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No, actually I put in my 90 day notice and then 30 days later they escorted me off the premises. Fortunately, as a psychologist, I have a unique set of skills and am doing better than ever. 😉
Fired Professor
Started by AbnormalPsych
Sanman
O.G.
Now I am just picturing Liam Neeson being led out by security guards and an action movie taking place.
I might want to add that to my website. I'll just add neuro to it. Dr. Smalltown also specializes in neuro-bloodletting!
I think this article nicely sums up my point. Additionally, if you read my previous comment, you will note I was not indicating any particular person was engaging in ageism per se, but it was drifting into that realm/ some themes were emerging, and depending on the context of how this professor's age was being spoken about and characterized, could lead to something that I think we as psychologists should be a bit more mindful of.
APA Council of Representatives passes resolution on ageism
The council noted that age is an important element of diversity and called upon the Association to reject age based discrimination and to work to stop ageism in society.www.apa.org
Let’s all ignore norms for cognition. Just don’t look at the WMS manual. The raw scores at 20 have the same SS at 80. We all stay sharp as hell until we die. There are no implications for leadership being older. Surely the pharmacists that service DC has a non-elevated level of prescriptions for donezipil.
Let's not even think about FAA evals or FFD evals for surgical healthcare workers.
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deleted1129370
Clearly there will not be any profound changes or revelations going on here, so it's not worth hashing it out any more. We've all stated our opinions on the matter.
I actually met my now-husband on a study that was evaluating cognitive functioning and flight sim performance in older pilots!
yes, adjunct/contingent faculty are fired all the time, for reasons including student complaints and many others. They make up the majority of college teaching positions and are disproportionally filled by women. That this case, involving a rich accomplished White man, finally makes waves (especially here on SDN) is telling I think.
This goes on all the time. Folks might not notice if it doesn't impact people "like you"
Contingent Workforce: Size, Characteristics, Compensation, and Work Experiences of Adjunct and Other Non-Tenure-Track Faculty, 2017
Contingent Workforce: Size, Characteristics, Compensation, and Work Experiences of Adjunct and Other Non-Tenure-Track Faculty
What GAO Found According to 2015 Department of Education data, contingent faculty—those employed outside of the tenure track—made up about 70 percent...
According to 2015 IPEDS data, instructional positions nationwide are divided roughly evenly between the sexes, but women fill fewer tenuretrack positions and more contingent positions than men do. As shown in figure 7, across all institutions, women hold a substantially lower proportion of full-time tenured positions (38.4 percent) than men do, though women fill 48.9 percent of full-time positions that are on a tenure track but not yet tenured, and that are generally more recent hires.
Sanman
O.G.
yes, adjunct/contingent faculty are fired all the time, for reasons including student complaints and many others. They make up the majority of college teaching positions and are disproportionally filled by women. That this case, involving a rich accomplished White man, finally makes waves (especially here on SDN) is telling I think.
This goes on all the time. Folks might not notice if it doesn't impact people "like you"
Contingent Workforce: Size, Characteristics, Compensation, and Work Experiences of Adjunct and Other Non-Tenure-Track Faculty, 2017
Contingent Workforce: Size, Characteristics, Compensation, and Work Experiences of Adjunct and Other Non-Tenure-Track Faculty
What GAO Found According to 2015 Department of Education data, contingent faculty—those employed outside of the tenure track—made up about 70 percent...www.gao.gov
According to 2015 IPEDS data, instructional positions nationwide are divided roughly evenly between the sexes, but women fill fewer tenuretrack positions and more contingent positions than men do. As shown in figure 7, across all institutions, women hold a substantially lower proportion of full-time tenured positions (38.4 percent) than men do, though women fill 48.9 percent of full-time positions that are on a tenure track but not yet tenured, and that are generally more recent hires.
In all fairness, the NY Times doesn't usually write articles about it to let us know.
Tis' the way of the internet.
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Neuropsychological research is better than dating apps!
I’m disheartened by the ageist comments. Ageism is rampant in society and absent from social justice discourse. Do better folks. It’s fine to express opinions and concerns but swap out any other identity and no one would stand for what’s going down in this thread.
The entire situation seems to reflect the upheaval happening in higher ed. When you have a problem this far reaching, you need to look at the system of power. The Academy as a system is structurally discriminatory. As an academic, I do not align with lowering standards; however, I can’t help but notice that these issues have skyrocketed alongside the diversification of the student body. Yes, there is the consumerist factor and other legit issues, but could it be that we need to redesign the system to better accommodate for the many, many ways that people learn and the various challenges and responsibilities that young people have?
We criticize the youth of today, but who is responsible for the system they grew up in? Who cultivated their values?
Also, perhaps remote learning bombed because the system failed to do it well?
The entire situation seems to reflect the upheaval happening in higher ed. When you have a problem this far reaching, you need to look at the system of power. The Academy as a system is structurally discriminatory. As an academic, I do not align with lowering standards; however, I can’t help but notice that these issues have skyrocketed alongside the diversification of the student body. Yes, there is the consumerist factor and other legit issues, but could it be that we need to redesign the system to better accommodate for the many, many ways that people learn and the various challenges and responsibilities that young people have?
We criticize the youth of today, but who is responsible for the system they grew up in? Who cultivated their values?
Also, perhaps remote learning bombed because the system failed to do it well?
Has nothing to do with age, and everything to do with ability. Ability declines with age. That is a scientific fact that cannot be changed with rhetoric.
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deleted1129370
Depends on the context. Some of work in contexts in which age and natural declines have real world consequences and effects on ones ability to competently practice their profession.
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deleted1129370
To be fair - I think what PsychPhDMama and myself were illuminating was the fact that the comments put out there by some folks went a bit beyond just stating simple facts of normal aging and the resulting decline. In fact, many folks in their 80's may not demonstrate the supposed decline many of us tend to have a bias towards. Notwithstanding this, it also potentially touches up on ableism which is another aspect of diversity and cultural sensitivity that potentially could come up in the context being described here. Much of the comments I saw were leaning in the direction of not only stating information about age-related decline, but in this case, was associating that with ability to function, and to add the cherry on top, it was done so in what an outside observe could infer, in a mockingly manner. So, like I previously mentioned, the comments I saw were on the "border" of what one could construe as speaking about this professor from the perspective of strictly age-related decline vs. that of being made fun of, but also those of similar demographics as this professor. Who is to say that we don't have other 80+ year olds lurking on this forum and came across those comments...I wonder what they would think?
If they were being honest and had insight? Most would acknowledge that certain cognitive abilities have declined, and at a steeper pace in the past decade. And, if their profession relies on those abilities then they are less effective at that job than they used to be.
Sanman
O.G.
See, this is where you lose me when diversity starts to ignore common sense. Please point to these 80 year olds that are seemingly immune to any age related cognitive decline. In fact, grab a digit span and compare them to a set of 20 year Olds, publish it, you will make your career. Then sue the NFL, MLB, NBA, etc for ageism. Haven't seen an 80 yr old pro football player...ever.
I will happily accept the labels of ageism and ableism if it is wrong to not want a blind uber driver or 80 year old professional boxer. Fact is that all of our abilities change with age. The mistake is in not valuing the diversity of the human experience, not sitting there saying we are all 100% equal. Age related cognitive decline does not mean old people useless just like an inability to drive does not make blind people useless. It means they may have other different skills to contribute.
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What? The mean raw scores go down. That’s a fact. Statistically, we define impairment relative to such demographics as age. There are fewer 80 year old professional athletes, porn stars, and other performance based professions. It’s non scientific to endorse the idea that there is not an age related cognitive decline. There are always outliers, which are interesting in their own right relative to the discussion of brain reserve vs cognitive reserve. Then there are issues of fluid vs crystallized intelligence, and the intersection thereof.
I would think it’s mean to put a 6 year old in a professional position and expect middle aged performance. Why would that be different on the other end of the normal curve?
I would think it’s mean to put a 6 year old in a professional position and expect middle aged performance. Why would that be different on the other end of the normal curve?
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deleted1129370
You are equating age with ability and frankly, none of the neuropsychology measures I know of have robust data to generalize in a significant manner to one's abilities to do things. In fact, a significant limitation to most if not all neuro measures is their poor external validity. Of this, I am sure you are aware of. This is a significant limitation in our available data and studies out there. Heck, even the gold standard for determining if a person can drive a vehicle again after a TBI....is a driving test. Not some arbitrary normed psychological measure. I am not in any disagreement with the facts you are stating - I am very well aware of these, but it's the translational aspect of these data that I am perplexed by, especially given the poor generalizability to every-day abilities. In the case of this professor, several comments alluded to this professor's supposed inabilities to do things based on his age. We have zero data from the available articles on this guy to suggest he has cognitive issues. People have simply inferred that from the available statistics, that since he is older, then he must be demonstrating some significant decline which therefore may have impacted his abilities to function as a professor, which therefore resulted in his poor reviews from the students, which resulted in his termination. It's B.S. It's the narrative folks are wanting to believe. But we simply don't know all of the available information about this guy. Therefore, much of what has been discussed is hearsay and at times, derogatory not only to this professor, but people of similar demographics.
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deleted1129370
News flash, most people (including my spouse) would say psychology is just a bunch of common sense lol. But we like to use data to go a bit beyond our grandma's sayings and philosophies. One would argue that your position epitomizes the very essence of ableism and ageism. IT is what it is. Psychology loves to label stuff. I get it. We love our "isms." Our field has found a way to take what wasn't really a problem into things that evidently are problems. That's the field we are in. Hey...in reality, I am just presenting this as a means of academic debate. I don't have a dog in the fight, and I am not married to my position on the matter, but I do like to see where folks stand on something like this and see how folks defend their positions. I know in the places I've been, you absolutely have folks who would bring this up the way I have done, and many would support them. Others...who knows. It's worth considering all points here. I hear "you all," you all make sound points to some extent, but maybe not others. So, as scientists and clinicians, should we do anything about it? Maybe not. I don't know. But I am sure I will not be the only person who had this observation nor point it out (and the fact that someone else chimed in proves my point).
Thankfully, “stuff my spouse says” is not a recognized academic tradition. And no one is asking spouses about “which neuroantomical and neuropathological correlate is associated with the observed cognitive impairment?”
Otherwise we have an unrealistic appraisals of my attractiveness. And your job can be done by your spouse.
Sanman
O.G.
Except that my argument is not based on grandma's sayings and the preponderance of evidence is on my side. What is the largest risk factor in the development of MCI or dementia (hint: it is not race or gender)? Do you have any evidence available to challenge that assertion?
Of course everything we have to say is hearsay. The article is hearsay. All stating that does is stifle conversation and discussion regarding reasonable possible conclusions. That is the same tactic that flat earthers and those that deny global warming use. The comments regarding the professor's age were a direct commentary on the comments in the article stating " I had this chemistry professor 30 years ago and he was great. Kids these days are just spoiled."
My entire point was that ability is not static and we do not stay the same. If I had said maybe the guy got a divorce and sucks at teaching because he is having personal issues, would I be biased against divorced people?
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deleted1129370
One could argue just that...
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One variable that is anecdotal to my experience: Back in my undergrad days everyone knew that organic chemistry was a very hard course. I knew myself and that it would likely not go well or be enjoyable for me, and chose to not take it.
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To your last point, no, you wouldn't be biased towards divorced people. Last time I checked, divorced people are not a protected class nor the subject of considerable discrimination and over-generalized attributions. Can't remember the last time I heard someone say "ah you know them divorced people, they tend to be XYZ." In this case, that is not what was being discussed, it was this professor's age and his supposed abilities that may or may not have been instrumental in his performance review by his students that may or may not have influenced him being fired. To your first point, there are several risk factors associated with MCI and dementia, and not all of them include age. Metabolic syndromes, history of head injuries are among several. But that is neither here nor there. People have automatically jumped to the conclusion that based on his age, that his poor performance and subsequent firing must have been due to age-related cognitive decline. That is a significant over-generalization being made by folks. It completely omits other variables not being entertained. Maybe he does have dementia. We don't know this, but the comments that were coming up were mentioned in a context that came off in what some could say were derogatory. That's the main point being made here. Also, some folks have mentioned porn stars and athletes, etc. and that we wouldn't expect them to perform so great in their older adult years. This is a very good example of what I am pointing out.
Frankly, neuropsychology is still catching up in the literature regarding ageism. Much of the prevailing concepts understandably have influenced implicit or overt ageist attitudes.
Navigating the Perfect Storm of Ageism, Mentalism, and Ableism: A Prevention Model - PMC
Many of society's systemic implicit biases against older persons predate COVID-19. A perfect storm of these biases now rages against older persons much more explicitly and visibly during the COVID-19 pandemic. They comprise of blends of ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
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Sanman
O.G.
To your last point, no, you wouldn't be biased towards divorced people. Last time I checked, divorced people are not a protected class nor the subject of considerable discrimination and over-generalized attributions. Can't remember the last time I heard someone say "ah you know them divorced people, they tend to be XYZ." In this case, that is not what was being discussed, it was this professor's age and his supposed abilities that may or may not have been instrumental in his performance review by his students that may or may not have influenced him being fired. To your first point, there are several risk factors associated with MCI and dementia, and not all of them include age. Metabolic syndromes, history of head injuries are among several. But that is neither here nor there. People have automatically jumped to the conclusion that based on his age, that his poor performance and subsequent firing must have been due to age-related cognitive decline. That is a significant over-generalization being made by folks. It completely omits other variables not being entertained. Maybe he does have dementia. We don't know this, but the comments that were coming up were mentioned in a context that came off in what some could say were derogatory. That's the main point being made here. Also, some folks have mentioned porn stars and athletes, etc. and that we wouldn't expect them to perform so great in their older adult years. This is a very good example of what I am pointing out.
Frankly, neuropsychology is still catching up in the literature regarding ageism. Much of the prevailing concepts understandably have influenced implicit or overt ageist attitudes.
Navigating the Perfect Storm of Ageism, Mentalism, and Ableism: A Prevention Model - PMC
Many of society's systemic implicit biases against older persons predate COVID-19. A perfect storm of these biases now rages against older persons much more explicitly and visibly during the COVID-19 pandemic. They comprise of blends of ...
Divorced people are not a protected class. However, people make negative generalizations about them all the time. Hence, cliches about divorcees being bitter, unable to function in relationships, lonely, miserable. Etc. They are judged constantly in the dating market and single people are often given extra work because people feel those without families can shoulder the extra burden. You seem to be a bit prejiduced in your thinking there.
So, who decides which people are protected classes and which are not? What makes their opinions more correct than the rest of ours?
The problem here is that you are making your own assumptions about what was said by us. No one suggested he had dementia. There is a large difference between suggesting that someone has dementia and suggesting they may not be providing peak performance.
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deleted1129370
Perception. That's what I think it boils down to. Like I said, I wasn't the only one who picked up on it. Hey...I don't know who gets to decide what. Seems like APA and other mysterious bodies at work often send out public service announcements on updates regarding inclusive language, what's acceptable vs. not, etc. Like I mentioned earlier, just pointing out on observation here. Seems like there is some defensiveness going on for all of us. I get it. Maybe I am prejudiced in my thinking. Maybe you are too? I am unsure who has more of a correct opinion than the rest. That's psychology for ya I suppose. Lastly, we all make assumptions, that's our bread and butter, so, I proudly own that. But like I said earlier, this has been more so an exercise in academic debate. I don't have a dog in the fight. Heck, in another threat I totally used and defended my use of the word "woke." I totally stand by it. Maybe you don't agree with it, maybe you do. That's cool. It seems like there are some very interesting perspectives being discussed here, and I think that's the level we can keep it at. No profound changes are going to occur here tonight.
Sanman
O.G.
What is the APA and other such bodies? Groups of people with expertise in an area that profer their opinions on a subject. Well, you are arguing with a geropsychologist and two neuropsychologists each with more than a decade of experience treating the population in question. If we all say that the possibility exists that age related cognitive decline may play a role in one's ability perform their profession at peak ability maybe it isn't just ageism. We aren't just three people on the street (unless that street is holding a neuropsych conference). Sometimes reality is not fair and equal, but that does not make it any less true.
In a just world, my vertical leap would be the same as Michael Jordan. It isn't, so he played basketball and I do this. At least I am entertained.
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deleted1129370
That's a pretty low move to make in order to assert your dominance on something. So, I guess those other experts who proffered their opinions with APA etc. are irrelevant. Either way, topic seems to be moot at this point.
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I think we should bring back putting old people on icebergs.
For real though: if I retire from from my first career and continue to do the same job into my 80s than I am not spending enough time spoiling my grandkids - god willing.
Leave the academy - cultivate a personality other than professor. Or certainly don’t throw a tantrum and run to the media when your students complain. This is what happens when you never do anything else than the academy. It’s kind of sad. Do you’ve really got nothing better to do? If so, you might want to look into that.
Btw- the same is true for Supreme Court justices. RBG should have retired so much earlier and preserved balance in the court but she had that old fart “I earned it because I’m old and deserve to be here” sort of thing.
This dude could die from old age/have a stroke/slip into impairment/ deal with any of the myriad of age related illnesses in the middle semester. That’s gonna be pretty disruptive to students learning. Did he think about that? Could derail a ton of students college plans.
Can you psychs who have adult norms look at a 50th percentile raw score for a 40 year old and see where that would place a an 80 year old on the ole normal curve? We talking one, two, or three standard deviations above the mean?
Btw: you can tell I’m not exactly being agist because I think we should raise the retirement age to like 70.
For real though: if I retire from from my first career and continue to do the same job into my 80s than I am not spending enough time spoiling my grandkids - god willing.
Leave the academy - cultivate a personality other than professor. Or certainly don’t throw a tantrum and run to the media when your students complain. This is what happens when you never do anything else than the academy. It’s kind of sad. Do you’ve really got nothing better to do? If so, you might want to look into that.
Btw- the same is true for Supreme Court justices. RBG should have retired so much earlier and preserved balance in the court but she had that old fart “I earned it because I’m old and deserve to be here” sort of thing.
This dude could die from old age/have a stroke/slip into impairment/ deal with any of the myriad of age related illnesses in the middle semester. That’s gonna be pretty disruptive to students learning. Did he think about that? Could derail a ton of students college plans.
Can you psychs who have adult norms look at a 50th percentile raw score for a 40 year old and see where that would place a an 80 year old on the ole normal curve? We talking one, two, or three standard deviations above the mean?
Btw: you can tell I’m not exactly being agist because I think we should raise the retirement age to like 70.
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I think one issue here, in part, is how we're defining impairment and disability in this context. We know that many cognitive skills decline with age (some earlier than others). We know that rates of cognitive impairment are higher as we age, for myriad reasons. We know that various occupations (some more than others, and at vastly differential rates) become more difficult with advancing age. So we need to look at the demands of the particular position in question. Me just thinking out loud: I imagine it could be viewed as ageist to assume a person couldn't successfully fulfil the minimum obligations of being a professor solely because they're 80 years old. In a situation where information is limited and seemingly most of what's known is that: 1) a person did have problems (by some definition), 2) the person is 80 years old, and 3) it's been said the person may not have had these same problems 30 years ago, is it ageism vs. an educated guess to hypothesize that age-related cognitive decline may have played a role in the problems? Maybe the idea of ageism is related to jumping to that hypothesis right out of the gate, or to applying population statistics to the individual?
Sanman
O.G.
A few points:
1. We are not jumping to the conclusion simply because of his age. It also has to do with him receiving 82 complaints from students. If we dismissed his abilities without any complaints, perhaps I could see a case of ageism there.
2. It is not simply about him being to fulfill the minimum requirements to teach. He may be doing so, the question is whether went from great to good, average, or below average. If we was in the 80th percentile 30 or 40 years ago and is in the 45th percentile in performance now he may be fulfilling the minimum requirements but also not performing as well as when those in the comments had him. That may also justify student complaints.
3. By not asking the question, we would be dismissing the complaints of 82 students. People are chalking that up to their generation and youth. I would suggest that has more ageist overtones than questioning the abilities of a single individual.
So, damned if you do and damned if you don't. Then any discussion becomes ageist.
Sanman
O.G.
Not really sure exactly what you are referring to as a 'low move'
If 3 oncologists looked at a picture of someone and noticed a possibly cancerous lesion would the response be to:
1. Go get it worked up and biopsied to see if there are any cancerous elements
Or
2. Attack the oncologists for not being accepting of alternative beauty standards.
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Either you’re a really horrible neuropsychologist who should never touch forensics or you need to get some self respect. This line of thinking is how you get crappy income.
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deleted1129370
Relax....it was a joke. Besides, I am not a neuropsychologist.
I’m extremely protective of our income. While self deprecation is a mature defense, it is toxic to income potential. Not using titles, saying anyone can do your job, etc… that teaches people our profession is worth less than others.
Like when midlevels say the same thing about physician jobs?
Jobs, not really. That's really a losing battle for physicians at this point. If you define the job, you raise a complicated issue of outcome metrics, which would likely find that the most complex jobs should go to the most educated groups. That would be a nightmare for lifestyle. Do you want to have a practice full of low functioning schizophrenics, while midlevels treat the high income neurotics?
I think it is much more important to identify the title. I think physicians are out of their minds for not emphasizing the term "physician". The AMA lost the "doctor title" war in like 2007, or whatever. Physician is the protected title, dating all the way back to Chaucer. If I were a physician, I would be identifying myself as "Physician" at all times (e.g., "I am Dr Heist, the psychiatric physician"). And I have no idea why you guys don't demand that every NP and PA list their supervising physician on their name badge, office note, bill, and every other document. That would prevent a DNP from hiding the issue (e.g., "Nursey McGee, DNP - supervised by Heist MD").
But none of that is my field.
Hospitals go out of their way to obfuscate the degrees so people won't know the difference. The state laws don't require they post the name of the supervisor physician.
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AMA could alter the ethics code to require it. Much much easier than changing laws in approximately 53 jurisdictions.
Ama is not backing doctors.
After years of training and board certification in my field, with experience the spans time, settings, and geographical location, my experience indicates that is an issue most of the time lol.
Some of my most effective teachers were incredibly, definitely clinically and almost criminally, unhinged. Just because it works, doesn’t mean it’s being done well.
If the issue turns out to be related to cognitive decline, albeit age-appropriate, none of what you mentioned will be helpful. I guess time will tell.
Please I don’t need any more reasons to be paranoid about traveling by air today. As I sit in an airport at this very moment 😢😱
If anything, the presence of the FAA evals should be reassuring for air travelers.
I think multiple people posting in this thread don’t have a fully clear or accurate understanding of what ageism means. My opinion. Firing an asian male because he sucks at his job is not racism. Acknowledging the fact that somebody who is in his mid-80s may not be as sharp as he used to be 30 years ago is definitely not ageism, regardless of whatever other factors may be at play. But a lot of personality types would rather be right than accurate, so I’ll let the debate continue if for no other reason but my sheer amusement as I await my flight.
Could be that the guy was an obnoxious egotistical professor for years and the culture finally caught up to him. I’ve seen that dynamic play out a few times. Maybe they should have canned him 20 years ago. Who knows? Just wild speculating like the rest of this thread. 😉
NYU’s Firing of a Chemistry Professor Caused a Furor. Here’s What He Has to Say About It.
New York University’s decision not to renew the faculty member’s contract became national news. The professor, Maitland Jones Jr., has a few thoughts on what happened.
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