First Generation College Students

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lakhanin

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Hi

I've heard mixed opinions about whether First Generation College Students(FGCS) qualify as being Socially disadvantaged. I've read the AMCAS URM definition, and the sticky at the top of this page-- and no, FGCS are not mentioned.

However, some websites will specifically offer programs for FGCS while others neglect to mention them. Can someone clarify this discrepancy for me?

Thanks!

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I myself qualified for disadvantaged status for other reasons, but I did briefly mention that background. I was told by several advisers to expand on that a bit so I included a blurb about it in my ps. More importantly,several of the people that interviewed me were quite interested in that detail about my past.
 
I see Anotherface, but being an otherwise ORM due to my skin/ethnicity, I'm hoping to make the case for being disadvantaged strictly in the first generation regard. I should also note, I'm not a low income or rural applicant either.

Not to bash URM's in any way, but First generation students face unique challenges in that they lack parents who are familiar with facing the challenges of college and academia. In fact, many URM's are arguabally disadvantaged strictly BECAUSE they are first generation... See here:
http://journals.lww.com/academicmed...rrepresented_Minorities_and_the_Health.7.aspx
 
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First generation students face unique challenges in that they lack parents who are familiar with facing the challenges of college and academia.
well you have to ask yourself, did you?

and if you did, it would most likely be backed up by one of the amcas definitions or something of that sort...

Disadvantaged Status
Disadvantaged status is self-determined and each medical school has their own
policies for how they use this information.

This information is voluntary and will not affect the processing of your application.

To help determine if you are disadvantaged, click the How do I know if I should be
considered disadvantaged?
link, which displays the following information:

Underserved: Do you believe, based on your own experiences or the
experiences of family and friends that the area in which you grew up was
inadequately served by the available health care professionals? Were there
enough physicians, nurses, hospitals, clinics, and other health care service
providers?
Immediate Family: The Federal Government broadly defines "immediate
family" as "spouse, parent, child, sibling, mother or father-in-law, son or
daughter-in-law, or sister or brother-in-law, including step and adoptive
relationships."
State and Federal Assistance Programs: These programs are specifically
defined as "Means-Tested Programs" under which the individual, family, or
household income and assets must be below specified thresholds. The
sponsoring agencies then provide cash and non-cash assistance to eligible
individuals, families, or households. Such programs include welfare benefit
programs (federal, state, and local); Aid to Families with Dependent Children
(AFDC or ADC); unemployment compensation; General Assistance (GA); food stamps; Supplemental Security Income (SSI); Medicaid; housing assistance;
or other federal, state, or local financial assistance programs.

Click the Yes button to be considered a disadvantaged applicant. A Disadvantaged
Status form will appear. Questions marked with an asterisk (*) are required.
 
I see Anotherface, but being an otherwise ORM due to my skin/ethnicity, I'm hoping to make the case for being disadvantaged strictly in the first generation regard. I should also note, I'm not a low income or rural applicant either.

Not to bash URM's in any way, but First generation students face unique challenges in that they lack parents who are familiar with facing the challenges of college and academia. In fact, many URM's are arguabally disadvantaged strictly BECAUSE they are first generation... See here:
http://journals.lww.com/academicmed...rrepresented_Minorities_and_the_Health.7.aspx

When you apply disadvantaged, each school interprets your situation differently based on your reply. If you can eloquently explain how being a 1st generation college student was a challenge you could try it. Personally, I didn't do it. I felt like, compared to students from low income or rural backgrounds, it wasn't a significant disadvantage that I faced and it would seem like I was stretching for reasons to be disadvantaged. Its up to you.

I should also point out that URM is NOT equal to applying disadvantaged. It's school dependent how they treat disadvantaged applicants and they don't really track it.
 
I see Anotherface, but being an otherwise ORM due to my skin/ethnicity, I'm hoping to make the case for being disadvantaged strictly in the first generation regard. I should also note, I'm not a low income or rural applicant either.

Not to bash URM's in any way, but First generation students face unique challenges in that they lack parents who are familiar with facing the challenges of college and academia. In fact, many URM's are arguabally disadvantaged strictly BECAUSE they are first generation... See here:
http://journals.lww.com/academicmed...rrepresented_Minorities_and_the_Health.7.aspx
The other reasons have little to do with my minority status, though they kind of go hand in hand. Now that I have given it more thought, I think it was a combination of factors that made me disadvantaged. I'm not sure that being FGCS in and out of itself could have made me disadvantaged.
 
Anotherface,

I beg to differ. A black or latino becomes a URM by default. If we look at the root cause of why Minorities are underrepresented, we see it is because they face significant disadvantages.

But many URM's are first generation. I'd argue that being first generation and having a family that is completely new to the college enviroment and the associated decisions made in college is what put's URM's behind in making it to medical school.

In my opinion, the only thing that tops not knowing how to handle the college life and academia is being low-income and never getting there in the first place--but then, minorities aren't the only poor people in this country.
 
Anotherface,

I beg to differ. A black or latino becomes a URM by default. If we look at the root cause of why Minorities are underrepresented, we see it is because they face significant disadvantages.

But many URM's are first generation. I'd argue that being first generation and having a family that is completely new to the college enviroment and the associated decisions made in college is what put's URM's behind in making it to medical school.

In my opinion, the only thing that tops not knowing how to handle the college life and academia is being low-income and never getting there in the first place--but then, minorities aren't the only poor people in this country.

The above is definitely not true. A "disadvantaged" white person can clean up and blend in. A black or latino person can't change their ethnicity and still face the discriminatory practices no matter what degree their parents had or didn't have.

I say this because, you can be the wealthiest, most educated black or latino person and still have some white cop shove your face in the dirt for no reason or find yourself on the wrong end of a gun. My best friend who is a Secret Service Agent with every type of Top Secret clearance in DC has been stopped multiple times, handcuffed and other things because he is latino, drives a Porsche and carries a firearm.

There are many facets to why minorities are often underrepresented in professional schools with race being high on the list. I am sorry that you grew up poor but you white and me black puts me at significant disadvantage when it comes to things like the criminal justice system and dealing with law enforcement and other societal interactions of which academia is just another.

I scored the highest grade in my undergraduate organic chemistry course and and won a scholarship prize for that achievement. I had several organic chemistry professors refuse to mentor me in undergraduate research even though I was the only student to apply with all As in chemistry. They were not looking for the best undergraduate researcher, they were looking for the whitest undergraduate researcher. In the end, the department chair became my mentor and I became a biochemist.
 
The above is definitely not true. A "disadvantaged" white person can clean up and blend in. A black or latino person can't change their ethnicity and still face the discriminatory practices no matter what degree their parents had or didn't have.

I say this because, you can be the wealthiest, most educated black or latino person and still have some white cop shove your face in the dirt for no reason or find yourself on the wrong end of a gun. My best friend who is a Secret Service Agent with every type of Top Secret clearance in DC has been stopped multiple times, handcuffed and other things because he is latino, drives a Porsche and carries a firearm.

There are many facets to why minorities are often underrepresented in professional schools with race being high on the list. I am sorry that you grew up poor but you white and me black puts me at significant disadvantage when it comes to things like the criminal justice system and dealing with law enforcement and other societal interactions of which academia is just another.

I scored the highest grade in my undergraduate organic chemistry course and and won a scholarship prize for that achievement. I had several organic chemistry professors refuse to mentor me in undergraduate research even though I was the only student to apply with all As in chemistry. They were not looking for the best undergraduate researcher, they were looking for the whitest undergraduate researcher. In the end, the department chair became my mentor and I became a biochemist.



PREACH!!

Thank you :thumbup:
 
njbd,

i'm sorry you faced racial discrimination in your life, but I feel like the fact that you have biased you're response.

According to your idea, racism can but you behind bars or behind the wrong side of a gun, while a white person can clean up and blend in... My point is that if you strip away the fact the color of URM's and look at why they don't make it far in academia you'll see being a first gen(like many URM's are--my underlying assumption in this argument) significantly cripples the family support you have away from school. When I went to college-I didn't know what a recitation was, how to set up my schedule, and felt embarrased asking silly questions that kids with educated parents already knew.

We all know academics is about building good study habits-- especially when you try to get into med school. You you're self post entire essay's about how to study and organize notes. Regardless of if you're white or black, or in my case... south asian, having some one at home that reinforces good academic practice in you is vital.

My friend that is in TeachforAmerica says that his kids who have parents that have been to school in america do many times better then kids whose parents are day laborers with no schooling.

Look at the flipside of you're arguement. If you're black and wealthy, you get to walk around on your high heels with URM status to help you get into programs and schools. If you're a plain First Gen, people don't realize that you face the same problems and disadvantages URM's do in terms of academic skills.
 
njbd,

i'm sorry you faced racial discrimination in your life, but I feel like the fact that you have biased you're response.

According to your idea, racism can but you behind bars or behind the wrong side of a gun, while a white person can clean up and blend in... My point is that if you strip away the fact the color of URM's and look at why they don't make it far in academia you'll see being a first gen(like many URM's are--my underlying assumption in this argument) significantly cripples the family support you have away from school. When I went to college-I didn't know what a recitation was, how to set up my schedule, and felt embarrased asking silly questions that kids with educated parents already knew.

We all know academics is about building good study habits-- especially when you try to get into med school. You you're self post entire essay's about how to study and organize notes. Regardless of if you're white or black, or in my case... south asian, having some one at home that reinforces good academic practice in you is vital.

My friend that is in TeachforAmerica says that his kids who have parents that have been to school in america do many times better then kids whose parents are day laborers with no schooling.

Look at the flipside of you're arguement. If you're black and wealthy, you get to walk around on your high heels with URM status to help you get into programs and schools. If you're a plain First Gen, people don't realize that you face the same problems and disadvantages URM's do in terms of academic skills.
I think you are misunderstanding the point. Yes, there is a disadvantage to not having parents than can help you prepare for the rigors of college... but that is not the core of the disadvantages many URMs face. it's more like icing on the cake. Discrimination, whether it be conscious or unconscious, has a very debilitating effect on the education and success of minorities. This isn't just in college. URM status isn't given to certain groups because of past injustices. It's an effort to ensure that a 95% white admissions committee isn't allowed to exclude all minorities, especially URMs which have been excluded from professional occupations for many years because of prejudice and bias.


So the flipside of your argument, for the "black & wealthy" that are "benefitting" from URM status makes no sense at all because discrimination doesn't care about the numbers in your bank account. People usually assume I'm poor and uneducated or that I don't speak English. I even had an interviewer at a medical school compliment me on my English speaking skills (even though no where on my application does it say I speak Spanish). Until you can change those stereotypes and pre-judgments, then no, not being prepared for college will not outweigh discrimination.
 
I think you are misunderstanding the point. Yes, there is a disadvantage to not having parents than can help you prepare for the rigors of college... but that is not the core of the disadvantages many URMs face. it's more like icing on the cake. Discrimination, whether it be conscious or unconscious, has a very debilitating effect on the education and success of minorities. This isn't just in college. URM status isn't given to certain groups because of past injustices. It's an effort to ensure that a 95% white admissions committee isn't allowed to exclude all minorities, especially URMs which have been excluded from professional occupations for many years because of prejudice and bias.


So the flipside of your argument, for the "black & wealthy" that are "benefitting" from URM status makes no sense at all because discrimination doesn't care about the numbers in your bank account. People usually assume I'm poor and uneducated or that I don't speak English. I even had an interviewer at a medical school compliment me on my English speaking skills (even though no where on my application does it say I speak Spanish). Until you can change those stereotypes and pre-judgments, then no, not being prepared for college will not outweigh discrimination.

very well Dr. Lyss,

I see that URM status is given to make up for the past discrimination of white medical school admissions boards against selecting an all white med school class--I understand this sort of action by the US government. The government did the same thing for native americans after treating them horribly too.

But look beyond URM's and Whites.... there's a vast number of ethnicities you're forgetting about. Consider the "public ivy" universtiy I attend. I stepped up and created a first generation student council there after school administration approached first generation's trying to help us.

For years the droppout rates among URM's was getting higher and higher at my university. No body was being racist to URM's-we're a very good, clean school in that regard. They weren't leaving b/c a cop pulled them over years ago and gave them a ticket just because they were URM. They weren't hindered from making it to medical school by racism, they were hindered by the daunting academic and financial demands of university

My university has many programs which give these URM and low income students huge financial aid and many times "full rides". This failed to lower the drop out rate. Finally a first generation university worker re ranked the list not by minority status, but by first generation status. It was clear--first generations students were dropping out the most every year.

I'm sure you doctors go through this type of mistake all the time. A patient see's 15 specialists all diagnosing her(an 88lb women as anorexic) untill one physician decides to take things from the beginning and really listen to the patient(instead of the 15 specialists) and see that the true issue is an allergy to gluten.

Changing your perspective can provide new ideas about the root cause of an issue

So yes racism exists, and will continue to act against minorities in USA. But you've got a slim chance convincing me that b/c of racism URM's are not reaching their true goals. The universities today are compensating with these URM programs.
 
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I think you are misunderstanding the point. Yes, there is a disadvantage to not having parents than can help you prepare for the rigors of college... but that is not the core of the disadvantages many URMs face. it's more like icing on the cake. Discrimination, whether it be conscious or unconscious, has a very debilitating effect on the education and success of minorities. This isn't just in college. URM status isn't given to certain groups because of past injustices. It's an effort to ensure that a 95% white admissions committee isn't allowed to exclude all minorities, especially URMs which have been excluded from professional occupations for many years because of prejudice and bias.


So the flipside of your argument, for the "black & wealthy" that are "benefitting" from URM status makes no sense at all because discrimination doesn't care about the numbers in your bank account. People usually assume I'm poor and uneducated or that I don't speak English. I even had an interviewer at a medical school compliment me on my English speaking skills (even though no where on my application does it say I speak Spanish). Until you can change those stereotypes and pre-judgments, then no, not being prepared for college will not outweigh discrimination.

Atta girl Lyss ;)...the kid just isn't getting it so I feel like any attempt to try and educate them isn't going to help. He/she keeps reiterating the same points without realizing that he/she is completely misinterpreting the situation.

When you grow up and become a doctor, nobody is going to know you were a first generation student and nobody will question your ability for it, unlike most of us in this forum who will constantly be talked down to and questioned. First-gen isn't tattooed on your face.
 
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Hi

I've heard mixed opinions about whether First Generation College Students(FGCS) qualify as being Socially disadvantaged. I've read the AMCAS URM definition, and the sticky at the top of this page-- and no, FGCS are not mentioned.

However, some websites will specifically offer programs for FGCS while others neglect to mention them. Can someone clarify this discrepancy for me?

Thanks!
I didn't apply disadvantaged, but when asked in secondaries I did mention being first generation, etc, and what ended up happening was that I recieved some stuff in the mail from UCSF because they considered me disadvantaged (only UCSF though, and that's out of 30 schools).

My point: if UCSF considers that situation 'disadvantaged' then I'm sure you can probably get away with using it. IMHO, it IS a disadvantage. Getting money for school and getting good grades isn't the hard part, the hard part is figuring out who everything in Academia works (from studying to becoming "competitive") when you've got nothing to work with. LOL. When I decided to become a physician, I personally just thought I'd sign up for classes and didnt' even consider the fact that people got weeded out. hahaha.
 
It's an effort to ensure that a 95% white admissions committee isn't allowed to exclude all minorities, especially URMs which have been excluded from professional occupations for many years because of prejudice and bias.
In the USA in the year 2009, that's offensive and inflammatory. First of all, show me an admissions committee in any medical school that's 95% white. According to the AMA, approximately 47% of physicians are white when the white population of the US is approximately 66%. If the "95% white" admissions committee's (that don't exist) were into actively 'excluding' minorities for reasons other than academic reasons, that composition would surely be different.

In Academia there is far more "socioeconomic and political bias" than "race bias".

And, in the future, please refrain from making racially inflammatory remarks that are unsubstantiated.
 
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Atta girl Lyss ;)...the kid just isn't getting it so I feel like any attempt to try and educate them isn't going to help. He/she keeps reiterating the same points without realizing that he/she is completely misinterpreting the situation.

When you grow up and become a doctor, nobody is going to know you were a first generation student and nobody will question your ability for it, unlike most of us in this forum who will constantly be talked down to and questioned. First-gen isn't tattooed on your face.
I believe they were talking about getting into medical school and the need for URM status to be considered when admissions committee's make a decision. In that regard, your post is completely off topic.
 
I scored the highest grade in my undergraduate organic chemistry course and and won a scholarship prize for that achievement.
They gave scholarships for that at your school? LOL... wish I went there, college would have been a lot cheaper. Especially if they offerned them in physics, etc.

I had several organic chemistry professors refuse to mentor me in undergraduate research even though I was the only student to apply with all As in chemistry. They were not looking for the best undergraduate researcher, they were looking for the whitest undergraduate researcher. In the end, the department chair became my mentor and I became a biochemist.
Depending on the year and the place, that is a possibility. However, there is also the possibility that you rubbed them the wrong way. I don't know you well enough to make accusations, and I'm not saying you're an ass or anything like that, just that you need to consider that option. Also consider you've got an n=1 experience.

I was walking around campus the other day and, like always, I smile and say hi to the people coming and going (figuring many of them are my upperclassmen and whatnot) and you know what I get in return? They ignored me... about 4 separate occasions. This happened and the "offenders" were asian/indian, and I'm white. Do I think they're racist? Nope... just @$$ hole elitists who don't realize that smart people are a dime a dozen and that they're actually nothing special. If I were at a grocery store among the general population, almost everybody (of every color) would have responded in kind with a smile and a nod. I make a point to remember that and not get worked up. I'll just laugh at them and respond for them (e.g. "Oh, you must be doing great!") ^_^
 
In the USA in the year 2009, that's offensive and inflammatory. First of all, show me an admissions committee in any medical school that's 95% white. According to the AMA, approximately 47% of physicians are white when the white population of the US is approximately 66%. If the "95% white" admissions committee's (that don't exist) were into actively 'excluding' minorities for reasons other than academic reasons, that composition would surely be different.

In Academia there is far more "socioeconomic and political bias" than "race bias".

And, in the future, please refrain from making racially inflammatory remarks that are unsubstantiated.
Nothing I said was racially inflammatory. I never said that all white admissions committees are actively looking to exclude minorities from medicine. That would be ludicrous and illegal. If you read what i wrote I said minorities were excluded through prejudice and bias - both of which often act on a subconscious level. If you are trying to convince me that medical school admissions and staff are not majority white in most medical schools then good luck. You can throw whatever percentages you want around, everyone knows medicine has been a good ol' boys club for a long time. The field of medicine is predominantly Caucasian. That is fact. Obviously I was exaggerating when I said 95% (and I was actually referring to the past before they put URM measures in place when adcoms were probably 100% white. i was actually being generous).

So we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I've been fortunate enough to interview and visit a lot of med schools and at most of the schools the admissions and academic depts were definitely lacking in diversity. Maybe if they had more diversity, they wouldn't have to go out of their way to show me & other minority students
how "minority friendly" they are or introduce us to the URM faculty.
 
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Nothing I said was racially inflammatory. I never said that all white admissions committees are actively looking to exclude minorities from medicine.
It sure sounded like it.. please see your own statement below.
That would be ludicrous and illegal. If you read what i wrote I said minorities were excluded through prejudice and bias - both of which often act on a subconscious level.
Oh, so it's a force which we can't actually control. No matter how hard we try, because we're white, we'll just exclude minorities at the subconcious level? LOL... I hope your realize that your statement sounds ridiculous.

If you are trying to convince me that medical school admissions and staff are not majority white in most medical schools then good luck. You can throw whatever percentages you want around, everyone knows medicine has been a good ol' boys club for a long time. The field of medicine is predominantly Caucasian. That is fact.
I gave you the numbers straight from the AMA. And, unless you think that 47% white physician population in a country that is 66% white equates to "predominantly" (which is crazy to think), then I don't know what the heck you're talking about. And, unless you want to ignore that "real" facts according to the AMA, then what you said is obviously not a fact.


...URM status isn't given to certain groups because of past injustices. It's an effort to ensure that a 95% white admissions committee isn't allowed to exclude all minorities, especially URMs which have been excluded from professional occupations for many years because of prejudice and bias.
<-- That is racially inflammatory. You essentially state that, if the "white" admissions committee wasn't forced to do otherwise, they would exclude all minorities. You can explain away this statement, unless you simply did a poor job of explaining what you felt and didn't actually intend for it to come out this way.

So the flipside of your argument, for the "black & wealthy" that are "benefitting" from URM status makes no sense at all because discrimination doesn't care about the numbers in your bank account. People usually assume I'm poor and uneducated or that I don't speak English. I even had an interviewer at a medical school compliment me on my English speaking skills (even though no where on my application does it say I speak Spanish).
Even white people are "complimented" on their command of the English language. If you speak the language well, people compliment you!

Until you can change those stereotypes and pre-judgments, then no, not being prepared for college will not outweigh discrimination.
My guess is that your not a 1st gen college student coming from a blue collar background. School is easy once you know what you're doing. Show up, do the work, go home. Dont have money? Get a job and take loans. It's exceptionally simple. Getting to college, understanding how it works and why it's important, etc, etc. is difficult. And, having a support group behind you, preparing you from birth to be ready to enter college, etc makes the process considerably easier. There are, in fact, minorites that are successful in college. In fact, the MOST successful minority with regards to college education is the African immigrant.

I've been fortunate enough to interview...
LOL. You act like I've never been to a medical school before.
 
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It sure sounded like it.. please see your own statement below.
Oh, so it's a force which we can't actually control. No matter how hard we try, because we're white, we'll just exclude minorities at the subconcious level? LOL... I hope your realize that your statement sounds ridiculous.

are you trying to tell me that there are no prejudice people? That people don't judge based on the color of your skin? So if we all say "hey let's be equal" that BAM everyone is equal? Please tell me where that exists because I'll be on the next flight. What I'm saying is that people tend to identify with people like themselves. So if there are not a lot of people on an admissions committee that understand the unique difficulties a disadvantaged or URM student might face then they might get a deaf ear. Since you know so much and racism/prejudice/inequality doesn't exist, why oh why have the numbers of minorities in medicine been increasing in the past few decades? Were there no qualified minorities before? Is it only recently that we have become "qualified"?


I gave you the numbers straight from the AMA. And, unless you think that 47% white physician population in a country that is 66% white equates to "predominantly" (which is crazy to think), then I don't know what the heck you're talking about. And, unless you want to ignore that "real" facts according to the AMA, then what you said is obviously not a fact.

Ok if 47% of physicians are white, how many are black? how many hispanic? Let's compare that to the 47% white physicians working in medicine. How many work in academia?


Even white people are "complimented" on their command of the English language. If you speak the language well, people compliment you!

Are you serious? So do people regularly walk up to you and assume you don't speak English? That has to be a joke.

My guess is that your not a 1st gen college student coming from a blue collar background. School is easy once you know what you're doing. Show up, do the work, go home. Dont have money? Get a job and take loans. It's exceptionally simple. Getting to college, understanding how it works and why it's important, etc, etc. is difficult. And, having a support group behind you, preparing you from birth to be ready to enter college, etc makes the process considerably easier. There are, in fact, minorites that are successful in college. In fact, the MOST successful minority with regards to college education is the African immigrant.

Not that it is any of your business, but I am. Not only am I the first person to graduate from college. I'm the first person ever to graduate from high school in my family. I might not have had family or friends to help me prepare for college but I definitely had the motivation and support. But I know many people aren't as lucky. I don't disagree with what you think about 1st generation students. Is it a disadvantage, yes. But its a hurdle that can be lessened if you have the right resources available to you, which most colleges in the US have.

LOL. You act like I've never been to a medical school before.

Right back at you ;)


I'm not going to get into an internet shouting argument with you. I have better things to do with my time. You can believe whatever you want to believe. Good luck with that.
 
are you trying to tell me that there are no prejudice people? That people don't judge based on the color of your skin? So if we all say "hey let's be equal" that BAM everyone is equal? Please tell me where that exists because I'll be on the next flight.
You're now approaching the point where I'm beginning to question whether you actually read what I wrote. Of course there are prejudice people on this planet. I never even hinted at anything close to what you're saying. I just pointed out how ridiculous it sounded when you were essentially stating that white people can't help but subconciously exclude URM's from medical admissions.

What I'm saying is that people tend to identify with people like themselves. So if there are not a lot of people on an admissions committee that understand the unique difficulties a disadvantaged or URM student might face then they might get a deaf ear.
You mean how the argument of a 1st gen student is facing the deaf ear of Dr. Lyss?

Overall, I don't disagree. But the point of the interview is to get an idea of who that person is. People meet with others so that they can put thier preconceptions aside and make an accurate judgement of a someone else.

Since you know so much and racism/prejudice/inequality doesn't exist, why oh why have the numbers of minorities in medicine been increasing in the past few decades? Were there no qualified minorities before? Is it only recently that we have become "qualified"?
Really, you're making very silly statements. I didn't say it doesn't exist. You're taking it to an extreme. Of course there will be racism originating at people of all colors and directed at other people of all colors, but not enough to have any significant effect on admissions.

And, of course URM admissions are going up over the past few decades. In the past there was racism that was keeping people out. This was addressed with affirmative action, etc, and then people largely came to accept and cherish the diversity over several generations.


Ok if 47% of physicians are white, how many are black? how many hispanic? Let's compare that to the 47% white physicians working in medicine. How many work in academia?
An exceedingly small percentage are black, and a proportionately smaller percentage are hispanic. But, then there are the over-represented minorities. Do you suppose the "unconcious racism" of the white person is selective? I find that hard to believe... it's likely there are other factors contributing. I don't want to get into that, but my point was that the number of practicing white physicians vs. the number of white people in the population don't support the theory that there is a "good ol boys club" of white people who are "unconciously" (and selectively) keeping hispanics and blacks out of medical school.

Are you serious? So do people regularly walk up to you and assume you don't speak English? That has to be a joke.
Did the person you spoke of assume you didn't speak English? I don't think I've ever met a person in the USA who assumed a black person couldn't speak English. So, I highly doubt that was the case for you.

People compliment well spoken people on their command of the English language all of the time! In fact, I personally have a great appreciation for people who speak English fantastically (and envy them), so when I meet someone who has a great command of the English language I always let them know, regardless of their color.

Not that it is any of your business, but I am. Not only am I the first person to graduate from college. I'm the first person ever to graduate from high school in my family. I might not have had family or friends to help me prepare for college but I definitely had the motivation and support. But I know many people aren't as lucky. I don't disagree with what you think about 1st generation students. Is it a disadvantage, yes. But its a hurdle that can be lessened if you have the right resources available to you, which most colleges in the US have.
I agree. There are enough resources available that anybody in the US can make it if they want to.

I'm not going to get into an internet shouting argument with you. I have better things to do with my time. You can believe whatever you want to believe. Good luck with that.
That's fine. However, i noticed you selectively avoided my comment about the success of African immigrants in the US. I'd at least appreciate it if you can address that.
 
Did the person you spoke of assume you didn't speak English? I don't think I've ever met a person in the USA who assumed a black person couldn't speak English. So, I highly doubt that was the case for you.

People compliment well spoken people on their command of the English language all of the time! In fact, I personally have a great appreciation for people who speak English fantastically (and envy them), so when I meet someone who has a great command of the English language I always let them know, regardless of their color.

1. I'm Hispanic.

2. No I don't think he assumed I didn't speak English but a lot of people do. I think he was just surprised at how well I speak English. He was even more surprised to learn I don't speak Spanish ;)


I agree. There are enough resources available that anybody in the US can make it if they want to.

That's not what I said.

That's fine. However, i noticed you selectively avoided my comment about the success of African immigrants in the US. I'd at least appreciate it if you can address that.

I didn't respond to it because it didn't pertain to anything I was talking about. I never said nor do I believe that minorities can't be successful in college. The fact that African immigrants are the most successful group reflects the hard working attitude that is apparent in their culture. How does this connect to what you were stating before? If they can do it then prejudice doesn't exist? or anyone can do it?


Somehow you have this impression that I think White America is out to get me & other minority groups and that is simply not true. I don't think that... but I'm not idealistic enough to think that prejudice doesn't exist. You keep demeaning my comments and saying I'm ridiculous but I think there's room for two in that boat. If saying that adcoms are overwhelmingly white and can have a bias for non-URMs offended you then I'm sorry ;) ............. truth hurts :D

None of this has anything to do with the OPs original question about whether being a 1st gen student alone is enough to claim disadvantaged status.
 
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1. I'm Hispanic.

2. No I don't think he assumed I didn't speak English but a lot of people do. I think he was just surprised at how well I speak English. He was even more surprised to learn I don't speak Spanish ;)
My bad... I confused you with someone else from previous posts. In that case, if you don't mind, where were you born? If it wasn't outside of the US then I'd have to say that you're right and the interviewer really should have considered what he was saying.

That's not what I said.
Well, it's still true.

I didn't respond to it because it didn't pertain to anything I was talking about. I never said nor do I believe that minorities can't be successful in college. The fact that African immigrants are the most successful group reflects the hard working attitude that is apparent in their culture. How does this connect to what you were stating before? If they can do it then prejudice doesn't exist? or anyone can do it?
You speak of a "good 'ol boys club" and racism in academia that keeps people down. If that were the case, then surely the African immigrant would be inlcluded... but they're not.


Somehow you have this impression that I think White America is out to get me & other minority groups and that is simply not true.
Well, reread your posts and tell me you don't find it a reasonable conclusion to come to. :lol:

I don't think that... but I'm not idealistic enough to think that prejudice doesn't exist. You keep demeaning my comments and saying I'm ridiculous but I think there's room for two in that boat. If saying that adcoms are overwhelmingly white and can have a bias for non-URMs offended you then I'm sorry ;) ............. truth hurts :D
Well, what you said here is a much softer version of what you previously said. I couldn't entirely disagree with this statement. However, when you're talking about 95% white adcom [subconciously of course, and selectively] excluding URM's, that's a whole different story.

Having said that, of course I believe prejudices exist. It's just a fact of life. To what degree they exist and how they affect people, that's where you and I disagree.

None of this has anything to do with the OPs original question about whether being a 1st gen student alone is enough to claim disadvantaged status.
Very true. But, I responded to a post of yours that I personally found to be ridiculous and offensive, which was also completely unrealted to the OP's question.

Meh, whatever... You seem like a nice enough person (although I still think some of your statements were 'ridiculous' :p). I'm sure we'd get along overall. I'd just encourage you to have a little more faith in the intentions (and subconcious actions) of what Americans.
 
My bad... I confused you with someone else from previous posts. In that case, if you don't mind, where were you born? If it wasn't outside of the US then I'd have to say that you're right and the interviewer really should have considered what he was saying.

Born and raised in NY :D It was definitely a slip on his part but it wasn't a huge deal. I'm not easily offended, just hyper-aware I guess ;) It just clued me in to the fact that he was putting me into a box before he met me. Hell, I do it to people too. It's a sad result of the culture we live in.

Well, it's still true.

You speak of a "good 'ol boys club" and racism in academia that keeps people down. If that were the case, then surely the African immigrant would be inlcluded... but they're not.

success is a relative term. The African immigrant might be the most successful group in college, but that doesn't mean that they are even close to the college grad rate of White students or students from high income backgrounds. It makes sense that the African immigrant would be the most successful because, I think, immigrants from many different countries have a VeRy different attitude towards education and self-confidence. They haven't been exposed to a negative culture their whole life that constantly stereotypes them as gangbangers or criminals or uneducated. And, from my experience, immigrant parents tend to be VERY involved in their children's lives and push education. My parents are not immigrants, but I know that in my family and many of my friends, the question was WHERE do you go to college - not going was not an option. The success and failure of minority groups in the US is complicated and there is not just one or two factors that can explain or excuse it.

When I was referring to the good ol' boys club, I was actually referring to medicine ;) Clearly, these minority groups haven't successfully breached medicine or we wouldn't have such a disparity that led to URM status.

Well, reread your posts and tell me you don't find it a reasonable conclusion to come to. :lol:

Well, what you said here is a much softer version of what you previously said. I couldn't entirely disagree with this statement. However, when you're talking about 95% white adcom [subconciously of course, and selectively] excluding URM's, that's a whole different story.

I apologize if that comment rubbed you the wrong way. I guess I should have made it clear that I was referring to the PAST when it really was an all white group actively excluding minorities, which led to affirmative action policies that would make that less likely. I DON'T think this is happening today. If it were, then I wouldn't have been accepted to ANY school because I know there are 100s of more qualified, cooler URM applicants than myself. I am a fluke.

Having said that, of course I believe prejudices exist. It's just a fact of life. To what degree they exist and how they affect people, that's where you and I disagree.

Agreed


Very true. But, I responded to a post of yours that I personally found to be ridiculous and offensive, which was also completely unrealted to the OP's question.

Meh, whatever... You seem like a nice enough person (although I still think some of your statements were 'ridiculous' :p). I'm sure we'd get along overall. I'd just encourage you to have a little more faith in the intentions (and subconcious actions) of what Americans.

there is always room to grow and people never cease to amaze me. Heck, I'm constantly amazed by my bf (who is whiter than snow) and how we shatter each other's stereotypes everyday.

I was going to say I'm not this abrasive in person, but I thought about it and I definitely am :laugh: But I apologize if I offended you and I propose we have a SDN beer summit in the class of 2013 thread. My treat ;)
 
1. @ Dr. Lyss, you're showing your Boricuaness with all this feisty attitude... :laugh: I love it

2. Can I see an actual site that shows only 47% of physicians are white? Or is it only white males? Is this including Arabs as white or not? I'm skeptical.

3. Of course African immigrants are going to be the "most successful" college students. If you immigrate from Africa, #1 you are probably fairly wealthy or of a higher African class and #2 you're parents will never let you forget that they came here for you. African refugees on the other hand tend to fall more in line with blacks and hispanics from what I've seen.

4. @bakanoisha I'm not sure if you have ever watched the news in NY or any place where there are lots of minorities...but they don't exactly portray us in the best light. Subliminal prejudice and racism comes from things such as this (not that I'm saying it plays a role in Med School Admissions, but it's in the general population). It's reasons like this that women clutch their bags or cross the street when they see me or my friends walking towards them. And it's reasons like this why somebody may look at me and be surprised I speak English so well...Or a good one was when my dad (who is an engineer with no foreign accent save a NY one) was asked by a loan officer at a bank if he had indoor plumbing...I'm sure they ask all of the white loan applicants the same thing :rolleyes: :laugh:

@ DR Lyss...good job fighting while I wasn't here...proud of you :laugh:
 
i really don't understand what the confusion is...

if you are a FGCS, do you really think you are as disadvantaged as those with issues stated in the disadvantaged criteria?

like have a child at an extremely young age?

or living on welfare for a good amount of your childhood?

or forced to live in a project development operated by the government?

or having parents that faced unemployment more often than they faced a steady paycheck?

granted, those that usually end up in those situations, their parents didn't have an education and it probably contributed to their disadvantaged situation, but there are too many of those without an education that do succeed to say it is the sole reason.

being disadvantaged is about the access to resources. you already stated you are not from a low income family and in an urban area, so you had access to resources. there is no denying it. if you feel as though you and/or your family weren't "familiar with facing the challenges of college and academia," you could've just asked someone and seek guidance.

i am a FGCS. my mother is an immigrant and didn't get an education when she came into the states as a kid. If anything though, i think that was more of a push to succeed than something making me disadvantaged. go to areas of bountiful disadvantaged citizens. see what its like. its closer to a 3rd world country than to wherever you're from.
 
1. @ Dr. Lyss, you're showing your Boricuaness with all this feisty attitude... :laugh: I love it

2. Can I see an actual site that shows only 47% of physicians are white? Or is it only white males? Is this including Arabs as white or not? I'm skeptical.

3. Of course African immigrants are going to be the "most successful" college students. If you immigrate from Africa, #1 you are probably fairly wealthy or of a higher African class and #2 you're parents will never let you forget that they came here for you. African refugees on the other hand tend to fall more in line with blacks and hispanics from what I've seen.

4. @bakanoisha I'm not sure if you have ever watched the news in NY or any place where there are lots of minorities...but they don't exactly portray us in the best light. Subliminal prejudice and racism comes from things such as this (not that I'm saying it plays a role in Med School Admissions, but it's in the general population). It's reasons like this that women clutch their bags or cross the street when they see me or my friends walking towards them. And it's reasons like this why somebody may look at me and be surprised I speak English so well...Or a good one was when my dad (who is an engineer with no foreign accent save a NY one) was asked by a loan officer at a bank if he had indoor plumbing...I'm sure they ask all of the white loan applicants the same thing :rolleyes: :laugh:

@ DR Lyss...good job fighting while I wasn't here...proud of you :laugh:

:love: this is why I love u :D I knew you liked em feisty :laugh:
 
i really don't understand what the confusion is...

if you are a FGCS, do you really think you are as disadvantaged as those with issues stated in the disadvantaged criteria?

like have a child at an extremely young age?

or living on welfare for a good amount of your childhood?

or forced to live in a project development operated by the government?

or having parents that faced unemployment more often than they faced a steady paycheck?

granted, those that usually end up in those situations, their parents didn't have an education and it probably contributed to their disadvantaged situation, but there are too many of those without an education that do succeed to say it is the sole reason.

being disadvantaged is about the access to resources. you already stated you are not from a low income family and in an urban area, so you had access to resources. there is no denying it. if you feel as though you and/or your family weren't "familiar with facing the challenges of college and academia," you could've just asked someone and seek guidance.

i am a FGCS. my mother is an immigrant and didn't get an education when she came into the states as a kid. If anything though, i think that was more of a push to succeed than something making me disadvantaged. go to areas of bountiful disadvantaged citizens. see what its like. its closer to a 3rd world country than to wherever you're from.

:thumbup: Amen!
 
1. Telling a first gen you could have just asked for help is like telling someone who experiences racism just to ignore it and move one with their life.

2. I don't want to encourage more of the Lyss, ChemEng sucking up to each other so i'll go with Lyss and say we will agree to disagree.

Good luck , I hope you become professional.

EDIT*** to new readers of this thread, be wary of URM seeded disadvantaged status. There should be no discrimination between disadvantaged status of URM' and first gen's!
 
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1. Telling a first gen you could have just asked for help is like telling someone who experiences racism just to ignore it and move one with their life.

2. I don't want to encourage more of the Lyss, ChemEng sucking up to each other so i'll go with Lyss and say we will agree to disagree.

Good luck , I hope you become professional.

EDIT*** to new readers of this thread, be wary of URM seeded disadvantaged status. There should be no discrimination between disadvantaged status of URM' and first gen's!


hahahaha wow....dude it's a joke between me and Lyss...we have a SDN child named Jose, chill :laugh:

See Lyss, I knew joint custody wouldn't work...you just gotta give him back to me :laugh:
 
2. Can I see an actual site that shows only 47% of physicians are white? Or is it only white males? Is this including Arabs as white or not? I'm skeptical.

Someone lied. The real estimate is no where near 47% - try 69-74%. bakanoisha claims to have gotten it from the AMA (anyone else here not fully trust the AMA?), so either the AMA lied or I'm not sure where bakanoisha pulled that stat from (well, I have one guess :laugh:).

While this data is from 2000, 1) I doubt the percentage of practicing White physicians has dropped 25% in under a decade and 2) it comes straight from the US Government - doesn't get much more valid than that. That would then make white doctors approximately 3-8% over-represented.

The site also reports that approximately 1/4 of Americans are either Black or Hispanic, yet together, they constitute only ~9% of the physician workforce... Personally, I think that stat is (unintentionally) slightly overinflated, but you get the point...
 
hahahaha wow....dude it's a joke between me and Lyss...we have a SDN child named Jose, chill :laugh:

See Lyss, I knew joint custody wouldn't work...you just gotta give him back to me :laugh:
I know... you should just dump your gf and come live with me and your SDN love child.
 
I know... you should just dump your gf and come live with me and your SDN love child.


And get beat up by your red-headed italian? :p not trying to let that happen lol
 
And get beat up by your red-headed italian? :p not trying to let that happen lol
:laugh: don't worry I'll protect you. You're my baby daddy, he's just a jump off I swear! HaHa
 
1. Telling a first gen you could have just asked for help is like telling someone who experiences racism just to ignore it and move one with their life.

Good luck , I hope you become professional.

yea, and good job to just resorting to juvenile comments. i'm not going to entertain that. that's something i can ignore and continue to act civilized.

a FGCS can ask for help if they are not a minority, as there is no racism to worry about. you are just looking for information. last time i checked, information comes in the form of books, papers, counselors at school, and other people you can ask. i dont see how that it like racism. as a FGCS, I def. did just ask for help and read up on things. it was pretty simple.

telling someone to ignore racism is totally different. throughout life you need assistance of other citizens for a lot of things. it's possible at some points to ignore because you can go to other people and resources, and i encourage it all the time...but if certain people hold the cards to the game, it's kinda tough to ignore. don't you think?
 
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well you have to ask yourself, did you?

and if you did, it would most likely be backed up by one of the amcas definitions or something of that sort...

Disadvantaged Status
Disadvantaged status is self-determined and each medical school has their own
policies for how they use this information.

This information is voluntary and will not affect the processing of your application.

To help determine if you are disadvantaged, click the How do I know if I should be
considered disadvantaged? link, which displays the following information:

Underserved: Do you believe, based on your own experiences or the
experiences of family and friends that the area in which you grew up was
inadequately served by the available health care professionals? Were there
enough physicians, nurses, hospitals, clinics, and other health care service
providers?
Immediate Family: The Federal Government broadly defines "immediate
family" as "spouse, parent, child, sibling, mother or father-in-law, son or
daughter-in-law, or sister or brother-in-law, including step and adoptive
relationships."
State and Federal Assistance Programs: These programs are specifically
defined as "Means-Tested Programs" under which the individual, family, or
household income and assets must be below specified thresholds. The
sponsoring agencies then provide cash and non-cash assistance to eligible
individuals, families, or households. Such programs include welfare benefit
programs (federal, state, and local); Aid to Families with Dependent Children
(AFDC or ADC); unemployment compensation; General Assistance (GA); food stamps; Supplemental Security Income (SSI); Medicaid; housing assistance;
or other federal, state, or local financial assistance programs.

Click the Yes button to be considered a disadvantaged applicant. A Disadvantaged
Status form will appear. Questions marked with an asterisk (*) are required.
so im sorry to highjack, but i was wondering what your thoughts were on the first point under disadvantaged. when i applied to smdep, i had a little superscript thing that stated i was from a medically underserved region...i think it is true, but ive definitely found ways to work around that in college so id never consider applying disadvantaged. i was just wondering if the same superscript thing would be on amcas applications because the application service for smdep was through aamc and they verified the underserved area thing.

how does that (the superscript thing, assuming amcas does it. i found the superscript when i tried to print out a copy of my smdep application. it wasnt something you could check off in the application, it sort of appeared on its own right next to my county's name) even play into admissions? im just curious. i doubt it actually has any impact but it would be interesting to see if it does.
 
so im sorry to highjack, but i was wondering what your thoughts were on the first point under disadvantaged. when i applied to smdep, i had a little superscript thing that stated i was from a medically underserved region...i think it is true, but ive definitely found ways to work around that in college so id never consider applying disadvantaged. i was just wondering if the same superscript thing would be on amcas applications because the application service for smdep was through aamc and they verified the underserved area thing.

how does that (the superscript thing, assuming amcas does it. i found the superscript when i tried to print out a copy of my smdep application. it wasnt something you could check off in the application, it sort of appeared on its own right next to my county's name) even play into admissions? im just curious. i doubt it actually has any impact but it would be interesting to see if it does.
When I applied, on my AMCAS application next to my county & state there was a (U) designating that I come from an underserved area, which I found surprising because where my family lives now is a middle class suburb. I didn't apply disadvantaged and it was never discussed with me when I interviewed so I'm not really sure what schools did with it or why it was there to be honest. There is no real drought of doctors or hospitals here so I don't really understand it.
 
When I applied, on my AMCAS application next to my county & state there was a (U) designating that I come from an underserved area, which I found surprising because where my family lives now is a middle class suburb. I didn't apply disadvantaged and it was never discussed with me when I interviewed so I'm not really sure what schools did with it or why it was there to be honest. There is no real drought of doctors or hospitals here so I don't really understand it.
yea, i think AMCAS decides for you if your county is considered underserved or not. which is weird. mine had a U too, but I could imagine how they got that.
 
Just a formalities question:

Do the requirements for the "first in family" differ by medical school or is there a standard definition issued by the AAMC or similar entity?

I'll be the first in the fam to graduate a 4 year university; however, both of my parents attended 1 year of college before dropping out, as did my (biological) brother. He will be graduating from a community college training program the same time as I do though. Also, my step-brother attended school on and off until he graduates with an associate's degree (a few months before I graduate).

It'd be nice to have some legitimacy to the pain it took to figure out the not only medical school application process but college app process too (as well as how to finance them independently). Thanks for the help!
 
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