For the exiting 4th years...

[docnotsopc]

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It is absolutely terrifying that some people's egos are so fragile that their automatic response to an opinion/observation based on experience is to immediately turn to personal attacks and name-calling (none of which I will dignify with a response). All I did was suggest that, given my experience applying to residency, there is a ceiling to the reputation of program that a DO would be considered at. Absurdly enough I was attacked by people saying I was wrong AND people saying that what I'm suggesting is so obvious that it does not need repeating.

Anyway it's no skin off my back (pun totally intended) if many of you want to live in a fantasy world during your premed and early med school years. I've simply had some time on my hands because of how chill 4th year is so I thought I'd take a look at these forums and saw that they could use a different perspective because it has certainly become a bit of a bubble.

Most premeds do live in a fantasy world when considering DO. I fell into that group, but as I approach the end of my second year of med school i have already realized the sky is NOT the limit as a DO. Of course we will be limited in certain fields and at certain hospitals. But that doesn't mean there isn't other great opportunities out there.

If what people said is true about you and your match result, Im sorry you didnt get your top choice at a top tier IM program (i dont even know how accurate that statement was from the other person) and I hope it wasn't because you are a DO, but at the same time I wouldn't be surprised either if you were applying to programs out of our league. Im sure you did fine in the match

 

[dozitgetchahi]

As a 4th year DO who just matched at an upper-mid tier allo IM program, I agree that there is some sort of 'glass ceiling' for DOs - but it was very uneven in my experience. I got interviews at several upper-mid tier programs (Minnesota, Iowa, OSU, and others) and matched at one of them. I also got shut down by programs that were definitely not as good as these, and I ultimately matched at a program that (as my number 3) was technically much stronger than the program I ranked #1 (I did that for location reasons). That said, I definitely had the feeling that top-tier programs were closing up to DOs, and I suspect this has been happening for a while. Several very good programs (Emory, Wisconsin, UVa, and many others) each had at least one DO in their rosters, and I didn't get interviews at any of them.

While I don't agree with skinMD's tone, I actually do agree with much of his content. My biggest issue with what he's said regards USMLE scores. After going through the match this year, I definitely feel that USMLE scores are the sine qua non of matching for DOs. Good grades are great, and obviously you should aspire to do as well as possible, but review aPD's posts elsewhere about how most allo PDs don't put a lot of stock in DO clinical grades. Yes, an MD with weak scores may still 'get a pass' if his/her clinical grades are good, but a DO with bad scores is going to be dead in the water at most decent allo academic programs. At this point, there are simply too many other DOs who did well (and, increasingly, too many US MDs) vying for the same spots.

 

[NurWollen]

Something I've been wondering about for a while (and I figure this thread is as good a place as any to bring it up, sorry SLC for further detailing your thread) is this: does it seem like some IM programs are closed to DOs, even compared to specialties that as a whole are more competitive (like maybe anesthesiology or rads)? It seems that there are a lot of programs that have no DOs yet have a significant number of IMGs. Obviously there are a lot more foreign grads altogether than DO grads, and I've always attributed the ratio of IMGs to DOs at such programs to that fact... but I wonder if that really explains it... I mean really, no DOs?

Now, I'll probably get flamed for this anyway, but I'm not saying that foreign is a better route than DO. I'm still confident that being a DO will give me way more opportunities than being an IMG. I fully realize that thousands of foreign grads go will never match, and that those matching into 'top' IM programs might well have years of research experience. I think more than anything, IM has a very traditionalist type culture and that this might limit DOs somewhat.

 

[LovelyBRass]

Something I've been wondering about for a while (and I figure this thread is as good a place as any to bring it up, sorry SLC for further detailing your thread) is this: does it seem like some IM programs are closed to DOs, even compared to specialties that as a whole are more competitive (like maybe anesthesiology or rads)? It seems that there are a lot of programs that have no DOs yet have a significant number of IMGs. Obviously there are a lot more foreign grads altogether than DO grads, and I've always attributed the ratio of IMGs to DOs at such programs to that fact... but I wonder if that really explains it... I mean really, no DOs?

Now, I'll probably get flamed for this anyway, but I'm not saying that foreign is a better route than DO. I'm still confident that being a DO will give me way more opportunities than being an IMG. I fully realize that thousands of foreign grads go will never match, and that those matching into 'top' IM programs might well have years of research experience. I think more than anything, IM has a very traditionalist type culture and that this might limit DOs somewhat.

Anesthesia isn't that competitive, or at least clearly overestimated its competitiveness this year; the field had more unfilled spots than Medicine and Peds combined. Cue flame.

To your point, there's a difference between being a US-IMG and a foreign IMG. Foreign IMGs are some of the best and brightest applicants from their respective countries. US-IMGs are not quite that. The best programs will very commonly have a handful of physicians from foreign countries, but not necessarily Caribbean students or US-IMGs. So make sure you're at least teasing that out first when you look at a program's house officer list.

 

[NurWollen]

Anesthesia isn't that competitive, or at least clearly overestimated its competitiveness this year; the field had more unfilled spots than Medicine and Peds combined. Cue flame.

To your point, there's a difference between being a US-IMG and a foreign IMG. Foreign IMGs are some of the best and brightest applicants from their respective countries. US-IMGs are not quite that. The best programs will very commonly have a handful of physicians from foreign countries, but not necessarily Caribbean students or US-IMGs. So make sure you're at least teasing that out first when you look at a program's house officer list.

Yeah I should have been more clear, I was going to say something along those lines but ended up cutting it out because I'd gone on and on already... but your point is well taken.

 

[cliquesh]

Anesthesia isn't that competitive, or at least clearly overestimated its competitiveness this year; the field had more unfilled spots than Medicine and Peds combined. Cue flame.

To your point, there's a difference between being a US-IMG and a foreign IMG. Foreign IMGs are some of the best and brightest applicants from their respective countries. US-IMGs are not quite that. The best programs will very commonly have a handful of physicians from foreign countries, but not necessarily Caribbean students or US-IMGs. So make sure you're at least teasing that out first when you look at a program's house officer list.

I think internal medicine and peds filled more this year than in the past because of the "all in" rule this year. I'd be surprised if anesthesia's average board scores were below IM's or Peds's this year.

Anyway, Nurwollen, internal medicine, for whatever reason, is not DO friendly at really good places. You should keep in mind, however, that a "good" internal medicine program has board scores around 240, which is out of reach for most DO applicants.

This isn't unique to internal medicine, though. There are only a few fields that consistently accept DOs at top programs. These fields include anesthesia, pm&r, family medicine, pyschiatry (maybe), and, pathology (maybe).

 

[dozitgetchahi]

Something I've been wondering about for a while (and I figure this thread is as good a place as any to bring it up, sorry SLC for further detailing your thread) is this: does it seem like some IM programs are closed to DOs, even compared to specialties that as a whole are more competitive (like maybe anesthesiology or rads)? It seems that there are a lot of programs that have no DOs yet have a significant number of IMGs. Obviously there are a lot more foreign grads altogether than DO grads, and I've always attributed the ratio of IMGs to DOs at such programs to that fact... but I wonder if that really explains it... I mean really, no DOs?

Now, I'll probably get flamed for this anyway, but I'm not saying that foreign is a better route than DO. I'm still confident that being a DO will give me way more opportunities than being an IMG. I fully realize that thousands of foreign grads go will never match, and that those matching into 'top' IM programs might well have years of research experience. I think more than anything, IM has a very traditionalist type culture and that this might limit DOs somewhat.

Most really good IM programs take very few or no FMGs. The occasional FMG that matches at these types of programs usually has a very remarkable CV and/or has done research at the institution for a long period of time. That said, there is the occasional program (Utah comes to mind) that will take even Carib graduates but not DOs. This is utterly bogus IMO, but just remember that there are many very solid programs that will still take a DO for IM. Remember also that numbers will not necessarily get you into a top notch IM program as a DO...I had a step 1 score around 240 and a step 2 score around 250 and still got shut down at a lot of good places. I know of DOs with somewhat higher numbers who got interviews at places like Dartmouth and UAB, but none of these people actually matched at those programs.

IM is unusual in that its spectrum of competitiveness is probably the broadest of any specialty. At the top, you have programs that are extremely competitive and match candidates primarily from top notch US medical schools. At the bottom, you have FMG farms and lousy community progs that will take anyone with a pulse. The really competitive places see no real reason to take a DO who may otherwise be qualified - they have too many equally good candidates from US MD schools. The rare exception (i.e, the DO who supposedly matched at HUP this year) most likely has an inside connection.

 

[235009]

As a 4th year DO who just matched at an upper-mid tier allo IM program, I agree that there is some sort of 'glass ceiling' for DOs - but it was very uneven in my experience. I got interviews at several upper-mid tier programs (Minnesota, Iowa, OSU, and others) and matched at one of them. I also got shut down by programs that were definitely not as good as these, and I ultimately matched at a program that (as my number 3) was technically much stronger than the program I ranked #1 (I did that for location reasons). That said, I definitely had the feeling that top-tier programs were closing up to DOs, and I suspect this has been happening for a while. Several very good programs (Emory, Wisconsin, UVa, and many others) each had at least one DO in their rosters, and I didn't get interviews at any of them.

While I don't agree with skinMD's tone, I actually do agree with much of his content. My biggest issue with what he's said regards USMLE scores. After going through the match this year, I definitely feel that USMLE scores are the sine qua non of matching for DOs. Good grades are great, and obviously you should aspire to do as well as possible, but review aPD's posts elsewhere about how most allo PDs don't put a lot of stock in DO clinical grades. Yes, an MD with weak scores may still 'get a pass' if his/her clinical grades are good, but a DO with bad scores is going to be dead in the water at most decent allo academic programs. At this point, there are simply too many other DOs who did well (and, increasingly, too many US MDs) vying for the same spots.

thanks for posting your perspective on this. It's nice to finally get past the name-calling and get a real discussion going. It makes sense that PDs would put more weight on DO step scores than MDs since it's hard to interpret their clinical grades. Sounds like you're suggesting that DOs should universally take step 2 early then no matter what their step 1 score is?

regarding the broader topic I think it's important that pre-meds embark on this long and extremely costly journey knowing what to expect at the end. the more informed someone is the better. I'm not saying going to DO school is a bad idea but you have to be aware that there are limitations on what you can achieve. Of course there are still many excellent paths available but you will have to work harder to get there than your MD counterparts. I've never been one to sugar-coat my posts regardless of topic but I guess in this case it came off even harsher because people's egos came into play.



anyway, i'm off to practice my OMM which I learned during my osteopathic education that this very astute investigator uncovered from my paltry ~2000 posts:

I know this has probably been asked or revealed before but I REALLY don't feel like digging through all your posts to find out, but skinMD, are you a DO or an MD and are you a medical student or a resident/attending? If you are a med student you sure do seem to believe you know an awful lot about something you've never experienced and it's tiers/whats impressive and if you are a resident or attending then it's really pretty poor form to not at least update you classification so you are not misrepresenting yourself and don't look like "hey, I know everything about something I haven't even done yet" type, if ya know what I mean 😉
As for the DO part... I'm guessing either you are an MD (student) who gets off on coming to the DO forum to try and show some imaginary superiority that you think you have or when you created your screenname you wanted/assumed you were going to get into an MD school and then you were not able to and ended up in a DO program which has made you (as most can see) bitter but stuck with the name. So which is it... DO or MD? Student or resident or attending? Just curious to know the qualifications so we can all base some validity to your comments. 👍

I think a simple question about whether you are an MD or a DO or whether you are an attending/resident/student is a very viable question since you are usually proclaiming full and complete knowledge here. Eventhough you didn't directly answer it, I do understand now that you're a OMS IV (yeah, I got the osteopathic part) so there is SOME validity to your statements but any statement you make about what PDs think about DOs or anything like that or how prestigious a program is comes ONLY from personal experience and opinion... not fact. It can't... you're not at that level yet. That's not condescending, that's just a cold hard truth. Nothing wrong with being knowledgeable but what you come across as is actually bitter, not knowledgeable, and I suspect it's due to the experiences you had when applying this year. Here's a question for you... how do you know that the "ceiling" you faced and the impressions you have, for the most part (and we'll leave the obvious programs that never take DOs out of the mix) were not due to reactions to YOU rather than to DOs in general. As I said, everyone knows there's a solid door in front of some programs that keeps DOs out and that's fine... i don't think we're agruing that... but can you honestly tell me that the question "I wonder if it's me" never popped into your head?

i posted an allopathic school's match list last week to try to throw you off the scent so you wouldn't figure out that i was a self-loathing and bitter DO but obviously nothing gets by you! you're such a genius who's got it all figured out 🙄 ....keep at it, maybe soon you will figure out whether i'm an attending/resident/student (pro tip: look at the thread title and then look down at my signature)

 

[ajh1983]

Started noticing a trend in SkinMD posts:
- Unnecessarily negative and specifically anti-DO

So let me ask you this oh holy SkinMD of the Allopathic world, do you go to a top MD school? You sure act like it. More importantly, why do you take the time to post on Osteopathic forums?

yes, the trend is almost impossible not to notice, even for someone who rarely reads sdn anymore. GO OUTSIDE. JUST STOP.

 

[malformation]

thanks for posting your perspective on this. It's nice to finally get past the name-calling and get a real discussion going. It makes sense that PDs would put more weight on DO step scores than MDs since it's hard to interpret their clinical grades. Sounds like you're suggesting that DOs should universally take step 2 early then no matter what their step 1 score is?

regarding the broader topic I think it's important that pre-meds embark on this long and extremely costly journey knowing what to expect at the end. the more informed someone is the better. I'm not saying going to DO school is a bad idea but you have to be aware that there are limitations on what you can achieve. Of course there are still many excellent paths available but you will have to work harder to get there than your MD counterparts. I've never been one to sugar-coat my posts regardless of topic but I guess in this case it came off even harsher because people's egos came into play.

Again, MD=/MD=/MD; There are plenty of posts on IM forums from allo students about how their "school name/rank" "prevented them" from getting interviews or match at top places. Going to a top allo school will obviously help. There is very little difference in outcomes (at least for IM) between a bottom tiered allo school and an established osteo school (this is a more appropriate comparison as their entering student profile is fairly similar). Assuming equal grades and CV. Now this is NOT to say that the match list is identical, but to say that equal performance/CV will essentially get you to the same place from a bottom tiered allo and an established DO school, especially in IM. Yes, there is always that guy/gal in the class that matches to MGH from a bottom tiered allo school but that's not the rule and it's not for the average student (i.e. 80+% of the class).

 

[235009]

Again, MD=/MD=/MD; There are plenty of posts on IM forums from allo students about how their "school name/rank" "prevented them" from getting interviews or match at top places. Going to a top allo school will obviously help. There is very little difference in outcomes (at least for IM) between a bottom tiered allo school and an established osteo school (this is a more appropriate comparison as their entering student profile is fairly similar). Assuming equal grades and CV. Now this is NOT to say that the match list is identical, but to say that equal performance/CV will essentially get you to the same place from a bottom tiered allo and an established DO school, especially in IM. Yes, there is always that guy/gal in the class that matches to MGH from a bottom tiered allo school but that's not the rule and it's not for the average student (i.e. 80+% of the class).

i definitely agree that school reputation plays a big role. i've said it multiple times in the IM forum and comparison of the match lists of top vs. low-tier MD schools makes this very clear.

i disagree though regarding the comparison of low-tier allo schools and established DO schools. first of all, as you pointed out, there is no ceiling at the low tier allo school which means that the top students (250+ step 1, top of the class +/- AOA) has the opportunity to match at those elite IM programs (MGH, columbia, B&W, UCSF, etc) whereas the top DO candidate (250+ step 1, 250+ step 2, #1 in the class) would be matching at certain mid-tier programs that consider DOs, many of which have been named earlier. The biggest difference i think is in the more average candidates. Those candidates at the low-tier MD program would be matching at the same places as the top DO candidate as well as a whole bunch of other programs available to them that are not DO friendly. On the other hand average DO candidates tend to get relegated to community programs as evidenced by the match lists that have been posted. So I would argue that in most cases the DO candidate would have to work a lot harder and get much better scores to have opportunities that are attainable for an MD from a low-tier school with lower stats.

once again, i'm glad we can get a meaningful and respectful discussion going despite the fact that some pre-meds still insist on derailing this thread with insults and name-calling.

 

[235009]

Haha... it's comical to me that you actually think I wasted the time to look at ANY of your posts outside this thread... not worth it to me. Figuring you out is simple (and has been done). It's simply psychology and could be summed up in a few choice words but unfortunately on this forum they would only come across as ***** ** ****. 🙂 The funny part is that you actually thought I was "asking" like it was in question... definitely not. I was wanting you to ADMIT your self loathing (as you finally have, lol) and admit that the reason your perception is what it is comes down to your personal experiences... and thats all. And the fact that we've (or I guess I should correct and say YOU'VE) stooped to the "oh, look at my post count" routine... yeah, . It is fairly obvious you have already answered the "Hmm... I wonder if it's me" question in your mind that I posed for you before and you believe the answer is no. It's OK... there is therapy for denial that deep. GL to ya

wait....do u still think i'm a DO?

or maybe

 

[as1212559]

once again, i'm glad we can get a meaningful and respectful discussion going despite the fact that some pre-meds still insist on derailing this thread with insults and name-calling.

Derailing? Because it is simply impossible to acknowledge, all in one post, that the information in your posts is on point but your tone makes us all envision the same smug little grin on your face?












































































wait I just did it...wut?

 

[docnotsopc]

once again, i'm glad we can get a meaningful and respectful discussion going despite the fact that some pre-meds still insist on derailing this thread with insults and name-calling.

What do you expect? This is SDN where apparently those with the most knowledge are pre-meds (in their eyes)

When you say something they disagree with, you get called a troll or they claim they shadowed a doctor who knows a doctor whos daughter is a DO who matched Plastics at Harvard back in 1984 so its possible for DOs to match into anything.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

thanks for posting your perspective on this. It's nice to finally get past the name-calling and get a real discussion going. It makes sense that PDs would put more weight on DO step scores than MDs since it's hard to interpret their clinical grades. Sounds like you're suggesting that DOs should universally take step 2 early then no matter what their step 1 score is?

Yes, I think taking step 2 early is critical. Step 2 is a much more 'crushable' test than step 1, and allo PDs will want to see the results. I regularly got comments about my scores on the interview trail, and at a few interviews it was made clear that I wouldn't be sitting there had I not had a step 2 score in hand. Doing a sub-i at an allo institution early on (and getting a letter) is also very important. At several competitive programs, I was asked in-depth questions about what my 3rd year rotations and sub-i had been like...clearly the PDs were concerned about the quality of osteopathic rotations, and frankly I think I would not have been taken seriously had I not had a sub-I grade (with letter) to show off.

 

[NurWollen]

I think internal medicine and peds filled more this year than in the past because of the "all in" rule this year. I'd be surprised if anesthesia's average board scores were below IM's or Peds's this year.

Anyway, Nurwollen, internal medicine, for whatever reason, is not DO friendly at really good places. You should keep in mind, however, that a "good" internal medicine program has board scores around 240, which is out of reach for most DO applicants.

This isn't unique to internal medicine, though. There are only a few fields that consistently accept DOs at top programs. These fields include anesthesia, pm&r, family medicine, pyschiatry (maybe), and, pathology (maybe).

Pretty what I had been suspecting.

Most really good IM programs take very few or no FMGs. The occasional FMG that matches at these types of programs usually has a very remarkable CV and/or has done research at the institution for a long period of time. That said, there is the occasional program (Utah comes to mind) that will take even Carib graduates but not DOs. This is utterly bogus IMO, but just remember that there are many very solid programs that will still take a DO for IM. Remember also that numbers will not necessarily get you into a top notch IM program as a DO...I had a step 1 score around 240 and a step 2 score around 250 and still got shut down at a lot of good places. I know of DOs with somewhat higher numbers who got interviews at places like Dartmouth and UAB, but none of these people actually matched at those programs.

IM is unusual in that its spectrum of competitiveness is probably the broadest of any specialty. At the top, you have programs that are extremely competitive and match candidates primarily from top notch US medical schools. At the bottom, you have FMG farms and lousy community progs that will take anyone with a pulse. The really competitive places see no real reason to take a DO who may otherwise be qualified - they have too many equally good candidates from US MD schools. The rare exception (i.e, the DO who supposedly matched at HUP this year) most likely has an inside connection.

Yeah that bolded part is what really gets me, in fact Utah is the exact place I was thinking of. It sucks, because I would love to live in Utah. I wonder what their deal is. They don't even take a lot of their own grads it seems.

Oh well, like you said, their are plenty of very solid IM programs that take plenty of DOs, if I even am interested in IM two or three years from now when I need to be deciding.

 

[abolt18]

What do you expect? This is SDN where apparently those with the most knowledge are pre-meds (in their eyes)

When you say something they disagree with, you get called a troll or they claim they shadowed a doctor who knows a doctor whos daughter is a DO who matched Plastics at Harvard back in 1984 so its possible for DOs to match into anything.

J'aime!

 

[Didierdrogba]

What is the big deal of tiers when it comes to IM residencies in terms of career advancement? Do non-top tier programs severely limit chances of landing a fellowship?

 

[235009]

LOL... At this point your avatar perfectly fits you... an irritating little tool. You've proven my point... your desire to completely avoid a direct question shows your insecurity and your condescending attitude when you are neither better than nor in any position to judge anyone or anything speaks volumes. Keep telling yourself that the reason you aren't where you want to be has nothing to do with your personality or your attitude... you're the only one you're fooling.

 

[LovelyBRass]

 

[malformation]

i definitely agree that school reputation plays a big role. i've said it multiple times in the IM forum and comparison of the match lists of top vs. low-tier MD schools makes this very clear.

i disagree though regarding the comparison of low-tier allo schools and established DO schools. first of all, as you pointed out, there is no ceiling at the low tier allo school which means that the top students (250+ step 1, top of the class +/- AOA) has the opportunity to match at those elite IM programs (MGH, columbia, B&W, UCSF, etc) whereas the top DO candidate (250+ step 1, 250+ step 2, #1 in the class) would be matching at certain mid-tier programs that consider DOs, many of which have been named earlier. The biggest difference i think is in the more average candidates. Those candidates at the low-tier MD program would be matching at the same places as the top DO candidate as well as a whole bunch of other programs available to them that are not DO friendly. On the other hand average DO candidates tend to get relegated to community programs as evidenced by the match lists that have been posted. So I would argue that in most cases the DO candidate would have to work a lot harder and get much better scores to have opportunities that are attainable for an MD from a low-tier school with lower stats.

once again, i'm glad we can get a meaningful and respectful discussion going despite the fact that some pre-meds still insist on derailing this thread with insults and name-calling.

First of all you shouldn't compare an "average" student from an established DO school to an "average" student from bottom tier allo school. There are very different mentalities at those two types of schools. You should compare students that have similar scores/CV from those types of schools.

Secondly, although the super stellar student from bottom tier allo school has a theoretical chance of matching to one of the big 7, the chance is so slim (as evident from those institutions' match lists) that in reality, for the most part is nonexistent, like the DO grad.

Thirdly, you don't go from MGH/B&W/Columbia/etc (i.e. big 7) down to mid-tier places; there is a whole tier (called the top tier) of about 20+ excellent places, a good number of which, if not most, take DOs; Also, you bring me a DO grad from an established DO school w/ 250+/250+/#1 ranked, with good evals and no red flags, I guarantee a top tier match (again not big 7). And if they haven't been able to do it themselves or they are in doubt, I'll be glad to help them during the next match season for a nominal fee (Mods: That was a joke, I'm not advertising any services).

Fourthly, short of the big 7 and certain top tier programs (which are also biased against bottom tier allo programs), every other IM programs is "DO friendly" except some FMG/IMG factories in certain metropolitans that anyone who knows anything about hospitals has no desire to be within 250ft of such places.

Finally, as your senior (and a virtual colleague), I strongly recommend that you enjoy the last few months of med school with hanging out w/ friends, exercising and heck even drinking (in moderation and only if over 21, of course), instead of coming here and putting a whole profession down and making claims about things that you know very little about (i.e. DOs and the match).

 

[235009]

Secondly, although the super stellar student from bottom tier allo school has a theoretical chance of matching to one of the big 7, the chance is so slim (as evident from those institutions' match lists) that in reality, for the most part is nonexistent, like the DO grad.

Thirdly, you don't go from MGH/B&W/Columbia/etc (i.e. big 7) down to mid-tier places; there is a whole tier (called the top tier) of about 20+ excellent places, a good number of which, if not most, take DOs; Also, you bring me a DO grad from an established DO school w/ 250+/250+/#1 ranked, with good evals and no red flags, I guarantee a top tier match (again not big 7). And if they haven't been able to do it themselves or they are in doubt, I'll be glad to help them during the next match season for a nominal fee (Mods: That was a joke, I'm not advertising any services).

Fourthly, short of the big 7 and certain top tier programs (which are also biased against bottom tier allo programs), every other IM programs is "DO friendly" except some FMG/IMG factories in certain metropolitans that anyone who knows anything about hospitals has no desire to be within 250ft of such places.

Finally, as your senior (and a virtual colleague), I strongly recommend that you enjoy the last few months of med school with hanging out w/ friends, exercising and heck even drinking (in moderation and only if over 21, of course), instead of coming here and putting a whole profession down and making claims about things that you know very little about (i.e. DOs and the match).

i feel like we're talking past each other a bit without being a bit specific.

1. not really sure what you mean by low-tier allo school but at my school that is ranked outside the top 50 we just matched 2 at MGH this year. so while i agree that there is a very strong bias toward top-tier schools at these elite programs I definitely think you're exaggerating a bit to try and equate these lower tier schools with DO schools.

2. i'm wondering which programs you consider "top tier" and which of those take DOs. I feel like you're stretching this definition a bit because i doubt i would find a single DO in what i consider the top 27 IM programs.

As for your advice, i'm having a blast fourth year and still have way too much time on my hands (doesn't help that my med school's location is quite boring) ....so thanks for your concern but trust me there's plenty of time enjoy life and spend half an hr posting on SDN. it should be more shocking when people who have actual responsibilities and an 80 hour per week job are all over SDN because their free time should be precious.

 

[malformation]

i feel like we're talking past each other a bit without being a bit specific.

1. not really sure what you mean by low-tier allo school but at my school that is ranked outside the top 50 we just matched 2 at MGH this year. so while i agree that there is a very strong bias toward top-tier schools at these elite programs I definitely think you're exaggerating a bit to try and equate these lower tier schools with DO schools.

2. i'm wondering which programs you consider "top tier" and which of those take DOs. I feel like you're stretching this definition a bit because i doubt i would find a single DO in what i consider the top 27 IM programs.

As for your advice, i'm having a blast fourth year and still have way too much time on my hands (doesn't help that my med school's location is quite boring) ....so thanks for your concern but trust me there's plenty of time enjoy life and spend half an hr posting on SDN. it should be more shocking when people who have actual responsibilities and an 80 hour per week job are all over SDN because their free time should be precious.

1. I didn't say low-tier allo, I consistently said bottom tier allo (i.e. bottom 25 schools).

2. You go check out the match list for the top 27 IM programs (by anyone's definition), I'll guarantee you, you will find a few DOs.

3. I'm glad you are having fun. I wouldn't call <15 posts in over 2 years, "all over SDN", but apparently we have different definitions for everything.

 

[235009]

1. I didn't say low-tier allo, I consistently said bottom tier allo (i.e. bottom 25 schools).

2. You go check out the match list for the top 27 IM programs (by anyone's definition), I'll guarantee you, you will find a few DOs.

3. I'm glad you are having fun. I wouldn't call <15 posts in over 2 years, "all over SDN", but apparently we have different definitions for everything.

wasn't talking about u. just in general

anyway since you're not gonna get specific with any examples of DOs at any top tier programs then i guess this discussion is over... i'm very amenable to changing my opinion and am trying to understand this process more but the lack of any evidence isn't helping

 

[dozitgetchahi]

I'm currently rotating at a site where MD students from a low-tier school (namely NEOCOM) rotate alongside DO students from a few other schools. The amount of time the NEOCOM students spend griping about their program really surprised me. At one point, I was like guys...at least you're US MDs, right? How bad can it be? But some of them really seem to feel that they're at a real disadvantage vs students from higher-ranked MD schools, and they voiced a lot of the same criticisms we DO students do about our programs. It was eye-opening, to say the least.

(I still don't think these students are really 'disadvantaged' by going to a low-tier MD school - many doors that are deadbolted shut for DOs are still openable for these people if they invest the effort.)

 

[as1212559]

I'm currently rotating at a site where MD students from a low-tier school (namely NEOCOM) rotate alongside DO students from a few other schools. The amount of time the NEOCOM students spend griping about their program really surprised me. At one point, I was like guys...at least you're US MDs, right? How bad can it be? But some of them really seem to feel that they're at a real disadvantage vs students from higher-ranked MD schools, and they voiced a lot of the same criticisms we DO students do about our programs. It was eye-opening, to say the least.

(I still don't think these students are really 'disadvantaged' by going to a low-tier MD school - many doors that are deadbolted shut for DOs are still openable for these people if they invest the effort.)

NEOCOM is an interesting program. They pull the vast majority of their students from BS linkage programs iirc.

 

[Dr Dazzle]

If fellowship is your goal, aim for an acgme university program ... The highest tier that you can get.

Sure, there are residents from community hospital programs throughout the country who match into fellowships, but from hearing from my friends who were in university affiliated community hospital programs, they had to fight an uphill battle. They had fewer interview invites than my classmates at university programs. This is due to a few factors ... Academic prestige, research opportunities, "big name" LOR from faculty members who are well known in the academic circle, etc.

Now there are exceptions, such as programs who are technically "community hospital" but with very strong academic affiliation and records of having their residents match into fellowships. And there are a few community hospitals with their own in house fellowship programs that will take one of their own from residency.


I would avoid AOA IM residencies. Most are not in large tertiary centers. There are some AOA IM programs who are based in small hospitals (where some larger ACGME IM programs will have more residents than the total number of beds in these smaller hospitals). And there are fewer AOA fellowships in cards, Pulm, GI, renal, etc than the acgme programs. And while it is possible to do an AOA residency and Acgme fellowship (you won't be board eligible for ABIM boards, will have to take AOBIM boards), most PDs will not know that it is possible.

And with the purposed merger ... It won't make a difference. If you graduate from a no name 100 bed middle of nowhere hospital IM program (that used to be AOA but now ACGME thanks to the merger), you will still be at a huge disadvantage compare to candidates from university programs (with research, publications, regional/national conference presentations, LORs from leaders in the field, etc)

If you get into IM ACGME residency at a university program as a DO, are you equivalent to MDs when applying to fellowships? Or is there DO bias at that point as well?

 

[The kitchen sink]

If you get into IM ACGME residency at a university program as a DO, are you equivalent to MDs when applying to fellowships? Or is there DO bias at that point as well?

good question, anyone?

 

[LovelyBRass]

If you get into IM ACGME residency at a university program as a DO, are you equivalent to MDs when applying to fellowships? Or is there DO bias at that point as well?

I would wager that you're on even footing with the rest of your MD colleagues at your residency.

 

[bajastapler]

Started noticing a trend in SkinMD posts:
- Unnecessarily negative and specifically anti-DO

So let me ask you this oh holy SkinMD of the Allopathic world, do you go to a top MD school? You sure act like it. More importantly, why do you take the time to post on Osteopathic forums?

B/c he's obviously MedPR, but this time he has learned from his mistakes. He has learned from technology. He has been made better than he was. Better...stronger...faster.

 

[kafa11]

wasn't talking about u. just in general

anyway since you're not gonna get specific with any examples of DOs at any top tier programs then i guess this discussion is over... i'm very amenable to changing my opinion and am trying to understand this process more but the lack of any evidence isn't helping

I matched at HUP this year. DO. No connections. Just rotated there. Where are you doing your residency again?

 

[NurWollen]

B/c he's obviously MedPR, but this time he has learned from his mistakes. He has learned from technology. He has been made better than he was. Better...stronger...faster.

Lol! Where oh where is MedPR?

 

[235009]

I matched at HUP this year. DO. No connections. Just rotated there. Where are you doing your residency again?

congrats that's an awesome match

by connections i didn't mean your parent is the PD ...rotating there and making connections counts, so yes, you did have connections you weren't just some random DO who applied

Also, not really sure why your post would be titled "shut up" (other than just pure immaturity) when you aren't actually refuting my main argument. I'm saying that ACGME programs are wary of DOs because of poor clinical training. you did rotations at top MD schools like hopkins and penn which would, in addition to helping you make connections, make programs more comfortable with your clinical skills since you were evaluated by educators they trust.

it's interesting to finally see evidence that some top IM programs will consider a DO with a proven track record and shows me that it isn't just "bias" at these programs but true concern about clinical training since they gave you consideration once you proved that your clinical training was up to par.

as for your second question, i'd rather retain the last shred of anonymity so i won't mention my match ....you're obviously just asking to see whose e-peen is bigger (again, pure immaturity). this isn't about me at all so it's completely irrelevant otherwise.

 

[SLC]

&#8230;by connections i didn't mean your parent is the PD ...rotating there and making connections counts, so yes, you did have connections you weren't just some random DO who applied...

you're right, it doesn't matter...first of all i won't believe it until it's on their website and second, if it is true, we don't know if this person had some insane connections (probably did)

such a typical SDN post ....pointing out the extremely rare exception when someone's trying to give solid generalizable advice based on experience

Hmm...

Sorry that you got outmatched by a DO. I also find it funny that you stated very explicitly that as a DO, the ceiling in IM is mid-tier.

Guess HUP is mid tier now that they took a DO eh? That or a simple audition rotation qualifies as "insane connections"

So which is it?

 

[Dr Dazzle]

Hmm...

Sorry that you got outmatched by a DO. I also find it funny that you stated very explicitly that as a DO, the ceiling in IM is mid-tier.

Guess HUP is mid tier now that they took a DO eh?

Sorry, what's HUP?

 

[sylvanthus]

lol

 

[SLC]

Sorry, what's HUP?

Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania.

 

[235009]

Hmm...

Sorry that you got outmatched by a DO. I also find it funny that you stated very explicitly that as a DO, the ceiling in IM is mid-tier.

Guess HUP is mid tier now that they took a DO eh? That or a simple audition rotation qualifies as "insane connections"

So which is it?

outmatched? it's not a competition. he worked extremely hard (certainly much harder than I did) and was able to achieve something that is extraordinarily improbable. LOR from a hopkins attending and a successful audition rotation are pretty solid connections. also "simple audition rotation" ....you make it sound like this guy just had to show up for a week of lecture.

dude, believe what you want. I get it, you don't want to believe that you're already at a disadvantage. you laugh at my generalizations that apply to 98% of DOs and keep clinging to the exceptional 2%.

EDIT: didn't realize you were the one who actually started this thread. I hope the point got through that you should probably do an audition rotation at your #1 in order to increase your chances. i still stand by what i said in the beginning but would tweak it by saying that mid tier is typically the highest you can match to. from another one of your posts it sounds like you want to go to a program that is in that tier so i'm not sure why you're being so vitriolic and illogical.

 

[SLC]

EDIT: didn't realize you were the one who actually started this thread. I hope the point got through that you should probably do an audition rotation at your #1 in order to increase your chances. i still stand by what i said in the beginning but would tweak it by saying that mid tier is typically the highest you can match to. from another one of your posts it sounds like you want to go to a program that is in that tier so i'm not sure why you're being so vitriolic and illogical.

Nice to see that you're willing to acknowledge that your original point needs modification. Nobody, including myself is claiming that DO's (or most all MD's) match into top ranked programs regularly, but it does happen. I knew that much a long time ago. I've seen it happen too many times for me to take anyone who dismisses it seriously.

You're right, I'd like to match into what is probably a mid-tier program, maybe it's a mid-low tier program, I don't know. I do know it's in a place I'd like to live, and that it has all fellowships in-house. I really don't care where it is ranked because it's where I want to train regardless and I know I'd get good experience there.

If I come off as vitriolic and illogical, it's probably because your posts are so arrogant and poorly stated that vitriol taints the responses that comes out.

 

[DrBumblebee]

B/c he's obviously MedPR, but this time he has learned from his mistakes. He has learned from technology. He has been made better than he was. Better...stronger...faster.

Wow, skinMD = MedPR ?!

He/she/they has/have almost reached to 2,000 posts.

 

[NeurologyDO]

Get good USMLE scores, do away rotations at the programs you are interested in, and get strong recommendation letters from IM doctors, preferably from the programs in which you are most interested.

I honestly wouldn't stress research too much. It looks nice but I'm not convinced the effort it takes is worth the small advantage. Lots of people do research, so it doesn't make you really stand out in any way if you have it.

Think of ways to stand out. I dunno, do mission trips, take on leadership roles, be active in your state medical association. Also start thinking about your personal statement! Your personal statement really needs to stand out, it will be there first impression of you and can determine whether or not they will invite you for an interview 🙂

Edit: I saw a statement about how a DO can only aspire to match to a "mid-tier" program at best. This is BS 🙂 (based on knowing where my classmates matched)

 

[sylvanthus]

What is the big deal of tiers when it comes to IM residencies in terms of career advancement? Do non-top tier programs severely limit chances of landing a fellowship?

I think the tiers are overdone. I don't even know what tier my program is and they have nearly every fellowship you could possibly need.

 

[235009]

The ONLY person harping about or concerned with "tiers" here is skinMD... and I think we've established how valid his/her opinion is. What I don't understand is how someone (skinMD again) can claim to know soooo much about "what a program thinks" when they are only a medical student. Sounds to me like someone who thinks their opinion is fact and who believes their organizational status of tiers means anything to anyone besides him. If you have a program that you like, has the fellowships/opportunities that you want, and that you fit in with then that it top tier... for you. Nobody else's opinion matters and the only people that are truly concerned with arbitrary tiers or levels of prestige of a program are people who are either full of themselves or who have little man syndrome. Go where you feel best and let people like those have their little "party of one" celebrations all by themselves. (BTW, not directed at you sylvanthus, just that your post hit on a point that should have been driven home long before now).

Look at the IM forum. multiple threads and lots of talk about it there. While program reputation does have a significant amount of subjectivity, there is some consensus regarding where programs generally fall (at least for IM). using the term "tier" is just an easy and common way of expressing it.

Just like people who get into med school come on here and share invaluable experience about applying and interviewing I am also sharing my experiences and observations. besides look at the thread title! ....the OP queried the exiting 4th years and as an exiting 4th year i gave my opinion.

At the end of the match you get A LOT of data to work with. You see your own school's match lists and know most of the people on there personally, you have an idea of their academic abilities and know where they interviewed, what they ranked and how they fared (since these topics found their way into every conversation for the past 6 months). You also meet a number of people at interviews and aways and talk to them about their experiences as well. Information that is extremely valuable because it is put in context. Looking at a match list you don't know if the matches are due to preference or if someone matched at their #1 vs #8.

To answer your question of "who cares about [program reputation]?": fellowship programs and your future employers (particularly if you want to do academics). where you went to college matters for med school admissions, where you went to med school matters for residency apps and where you do residency matters for fellowship or job search. i know these aren't popular statements on SDN because people get really defensive and don't want to believe it because it bruises their ego but it's absolutely true. i've been on both sides of this and institutional reputation always gives you a significant leg up!

as i told the other guy...believe what you want

 

[DrBumblebee]

The ONLY person harping about or concerned with "tiers" here is skinMD... and I think we've established how valid his/her opinion is. What I don't understand is how someone (skinMD again) can claim to know soooo much about "what a program thinks" when they are only a medical student. Sounds to me like someone who thinks their opinion is fact and who believes their organizational status of tiers means anything to anyone besides him. If you have a program that you like, has the fellowships/opportunities that you want, and that you fit in with then that it top tier... for you. Nobody else's opinion matters and the only people that are truly concerned with arbitrary tiers or levels of prestige of a program are people who are either full of themselves or who have little man syndrome. Go where you feel best and let people like those have their little "party of one" celebrations all by themselves. (BTW, not directed at you sylvanthus, just that your post hit on a point that should have been driven home long before now).

Don't you worry too much about that. Let me give you a kind advice: if SkinMD = MedPR (which was banned from SDN), it's so natural to expect such highly comments about every aspect of medical school and residency that you, as a medical school student, feel itchy when reading.

Biography: MedPR was a username that made about 20,000 posts in a couple of months 😱. It was said that MedPR was a pre-med that just got an MD acceptance by URM status from somewhere although was gonna kill for a seat at a particular DO school in MO. It was a valid rumor on SDN that MedPR username was used, instead, by a group of people that wanted to manipulate the undecided med school applicants to switch gears from US-DO schools to Caribbean schools by always being the first responder to any DO related post (good or bad), and consistently belittling the DO schools and the life after graduating from a DO school with his virtual gang on SDN.

One of the above posters has written that SkinMD = MedPR, which sounds about right: SkinMD has also accumulated about 2,000 posts in a few months, which are almost always about belittling the DO schools, arguing with DO students, always firing the "tier" concept in GME, and consistently writing about that life is gonna be a total misery after graduating from a DO school. Now, he/she/they tell that he/she/they is/are at 4th year in an MD school. I wonder why a regular student at an MD school hangs so much at any DO related thread on SDN.

 

[235009]

Don't you worry too much about that. Let me give you a kind advice: if SkinMD = MedPR (which was banned from SDN), it's so natural to expect such highly comments about every aspect of medical school and residency that you, as a medical school student, feel itchy when reading.

Biography: MedPR was a username that made about 20,000 posts in a couple of months 😱. It was said that MedPR was a pre-med that just got an MD acceptance by URM status from somewhere although was gonna kill for a seat at a particular DO school in MO. It was a valid rumor on SDN that MedPR username was used, instead, by a group of people that wanted to manipulate the undecided med school applicants to switch gears from US-DO schools to Caribbean schools by always being the first responder to any DO related post (good or bad), and consistently belittling the DO schools and the life after graduating from a DO school with his virtual gang on SDN.

One of the above posters has written that SkinMD = MedPR, which sounds about right: SkinMD has also accumulated about 2,000 posts in a few months, which are almost always about belittling the DO schools, arguing with DO students, always firing the "tier" concept in GME, and consistently writing about that life is gonna be a total misery after graduating from a DO school. Now, he/she/they tell that he/she/they is/are at 4th year in an MD school. I wonder why a regular student at an MD school hangs so much at any DO related thread on SDN.

dude ...seriously stop embarassing yourself. it took you a week to figure out whether i was an MD or a DO (though i'm still not sure whether you finally got it right) and your ego is obviously extremely fragile because you're willing to believe anything so you don't actually have to consider the substance of what i'm saying.

there are plenty of senior DO students basically agreeing with what i've said here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=995262 ...maybe you should go set them straight with your infinite pre-med knowledge and when all else fails accuse them of being MedPR lol. i see someone who applied to neurology (an extremely non-competitive specialty) has already started accusing people of being "bitter"

as for the most ridiculous part of your delusional post.....

SkinMD has also accumulated about 2,000 posts in a few months, which are almost always about belittling the DO schools, arguing with DO students, always firing the "tier" concept in GME, and consistently writing about that life is gonna be a total misery after graduating from a DO school.

i've been around for FIVE YEARS! you've already demonstrated you're not very adept at using this forum but this one shouldn't have been that hard to figure out. it says the date i joined right under my avatar!

 

[SLC]

&#8230;Edit: I saw a statement about how a DO can only aspire to match to a "mid-tier" program at best. This is BS 🙂 (based on knowing where my classmates matched)

I should point out why this is true (in SkinMD's mind). See SkinMD regularly makes comments about how you can judge competitiveness and "prestige" (whatever that means) by how many DO's are in a program. He also thinks that DO's have a finite ceiling of "mid-tier" residency match ability.

It's a natural extension of that logic to thereby determine that if a "top tier" residency program accepts a DO, they instantly relegate themselves to "mid-tier" status.

There's no point in arguing it with him, he refuses to acknowledge his error whenever anyone calls him on the mat for his BS. It's best to just let him fade away.

 

[calvinhobbes]

i feel like we're talking past each other a bit without being a bit specific.

1. not really sure what you mean by low-tier allo school but at my school that is ranked outside the top 50 we just matched 2 at MGH this year. so while i agree that there is a very strong bias toward top-tier schools at these elite programs I definitely think you're exaggerating a bit to try and equate these lower tier schools with DO schools.

2. i'm wondering which programs you consider "top tier" and which of those take DOs. I feel like you're stretching this definition a bit because i doubt i would find a single DO in what i consider the top 27 IM programs.

As for your advice, i'm having a blast fourth year and still have way too much time on my hands (doesn't help that my med school's location is quite boring) ....so thanks for your concern but trust me there's plenty of time enjoy life and spend half an hr posting on SDN. it should be more shocking when people who have actual responsibilities and an 80 hour per week job are all over SDN because their free time should be precious.

skinMD, I thought there was only one match to MGH from Stony Brook-- the IM match to MGH--the rest were one anesthesia match to Brigham and one psych to Harvard (don't know which hospital though, was it MGH?).

 

[235009]

skinMD, I thought there was only one match to MGH from Stony Brook-- the IM match to MGH--the rest were one anesthesia match to Brigham and one psych to Harvard (don't know which hospital though, was it MGH?).

There are two MGH IM matches. One is categorical and the other is primary care.

 

[deTcort]

Just stumbled upon this thread because I saw it was getting a lot of activity on the main page. Stony Brook... I know a couple of 4th years there and I will ask them if they have an idea of who skinMD is. My curiosity has been piqued.

 

[calvinhobbes]

There are two MGH IM matches. One is categorical and the other is primary care.

Wow that's great, a professor told me no one from SBU had ever matched to MGH for IM before, but two is really cool. Question: did you mean preliminary for the other match? (what is a primary care match as opposed to categorical?) Thanks a lot for your insight.