For DOs, is COMLEX still enough?

[nowaysanjose]

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With psych getting more competitive, is COMLEX still good enough for those of us taking it this summer, or should we also register for USMLE? I would like to stay in the southeastern US

 

[postbacpremed87]

With psych getting more competitive, is COMLEX still good enough for those of us taking it this summer, or should we also register for USMLE? I would like to stay in the southeastern US

As long as you're okay with the students who took Step 1 (and performed well on it) being preferred over you. If you do well on Level 1, then you can still match without it if you choose programs wisely. I personally desired to make interview season less stressful so I took Step 1 (Even contemplating Step 2). Good luck.

 

[Wilf]

They should really do away with COMLEX and have everyone take USMLE. It seems ridiculous to me that DOs get away with taking easier exams and then are considered "equal" when they complete training and are paid the same also. It would also force DO schools to increase their standards for admission. FMGs should be even angrier because their schools are lower quality in general and yet they have to take the tougher USMLEs.

 

[abcdior]

They should really do away with COMLEX and have everyone take USMLE. It seems ridiculous to me that DOs get away with taking easier exams and then are considered "equal" when they complete training and are paid the same also. It would also force DO schools to increase their standards for admission. FMGs should be even angrier because their schools are lower quality in general and yet they have to take the tougher USMLEs.

 

[Candidate2017]

They should really do away with COMLEX and have everyone take USMLE. It seems ridiculous to me that DOs get away with taking easier exams and then are considered "equal" when they complete training and are paid the same also. It would also force DO schools to increase their standards for admission. FMGs should be even angrier because their schools are lower quality in general and yet they have to take the tougher USMLEs.

I'm glad you aced the Comlex and disagree with the many DO students who wish Comlex questions were more like the USMLE.

 

[Candidate2017]

With psych getting more competitive, is COMLEX still good enough for those of us taking it this summer, or should we also register for USMLE? I would like to stay in the southeastern US

Comlex is good enough for many places in the southeast not named Emory. Do auditions. Show up, show interest, be liked and emphasize your geographical connection. Psychiatry is still a noncompetitive specialty.

 

[GUH]

I took the COMLEX only, passing but below average for both levels, and got 9 ACGME interviews out of 50 ACGME programs applied to. Most of the 50 were programs that have taken DOs in the past, and all of them stated on their web site that they accept COMLEX scores. 2 of the 9 invitations were probably due to the fact that I auditioned there. One of them I suspect gave an interview because I applied for an audition but they didn't have enough space. I matched AOA but am pretty certain that I could have matched ACGME if I decided to go for it, given that the auditions went really well. Auditions help, especially if you're not from the area so they know that you're serious and that you're good to work with.

I don't know about the southeast specifically.

 

[grapefruit17]

for what its worth, i was on the waitlist for Emory with no usmle step 2. I believe i was waitlisted because i didnt have my PE score until winter, because literally right after I got my score they told my application was looked favorably upon and would be given a spot to interview if someone dropped.

is comlex enough? probably. Probably also depends on your comlex score. In total i had around 10 interview invitations ACGME wise, with about 3-4 waitlists. Below average comlex step 1 with a very good comlex step 2. Below average usmle step 1.

as far as comlex being easier, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and arguing seems pointless lol. Personally i wouldnt necessarily call it easier, just "different". A lot of the USMLE questions were tough but they were at least concepts i studied and tough because they were thought provoking. COMLEX was a lot of questions on stuff i had never even thought of studying, lol.

 

[prok]

for what its worth, i was on the waitlist for Emory with no usmle step 2. I believe i was waitlisted because i didnt have my PE score until winter, because literally right after I got my score they told my application was looked favorably upon and would be given a spot to interview if someone dropped.

At least 3 people at my school got that same exact message and didn't get an interview. I wouldn't take it as evidence of anything.

 

[grapefruit17]

At least 3 people at my school got that same exact message and didn't get an interview. I wouldn't take it as evidence of anything.

It's not really meant to be taken as evidence. But I do have a good friend currently in the program at emory who only took comlex. So it is probably fine to just take comlex if you do well on comlex and have overall a good app, besides maybe some places that hold a bias. Most psych programs seem do friendly to me

Not trying to be mean in my reply btw. I just want to give a sense that their are def many possibilities out there. Applying for residency seems like a very hard to predict thing because you never know who will like you and who won't.

 

[postbacpremed87]

Given a USMLE Step 1 of 239, should I take USMLE Step 2 as a DO? I am 50/50. I was wondering if PDs appreciate the cojones involved in taking Level 1, Step 1, Level 2, Step 2, and Level 2 PE. That's a lot of tests.

 

[nowaysanjose]

I took the COMLEX only, passing but below average for both levels, and got 9 ACGME interviews out of 50 ACGME programs applied to. Most of the 50 were programs that have taken DOs in the past, and all of them stated on their web site that they accept COMLEX scores. 2 of the 9 invitations were probably due to the fact that I auditioned there. One of them I suspect gave an interview because I applied for an audition but they didn't have enough space. I matched AOA but am pretty certain that I could have matched ACGME if I decided to go for it, given that the auditions went really well. Auditions help, especially if you're not from the area so they know that you're serious and that you're good to work with.

I don't know about the southeast specifically.

Is it normal to apply to 50 programs?

 

[Mad Jack]

They should really do away with COMLEX and have everyone take USMLE. It seems ridiculous to me that DOs get away with taking easier exams and then are considered "equal" when they complete training and are paid the same also. It would also force DO schools to increase their standards for admission. FMGs should be even angrier because their schools are lower quality in general and yet they have to take the tougher USMLEs.

I agree that they should do away with the COMLEX, but it certainly isn't an easier exam. As to foreign graduates, DO schools have higher stats than basically every foreign institution that takes US students, so there is little reason to believe that DOs would have trouble passing the USMLE, particularly considering that many US DO schools have scores similar to US MD schools fifteen or twenty years back (whose students did just fine on the USMLE and in training and are currently the attendings at many of the programs the DOs are applying to these days).

In regard to whether to take the USMLE, we're already at a disadvantage. Taking Step 1 and Step 2 substantially reduces the barriers we have in regard to many programs, so if you can afford it and think you can pass, why wouldn't you take the USMLE?

 

[SomeDoc]

Having taken both, comlex was more difficult, by virtue of having just more material to cover. Usmle 99, comlex 85, both taken about one week apart.

 

[SomeDoc]

Given a USMLE Step 1 of 239, should I take USMLE Step 2 as a DO? I am 50/50. I was wondering if PDs appreciate the cojones involved in taking Level 1, Step 1, Level 2, Step 2, and Level 2 PE. That's a lot of tests.

Taking step 2 and step 2 PE are unnecessary. Step 1 is sufficient, and great performance BTW

 

[GUH]

Is it normal to apply to 50 programs?

Small N, but most of the psychiatry-pursuing classmates who I've talked to who applied ACGME either applied to 40+ programs or got so few interviews that the school considers them at high risk of not matching. But we'll see in March how they actually do.

 

[nowaysanjose]

I agree that they should do away with the COMLEX, but it certainly isn't an easier exam. As to foreign graduates, DO schools have higher stats than basically every foreign institution that takes US students, so there is little reason to believe that DOs would have trouble passing the USMLE, particularly considering that many US DO schools have scores similar to US MD schools fifteen or twenty years back (whose students did just fine on the USMLE and in training and are currently the attendings at many of the programs the DOs are applying to these days).

In regard to whether to take the USMLE, we're already at a disadvantage. Taking Step 1 and Step 2 substantially reduces the barriers we have in regard to many programs, so if you can afford it and think you can pass, why wouldn't you take the USMLE?

Our school has really pushed that it's unnecessary, especially with the merger coming up. And most info I've gotten from here keeps saying that the idea that psych is getting competitive is exaggerated, but then I see responses like on this thread with people getting few interviews and I'm not sure what to believe.

 

[Mad Jack]

Small N, but most of the psychiatry-pursuing classmates who I've talked to who applied ACGME either applied to 40+ programs or got so few interviews that the school considers them at high risk of not matching. But we'll see in March how they actually do.

What were their average scores like though, and did they take the USMLE? Because there's a difference between a bunch of 440 COMLEX students with no level 2 applying to 50 programs versus a few people with 220+ USMLE Step 1/2 scores.

 

[Mad Jack]

Our school has really pushed that it's unnecessary, especially with the merger coming up. And most info I've gotten from here keeps saying that the idea that psych is getting competitive is exaggerated, but then I see responses like on this thread with people getting few interviews and I'm not sure what to believe.

Taking the USMLE is unnecessary? That's nonsense. It does nothing but open doors if you can pass.

 

[GUH]

What were their average scores like though, and did they take the USMLE? Because there's a difference between a bunch of 440 COMLEX students with no level 2 applying to 50 programs versus a few people with 220+ USMLE Step 1/2 scores.

Definitely.
No, most of them do not have 220+ USMLE scores and some of them have board failures. If you have 220+ USMLE Step 1 and 2 scores and no red flags and you apply to a mix of programs including middle- and lower-tier community programs, then I couldn't imagine that you would need to apply to as many places.

 

[Mad Jack]

Definitely.
No, most of them do not have 220+ USMLE scores and some of them have board failures. If you have 220+ USMLE Step 1 and 2 scores and no red flags and you apply to a mix of programs including middle- and lower-tier community programs, then I couldn't imagine that you would need to apply to as many places.

Thanks- I was like, damn, I knew it was getting hot, but didn't realize it was that hot!

 

[grapefruit17]

the terms low and mid tier can get confusing though because i feel like its hard to know what tier a program is besides the obvious big name programs. Some programs i really thought would offer me an invite. Others i was shocked offered me an invite. Some programs declined me but took a classmate with way more redflags/lower scores then me. Very hard to predict process imo.

 

[psychattending]

In our program we have no requirement that a person take the USMLEs. I have had enough experience with the COMLEX to be able to interpret the scores. That's really what taking the USMLE will get you -- helping a PD without COMLEX experience interpret your results. I would say the best way to go about things for now is to take Step 1 at a minimum. One might need to take Step 2-CK for some "competitive" schools but I do not know for sure.

 

[JustAGuy]

Unless you're trying to get into top tier places, it's probably enough. I got a lot of upper middle and lower top tier interviews. Ended up matching at my #1.

 

[JustAGuy]

Having taken both, comlex was more difficult, by virtue of having just more material to cover. Usmle 99, comlex 85, both taken about one week apart.

One of my friends got a 250+ and then barely passed COMLEX. It's a lame exam for sure.

 

[Candidate2017]

Our school has really pushed that it's unnecessary, especially with the merger coming up. And most info I've gotten from here keeps saying that the idea that psych is getting competitive is exaggerated, but then I see responses like on this thread with people getting few interviews and I'm not sure what to believe.

Competitiveness varies wildly based on your circumstances and goals. A DO with a 240 Step 1 gunning for MGH, Cornell, UCSF or similar place where everyone has a 240 and published research will find it very competitive. A DO with a 420 Comlex may only get 3 invites from 50 apps but easily match into a solid local program where they auditioned. Matching into psychiatry at a solid program is still relatively uncompetitive for everyone in between.

Read the ACGME Charting Outcomes for Osteopaths report if you need more data and do what you need to do to put yourself at ease.

 

[Mad Jack]

One of my friends got a 250+ and then barely passed COMLEX. It's a lame exam for sure.

We had a 268 USMLE/Failed COMLEX three years ago lol

 

[nexus73]

This is just another opinion, but I'd suggest if you got at least an average score on COMLEX, you might as well take the USMLE so ACGME programs can more easily compare you to MD applicants. If you barely passed COMLEX I'd be worried about failing the USMLE and having to report that on ERAS.

 

[Merovinge]

We had a 268 USMLE/Failed COMLEX three years ago lol

I'm sure outliers happen but on the aggregate DO's percentiles tend to be a bit lower (and I do mean just a bit) on USMLE than COMLEX which is just an inherent consequence of the selection system for MD vs DO. It absolutely makes an application more competitive with competitive USMLE scores not because of the test but because who you are compared to.

As an aside, I think anything DOs can do to make themselves exactly equal to MD's makes great sense. Long gone are the days of substantial differences. We are all playing for the same team now, lets get this show on the road.

 

[Mad Jack]

I'm sure outliers happen but on the aggregate DO's percentiles tend to be a bit lower (and I do mean just a bit) on USMLE than COMLEX which is just an inherent consequence of the selection system for MD vs DO. It absolutely makes an application more competitive with competitive USMLE scores not because of the test but because who you are compared to.

As an aside, I think anything DOs can do to make themselves exactly equal to MD's makes great sense. Long gone are the days of substantial differences. We are all playing for the same team now, lets get this show on the road.

I had a 40 percentile difference between the two in favor of the COMLEX, personally lol.

 

[nowaysanjose]

One of my friends got a 250+ and then barely passed COMLEX. It's a lame exam for sure.

We've heard similar stories^ and stories of 220+ USMLEs who failed COMLEX.

 

[postbacpremed87]

Competitiveness varies wildly based on your circumstances and goals. A DO with a 240 Step 1 gunning for MGH, Cornell, UCSF or similar place where everyone has a 240 and published research will find it very competitive. A DO with a 420 Comlex may only get 3 invites from 50 apps but easily match into a solid local program where they auditioned. Matching into psychiatry at a solid program is still relatively uncompetitive for everyone in between.

Read the ACGME Charting Outcomes for Osteopaths report if you need more data and do what you need to do to put yourself at ease.

....they should be walking into interview season knowing that if they aren't asocial during interviews that they will match SOMEWHERE and become a Psychiatrist

 

[Dharma]

They should really do away with COMLEX and have everyone take USMLE. It seems ridiculous to me that DOs get away with taking easier exams and then are considered "equal" when they complete training and are paid the same also. It would also force DO schools to increase their standards for admission. FMGs should be even angrier because their schools are lower quality in general and yet they have to take the tougher USMLEs.

I don't know. I took both exams and I found the COMLEX to be a complete cluster F***. The USMLE was easier to predict in terms of preparation, while the COMLEX felt like a random crapshoot where I could walk in one day and push 700 but run the risk of <500 the next. That said, I felt that the USMLE required more stamina (but maybe I just cared less about the COMLEX?). Anyhow, completely agree that there should be one exam.

OP, take both exams unless your practice exams in the week or two beforehand indicate likelihood of a low score. FWIW my score was the exact average of the 3 practice exams I took. Prep for the USMLE, then add the green book for OMM and you should be good to go.

 

[LasVagus]

the terms low and mid tier can get confusing though because i feel like its hard to know what tier a program is besides the obvious big name programs. Some programs i really thought would offer me an invite. Others i was shocked offered me an invite. Some programs declined me but took a classmate with way more redflags/lower scores then me. Very hard to predict process imo.

I am a resident at a bottom-of-the-barrel program and I learned something interesting this year: we actually don't invite the most competitive applicants for an interview because we know they'll never end up coming here. It's seen as a waste of time and resources. This might explain some of what you're describing.

 

[NontradCA]

Our school has really pushed that it's unnecessary, especially with the merger coming up. And most info I've gotten from here keeps saying that the idea that psych is getting competitive is exaggerated, but then I see responses like on this thread with people getting few interviews and I'm not sure what to believe.

It seems around here the people saying it's not competitive are attendings, not fresh grads. So there's that.

 

[postbacpremed87]

I don't know. I took both exams and I found the COMLEX to be a complete cluster F***. The USMLE was easier to predict in terms of preparation, while the COMLEX felt like a random crapshoot where I could walk in one day and push 700 but run the risk of <500 the next. That said, I felt that the USMLE required more stamina (but maybe I just cared less about the COMLEX?). Anyhow, completely agree that there should be one exam.

OP, take both exams unless your practice exams in the week or two beforehand indicate likelihood of a low score. FWIW my score was the exact average of the 3 practice exams I took. Prep for the USMLE, then add the green book for OMM and you should be good to go.

I took both and I felt more exhausted after COMLEX. I actually had time to relax my eyes and take long breaks during the USMLE because I went through questions rapidly. The break set up is much more test taker friendly when taking USMLE. I'm still wondering if USMLE Step 2 is worth it. I know we've said discussions about it.