fired from lab and doubts

[JoshuaGuit]

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I hope you aren't suggesting that because it is "volunteer" you don't need to be responsible and respectful.

I am saying that a volunteer is not/should not in my opinion be held to the same expectations that a paid employee is. They are essentially supplying free labor/novel ideas, so being late a few times costs absolutely nothing to the laboratory.

 

[JoshuaGuit]

This is huge in the lab with PI's. We had a few people whom were geniuses and it just blew my mind. Didn't matter, they were dropped like hot potatoes for being unreliable. Here I am getting a glowing lor and I suck in lab with techniques and all....go figure....

This is exactly the opposite of what I think it should be. Sure, it is absolutely great that you are reliable and keep your head down.

Why should the absolutely bright students who can come up with great and novel ideas that could change the world be dismissed just because they were late? Take a look at most of the tech companies in silicon valley. Workers are given breaks throughout the day, free food, free paid vacations, and other awesome perks because their employers understand that happy and rested innovators are good innovators.

I feel that so many people in this thread would benefit from taking a step back and thinking a little outside of the box. My good friend worked maybe 5 hours a day in lab with 2 of those hours being on facebook, but the rest of the time he was able to come up with a novel cellular uptake mechanism for siRNA and transcription factors embedded in nanoparticles. RESEARCH labs work so much better being task oriented rather than time oriented. If you work better from 8pm to 5 am, why should you be forced to conform to the regular ideas?

 

[Barcu]

I am saying that a volunteer is not/should not in my opinion be held to the same expectations that a paid employee is. They are essentially supplying free labor/novel ideas, so being late a few times costs absolutely nothing to the laboratory.

Well, considering there is an abundant supply of free labor, they have every right to send you packing if you aren't responsible (which includes being late). And did you read other posts? It doesn't matter if you are supplying free labor or novel ideas, people think you are irresponsible if you are late.

And the attitude that volunteer positions should not be taken as seriously or treated the same as paid position is why there are so many bitter PIs and volunteer coordinators. They rely on you, and you owe them respect if you commit to something. You are getting a lot out of it in terms of applying to med school, so you should take it seriously.

This is exactly the opposite of what I think it should be. Sure, it is absolutely great that you are reliable and keep your head down.

Why should the absolutely bright students who can come up with great and novel ideas that could change the world be dismissed just because they were late? Take a look at most of the tech companies in silicon valley. Workers are given breaks throughout the day, free food, free paid vacations, and other awesome perks because their employers understand that happy and rested innovators are good innovators.

What does this have to do with anything? Happy and rested innovators could arrive on time.

I feel that so many people in this thread would benefit from taking a step back and thinking a little outside of the box. My good friend worked maybe 5 hours a day in lab with 2 of those hours being on facebook, but the rest of the time he was able to come up with a novel cellular uptake mechanism for siRNA and transcription factors embedded in nanoparticles. RESEARCH labs work so much better being task oriented rather than time oriented. If you work better from 8pm to 5 am, why should you be forced to conform to the regular ideas?

I think we are disagreeing so much because most of us detractors are speaking more generally than just research.

Yes, in the research field, there is room for flexibility. And most PIs don't care about timing as long as you get results. In the OPs case, however, the PI and OP worked together, so the PI had to wait.

In the real world, pretty much every job focuses on a clock. And as a result, you need to learn to be on time. No excuses. If not, your co-workers, bosses, and patients are all going to notice, and it will reflect very poorly upon you, even if you are a brilliant innovator. You may think that is dumb, but welcome to real life.

 

[SpecterGT260]

This is exactly the opposite of what I think it should be. Sure, it is absolutely great that you are reliable and keep your head down.

Why should the absolutely bright students who can come up with great and novel ideas that could change the world be dismissed just because they were late? Take a look at most of the tech companies in silicon valley. Workers are given breaks throughout the day, free food, free paid vacations, and other awesome perks because their employers understand that happy and rested innovators are good innovators.

I feel that so many people in this thread would benefit from taking a step back and thinking a little outside of the box. My good friend worked maybe 5 hours a day in lab with 2 of those hours being on facebook, but the rest of the time he was able to come up with a novel cellular uptake mechanism for siRNA and transcription factors embedded in nanoparticles. RESEARCH labs work so much better being task oriented rather than time oriented. If you work better from 8pm to 5 am, why should you be forced to conform to the regular ideas?

going back to the idea of professionalism, I dont think you are aware how far you have missed the point in suggesting that you know better than your PI in what expectations for the lab should be (not that you actually did this.... but the point isnt about what "works best" - it is about the relative ease in meeting expectations or addressing issues before they arise)

If you think you are going to get to medical school and never have to meet BS expectations just because someone up the ladder said so with NO other [apparent] reason or rationale behind it..... well.... rude awakenings and such.

 

[aggronor]

I can't help but feel the OP isn't telling the whole story here, possibly underplaying the amount of times he/she was tardy (or by how much) or overstating the quality of work and research contribution.

 

[JoshuaGuit]

Well, considering there is an abundant supply of free labor, they have every right to send you packing if you aren't responsible (which includes being late). And did you read other posts? It doesn't matter if you are supplying free labor or novel ideas, people think you are irresponsible if you are late.

And the attitude that volunteer positions should not be taken as seriously or treated the same as paid position is why there are so many bitter PIs and volunteer coordinators. They rely on you, and you owe them respect if you commit to something. You are getting a lot out of it in terms of applying to med school, so you should take it seriously.



What does this have to do with anything? Happy and rested innovators could arrive on time.



I think we are disagreeing so much because most of us detractors are speaking more generally than just research.

Yes, in the research field, there is room for flexibility. And most PIs don't care about timing as long as you get results. In the OPs case, however, the PI and OP worked together, so the PI had to wait.

In the real world, pretty much every job focuses on a clock. And as a result, you need to learn to be on time. No excuses. If not, your co-workers, bosses, and patients are all going to notice, and it will reflect very poorly upon you, even if you are a brilliant innovator. You may think that is dumb, but welcome to real life.

Let me just say that I completely agree with the vast majority of your post: If you are told expectations (such as having to be on time, et al), then you should meet and exceed those expectations. If a professor (or grad student or undergrad) is supposed to meet with you at 9am to do an experiment, you should be there ready to work at 9am. I am not saying anything negative about that.

I am simply saying that these are not necessarily the best working conditions, and luckily I have been working with great professors who acknowledge this and allow buffer room as long as the work gets done well. From experience, I am treated as a graduate student because I have proven myself in the lab as very hardworking, reliable, and (hopefully) innovative. I'd rather be able to be trusted to be lounging in my apartment and researching possible techniques for my experiments than having to sit up in a chair at a desk doing the same thing, however much more uncomfortable. Being able to roll in at 2am if I wanted to and do work seems much more attractive. I guess I will be in for a rough welcoming when I'm not able to do the work at my own leisure.

 

[JoshuaGuit]

going back to the idea of professionalism, I dont think you are aware how far you have missed the point in suggesting that you know better than your PI in what expectations for the lab should be (not that you actually did this.... but the point isnt about what "works best" - it is about the relative ease in meeting expectations or addressing issues before they arise)

If you think you are going to get to medical school and never have to meet BS expectations just because someone up the ladder said so with NO other [apparent] reason or rationale behind it..... well.... rude awakenings and such.

I am completely able to adapt to whatever expectations I am held up to. There is no harm in me voicing on a pre-med forum what I feel works best for me and what I've seen work best for peers I work with.

I think a factor in this is motivation and interest in the project. If someone isn't happy with work they are doing, perhaps they may need more structure, such as a 9 to 5pm strict schedule. However, if someone is independent and enthused about what they are doing, it is far more productive to allow them to work in the style that works best for them and gives the lab the most results. I have worked in collabs before (I'm doing one right now actually with two other labs), but I have never had to work with a partner to conduct an experiment successfully. Perhaps that perspective is missing in my posts, and I apologize.

 

[SpecterGT260]

I am completely able to adapt to whatever expectations I am held up to. There is no harm in me voicing on a pre-med forum what I feel works best for me and what I've seen work best for peers I work with.

I think a factor in this is motivation and interest in the project. If someone isn't happy with work they are doing, perhaps they may need more structure, such as a 9 to 5pm strict schedule. However, if someone is independent and enthused about what they are doing, it is far more productive to allow them to work in the style that works best for them and gives the lab the most results. I have worked in collabs before (I'm doing one right now actually with two other labs), but I have never had to work with a partner to conduct an experiment successfully. Perhaps that perspective is missing in my posts, and I apologize.

Voice away. Just be aware of the difference between application and theory

 

[JoshuaGuit]

Voice away. Just be aware of the difference between application and theory

Practical experience is the equivalent of a theoretical idea?

 

[NCOldie]

Manager A walks onto his shift 5 minutes late and immediately organizes his subordinates, improves the efficiency of the operation and manages all of his responsibilities.

Manager B walks onto his shift 15 early. He poorly manages his responsibilities, redistributes loads according to favoritism and is an all around bastard.

Manager B is obviously more professional than manager A.

Look, being on time is important. Employers do expect it and its a pretty simple thing that gains you brownie points. But to say that because you were late, that means you're unprofessional and failing to honor your commitments is exaggerated and reeks of pre-med neuroticism.

Having a habit of being late simply means that you have a habit of being late. Work on it.



It's obvious that you're not a real medical student.

Oh wuttt, this isn't baseless accusations hour?

wuttt? Ugh.

Being consistently late shows a major lack of respect. It's as though you're telling the other person, "My time is worth way more than yours."
People who are consistently late are the problem, not the ones who run into incidents that cause them to rarely be late. Life happens...traffic, sickness, children, etc. But, a person should never be consistently late.
If you make the commitment, make the commitment and stick to the time that the person who is over you tells you to be there.

That being said, the OP admitted to knowing that being late is wrong.
You should apologize regardless of getting a LOR or not.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Practical experience is the equivalent of a theoretical idea?

the idea here is that no matter how well it will work on paper, it doesn't work too well if you get your ass fired 😀

Have you ever worked for someone who was truly incompetent? Before med school I had about the worst working experience money can buy - low level production job working for a manager who made a great "put on your blinders and grind away" work horse and was promoted to management because of it - who took any personal initiative as a threat and questions for clarification as personal insults. As you can imagine, there were plenty of ways her department could have been run better. No amount of theory or experience (which made the gaps apparent) was going to do jack though 👍
It is similar in research, you may want (and I prefer) a more relaxed environment that is work based rather than time based, but whatever the reason is doesn't make it appropriate to assume this just because you want it. Same with clerkships - you can bet an attending or resident will tell you to do something ridiculous with obvious BS rationale behind it - I double dog dare you to tell them how they can be more efficient with their decision making 😉

 

[notbobtrustme]

some PIs are cockmunchers and you just have to avoid them or deal with their rules when in their lab.