Flabberghasted yet again

[GeddyLee]

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Congrats to all who matched.

I'm confused though, as similar occurences were noted last year...How do people without AOA and step one in the 210's match when people with AOA/240's go unmatched?

I can only assume that there is a major flaw in the system, or something other than grades and performance count. Certainly there can't be enough personality difference in two candidates with such a discrepancy in performance to overcome that gap?

For those of you with stellar board scores and excellent clinical grades, I feel truly dumbfounded for you. For all who matched, congratulations on a job well done!

 

[Mirror Form]

There is definitely a lot of luck in the system. Some people may be very nice and personable, but just not do well making a good impression during interviews (i.e., telling the interviewers what they want to hear). Although, I think a lot of the people who are AOA with high board scores tend not to go to interviews at the less desirable programs. Some of them go to 10 interviews at the top 10 programs and think they're good to go. However, these programs interview tons of amazing applicants (who all want to go there) for just a small number of seats, so it's easy for a few great applicants to fall through the cracks. If an applicant w/ AOA and 240's board scores didn't match after including approx four tier III programs in their interview schedule, then I'd be a lot more surprised.

 

[Perzian]

There is definitely a lot of luck in the system. Some people may be very nice and personable, but just not do well making a good impression during interviews (i.e., telling the interviewers what they want to hear). Although, I think a lot of the people who are AOA with high board scores tend not to go to interviews at the less desirable programs. Some of them go to 10 interviews at the top 10 programs and think they're good to go. However, these programs interview tons of amazing applicants (who all want to go there) for just a small number of seats, so it's easy for a few great applicants to fall through the cracks. If an applicant w/ AOA and 240's board scores didn't match after including approx four tier III programs in their interview schedule, then I'd be a lot more surprised.

How do you know what are tier I/II/III programs?

 

[doc05]

although with that approach, realize that lower-tier programs may think an aoa/240 applicant isn't interested. so they fall through the cracks. happens in gu and ent too.

 

[Andrew_Doan]

The interview is a big deal.

There are many applicants who drop off our radar screen based on their poor performance during the interview.

For instance, if you put down rock collecting as your major hobby, then you should be able to discuss in detail the differences between pumice and obsidian.

Why do we get picky? Because applicants may be listing things on their applications for the sake of listing them; however, they may have little interest or involvement with what they list. Thus, by inquiring about obscure things on the application, selection committees can divided the genuine from the ones who are stretching the truth.

A common mistake is to put down research and not be able to discuss it. I don't know of anyone who has done research and really worked at it, who doesn't know their research front wards and backwards. I can still recall all my research papers from undergrad if asked about it. However, some applicants cannot even remember the details about research done over the summer.

As I receive many emails from applicants about whether they should do research or volunteer, my recommendation is to follow their heart and do what interests them. If they're not interested and only going through the motions, then they will not devote the time to learn about the project or do significant work.

All this can be investigated during a 30 minute interview, and numbers/grades can't save you if you're caught clueless.

 

[JennyW]

The interview is a big deal.

There are many applicants who drop off our radar screen based on their poor performance during the interview.

For instance, if you put down rock collecting as your major hobby, then you should be able to discuss in detail the differences between pumice and obsidian.

Why do we get picky? Because applicants may be listing things on their applications for the sake of listing them; however, they may have little interest or involvement with what they list. Thus, by inquiring about obscure things on the application, selection committees can divided the genuine from the ones who are stretching the truth.

A common mistake is to put down research and not be able to discuss it. I don't know of anyone who has done research and really worked at it, who doesn't know their research front wards and backwards. I can still recall all my research papers from undergrad if asked about it. However, some applicants cannot even remember the details about research done over the summer.

As I receive many emails from applicants about whether they should do research or volunteer, my recommendation is to follow their heart and do what interests them. If they're not interested and only going through the motions, then they will not devote the time to learn about the project or do significant work.

All this can be investigated during a 30 minute interview, and numbers/grades can't save you if you're caught clueless.

Though I am just a lowly optometrist, I did sit on the admissions committee of an east coast optometry school for a few years.

I can obviously not speak to the differences or similarities between these two situations, but having been involved in admissions, I can attest that some luck is involved as well. It's not just as simple as ranking 50 peoples scores, then taking the top 5.

For example, I recall that at one time there was a woman who applied who had a good, but not outstanding application. However, she had mentioned in her application that she had been in girl scouts all through high school and had attained her Gold Award, which is the girl scouts equivalent of Eagle Scout. One of the women on the admissions committe had also obtained her gold award several years earlier and was familiar with the work load involved in doing this. She fought hard for this applicant, and she was admitted.

During the same year, we were down to the final two applications between two very similar candidaites. No one could decide who to make the admissions offer to. Flipping a coin was actually discussed for about 2 minutes. Suddenly, the Dean leaned forward and picked up one of the applications and said "Wait a minute! Where is this guy from?" Turns out the applicant was from a small town in south eastern Nebraska and the Dean grew up in the next town over.

Guess which one was admitted?

Jenny

 

[vanelo]

All this can be investigated during a 30 minute interview, and numbers/grades can't save you if you're caught clueless.

That is the "truest" statement ever. No way to argue with that.

 

[Andrew_Doan]

having been involved in admissions, I can attest that some luck is involved as well. It's not just as simple as ranking 50 peoples scores, then taking the top 5.

This is true too. The people we ranked from 1 to 30 are all very strong applicants.

 

[Toadkiller Dog]

So Geddy Lee--did you match? I thought you were reapplying this year.

 

[ny skindoc]

There is definitely a lot of luck in the system. Some people may be very nice and personable, but just not do well making a good impression during interviews (i.e., telling the interviewers what they want to hear). Although, I think a lot of the people who are AOA with high board scores tend not to go to interviews at the less desirable programs. Some of them go to 10 interviews at the top 10 programs and think they're good to go. However, these programs interview tons of amazing applicants (who all want to go there) for just a small number of seats, so it's easy for a few great applicants to fall through the cracks. If an applicant w/ AOA and 240's board scores didn't match after including approx four tier III programs in their interview schedule, then I'd be a lot more surprised.

Yes people with top credentials can be at risk when limiting their choices,while candidates with more average applications know their weakness and make up for it by applying to a much broader range of community and "no name" places.
Personality differences can indeed make up for much.Most program directors have enough experience to realize that the actual performance as a resident does not differ all that much between indivduals with higher and lower USMLE scores.Knowing you will be working closely with an individual for three years make getting a compatible individual very important

 

[GeddyLee]

So Geddy Lee--did you match? I thought you were reapplying this year.

Toadkiller Dog,
I didn't re-apply. I was of the opinion that re-applicants have a lower match rate, and that I wouldn't be able to improve upon my application. Ce la vie. I'm happy with the choice I've made, it suits me and my family much better than another OPH match debacle. I think it's tough to go through all that a second time.

 

[wright]

I think the take home message here is that many schools rely on interviews once applicants make it past the initial screening...and yes, people who are not AOA and without 240s get interviews. I have gotten to know a ton of doctors over the years and what they understand more clearly than anything is that---great board scores and good grades DO NOT correlate with how good of a doctor you are going to be. In real life, there is more to a patient than a multiple choice answer and the people making these decisions know this. The reason these people, in some instances, get these great residency spots as opposed to the great board scores and AOA individuals is similar to what has been emphasized earlier--something sparkled on their application....be it a great letter, research, externship, basket-weaving, whatever...and when they went to the interview, they did not kick back in their chairs and act as if they were entitled to get into their program. They walked into each interview and sold themselves to the program. It means a lot when an applicant comes in a room and tells you their going to bust their ass if they get into your program. You have to look at it as if you own a business, are you going to hire the guy from Harvard who has great grades but continually acts uninterested....or are you going to hire the kid who comes in there from the University of Tennessee (ex🙂 who says he's going to bust his butt and will be the first one to work, the last one to leave, and would make the chair proud. That's is how these guys get in. You have to want it and by expressing that in your interview....that speaks volumes over any board score or AOA or anything. You get to see a glimpse of the person and NOT the paper...and I think that is the take home message.

Congrats to all who matched.

I'm confused though, as similar occurences were noted last year...How do people without AOA and step one in the 210's match when people with AOA/240's go unmatched?

I can only assume that there is a major flaw in the system, or something other than grades and performance count. Certainly there can't be enough personality difference in two candidates with such a discrepancy in performance to overcome that gap?

For those of you with stellar board scores and excellent clinical grades, I feel truly dumbfounded for you. For all who matched, congratulations on a job well done!

 

[TheDudeabides]

Come on wright...I think we all know how you got that badass ophtho spot. Just like you said, everything aint on paper, sometimes you just have to let them know how much you want to be there... [edited by Andrew_Doan]

I think the take home message here is that many schools rely on interviews once applicants make it past the initial screening...and yes, people who are not AOA and without 240s get interviews. I have gotten to know a ton of doctors over the years and what they understand more clearly than anything is that---great board scores and good grades DO NOT correlate with how good of a doctor you are going to be. In real life, there is more to a patient than a multiple choice answer and the people making these decisions know this. The reason these people, in some instances, get these great residency spots as opposed to the great board scores and AOA individuals is similar to what has been emphasized earlier--something sparkled on their application....be it a great letter, research, externship, basket-weaving, whatever...and when they went to the interview, they did not kick back in their chairs and act as if they were entitled to get into their program. They walked into each interview and sold themselves to the program. It means a lot when an applicant comes in a room and tells you their going to bust their ass if they get into your program. You have to look at it as if you own a business, are you going to hire the guy from Harvard who has great grades but continually acts uninterested....or are you going to hire the kid who comes in there from the University of Tennessee (ex🙂 who says he's going to bust his butt and will be the first one to work, the last one to leave, and would make the chair proud. That's is how these guys get in. You have to want it and by expressing that in your interview....that speaks volumes over any board score or AOA or anything. You get to see a glimpse of the person and NOT the paper...and I think that is the take home message.

 

[ttt0079]

I think it is also vitally important that one be themselves during the interview, putting aside all the strategizing and just beam through with their genuine interest. If I were on the selection committee, the last thing I want to hear is an applicant telling me some generic answer that they think I would want to hear. What if there is no genuine interest? Well, then perhaps one should re-examine their career choice. Just my $0.02.

 

[Pike]

A common mistake is to put down research and not be able to discuss it. I don't know of anyone who has done research and really worked at it, who doesn't know their research front wards and backwards. I can still recall all my research papers from undergrad if asked about it. However, some applicants cannot even remember the details about research done over the summer.

Dr. Doan (or others) what would you suggest for a potential applicant that has been involved in a summer research experience of short duration that due to a number of factors really didn't amount to much? I was involved in getting the project started - literature searching and protocol writing. Fast forward --- a resident took over the project and it may be published. My name likely would be on the paper due to my initial work. Of course several details have changed since I left the project, and even if I can learn as much about the project as possible I am not likely to know it "front wards and backwards," and I would really just be describing the work and decisions that others have made. I could leave it out altogether, but it seems that I still might be confronted with how I used this chunk of time. Also, if the paper is published it would seem hard not to mention it. Any thoughts would be helpful.

 

[Andrew_Doan]

Dr. Doan (or others) what would you suggest for a potential applicant that has been involved in a summer research experience of short duration that due to a number of factors really didn't amount to much? I was involved in getting the project started - literature searching and protocol writing. Fast forward --- a resident took over the project and it may be published. My name likely would be on the paper due to my initial work. Of course several details have changed since I left the project, and even if I can learn as much about the project as possible I am not likely to know it "front wards and backwards," and I would really just be describing the work and decisions that others have made. I could leave it out altogether, but it seems that I still might be confronted with how I used this chunk of time. Also, if the paper is published it would seem hard not to mention it. Any thoughts would be helpful.

I suggest then being honest about it. State exactly what you did above. 👍

People don't want to grill you. We just want to see who's being honest.