FMGs without a spot

[a winner is you]

You are completely missing the point. There should be zero preference for graduates of American Medical Schools over graduates of International Medical Schools. The preference should be for US Citizens over non US Citizens. Virtually all GME in the US is paid for by Medicare taxes. All positions paid for by Medicare should be restricted to US Citizens only unless the program can certify that they tried to fill the position with a US citizen and could not.

If a US citizen wants to go to med school in the US or Caribbean or France or Russia or wherever it should have no effect on his/her ability to get into a residency program.

It makes zero sense to have US citizen doctors unable to get into a residency program while thousands of foreigners take the positions and then return to their own country after the finish their residency.

All US Citizens should be guaranteed a residency position and then foreign citizens should compete for any remaining positions.

If a program wants to independently fund residency positions using hospital, not Medicare, money they should be able to pick whomever they want. However, so long as the US taxpayer is paying for the training the position should be restricted to US Citizens.

Wow, I don't even know what to say about this. I am not a US citizen, but I have lived in the US for 19 years and have no intention of leaving. I choose not to become a citizen for personal reasons that I will not go into on an internet forum. So because of that, you think an IMG should have priority over me just because they are a citizen, despite the fact that I will graduate from a top US medical school?

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[turquoiseblue]

all in all i think the underdawgs like carrib MD's or US DO's just want equality with AMG's because they are getting accepted in the same spots. in the end once you finish residency you become equal anyways regardless of the prejudice you initially expreinced for being what you initially were.....They get essentially the same education as an AMG and none should be looked down upon. I have nothing against non-US citizen FMG's, but I think one thing that shouldn't be so equal is US citizenship. If you're a citizen and live here it you should get preference over someone who does not live here. but i dont see that preference existing. isn't it a little scary to see that people on a visa come here so easily, get matched so easily, leave the country so easily? bypassing someone that was a US citizen and lives here, as opposed to them where they can easily practice in their own country, whereas a US citizen doesn't have that kind of choice, they're stuck without a job in the end. that is what is going on in residency programs right now. there is hardly any US citizenship preference anymore like there used to be. it looks like it is dwindling. they just want 99ers to fill their quotas, regardless of citizenship to make them look good in numbers, they don't care anything about being fair to US citizens because of that. since when did a USMLE score become a person. that is the kind of society that is occuring right now. we are just numbers, not people. someone with empathy and good people skills or possibly interest in medicine is left in the dark over a 99er who may not have those qualities. i met a guy who scored in his 90s making medicine into one big joke. he had an awful bedside manner, but everyone wanted him for his scores. scores shoudln't make a person who they are. and usmle 's are taken only once, with no chance to improve. what happens to those that aren't good test takers but still know what they're doing and study hard? they get thrown away all because of some number. what if they were sick while taking the test, that isn['t considered, what if they couldn't sleep (which happened to me)..what if they were having family problems at the time..concentration problem during the test but study hard and know their stuff.etc....scores shoudln't make a person and this society is making that occur. i think something should be done about it. im not just taking about myself im talking about other people that are US citizens that had numerous interviews and still didn't get in.

 

[mama]

all in all i think the underdawgs like carrib MD's or US DO's just want equality with AMG's because they are getting accepted in the same spots. in the end once you finish residency you become equal anyways regardless of the prejudice you initially expreinced for being what you initially were.....They get essentially the same education as an AMG and none should be looked down upon. I have nothing against non-US citizen FMG's, but I think one thing that shouldn't be so equal is US citizenship. If you're a citizen and live here it you should get preference over someone who does not live here. but i dont see that preference existing. isn't it a little scary to see that people on a visa come here so easily, get matched so easily, leave the country so easily? bypassing someone that was a US citizen and lives here, as opposed to them where they can easily practice in their own country, whereas a US citizen doesn't have that kind of choice, they're stuck without a job in the end. that is what is going on in residency programs right now. there is hardly any US citizenship preference anymore like there used to be. it looks like it is dwindling. they just want 99ers to fill their quotas, regardless of citizenship to make them look good in numbers, they don't care anything about being fair to US citizens because of that. since when did a USMLE score become a person. that is the kind of society that is occuring right now. we are just numbers, not people. someone with empathy and good people skills or possibly interest in medicine is left in the dark over a 99er who may not have those qualities. i met a guy who scored in his 90s making medicine into one big joke. he had an awful bedside manner, but everyone wanted him for his scores. scores shoudln't make a person who they are. and usmle 's are taken only once, with no chance to improve. what happens to those that aren't good test takers but still know what they're doing and study hard? they get thrown away all because of some number. what if they were sick while taking the test, that isn['t considered, what if they couldn't sleep (which happened to me)..what if they were having family problems at the time..concentration problem during the test but study hard and know their stuff.etc....scores shoudln't make a person and this society is making that occur. i think something should be done about it. im not just taking about myself im talking about other people that are US citizens that had numerous interviews and still didn't get in.

You got some serious issues buddy, you should get medical help ASAP. US citizenship does NOT entitle you to a residency or a spot in a US medical school.

It is not difficult to get US citizenship, especially when you marry a US citizen and come over to the US!! Judging by your English, I am almost certain that you gained US citizenship either through marriage or family sponsorship.
Re-posting: I would rather have my mother treated by an IMG who knows what they are doing rather than a US citizen whose only claim to a residency spot is being a US citizen!! BTW, it is easy to become a US citizen, your parents or ancestors were lucky enough to get on the boat or flight to the US, had sex and voila you were born on US soil!!

Even if you were born here, citizenship does NOT entitle you to a residency spot or anything else for that matter except the right to vote. Nothing is free in America buddy and if you are not comfortable with that fact you ought to move back to your country of birth or a socialist country where you would be fed by the government despite your incompetence.


"im not just taking about myself im talking about other people that are US citizens that had numerous interviews and still didn't get in." This means there is something seriously wrong with your application. Besides, you dropped out of TWO residency programs!!! Heck, I would have serious doubts about hiring you if I was a PD.

Stop blaming others for YOUR incompetence.

 

[Law2Doc]

...what if they were sick while taking the test, that isn['t considered, what if they couldn't sleep (which happened to me)..what if they were having family problems at the time..concentration problem during the test but study hard and know their stuff.etc....scores shoudln't make a person and this society is making that occur. i think something should be done about it....

The problem with your "what if" argument, is that all these things could happen to undermine a patient's care if they could happen to undermine your testing ability. Doctors are under a lot of pressure not just at work, but in the rest of their life. They get sick, have family problems, have trouble concentrating, etc. During residency they are going to be sleep deprived, beaten down, homesick, etc. But they really aren't allowed to let it affect them. They can't have a bad day and shrug their shoulders as patient's don't get the best possible care. It's an unforgiving career -- unlike weathermen they are expected to be on their top game every time they come to work. So some snapshot of how they do under stress like a testing situation is not as unreasonable as you suggest. It certainly doesn't mean the USMLE is a perfect criteria on which to base whether someone will be a good clinician, but I think the "what if" the person had other distractions in their life argument is a flawed one. There will always be distractions. Distractions on the USMLE at worst can siderail your career, but distractions during practice can have mortality associated with it. Doctors are expected to weather these things better than you suggest.

 

[a winner is you]

all in all i think the underdawgs like carrib MD's or US DO's just want equality with AMG's because they are getting accepted in the same spots. in the end once you finish residency you become equal anyways regardless of the prejudice you initially expreinced for being what you initially were.....They get essentially the same education as an AMG and none should be looked down upon. I have nothing against non-US citizen FMG's, but I think one thing that shouldn't be so equal is US citizenship. If you're a citizen and live here it you should get preference over someone who does not live here. but i dont see that preference existing. isn't it a little scary to see that people on a visa come here so easily, get matched so easily, leave the country so easily? bypassing someone that was a US citizen and lives here, as opposed to them where they can easily practice in their own country, whereas a US citizen doesn't have that kind of choice, they're stuck without a job in the end. that is what is going on in residency programs right now. there is hardly any US citizenship preference anymore like there used to be. it looks like it is dwindling. they just want 99ers to fill their quotas, regardless of citizenship to make them look good in numbers, they don't care anything about being fair to US citizens because of that. since when did a USMLE score become a person. that is the kind of society that is occuring right now. we are just numbers, not people. someone with empathy and good people skills or possibly interest in medicine is left in the dark over a 99er who may not have those qualities. i met a guy who scored in his 90s making medicine into one big joke. he had an awful bedside manner, but everyone wanted him for his scores. scores shoudln't make a person who they are. and usmle 's are taken only once, with no chance to improve. what happens to those that aren't good test takers but still know what they're doing and study hard? they get thrown away all because of some number. what if they were sick while taking the test, that isn['t considered, what if they couldn't sleep (which happened to me)..what if they were having family problems at the time..concentration problem during the test but study hard and know their stuff.etc....scores shoudln't make a person and this society is making that occur. i think something should be done about it. im not just taking about myself im talking about other people that are US citizens that had numerous interviews and still didn't get in.

The step 2 CS is obviously not doing a good enough job in screening for English proficiency.

 

[Nickelpennykid]

This is insane and I say this as a DO student who just matched. US MD residencies should look to take graduates of US MD schools first...those residencies are theirs. If you choose to go to a DO school you choose to go for one of two reason...you either wanted to your couldn't get into an MD school. Carib school is similar, you either weren't from this country and couldn't get into the US or you were rejected by US schools. Either way, by choosing to go to either of these types of schools you know before you start it's an uphill battle for US MD residences. And the Carib education is not essentially the same...they produce some great physicians but you are kidding yourself if you think its the same thing.

As I said I'm a DO, I choose to do the allopathic match and wound up matching where I wanted to be. We have DO residences that we can use, but until we allow US MD students to apply to our programs it's impossible to fault allopathic residences for taking their own first.

Not all programs want 99's to fill their spots. I would imagine most want stable human beings who are capable of completing residency and will function as competent physicians. Some allo programs close their doors to DO's and foreign grads based on the school they went to, not their citizenship. You knew this from the start and if you didn't know, then that's your problem.

all in all i think the underdawgs like carrib MD's or US DO's just want equality with AMG's because they are getting accepted in the same spots. in the end once you finish residency you become equal anyways regardless of the prejudice you initially expreinced for being what you initially were.....They get essentially the same education as an AMG and none should be looked down upon. I have nothing against non-US citizen FMG's, but I think one thing that shouldn't be so equal is US citizenship. If you're a citizen and live here it you should get preference over someone who does not live here. but i dont see that preference existing. isn't it a little scary to see that people on a visa come here so easily, get matched so easily, leave the country so easily? bypassing someone that was a US citizen and lives here, as opposed to them where they can easily practice in their own country, whereas a US citizen doesn't have that kind of choice, they're stuck without a job in the end. that is what is going on in residency programs right now. there is hardly any US citizenship preference anymore like there used to be. it looks like it is dwindling. they just want 99ers to fill their quotas, regardless of citizenship to make them look good in numbers, they don't care anything about being fair to US citizens because of that. since when did a USMLE score become a person. that is the kind of society that is occuring right now. we are just numbers, not people. someone with empathy and good people skills or possibly interest in medicine is left in the dark over a 99er who may not have those qualities. i met a guy who scored in his 90s making medicine into one big joke. he had an awful bedside manner, but everyone wanted him for his scores. scores shoudln't make a person who they are. and usmle 's are taken only once, with no chance to improve. what happens to those that aren't good test takers but still know what they're doing and study hard? they get thrown away all because of some number. what if they were sick while taking the test, that isn['t considered, what if they couldn't sleep (which happened to me)..what if they were having family problems at the time..concentration problem during the test but study hard and know their stuff.etc....scores shoudln't make a person and this society is making that occur. i think something should be done about it. im not just taking about myself im talking about other people that are US citizens that had numerous interviews and still didn't get in.

 

[turquoiseblue]

the current reasoning is all a bunch o bull. they just don't want to change. thats all. they fear change. it's all 'what if this what if that' based on one score. What-EVER. not everyone is a test taker, but they may still have the ability to perform well as a doctor.

most of all 'mama' doesnt know. ;D

 

[Nickelpennykid]

Are you implying that you have already performed well as a doctor and your test taking skills should be overlooked, in addition to all the other peripheral issues?

And if that that were in fact true, residency competition in the US is at an all time high, with more going unmatched every year. What motivation do these programs have to overlook anything, when the applicant pool is filled with people without any "red flags?"

the current reasoning is all a bunch o bull. they just don't want to change. thats all. they fear change. it's all 'what if this what if that' based on one score. What-EVER. not everyone is a test taker, but they may still have the ability to perform well as a doctor.

most of all 'mama' doesnt know. ;D

 

[bubbleyum]

i think there is opportunity to still get spots between now and july.
maybe with the work hour limitations, i have heard of a couple of programs still looking for a pgy-1 before july 1st.

 

[a winner is you]

the current reasoning is all a bunch o bull. they just don't want to change. thats all. they fear change. it's all 'what if this what if that' based on one score. What-EVER. not everyone is a test taker, but they may still have the ability to perform well as a doctor.

most of all 'mama' doesnt know. ;D

So instead, you think the better way to gauge whether someone will be a good doctor is if their mother gave birth on US soil? If it were up to you, what would be good criteria then if not scores and grades and letters?

 

[turquoiseblue]

Are you implying that you have already performed well as a doctor and your test taking skills should be overlooked, in addition to all the other peripheral issues?

And if that that were in fact true, residency competition in the US is at an all time high, with more going unmatched every year. What motivation do these programs have to overlook anything, when the applicant pool is filled with people without any "red flags?"

I was told i did a good job in residency when i was in surgery and didn't have problems in the program, with a good work ethic according to the PD himself even on a letter of rec... why can't that count for anything? it doesn't. and this happened after i was in a malignant IM program that i left, so maybe they still look at that and not what i did after that. in that lies the unfairness of it all. a past PD word doesn't even count. and i have really good LOR's for that matter. they still look at my step 1 and 2 scores, not even the step 3 score as if im a fresh grad. i may have some red flags but later on i improved and none of that counts.

 

[turquoiseblue]

So instead, you think the better way to gauge whether someone will be a good doctor is if their mother gave birth on US soil? If it were up to you, what would be good criteria then if not scores and grades and letters?

well tell me why they chose naive doctors over an experienced doctor. then why not chose US citizens over non US citizens. same difference. they used to prefer US citizens, but now they've changed it. ur probably on a visa, right? thats why you want that to go your way. and im sure there are more people on visas than US citizens, because the whole rest of the world wants to get into a US residency.

scores are an ok criteria, but they've taken it a little too far where a person who scored less than 80 can't even find a program, even if it is considered a passing score. if that's the case they should make the passing score 80 so everyone has a fair chance...either that or lower it back to 75 if they won't do that.

LORs and PS should be included in criteria. but numbers shouldn't cut a person off from making it in a program. they should see the person as a whole like they used to. they don't do that anymore and just have score cutoffs, not even considering a person who scored less than their criteria.

i remember a time when the AMA had control over criteria and said all programs have to consider a person if they at least passed the USMLE and that PD's aren't supposed to make cut offs. PD's stopped listening to that rule, so that has all
changed now.

What about the school you graduated from...some of them are considered top AMG schools, top carrib schools, top whatever....that can be considered, but i dont think it is. im not sure on that. i grad from a top carrib school but they don't care. it's just hodge podge mostly about score critera. face it, we are just numbers in this game. nothing else seems to matter.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

I was told i did a good job in residency when i was in surgery and didn't have problems in the program, with a good work ethic according to the PD himself even on a letter of rec... why can't that count for anything? it doesn't. and this happened after i was in a malignant IM program that i left, so maybe they still look at that and not what i did after that. in that lies the unfairness of it all. a past PD word doesn't even count. and i have really good LOR's for that matter. they still look at my step 1 and 2 scores, not even the step 3 score as if im a fresh grad. i may have some red flags but later on i improved and none of that counts.

You "didn't have problems"...and yet for some unfathomable reason they wouldn't let you finish the year...


This has been discussed over and over...anyone who looks through your posting history can see you are whitewashing things and continue to show no accountability for the mistakes that have led you to this point.

You don't have "some" red flags. You have HUGE GLARING red flags.

Yet here we are again...your personal quest continues...

 

[Nickelpennykid]

That may all be true but it doesn't answer the question...what motivation does a PD have to overlook all of this if there are "fresh grads" with no issues. If you can't answer that here, good luck in an interview when they ask you that directly.

Your letters may include plausible explanations for your situation, but lots of people have letters talking about how they are rockstars and can walk on water. Letters from PDs' count a lot, but yours essentially say that you aren't as bad as you appear on paper. They probably don't look at Step 3 because most applicants don't have those scores, so there is no means for comparison.

We don't all get trophies for trying, this isn't little league. I hope you get a residency somewhere if you actually do have the capacity to be a good physician, but the reasons you think you deserve a third shot are insane and unrealistic.

I was told i did a good job in residency when i was in surgery and didn't have problems in the program, with a good work ethic according to the PD himself even on a letter of rec... why can't that count for anything? it doesn't. and this happened after i was in a malignant IM program that i left, so maybe they still look at that and not what i did after that. in that lies the unfairness of it all. a past PD word doesn't even count. and i have really good LOR's for that matter. they still look at my step 1 and 2 scores, not even the step 3 score as if im a fresh grad. i may have some red flags but later on i improved and none of that counts.

 

[Nickelpennykid]

1. They don't always choose new grads, but they don't take older grads with huge issues.
2. It's not the same difference, they choose graduates of US schools regardless of citizenship over non-US grads.
3. You can get a residency with a two digit score if you went to a US school and don't have red flags.
4. Numbers help thin the herd, if you are an otherwise stellar applicant with slightly below avg boards, no programs are off limits. Now if you have multiple red flags and have huge board issues, that a problem.
5. What is a "top carib school?" No one outside of the carib cares, especially not US program directors. I don't kid myself that I go to a prestigious school because it is one of the top DO schools
6. Not just a numbers game, as multiple people on this site will tell you that matched into great programs with not-so-great stats. They had no other red flags.

Are you noticing a trend here?

well tell me why they chose naive doctors over an experienced doctor. then why not chose US citizens over non US citizens. same difference. they used to prefer US citizens, but now they've changed it. ur probably on a visa, right? thats why you want that to go your way. and im sure there are more people on visas than US citizens, because the whole rest of the world wants to get into a US residency.

scores are an ok criteria, but they've taken it a little too far where a person who scored less than 80 can't even find a program, even if it is considered a passing score. if that's the case they should make the passing score 80 so everyone has a fair chance...either that or lower it back to 75 if they won't do that.

LORs and PS should be included in criteria. but numbers shouldn't cut a person off from making it in a program. they should see the person as a whole like they used to. they don't do that anymore and just have score cutoffs, not even considering a person who scored less than their criteria.

i remember a time when the AMA had control over criteria and said all programs have to consider a person if they at least passed the USMLE and that PD's aren't supposed to make cut offs. PD's stopped listening to that rule, so that has all
changed now.

What about the school you graduated from...some of them are considered top AMG schools, top carrib schools, top whatever....that can be considered, but i dont think it is. im not sure on that. i grad from a top carrib school but they don't care. it's just hodge podge mostly about score critera. face it, we are just numbers in this game. nothing else seems to matter.

 

[MiniNMD]

this board keeps going off topic.

i'm going to ignore some of this and talk about where i wish this interesting discussion was going. top tier programs are always going to prefer US allopathic grads, and i really don't think that's changing any time soon. what i think some people are wondering is that with increased numbers in US allo med schools are some of those applicants going to lose potential spots because of all the prematching/etc that goes on at programs that are used to filling with IMGs. hard to say. i think if i were absolutely insistent that us seniors be given preference in the match i would think the all-in match system would favor that outcome.

what does everyone else think about the all-in match?

either way - the system as is favors us allos so i'm not sure why everyone is getting so hyped up about the "competition."

 

[turquoiseblue]

I think step 3 should be a bigger deal than it is, because it shows you know what it takes to be a resident. If you don't know that stuff, you're clueless as to what you need to know to get through residency. they should readily accept ones that can pass that test. step 3 is a really hard test. even if most fresh grads don't have it, the ones that do should be given a good shot at residency and not be denied so easily. i dont see why step 3 isn't considered a criteria at all. some residents are let go if they don't finish this test.

btw this isn't a personal quest. i don't think it is just unfair for me, it is unfair for thousands of people in my shoes. it happens to thousands per year if you didn't already know.

 

[a winner is you]

well tell me why they chose naive doctors over an experienced doctor. then why not chose US citizens over non US citizens. same difference. they used to prefer US citizens, but now they've changed it. ur probably on a visa, right? thats why you want that to go your way. and im sure there are more people on visas than US citizens, because the whole rest of the world wants to get into a US residency.

1. You are not an experienced doctor, you have less than 1 year of experience in 2 separate fields.

2. I am not on a visa.

3. I have a green card and have been in the US for 19 years with no intention of leaving anytime soon. I do not have US citizenship by choice.

4. I have already matched in a competitive residency so I have no vested interest in future changes.

 

[Nickelpennykid]

So easily denied??? Most people don't even get second chances. Go look at some of the applicants that scrambled this year FOR THE FIRST TIME with great CV's and try telling them your situation is unfair.

I think step 3 should be a bigger deal than it is, because it shows you know what it takes to be a resident. If you don't know that stuff, you're clueless as to what you need to know to get through residency. they should readily accept ones that can pass that test. step 3 is a really hard test. even if most fresh grads don't have it, the ones that do should be given a good shot at residency and not be denied so easily. i dont see why step 3 isn't considered a criteria at all. some residents are let go if they don't finish this test.

btw this isn't a personal quest. i don't think it is just unfair for me, it is unfair for thousands of people in my shoes. it happens to thousands per year if you didn't already know.

 

[a winner is you]

I think step 3 should be a bigger deal than it is, because it shows you know what it takes to be a resident. If you don't know that stuff, you're clueless as to what you need to know to get through residency. they should readily accept ones that can pass that test. step 3 is a really hard test. even if most fresh grads don't have it, the ones that do should be given a good shot at residency and not be denied so easily. i dont see why step 3 isn't considered a criteria at all. some residents are let go if they don't finish this test.

The step 3 is a joke. There's a reason why they say 2 months, 2 weeks, 2 pencils for step 1, 2 and 3. Also, what makes you think that anyone who did well on step 1 and 2 would have any trouble at all with step 3?

 

[ShyRem]

I beg to differ about step 3. It shows nothing about "what it takes to be a resident." It shows minimum competency to obtain a license. It takes much more to be a good resident.

 

[smq123]

I beg to differ about step 3. It shows nothing about "what it takes to be a resident." It shows minimum competency to obtain a license. It takes much more to be a good resident.

Agreed. Step 3 was the most annoying of the steps (2 days vs. 1 day), but it was the easiest of the three.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Agreed. Step 3 was the most annoying of the steps (2 days vs. 1 day), but it was the easiest of the three.

Step 3 is merely the latest argument of convenience...

 

[ilovepath]

Keep in mind there's a few residencies it's tough on like path...I agree for all clinical residents it should be no problem..but quite a few path residents, some very bright have struggled with it.

 

[142348]

well tell me why they chose naive doctors over an experienced doctor. then why not chose US citizens over non US citizens. same difference. they used to prefer US citizens, but now they've changed it. ur probably on a visa, right? thats why you want that to go your way. and im sure there are more people on visas than US citizens, because the whole rest of the world wants to get into a US residency.

scores are an ok criteria, but they've taken it a little too far where a person who scored less than 80 can't even find a program, even if it is considered a passing score. if that's the case they should make the passing score 80 so everyone has a fair chance...either that or lower it back to 75 if they won't do that.

LORs and PS should be included in criteria. but numbers shouldn't cut a person off from making it in a program. they should see the person as a whole like they used to. they don't do that anymore and just have score cutoffs, not even considering a person who scored less than their criteria.

i remember a time when the AMA had control over criteria and said all programs have to consider a person if they at least passed the USMLE and that PD's aren't supposed to make cut offs. PD's stopped listening to that rule, so that has all
changed now.

What about the school you graduated from...some of them are considered top AMG schools, top carrib schools, top whatever....that can be considered, but i dont think it is. im not sure on that. i grad from a top carrib school but they don't care. it's just hodge podge mostly about score critera. face it, we are just numbers in this game. nothing else seems to matter.

1. You are not experienced except at getting the boot from residency programs. Your two residency experiences do not amount to a lot of real experience. I'm a US citizen, born and raised, and I'm telling you the same thing.

2. People with low but passing scores can get residencies, when they don't have ridiculous red flags in their CV. You have both, two strikes. With the numbers of applications programs get and I've witnessed the last few years, it's a certainty that filters are going to be used. It is ridiculous for you to question how programs go through the hundreds to thousands of applications. Who do you think you are trying to tell programs how to screen applicants.

3. LOR's are great, if you get past the basic criteria. I can't see many programs getting past the bounced from two residencies, and barely passing boards

Programs, just like private sector companies, have the right to screen by the criteria they see fit as long as they do not violate the law, which they are not.

Based on your failed residency experiences (strike 1), your not so stellar board scores (strike 2), your caribbean education (strike 3), and your ridiculous attitude (you're out), its no wonder you don't have a residency.

 

[notdeadyet]

As I said I'm a DO, I choose to do the allopathic match and wound up matching where I wanted to be. We have DO residences that we can use, but until we allow US MD students to apply to our programs it's impossible to fault allopathic residences for taking their own first.

I'm not sure why folks focus on allopaths not being allowed to apply to osteopathic residencies. It is a non-starter. Even folks I know applying to rads and derm aren't asking to apply to the osteopathic match.

Even if allopaths were allowed to apply to osteopathic residencies, allopathic residencies would still prefer allopaths over osteopaths as a general rule. And osteopathic residencies might very well prefer osteopaths over allopaths.

It's in a similar vein to your usually having an advantage applying to your home program's residency over someone who attended another medical school (assuming you are any good).

The familiar is reassuring. The different is taking a risk. If you're a hot applicant, you're worth the risk. But if everything's a similar looking apple, you'll buy it from the trusted grocer.

 

[notdeadyet]

well tell me why they chose naive doctors over an experienced doctor.

They don't. They prefer naive doctors over badly experienced doctors. I think L2D summed it up pretty well.

then why not chose US citizens over non US citizens. same difference. they used to prefer US citizens, but now they've changed it.

No, they still vastly prefer US citizens, all things being equal. A program will always take a US citizen over someone they will have to deal with visa issues for, all things being equal.

But all things aren't always equal. Programs will prefer a non-US citizen with a great record to a US citizen with a spotty one. As it should be.

scores are an ok criteria, but they've taken it a little too far where a person who scored less than 80 can't even find a program, even if it is considered a passing score. if that's the case they should make the passing score 80 so everyone has a fair chance...either that or lower it back to 75 if they won't do that.

Uh... anyone with an 80 has a great shot at finding a residency if they apply broadly and early enough to a variety of specialties. Someone with an 80 might not realize their dream of a radiology residency on the eastern seaboard, but they'll find a family slot somewhere rural.

95% of the time, folks who "can't find a program" didn't apply early enough, broadly enough, or to the appropriate specialties given their application.

LORs and PS should be included in criteria. but numbers shouldn't cut a person off from making it in a program. they should see the person as a whole like they used to.

LORs are very much included in the criteria. PS is... considered (appropriately, given that it's a one page essay).

But numbers will always be used to cut a big pile into a small pile. Numbers are objective. They don't tell the whole picture, which is why folks are interviewed and LORs and such are taken into account.

What about the school you graduated from...some of them are considered top AMG schools, top carrib schools, top whatever....that can be considered, but i dont think it is.

It's considered. How heavily it's taken into consideration depends on the competitiveness of the program and it's philosophy.

im not sure on that. i grad from a top carrib school but they don't care.

They probably do. Most allopathic programs recognize the top allopathic residencies. They also recognize the top DO programs and top international programs, though probably not on the same level as any allopathic program.

it's just hodge podge mostly about score critera. face it, we are just numbers in this game. nothing else seems to matter.

Numbers matter less than they used to in the application process. No one was talking about "look at the whole applicant" 20 years ago. No one looked at someone's "commitment to the underserved" and the stigma against DOs and international med school grads was much more rampant than it is now.

Overall, this is probably the best time there's been to be a Caribbean graduate with mediocre board scores.

Your frustration is palpable. Once the dust settles, I hope you're able to take a deep breath and look at your application objectively and try to minimize the damage that exists. Support from colleagues familiar with your application would probably be very useful.

 

[IveGotTwins]

I think we've all been duped. I think turquoiseblue is just having fun here.

I really can't imagine someone with an 80 (an 80? REALLY?!?!?) on Step 1, from a caribbean school (we all know why they exist), who has been "let go" from TWO residency programs, who thinks that there are thousands of people in the exact same situation and accuses everyone who disagrees of being foreign could be so ridiculously entitled to think that just because of a letter from a PD that essentially says "it's not as bad as it looks" and a passing Step 3 (come on!) should just get a residency because of a US Citizenship.

There is no way all of these thoughts and opinions came out of someone who is not having a laugh. I mean, I did a psych rotation and never saw such delusion. Of course, none of the truly insane folks at the psych hospital had access to the internet and forums such as SDN to post their "theories".

Anyone agree?

 

[turquoiseblue]

i think a majority are just conformists to the current system. they don't want to let it go because it worked for them. i would gather that most of the bashers of me are not born US citizens as well.

 

[Gordon Sims]

I think we've all been duped. I think turquoiseblue is just having fun here.

I really can't imagine someone with an 80 (an 80? REALLY?!?!?) on Step 1, from a caribbean school (we all know why they exist), who has been "let go" from TWO residency programs, who thinks that there are thousands of people in the exact same situation and accuses everyone who disagrees of being foreign could be so ridiculously entitled to think that just because of a letter from a PD that essentially says "it's not as bad as it looks" and a passing Step 3 (come on!) should just get a residency because of a US Citizenship.

There is no way all of these thoughts and opinions came out of someone who is not having a laugh. I mean, I did a psych rotation and never saw such delusion. Of course, none of the truly insane folks at the psych hospital had access to the internet and forums such as SDN to post their "theories".

Anyone agree?

Don't know. Don't care. Moving on...

 

[anon-y-mouse]

I think step 3 should be a bigger deal than it is, because it shows you know what it takes to be a resident. If you don't know that stuff, you're clueless as to what you need to know to get through residency. they should readily accept ones that can pass that test. step 3 is a really hard test. even if most fresh grads don't have it, the ones that do should be given a good shot at residency and not be denied so easily. i dont see why step 3 isn't considered a criteria at all. some residents are let go if they don't finish this test.

Didn't you fail step 3 twice and then just barely pass? If you're looking at it from your own proposed criteria, wouldn't you be considered a terrible resident?

 

[IveGotTwins]

i think a majority are just conformists to the current system. they don't want to let it go because it worked for them. i would gather that most of the bashers of me are not born US citizens as well.

I think you're right and wrong. I'm a "born US citizen" who disagrees so you're wrong at least in my case. And you're right because most of us do like the system as it is because it obviously works for normal people who are smart enough to get through it. In fact, I LOVE the system. I'm at a super awesome allopathic school in the US, absolutely killed Step 1 and Step 2 without all that extra time you seem to think "them foreigners" get, took a year off to do a research project, and even got ridiculously great LORs and matched into an <insert superlative> residency. And then you know what I'm not going to do? QUIT!!! Because even with all the stuff I've done, it would be a b!tch to try to get back after doing so. And if I had to go to a caribbean school but somehow got into a residency I would know that it would be that much harder to get a second one. You somehow got a second one and QUIT again. But just because you're a "born US citizen" you should be given a thrid one over someone who is smarter than you obviously, has better stats than me, worked harder than both of us but just happened to be born somewhere else should be passed over for you? NO WAY!

My point is that I'm not unique. There are a ton of people who have done what I did and even done it better. No question. I felt mediocre out there on interviews. So the competition is fierce and a US citizenship is going to get you nothing, your argument gets you nowhere and you need to look at yourself for the solutions to your questions/problems and stop blaming the world.

Also, I saw your post over in the thread concerning online MBAs. You stated that the program told you to stop and you disobeyed them directly. That's ludicrous. As an intern you thought you should be splitting your time with an online degree? It's unbelievable.

(By the way, if you're just playing games, I'm loving the banter.)

 

[chiz2kul]

stop feeding the troll and get back on topic dammit!

 

[J-Rad]

This thread is toast. Closing.