FMG now or D.O later (may be) for Neuro some day?

[billydoc]

Hi Guys!
Great forum, and lots of interesting info. The question is in the title,but a quick glance of my background first. I've been an RN x 15 years, with lots of clinical and administrative exp, I'm also a licensed acupuncturist in private practice for the last four yrs.Two years ago I was accepted to ROSS Univ in the Carib. Went down there by myself (without my family). I admit, I was grossly unprepared (out of school for over 15 yrs) + the Island is a hellhole. It was obvious that the best way would be to withdraw from school, or get some "F"s on my transcript. So I did get out. Went back to "regular" life, but I'm not happy. The thought of not achieving, a "broken promise" if you will, is haunting me. O'K...enough drama. My question is : how realistic is it to get neuro (or PMR) as an FMG? Another possible option for me would be to go D.O, which I really like. I think my bacground in healthcare is quite solid, but I'd need more or less acceptable MCAT score (never took MCAT). So what do you think guys? Is it worth a trouble to try go D.O (in Fall'07 the best case scenario), or go to St. Matthews in May'06. It's on Grand Cayman, so no comparison to Dominica (ROSS), and I only have to be there for one year (3 semesters) before comming back to the States.
TIA
Your responses are greatly appreciated

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[vtrain]

Your chances of getting into those two specialities are improved if you go to a DO school. That being said, you can still land those specialties if you come from the caribbean. Have you thought of going to St. George's? Every year they always have a few matched from either neuro or PMR and the island is better to live on the Dominica. St. Matthew's is a good school but they are still young and I don't know if you can get licensed in Cali, so that may be an issue. My advice is to take the MCAT. If you do well ie above 26, shoot for a DO school. If not, try St. George's, then St. Matthews. AUC is another option too - St. Maarten is an amazing island.

 

[(nicedream)]

Hi Guys!
Great forum, and lots of interesting info. The question is in the title,but a quick glance of my background first. I've been an RN x 15 years, with lots of clinical and administrative exp, I'm also a licensed acupuncturist in private practice for the last four yrs.Two years ago I was accepted to ROSS Univ in the Carib. Went down there by myself (without my family). I admit, I was grossly unprepared (out of school for over 15 yrs) + the Island is a hellhole. It was obvious that the best way would be to withdraw from school, or get some "F"s on my transcript. So I did get out. Went back to "regular" life, but I'm not happy. The thought of not achieving, a "broken promise" if you will, is haunting me. O'K...enough drama. My question is : how realistic is it to get neuro (or PMR) as an FMG? Another possible option for me would be to go D.O, which I really like. I think my bacground in healthcare is quite solid, but I'd need more or less acceptable MCAT score (never took MCAT). So what do you think guys? Is it worth a trouble to try go D.O (in Fall'07 the best case scenario), or go to St. Matthews in May'06. It's on Grand Cayman, so no comparison to Dominica (ROSS), and I only have to be there for one year (3 semesters) before comming back to the States.
TIA
Your responses are greatly appreciated

DO graduates routinely get into the top PMR programs - it is undoubtedly the specialty in which DOs have the most ACGME matching success. They do quite well in neuro as well.
I would recommend taking the MCAT and applying to DO school. I would go ahead and apply to many schools, particularly the new ones, if your score is anything above a 20 (there are even students accepted with less than a 20). DO schools are really attracted to nontraditional applicants who may be older with lots of real-world experience, healthcare or otherwise - they often favor this over high numbers.

 

[Sebastian.]

Eh, what's PMR?

 

[Shinken]

Eh, what's PMR?

Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation.

billydoc, for St. Matthews, how come you only spend three semesters there? Where do you do the second year at?

 

[f_w]

PMR = Plenty of Money and Relaxation = rehabilitation medicine

 

[Poety]

How come you're only considering FMG or DO? DId you apply to MD as well? Why not try MD, DO and carribean as a last resort. Good luck with whatever you choose!

 

[Solideliquid]

Hi Guys!
Great forum, and lots of interesting info. The question is in the title,but a quick glance of my background first. I've been an RN x 15 years, with lots of clinical and administrative exp, I'm also a licensed acupuncturist in private practice for the last four yrs.Two years ago I was accepted to ROSS Univ in the Carib. Went down there by myself (without my family). I admit, I was grossly unprepared (out of school for over 15 yrs) + the Island is a hellhole. It was obvious that the best way would be to withdraw from school, or get some "F"s on my transcript. So I did get out. Went back to "regular" life, but I'm not happy. The thought of not achieving, a "broken promise" if you will, is haunting me. O'K...enough drama. My question is : how realistic is it to get neuro (or PMR) as an FMG? Another possible option for me would be to go D.O, which I really like. I think my bacground in healthcare is quite solid, but I'd need more or less acceptable MCAT score (never took MCAT). So what do you think guys? Is it worth a trouble to try go D.O (in Fall'07 the best case scenario), or go to St. Matthews in May'06. It's on Grand Cayman, so no comparison to Dominica (ROSS), and I only have to be there for one year (3 semesters) before comming back to the States.
TIA
Your responses are greatly appreciated

BillyDoc-

I am a graduate of St. Matthews, PM me for any and all questions/concerns.

 

[Solideliquid]

Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation.

billydoc, for St. Matthews, how come you only spend three semesters there? Where do you do the second year at?

Second year can be spent at St. Josephs College of Maine. It is a college about 15 miles from Portland, Maine. In order to go to Maine for second year you need to enroll in a masters program which St. Matthews offers. It is a MHSA masters degree you get along with the MD.

I in fact spent my second year in Maine and the education there is better, plus I hate the island life (even though Caymans is a dream) so I was anxious to get back to the states.

 

[billydoc]

Thank You guys!
Great responses. Basically my question is not D.O vs Carib, or D.O vs MD in a general sense. I just wanted to know if any you had been able to match in Neuro and/or PMR from the Carib med schools, and more specifically SMU. Soldeliquid thanks, I'll pm you. I know that 35 is not too old, but spending another year and half trying to get in,may be??? Also I'd have to greately reduce my earnings by cutting down on work to study for the MCAT. I've been accepted to ROSS, SABA and St. Matthews back in 2004. Did 2 semesters at ROSS. The island itself is a problem for managing my diabetes.SABA is pretty much out for the same reasons. Believe me I've reserched my Carib options ad nauseum
Ideally I'd like to stay in NY or Tri-State area, thus I was asking about D.O.
I don't think US allo schools will care about my 15 yrs work exp in healthcare unlike D.O. Although it could be my own misconception,but generally I also need higher MCAT. But if Neuro or PMR are possibilities from Carib too I'd rather go now than later.
Thanks all again very much

 

[Miklos]

Your chances of getting into those two specialities are improved if you go to a DO school.

In the case PM&R, agreed (DOs appear to be outcompeting IMGs, probably in part due to their education.) In the case of Neuro, disagree.

Here are the statistics broken down by type of degree for the yearly JAMA issue (September 7, 2005) on Medical Education for the number of residents on duty in ACGME programs as of August 1, 2004 in those specialties.

PM&R: 664 USMDs / 262 IMGs / 190 DOs / 3 Canadians
Neuro: 769 USMDs / 504 IMGs / 90 DOs / 2 Canadians

In Neuro, IMGs are able to maintain their roughly 5:1 ratio over DOs in proportion to their total numbers in ACGME programs (IMG: 26,720 ; DOs 5,675).

 

[rugtrousers]

I don't think US allo schools will care about my 15 yrs work exp in healthcare unlike D.O. Although it could be my own misconception,but generally I also need higher MCAT.

You shouldn't assume that - there are MD schools that love non-traditional applicants, even those with a well-established other career. My med school class started with ~5/100 people in their 30s, and one in their 40s. You should do good background work first, though, so you're not applying with a shotgun approach. As for the MCAT, it's good to take for consideration at MD and DO schools, of course, but it will also give you a sense of how you do on standardized tests. You will have to take many standardized tests to get through med school (USMLE Steps 1, 2CK, 2CS, 3 or COMLEX equivalent), and more to get licensed and boarded, so think about starting now.

 

[Finally M3]

If you want to go into PM&R, you would have a much better shot as a DO.

Last year's match was really difficult for FMGs, from what I hear. And through the grapevine, it's getting more difficult this year.

 

[tiene dolor?]

Eh, what's PMR?

Believe it stands for "Plenty of Money & Relaxation"

 

[Finally M3]

Hey now, we work hard during our inpatient months. Really. 12 hour days are standard here.

Outpatient and consult months, tho....

 

[skypilot]

In the case PM&R, agreed (DOs appear to be outcompeting IMGs, probably in part due to their education.) In the case of Neuro, disagree.

Here are the statistics broken down by type of degree for the yearly JAMA issue (September 7, 2005) on Medical Education for the number of residents on duty in ACGME programs as of August 1, 2004 in those specialties.

PM&R: 664 USMDs / 262 IMGs / 190 DOs / 3 Canadians
Neuro: 769 USMDs / 504 IMGs / 90 DOs / 2 Canadians

In Neuro, IMGs are able to maintain their roughly 5:1 ratio over DOs in proportion to their total numbers in ACGME programs (IMG: 26,720 ; DOs 5,675).

Could it be that DOs are not choosing to apply for Neuro instead of not having the opportunity to match into Neuro?

 

[Taus]

Could it be that DOs are not choosing to apply for Neuro instead of not having the opportunity to match into Neuro?

You can also look at those #'s from the perspective (and facts) that DO's only make up around 5% of the US Physician population. So, if you are only seeing around 5% of DO's in a particular specialty, you are seeing them in even #'s percentage-wise w/ MD's.

That being said, those 90 DO's in the ACGME Neuro residencies make up around 6.5%, which is actually an slight OVER-REPRESENTATION of DO's in that specialty, given that we are only 5 of the total physicians.

Basically, any time that you see greater then 5% DO's in a given specialty, that means they are doing very well matching into them

Let me know if theres any flaws to my logic here....


ps....You also have to take note that there are also many DO's (don't have numbers off hand) that go into Neuro through the AOA's DO-only residencies...so the total number of DO Neurologists is likely to be even greater then the 6.5% of the total Neurologists trained in ACGME residencies.

 

[(nicedream)]

You can also look at those #'s from the perspective (and facts) that DO's only make up around 5% of the US Physician population. So, if you are only seeing around 5% of DO's in a particular specialty, you are seeing them in even #'s percentage-wise w/ MD's.

That being said, those 90 DO's in the ACGME Neuro residencies make up around 6.5%, which is actually an slight OVER-REPRESENTATION of DO's in that specialty, given that we are only 5 of the total physicians.

Basically, any time that you see greater then 5% DO's in a given specialty, that means they are doing very well matching into them

Let me know if theres any flaws to my logic here....


ps....You also have to take note that there are also many DO's (don't have numbers off hand) that go into Neuro through the AOA's DO-only residencies...so the total number of DO Neurologists is likely to be even greater then the 6.5% of the total Neurologists trained in ACGME residencies.

The flaw is that while osteopathic physicians make up about 5% of practicing physicians right now, graduating osteopathic students make up a much larger percentage of total graduating medical students (more DO schools opening in the past 30 years - a safe timeline to use for physicians being in practice). I don't know the exact #s offhand, but if we assume the avg class size is equal, and there's 125 MD schools and 20 DO schools (the newer 3 haven't graduated students yet), that means of students entering residency, DOs make up 14%.

 

[Taus]

I agree w/ you ( I was not aware of that)...however, by that logic, you must also take into account IMG/FMG's to calculate the percentage of people applying to residency that year through the match. Probably can be found on the nrmp's website....don't feel like looking right now...

 

[Miklos]

You can also look at those #'s from the perspective (and facts) that DO's only make up around 5% of the US Physician population. So, if you are only seeing around 5% of DO's in a particular specialty, you are seeing them in even #'s percentage-wise w/ MD's.

That being said, those 90 DO's in the ACGME Neuro residencies make up around 6.5%, which is actually an slight OVER-REPRESENTATION of DO's in that specialty, given that we are only 5 of the total physicians.

Basically, any time that you see greater then 5% DO's in a given specialty, that means they are doing very well matching into them

Let me know if theres any flaws to my logic here....

1) The percentage of DOs in ACGME residencies is not 5%. It is 5.6% (5,675 out of 101,291.)
2) The difference between 6.6% and 5.6% is unlikely to be statistically significant.
3) IMGs comprise 26.4% of the ACGME total pool and 38.8% of Neuro residents. This, by contrast is in all likelyhood statistically significant.

Data source: As above, the JAMA tables.

ps....You also have to take note that there are also many DO's (don't have numbers off hand) that go into Neuro through the AOA's DO-only residencies...so the total number of DO Neurologists is likely to be even greater then the 6.5% of the total Neurologists trained in ACGME residencies.

I found a total of 3 neurology programs on the AOA Intern/Resident Registration Program. I'm not a DO, so if someone knows otherwise, feel free to correct me, but that's not "many".

Here are their five digit code numbers:

43154 - CMB:T/NEUROLOGY
62954 - CMB:T/NEUROLOGY
72754 - CMB:T/NEUROLOGY

 

[ccthedoc]

Two years ago I was accepted to ROSS Univ in the Carib. Went down there by myself (without my family). I admit, I was grossly unprepared (out of school for over 15 yrs) + the Island is a hellhole. Your responses are greatly appreciated

Hi,
If you are considering caribbean med schools, I would definitely recommend St. George's University School of Medicine. The campus is absolutely beautiful and state of the art. It's been a few years since I have been there and I know they have done even more construction since then. The living conditions are wonderful and the teaching is second to none. Plus, you can do all of your clinical rotation for third and fourth year in the states, or some in England if you'd like. I chose to do a combination.

Attending SGU was probably the most amazing part of my life to date. I got in to the program of my choice after graduation, too. My "little buddy" (mentor program in Grenada) matched in to Neuro at her first choice program in Texas, so I know that it is definitely a possibility.

Plus, SGU is very friendly to applicants with life experience in health care. There are a lot of students who were nurses, PTs, chiropractors, EMTs, etc. prior to attending SGU. Many married students bring their spouses and kids to live on the island with them. There is a very strong, active SO (significant other) organization there and many US kids enrolled in the American/British elementary school.

I would recommend SGU to any one who is considering medical school outside of the US. SGU provided me with the resources to obtain a world class medical education in a beautiful setting with gorgeous weather year round and the chance to travel and see a bit of the great big world out there. In addition, I had the chance to experience medicine both in a third world environment and in the UK, which I feel complements my residency experiences in the US. As a second year resident, I can fully appreciate how well SGU prepared me for residency in the US and how rich my time in med school truly was because of the school I chose. I wouldn't trade any of it for the world!

Best of Luck!
CC

 

[(nicedream)]

Hi,
If you are considering caribbean med schools, I would definitely recommend St. George's University School of Medicine. The campus is absolutely beautiful and state of the art. It's been a few years since I have been there and I know they have done even more construction since then. The living conditions are wonderful and the teaching is second to none. Plus, you can do all of your clinical rotation for third and fourth year in the states, or some in England if you'd like. I chose to do a combination.

Attending SGU was probably the most amazing part of my life to date. I got in to the program of my choice after graduation, too. My "little buddy" (mentor program in Grenada) matched in to Neuro at her first choice program in Texas, so I know that it is definitely a possibility.

Plus, SGU is very friendly to applicants with life experience in health care. There are a lot of students who were nurses, PTs, chiropractors, EMTs, etc. prior to attending SGU. Many married students bring their spouses and kids to live on the island with them. There is a very strong, active SO (significant other) organization there and many US kids enrolled in the American/British elementary school.

I would recommend SGU to any one who is considering medical school outside of the US. SGU provided me with the resources to obtain a world class medical education in a beautiful setting with gorgeous weather year round and the chance to travel and see a bit of the great big world out there. In addition, I had the chance to experience medicine both in a third world environment and in the UK, which I feel complements my residency experiences in the US. As a second year resident, I can fully appreciate how well SGU prepared me for residency in the US and how rich my time in med school truly was because of the school I chose. I wouldn't trade any of it for the world!

Best of Luck!
CC

If you have any questions, email CC at [email protected]

 

[AznTrojan]

go DO..

apparently neurology is getting more competitive... the program i'm at (university of miami) didn't even interview any FMGs since they had so many applicants..