Food/Large Animal Track

[RackingHorse]

I am planning on becoming a large animal vet. With the national shortage of large/food animal vets, do you all think that planning on taking the large animal track in vet school would be a deciding factor for the interviewers to admit you?

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[Minnerbelle]

I am planning on becoming a large animal vet. With the national shortage of large/food animal vets, do you all think that planning on taking the large animal track in vet school would be a deciding factor for the interviewers to admit you?

IMHO, no. And esp if you bring it up that way (like, "I want to go into food animal to fill the void. wink wink nudge nudge"), you might sound a bit ignorant.

According to the American Association of Bovine Practitioners, the "national shortage of large/food animal vets" is an illusion and doesn't actually exist. There's enough food animal vets out there to cover paying jobs. The problem with underserved areas is that they CANNOT AFFORD to support a vet. So unless money is not an issue at all whatsoever upon graduation, no matter how willing you are to go into rural food animal practice, you will not find a job to fill an underserved niche. And I'm talking about enough pay to support the overhead costs of a clinic, minimal pay for living + paying off loans... not so much to strike it rich or anything. A lot of these places don't even have an existing practice (because again, the economics just don't work out), so even if new grads wanted to work there for no money, many also face the daunting task of needing to open a brand new clinic with no mentorship. What I hear (not really sure about the validity of this statement, so someone more enlightened should weigh in on this) is that post-grad training is much more important in LA than in SA... so that's something else to think about. Alliecat has posted somewhere about people in her graduating class who were in some sort of LA subsidy program who are in huge trouble because they couldn't find qualifying LA jobs upon graduation that are contingencies in receiving their tuition breaks. That's really scary.

Anyhoos, here's the link to the "Summary Opinion of the American Association of Bovine Practitioner's Ad Hoc Committee on Rural Veterinary Practice"

It's been a really really hot topic this year, so esp if you're into LA and want to go into rural practice, then it's something to definitely look into. I can totally see this being a current events question in interviews this year, esp for the LA folks. My disclaimer is that I'm soooo not a LA person, and honestly don't care too much about it, so I am not the most knowledgeable person about this topic. That being said, I have not heard one knowledgeable person in the field talk about a true shortage in LA this year.

My personal opinion is that there really isn't any one field in vet med where there's a dearth of willing employees, so I wouldn't count on that to carry anyone through. If you're interested in LA, that's awesome! But I think it would be much more worth your while to talk in an interview about what it is about LA that you love so much, rather than focusing on the "need" for LA vets. And be ready to talk about the common problems LA vets face.


Also, this is very school dependent, but in many cases the interviewers just have an "input" about you as an applicant, and don't actually make the decision to admit you. And not all schools track, so be careful how you word that in interviews depending on the school you're at. (sorry, wasn't sure which schools you were applying to so not sure if this is at all relevant).

 

[lostbunny]

I am planning on becoming a large animal vet. With the national shortage of large/food animal vets, do you all think that planning on taking the large animal track in vet school would be a deciding factor for the interviewers to admit you?

If this is truly what you want to do, work with large animals/food animals, then talk about that in your interview. Do it because YOU want to, not because you think its what people want you to do.

If anything its something that makes you stand out, but do it because its what you want to do in your heart, not because you think its your ticket in.

 

[deleted387118]

I believe that having a solid large animal interest was a deciding factor in my application and here is why:

I applied with no degree, a 3.5 GPA, a 1220 GRE. My top choice was Kansas which is pretty much the best beef school in the United States. I applied to Wisconsin because their Dairy program and Virginia Maryland because they take tend students from Penn State (my undergrad).

I got waitlisted at Wisconsin - like way down. I got waitlisted for an interview at VM, managed to get that interview, and then got an offer right away. Every answer I gave at my VM interview had my large animal experience in it.

At Kansas, all we talked about was my large animal experience: the fact that my ancestors all farm, that I grew up on a farm, that I started my own cow-calf operation when I was 12 and was active in 4-H livestock. I was an officer in Ag Student Council, an officer in Pre-Vet, an officer in Collegiate Cattlewomen, an officer in Earth House, a marketing member of American British White Park Association. We then discussed the pros/cons of raising White Park cattle and how I intended to maintain my business on top of school work. We discussed cattle show ethics. We discussed my intent to join SCAABP and Therio Club. We discussed the fact that I was considering getting a MPH, or perhaps specializing after school.

Short version: I proved that not only did I plan on being a large animal veterinarian, I knew what went into it, and had large, long-term ties into the industry. Without it, I don't think I would have gotten in a year early.

Edit: I forgot to mention - I think that without proving a solid interest, most interviewers will probably take "I want to be a LA vet" with a grain of salt, because people do try to use the line to get in.

 

[LetItSnow]

I am planning on becoming a large animal vet. With the national shortage of large/food animal vets, do you all think that planning on taking the large animal track in vet school would be a deciding factor for the interviewers to admit you?

I'm not sure what you mean by "deciding factor". If you mean, will a school take you over a somewhat more-qualified candidate just because you want to go large animal ... I doubt it. If you mean, will it influence their decision if they are staring at you and someone with an expressed small-animal interest and you're both virtually equal on paper .... then probably. Depending on the school. But what are the odds of that happening?

Vets I've talked to who are currently or formerly connected with UMN says it makes a difference, but it's hard to tell if that's really true or just one of those myths that flies around any big organization. I was talking with a former chief (at UMN) of LA surgery once, and he asked "Are you interested in large animal? That will get you at the top of the list." But then, he wasn't involved in the application process, so I didn't really put a ton of stock in his comment. Hard to say whether he's right or just blowing smoke.

In the end, I'm not sure there's much value in the question. It's not like you're going to 'pretend' to be interested in LA just to get into school ... right? You're going to present yourself, your credentials, and your interests, whatever they are, and leave it in the schools' hands to make a decision. But knowing whether they value large animal more highly isn't going to change how you present yourself.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

According to the American Association of Bovine Practitioners, the "national shortage of large/food animal vets" is an illusion and doesn't actually exist. There's enough food animal vets out there to cover paying jobs. The problem with underserved areas is that they CANNOT AFFORD to support a vet. So unless money is not an issue at all whatsoever upon graduation, no matter how willing you are to go into rural food animal practice, you will not find a job to fill an underserved niche. And I'm talking about enough pay to support the overhead costs of a clinic, minimal pay for living + paying off loans... not so much to strike it rich or anything. A lot of these places don't even have an existing practice (because again, the economics just don't work out), so even if new grads wanted to work there for no money, many also face the daunting task of needing to open a brand new clinic with no mentorship. What I hear (not really sure about the validity of this statement, so someone more enlightened should weigh in on this) is that post-grad training is much more important in LA than in SA... so that's something else to think about. Alliecat has posted somewhere about people in her graduating class who were in some sort of LA subsidy program who are in huge trouble because they couldn't find qualifying LA jobs upon graduation that are contingencies in receiving their tuition breaks. That's really scary.

This is very true. The majority of my food animal/large animal colleagues had a hell of a time finding a job after school (I knew them quite well because I took a lot of FA track classes with them, even though I ultimately decided on path). They all eventually did, but it was much harder than finding SA jobs.

Another issue is that it is very hard to find food animal vets who are willing to take on and mentor new associates. They can't afford to pay them, and are too busy to train them, or too near retirement to take anyone on.

 

[Escalla]

According to the American Association of Bovine Practitioners, the "national shortage of large/food animal vets" is an illusion and doesn't actually exist. There's enough food animal vets out there to cover paying jobs. The problem with underserved areas is that they CANNOT AFFORD to support a vet. So unless money is not an issue at all whatsoever upon graduation, no matter how willing you are to go into rural food animal practice, you will not find a job to fill an underserved niche. And I'm talking about enough pay to support the overhead costs of a clinic, minimal pay for living + paying off loans... not so much to strike it rich or anything. A lot of these places don't even have an existing practice (because again, the economics just don't work out), so even if new grads wanted to work there for no money, many also face the daunting task of needing to open a brand new clinic with no mentorship. What I hear (not really sure about the validity of this statement, so someone more enlightened should weigh in on this) is that post-grad training is much more important in LA than in SA... so that's something else to think about. Alliecat has posted somewhere about people in her graduating class who were in some sort of LA subsidy program who are in huge trouble because they couldn't find qualifying LA jobs upon graduation that are contingencies in receiving their tuition breaks. That's really scary.

Anyhoos, here's the link to the "Summary Opinion of the American Association of Bovine Practitioner’s Ad Hoc Committee on Rural Veterinary Practice"

I've seen a few articles pop up that are similar in saying that there is no actual shortage. Which is really confusing since so many schools are putting into place the "VetFAST" or "FastVet" at the U of M or UCDavis for students interested in food animals. While food animal would consist of more than just large animal, it would still probably be mostly people interested in cattle.

Stay true to what you actually want to do. It will be really transparent to the admissions committee if you're just blowing smoke.

 

[breenie]

Yeah, they are skeptical.

I gently expressed interest in LA. I actually kind of downplayed it a bit per the recommendation of one of the Wisconsin admissions folks I talked to. I would like to do equine or FA (or a healthy mix of both!) but 800+ of my vet hours were from a SA clinic and my background is entirely equine, no farm.

They are wary of a tiny city girl saying, "I WANNA PALPATE!!!!" Missouri questioned me somewhat extensively in my interview about it, and asked what I considered pointed questions (ie, what were the differences in dairies I visited, where did I see the industry going in the future, did I think industrialization was a big part of that future?). I don't think I could have answered well if I didn't genuinely have an interest in the field.

I explained that I really liked LA, but nobody knows where life will take them, so I officially declared myself "undecided and open-minded". They seemed pleased with this stance. I don't think it helped me any more than anyone else, but I think it demonstrated thoughtfulness on my part, at least.

 

[RackingHorse]

For those of you who were wondering what schools I was planning on applying to, I will probably be applying to UT and UGA.

I truly do want to go into large animals, with probably more of a focus on horses, since I am a horse person I just feel like that is what I would be happiest doing.

As far as the shortage of large animal vets go I am getting mixed information from different sources. You visit one website or read an article that says there is a critical shortage of large animal/rural practice veterinarians, then you read something from a different source and it is an entirely different story.

I do however feel like a good background in Equine would be a good choice for the East Tennessee area, the horse industry seems to be very strong there.

 

[jmo1012]

are you in state for UGA? if not, dont forget that they only take 2 OOS students every year-advice to spend your money wisely (during the application process that is)

 

[RackingHorse]

I am not completely sure about this. But, I am a military dependent and my step-dad is stationed in Augusta, Georgia. So, I am thinking that I will be considered in state at UGA.

 

[breenie]

I am not completely sure about this. But, I am a military dependent and my step-dad is stationed in Augusta, Georgia. So, I am thinking that I will be considered in state at UGA.

Not sure if you think you're instate for UT, too, but you can only mark one state as residency for VMCAS. I technically qualified for in state at two schools, and I would have had to "choose" an IS and then petition the other school. I declined to apply to my "second" IS so it wasn't an issue, but talk to both schools if you think you possibly qualify for both.

 

[RackingHorse]

I am a resident of Tennessee.

 

[jtom]

I hope im not given a hard time because I truly want to do large animal, I hope they dont look at those who express interest in it as only saying it just to get into school.

 

[lostbunny]

I truly do want to go into large animals, with probably more of a focus on horses, since I am a horse person I just feel like that is what I would be happiest doing.

Not sure what its like in the USA, but when I was applying to OVC there was a very very strong distinction between equine and large animal. A lot of people stressed that equine is equine and large animal is food animal production.

I think I remember someone saying that equines are even considered closer to companion animal, based on the idea that the horse world is much closer to the dog/cat world then the cattle industry.

Hopefully someone can chime in here on that topic with regards to American schools, but that sort of stood out when I read your post, Rackinghorse.

Out here where I'm living, the local vet does cattle and horses, but most of the horses in the area are working horses. A little while's away where you're more into horse country, there are equine-specialty clinics.

 

[breenie]

I hope im not given a hard time because I truly want to do large animal, I hope they dont look at those who express interest in it as only saying it just to get into school.

Don't sweat it, jtom! You've got a mixed animal background and can back up your interest with specific experiences. They'll see on your app that you are serious. My SA numbers were higher than my LA numbers (about 800 vs. 500-600, part of which was bovine research), so that's why I was instructed to be cautious.

If you are sincere, that will show.

 

[breenie]

I am a resident of Tennessee.

I'd give both schools a call and let them know your situation, and ask what they want you to do. Sounds like you qualify for both, so take advantage of that! How applicants are evaluated changes based on IS vs OOS (less vs. more competition), so you'd get a big leg up if you were a resident for both.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I hope im not given a hard time because I truly want to do large animal, I hope they dont look at those who express interest in it as only saying it just to get into school.

No, that would be ridiculous IMO. If you have a lot of experience in LA, and you just talk about why you love LA, and how you imagine your career will look like based on your experiences, then there's nothing wrong with that.

It will only look like you're saying it just to get into school if you present it that way. Like, if you keep on bringing up your "LA interest" every chance you get... or you start talking about how you want to go into it because there's a need without a clear understanding of what that means, etc...

 

[Minnerbelle]

As far as the shortage of large animal vets go I am getting mixed information from different sources. You visit one website or read an article that says there is a critical shortage of large animal/rural practice veterinarians, then you read something from a different source and it is an entirely different story.

So... this is your chance to really set yourself apart by doing more research into it. You won't sound very knowledgeable (and therefore genuine) if you just tell your interviewers that there are some articles claiming an extreme shortage, and others saying that's false. Actually go and find real stats from reputable sources, and fine-comb through all those articles to see what they're really saying. Also, look at the dates that those articles were written. The whole acute shortage of LA vets idea was very popular just a few years ago... which is when a lot of these subsidized programs were also really getting popular it seems like. Also, talk to a bunch of LA vets as well as producers and find out what their opinions are.

From my very limited knowledge, it seems like a lot of the places citing a shortage is looking at it from the producer's point of view. How hard is it for a particular producer to find a vet to serve him/her? There are definitely many areas where there are many cattle that don't have vets to see them. But that doesn't automatically mean that adding the number of LA vets will solve that problem.

If you look at it from the vet profession's point of view, you'll get a different answer. How easy is it for a particular vet with LA interest to find a job? Well if it's not easy for a vet to find a job... then is there really a shortage? (as in, should we be pumping out way more LA vets to overcome this "shortage"?)

Also, someone correct me if I'm wrong... but I was under the impression that equine vets were not considered to be a part of even this "critical shortage of LA vets" that people are kind of skeptical of in and of itself.

 

[jtom]

Don't sweat it, jtom! You've got a mixed animal background and can back up your interest with specific experiences. They'll see on your app that you are serious. My SA numbers were higher than my LA numbers (about 800 vs. 500-600, part of which was bovine research), so that's why I was instructed to be cautious.

If you are sincere, that will show.

No, that would be ridiculous IMO. If you have a lot of experience in LA, and you just talk about why you love LA, and how you imagine your career will look like based on your experiences, then there's nothing wrong with that.

It will only look like you're saying it just to get into school if you present it that way. Like, if you keep on bringing up your "LA interest" every chance you get... or you start talking about how you want to go into it because there's a need without a clear understanding of what that means, etc...

Thanks guys! I was a little nervous about being questioned but if I have the experiences to back it up then they really cant say much.

 

[Raimes]

Quick questions I have way more hours working in a mixed animal practice (where we saw everything) then an equine only practice, but my interest is in equine. Should I be downplaying that because I do not have the same amount of equine (although I have lots and lots of hours of taking care of horses/showing) veterinary experience?

 

[lareinesoleil]

Quick questions I have way more hours working in a mixed animal practice (where we saw everything) then an equine only practice, but my interest is in equine. Should I be downplaying that because I do not have the equine (although I have lots and lots of hours of taking care of horses/showing) veterinary experience?

If they ask, I think you could say something like, "I've always had an interest in horses, I got a job at a mixed practice to see a bit of everything, and now that I've had some experience with both large and small animals my primary interest still lies with equine medicine at this point." Then you could talk about all your other equine experiences to back that up.

 

[breenie]

If they ask, I think you could say something like, "I've always had an interest in horses, I got a job at a mixed practice to see a bit of everything, and now that I've had some experience with both large and small animals my primary interest still lies with equine medicine at this point." Then you could talk about all your other equine experiences to back that up.

 

[Raimes]

Sounds good to me! Thanks!

 

[vacavet]

While the large animal shortage is something important, when it comes to your applications it is much more important to convey to the adcom your knowledge, experience, interest in the large/food animal area. I had more small animal vet hours than large animal vet hours but the mixture in my experience I think only helped to show being well rounded. But my experience as a whole showed my dedication to food animal medicine. If you are sincere and passionate about food/large animal it will be clear to the adcom. If you arent serious and lie in hopes of getting, in they'll know and then it will be no good. If you say how interested you are in food animal reproduction and can't respond to any of their questions it will be a red flag to them. So regardless of shortage or not go into it if you are passionate about it.

 

[HappyCowsfromCA]

Of all the people I've talked to, you need to have an expressed and demonstrated interest in whatever your interest area is, whether that's food animal medicine, exotics, or small animal medicine. If you say that you want to do food animal, but all your experience is in small animal and you can't answer any questions about cattle, pigs, sheep, etc, chances are, they're going to figure out you're not for real.

My cousin, a third year at Davis this year, is a true blue food animal vet. Grew up on a dairy, worked for a large animal vet forever, blah blah blah. He has seen more than a couple people trying to switch tracks from food animal to small or equine, and it has been really hard (for some, impossible) for a lot of them. Plus, would you really want to be taking food animal electives when you're honestly, truly interested in small animal (or exotics, or equine, or whatever)?

 

[cowdoc2]

New poster, old vet. I don't think expressing your desire to practice on any species will affect your interview. Be yourself, be confident, be gracious, be honest, and enjoy the experience.

As a solo rural vet of 20 yrs, I would love to mentor/hire someone committed to the lifestyle. My concern is I would not be able to offer a salary high enough to service your debt and provide a reasonable living for you. I also don't think I have enough work or staff to support a full time associate. That being said, my current thought process is to hire someone, split time with them until trained, and gradually reduce my hours so I can pursue other interests (kids, vacations, and my own ranch). Economically it doesn't make sense for me to do this, but that's where my heart is.

As an aside, I would not hire based on grades but on people skills, teachability, and enthusiasm. Oh and what my wife says

 

[cowgirla]

New poster, old vet. I don't think expressing your desire to practice on any species will affect your interview. Be yourself, be confident, be gracious, be honest, and enjoy the experience.

As a solo rural vet of 20 yrs, I would love to mentor/hire someone committed to the lifestyle. My concern is I would not be able to offer a salary high enough to service your debt and provide a reasonable living for you. I also don't think I have enough work or staff to support a full time associate. That being said, my current thought process is to hire someone, split time with them until trained, and gradually reduce my hours so I can pursue other interests (kids, vacations, and my own ranch). Economically it doesn't make sense for me to do this, but that's where my heart is.

As an aside, I would not hire based on grades but on people skills, teachability, and enthusiasm. Oh and what my wife says

Thank you for taking the time to post here for the prevets and us vet students! It is always greatly appreciated to hear the thoughts of a veterinarian, and especially those of a well-established vet such as yourself. I'm sure I speak for most of us when I say that I hope you'll stick around!

Economically, it seems like there isn't much that makes sense right about now- something that worries a lot of us, but I won't get into that here! As someone interested in mixed animal medicine, and leaning more and more towards large animal with every day that passes, if I were a new vet, the situation you propose with the splitting time sounds like wonderful way to enter an established clientele and learn the ins and outs, but like you said, the money will be an issue.

Also, for those of us who might not be at the top of our class, it is nice to hear that our better qualities will be assessed when looking for jobs in the future. After a particularly rough semester, that was something I'd begun to worry about! (But just in case, where I can send cookies to your wife?)

 

[twelvetigers]

We love having seasoned vets as forum members.

Welcome!

 

[cowdoc2]

>>>But just in case, where I can send cookies to your wife?)<<<

She's on her diet currently, and sweets are her downfall, so just send them to me

From reading another thread on vin, it struck me that no one has explored a career in the public sector. Back in my day the govt was very competitive and had excellent benefits. I don't know what they're doing now with all this budget crisis crap going on, but it may be used as a stop gap for several years until you get your vet legs under you, figger out what you really want to do, and maybe the private market may be strengthening by then. Just thinking out loud. I know if push came to shove, I would explore EVERY option.

 

[Kiwi4Vet]

Sorry, but there is no largies vet shortage. Saying you're interested might get you bonus points with the admissions committee in vet school, but following through with it won't help you get a job. I just finished my degree as a large animal tracker, one of the top in my class. Had impeccable references and targeted rural large-animal/mixed practices. Most had started counting applications in inches rather than real numbers, and I didn't meet any that didn't have enough to get at least three serious people in for interviews. Over twenty interviews, 9 months of independent searching, three placement agencies, and I don't know how many miles later (spanned the country thrice in my search) I am still jobless. Oh yeah, the loan repayment schemes--seems some new grads are having to RETURN monies already received because they were unable to land a permanent job in a designated area. The job market has done a major shift in the last four years--the AVMA has yet to acknowledge it, and with the economy still sluggish there's no guarantee of if/when/how much things might improve. It gets really questionable when you consider the increased burden from new schools and newly accredited schools that will be coming along in the next 5-7 years.

 

[cowgirla]

Just thinking out loud. I know if push came to shove, I would explore EVERY option.

When push comes to shove, I do plan on doing just that and digging deep for options. I would have no issues working for the government for a few years, providing it was a position that allowed me to maintain my clinical skills. I have heard that it is important to maintain those skills the first few years out of school to really cement the knowledge in and develop yourself as a veterinarian, so I'm not sure if that would limit what government jobs would really be suitable. Then again, with such a high debt load, I would probably be willing to take just about anything, and worry about the repolishing clinical skills further on down the road. Thoughts of residencies are also going through my head, although I've seen very few that would allow me to focus on a number of species in my ideal career path. There are a few mixed LA/EQ residencies that I've been keeping in the back of my mind, but as that's still three years away, I haven't looked into them too deeply as of yet. I've even considered the army, but after talking with a few people involved in that, there's no way they would ever let me in due to old health issues.
I do think that it's definitely important to be flexible in this economy, no arguments there.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

From reading another thread on vin, it struck me that no one has explored a career in the public sector. Back in my day the govt was very competitive and had excellent benefits. I don't know what they're doing now with all this budget crisis crap going on, but it may be used as a stop gap for several years until you get your vet legs under you, figger out what you really want to do, and maybe the private market may be strengthening by then. Just thinking out loud. I know if push came to shove, I would explore EVERY option.

The USDA has room, but I don't know much about others. It's no longer the best option, either. I know for a fact that finding jobs (at least in my sector) in state and national diagnostic labs is extremely hard. You pretty much need to either wait until someone dies or retires for a job to open up given the present economy - people are less willing to give up a job because they may not find another.

 

[Aegolius acadicus]

So I thought I would bump this thread because it's something that has been on my mind a lot lately. Since starting undergrad, I've really developed a strong interest in agriculture and would really like to pursue a large/food track in vet school. Just to clarify, based on the original intent of the thread, I am not expecting this to really have much impact on my odds of admission (to me that seems like a silly way to evaluate a candidate, especially since intent can be changed).

Since expressing interest in going into LA practice, I've had a lot of people tell me how much of a shortage of LA vets there are, but I've kind of taken that with a grain of salt given a lack of concrete evidence, so I'm kind of glad to have found this thread just to clear that up. Can anyone weigh in on whether the job market for LA vets is still not good? I know there probably hasn't been too much that's changed since 2011, but I was wondering whether anyone has any more current input on this.

I feel like I have a good mix of vet experience (SA, LA, equine, and wildlife), and the large animal stuff is what I really have enjoyed. I've also worked on a dairy for 3 years, and that's been a really great learning experience and has gotten me very passionate about production animal health/welfare, so while I'm not sure yet how much this changes my mind about that, I'd like to have a better picture of what the market for LA vets is like right now. This also sounds like something I should talk to some current vets about. If anyone has any thoughts, I'd really appreciate the input!

 

[swiniazycie]

I can't say that me expressing interest in food animal got me into Vet school. But I like to think my experience in food animal and the fact that I could prove I knew what I was talking about during my interviews helped. I also grew up on a farm, so I got a lot of "factory farm" vs family farm trap questions.

If you're truly interested, prove it. Just like everyone else has said Haha

 

[GretaBug3]

I love the food animal industry. I am starting vet school in the fall and have an strong interest in doing FA medicine. I worked on a 3,600 sow farm as an intern one summer and also a small family owned dairy farm for about a year during school several years back now. I would love to see this thread bumped and get a fresh perspective on the current industry whether is in private practice, companies, or governmental agencies.

I already have my MPH and think that USDA-APHIS work could be something interesting to hear about and pursue as well.