red flaggability) of putting "HR" down, and not someone's name.

There is no ramification for putting HR, no one will care. However, the hours ARE useful. Right? Clinical hours, lots of them. Useful. So, I say put it down.

Finally, yes, lying by omission is lying.

Auditor here: company says "we don't know where the box of financial records went to but we have 2017 and 2016 for you and Jan to April of 2018"

What do you think the auditor looks for? and inquires about? and writes up in the management report and possibly the opine for the SEC?

 

[differentiating]

Finally, yes, lying by omission is lying.

Auditor here: company says "we don't know where the box of financial records went to but we have 2017 and 2016 for you and Jan to April of 2018"

What do you think the auditor looks for? and inquires about? and writes up in the management report and possibly the opine for the SEC?

Your analogy doesn’t work because in an audit, you are required to relinquish all financial records. On AMCAS, you are not required to list or report every activity you have done.

imo, OP has plenty of other clinical hours to make the small risk of including a job they were fired from not worth taking. But regardless of what they choose to do, this still has nothing to do with lying.

 

[Ad2b]

Your analogy doesn’t work because in an audit, you are required to relinquish all financial records. On AMCAS, you are not required to list or report every activity you have done.

The bolded part is not true. You are not required to do that for an audit. You are only required to provide what is requested 🙂

This whole thread got off course.

Very few of you answered the OP's question: include or not, worry about "HR" or not.

I did. Yes include, don't worry about "HR" notation

The rest of the thread started into the lying bit to which, as threads tend to do when off-course, said omission is not lying.

If the OP is listing this in the experience section, where on puts the resume type information, yes, a gap will get noticed. That was the OP's follow up question. Yes, if in the experience section - the resume type area - the OP has a gap, it will possibly get noticed and called out in an interview.

I am of the mindset that it is better to put that type of information - where it is chronologically mandated - out there. No one is going to call HR. You know that, I know that but the OP is concerned; it is HIS application. YOU do not have to feel the ramifications on his app cycle if it gets called out, he does.

If this was in the meaningful experiences section where dates - chronological don't really matter - then no. Leave it out. All depends on where this information was going.

 

[honeybee87]

I'm not biased - tell me what other profession takes a human life and holds that human's secrets sacred? None. That's honorable. Tell me what other profession does that?

Second, you disagree with me and yet you then use sentence structure that appears to agree with me.

I said to put it on. 😕 let me clarify that:

put it on with the dates Aug 2015 - May 2018 (whatever they are), contact information: HR

And let it go... nothing more needs to be said

Firefighter, police officers, paramedic... you clearly are biased, and that idea of “oh a Doctor is the most honorable job in the world” does not look good especially when you have non-doctors interviewing you. Learn this basic lesson from your lower div science courses, never speak in absolute terms

 

[givesumacceptpls]

OP I think I am misunderstanding your story, is this what you meant?:

Since this job was 5 years ago, you are listing Human Resources to verify the truth of your work and nothing more.
Your supervisor stopped working years ago and you don't have his personal contact info. An employee you might remember was maybe transferred? We don't know the details. He just isn't there.

 

[Ad2b]

Firefighter, police officers, paramedic... you clearly are biased, and that idea of “oh a Doctor is the most honorable job in the world” does not look good especially when you have non-doctors interviewing you. Learn this basic lesson from your lower div science courses, never speak in absolute terms

You don't tell those people the most intimate details of your life on an ongoing basis nor do they give you direction and advice.

Those are honorable professions (my grandfather was fire chief and my dad a cop at one point) don't misconstrue my intent or meaning, as you've been doing.

 

[differentiating]

The bolded part is not true. You are not required to do that for an audit. You are only required to provide what is requested 🙂

This whole thread got off course.

Very few of you answered the OP's question: include or not, worry about "HR" or not.

I did. Yes include, don't worry about "HR" notation

The rest of the thread started into the lying bit to which, as threads tend to do when off-course, said omission is not lying.

If the OP is listing this in the experience section, where on puts the resume type information, yes, a gap will get noticed. That was the OP's follow up question. Yes, if in the experience section - the resume type area - the OP has a gap, it will possibly get noticed and called out in an interview.

I am of the mindset that it is better to put that type of information - where it is chronologically mandated - out there. No one is going to call HR. You know that, I know that but the OP is concerned; it is HIS application. YOU do not have to feel the ramifications on his app cycle if it gets called out, he does.

If this was in the meaningful experiences section where dates - chronological don't really matter - then no. Leave it out. All depends on where this information was going.

Regarding the audit: your implication was that you weren’t providing the full information for the timeframe requested, but whatever.

I disagree that the gap in activity is a big deal. Having interviewed applicants for my school in the past (and thus having access to apps), I never looked at timelines to make sure applicants were doing something 24/7. It’d be too much of a pain to line up all those dates. I doubt 1 6month gap over 6 years will raise eyebrows if it was a while ago.

Therefore, I’d say that the possibility of HR mentioning that the employee was fired/terminated is a bigger risk, and that is why I’ve advocated to not include it. I don’t think it adds anything significant to the application when OP has >4000 other clinical hours to begin with.

 

[honeybee87]

You don't tell those people the most intimate details of your life on an ongoing basis nor do they give you direction and advice.

Those are honorable professions (my grandfather was fire chief and my dad a cop at one point) don't misconstrue my intent or meaning, as you've been doing.

You keep on arguing and arguing and not getting the point. You should become a lawyer instead. That being said, I’ve made my point

 

[holdthemayo]

Edit: For the "Person" in the W/A section, is it ok to just list "Company HR"?

You could list the name of your former supervisor, but the number for HR. It's not uncommon to not have the contact information for your previous supervisor from 5 years ago. Several of my previous supervisors have also moved on to other jobs, or I don't have their contact info. HR is the only appropriate number to give. Absolutely nobody will bat an eye.

In the extremely unlikely instance that someone from an admissions department calls, HR will confirm your title, and dates worked there. Most HR departments don't give out more information than that. You are in the clear here.

List the hours, they look good. The only exception here is if you got fired for doing something illegal or highly unethical.

 

[Mike Bagwell]

@samualjhatfield

Why do you unnecessarily want to complicate your application? If you have many other work-related experiences, I think you can leave this one out. You don't have to divulge every aspect of your personal life on your application to medical school. They are not doing a background check as if you were applying for the Secret Service.

Just make sure the academic qualifications are 100% accurate and make sure you're honest with why you want to pursue medicine.

If you had a job where your departure was less than ideal and it did not involve something criminal, then just leave it out and move on and focus on the other positives on your application. The last thing you want is someone to look at your app and take something trivial and use it against you for no reason.

I've said this before, 99.99% of matriculants are squeaky clean...at least on paper. Don't try to be "that guy."

 

[907914]

OP I think I am misunderstanding your story, is this what you meant?:

Since this job was 5 years ago, you are listing Human Resources to verify the truth of your work and nothing more.
Your supervisor stopped working years ago and you don't have his personal contact info. An employee you might remember was maybe transferred? We don't know the details. He just isn't there.

Basically, yes. Just prior to my firing one of the 6 people in the department died, one broke an ankle on the job and couldn't work for 4 months, one retired and the supervisor quit. Yes I made mistakes and the firing was justified because of those mistakes, but 2 people were doing the job of the entire department (6 people) and so I basically just want to list HR so they can verify I worked there like I say I did. That is all.

 

[907914]

Regarding the audit: your implication was that you weren’t providing the full information for the timeframe requested, but whatever.

I disagree that the gap in activity is a big deal. Having interviewed applicants for my school in the past (and thus having access to apps), I never looked at timelines to make sure applicants were doing something 24/7. It’d be too much of a pain to line up all those dates. I doubt 1 6month gap over 6 years will raise eyebrows if it was a while ago.

Therefore, I’d say that the possibility of HR mentioning that the employee was fired/terminated is a bigger risk, and that is why I’ve advocated to not include it. I don’t think it adds anything significant to the application when OP has >4000 other clinical hours to begin with.

There was a non-disclosure form. Basically, HR will only say I worked there and for how long. I was just worried about using HR would look like a bad thing and/or that it would for some reason be asked in an interview.

 

[907914]

No medical will care in the least about having HR as a contact. There is no risk on having this listed. Really

This is why Gonnif is ADCOM. Fully answering a question with very few words and no fluff or arguing. Much appreciated all!

Moderators lock thread now? All of the possibly informative tangents have been had...

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

It is. It's lying. You're going into the most honored profession serving those who need you to be trustworthy.

It’s actually not. You are required to list your employment on background checks and the like. An application does not require you to list every experience you have had. In fact, the applicant guide suggests choosing a diverse set of experiences that paints you in the best light.

That said, to the OP, having it will not hurt you. I listed HR for all of my hospital jobs. HR will just confirm your position and the timeframe you worked there, which is all the med schools would ask for anyway if they even bothered to call.

Edit: Also, to the OP, I left off a hospital job because I didn't have enough room to include it and I had plenty of clinical experience listed. I also didn't include the short job I had between that hospital in the Navy. That left like an 8 month gap in my application. No one ever mentioned it, and it did not prevent me from getting acceptances.

 

[Biochemistry69]

I worked a job for three and a half years. Was invited back over winter break, came back, all new employees and some new management. I didn't like how I was being treated, so I finished my shift, emailed my boss that I was quitting ASAP, and never looked back.

I'll list HR as my reference.

 

[deleted804295]

I'm not biased - tell me what other profession takes a human life and holds that human's secrets sacred? None. That's honorable. Tell me what other profession does that?

Second, you disagree with me and yet you then use sentence structure that appears to agree with me.

I said to put it on. 😕 let me clarify that:

put it on with the dates Aug 2015 - May 2018 (whatever they are), contact information: HR

And let it go... nothing more needs to be said

Medicine is great but this is coming off very cringe. Omitting information on an application is not a lie.

 

[honeybee87]

Medicine is great but this is coming off very cringe. Omitting information on an application is not a lie.

I think it’s even more cringe that OP attempted to take on the job of a moderator and decide which threads should get locked

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

This is why Gonnif is ADCOM. Fully answering a question with very few words and no fluff or arguing. Much appreciated all!

Moderators lock thread now? All of the possibly informative tangents have been had...

I think it’s even more cringe that OP attempted to take on the job of a moderator and decide which threads should get locked

It's pretty common for people to say things like "/thread" or mention that the question has been answered. We try not to close threads unless they completely go off the rails though, since you never know when another poster might have a similar, but slightly different question.

If you (and anyone else) don't have anything to add to the thread that is related to OP's question, refrain from posting.

 

[907914]

It's pretty common for people to say things like "/thread" or mention that the question has been answered. We try not to close threads unless they completely go off the rails though, since you never know when another poster might have a similar, but slightly different question.

If you (and anyone else) don't have anything to add to the thread that is related to OP's question, refrain from posting.

Gotcha, didn’t know that thread couldn’t be locked if the question was answered as thoroughly as it could be. Won’t do again /thread

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Gotcha, didn’t know that thread couldn’t be locked if the question was answered as thoroughly as it could be. Won’t do again /thread

No, it's okay. It can be closed, we just try not to. The thread will die on its on if no one else has anything else to add. If people keep arguing, I'll close it.