For those that think doctors are overpayed

[notdeadyet]

There are 5 threads about money on pre-allo. Is this the time of the year where people realize this S**t actually costs big time $$?

Yep. I think folks fixate so much on getting in to medical school that they don't realize it's an investment and you have to pay for it.

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[SupergreenMnM]

Yeah, doctors are horribly off financially. I am always lending my doctor friends money. You ever see the old beat up cars they all drive?

Someone hasn't seen Becker

This thread is like a poster child for why all medical schools should have at least one good business/pfinance class.

 

[badasshairday]

I am getting so confused. They really should have one finance class in med school.

I'm just going to live with my mama and pay off my loans right away.

 

[lost101]

This is a great thread for discussion, but don't ignore the simple principles of finance. Invest your money/time in a way so as to maximize your after tax rate of return.

Some notes on previous posts. The estimate of $200,000 in not really that controversial (per year Stafford unsubsidized max $32,000, subsidized $8,500) so ~$160,000 ignoring accumulated interest while in school (~40,000). Realize that few people receive substantial scholarships and many schools do not have a lot of money for low interest loans (most donations go to scholarships not loan programs). I agree averages suck for these kinds of discussions, but the fact that the Stafford loans are available for this much money indicates that those who do not have other financial support will often accumulate this level of debt. If you extend it…people will borrow it, ask any credit card company. Regardless of what estimate you want to use the following discussion is the same.

Most medical debt is at a 6.8% rate which is an actual rate of 7.02% per year. I hope you are great at investing because it is not easy to earn 7% a year net on an investment portfolio after taxes… The DJI average rate of return per year is between 8-10% depending on how far back you go. This is kind or risky so if you diversify with some ibonds etc 7% is not so easy.

There are many things to consider when you decide you want to be a physician and here is a very pessimistic look (unfortunately for many this is actually a realistic look). During residency your income will be between $8-$14 per hour (based on avg hrs worked to avg salary AMA data). You will be working more hours than most other people in the country, especially with your level of education. Because you salary is in the 40-50 range and your annual loan payments will be around $27,619 (if you maxed Stafford), you will either have to opt for an alternative repayment plan (30 yr, increasing payment plan, etc) or defer payments and enjoy all of that compounding. So, now you have finished residency and what are you earning? Not what you think you should be making recalling that Congress has not addressed Medicare overspending nor do they plan to any time soon. Don't forget you will need to build a practice and if you were married during your training hopefully you will not have any alimony (residents and marriage not the best combo unfortunately). Assuming you started school at 22ish you are close to 30 with no retirement savings and maybe a family with kids starting school. Have you thought about college saving, grad school savings for your children…oh and don’t forget Med School tuitions have been rising at close to 5% a year, way above inflation.

As for taxes don’t forget that your deduction for educational loan interest is only $2,500 a year and educational loans are exempt from bankruptcy. This deduction is as someone posted dependent of your income, and when your income does hit those nice physician levels you earn too much to invest in many retirement plans. Be very careful in comparing different kinds of loans to educational loans because they are very different entities. Houses appreciate in value and there are laws protecting your property rights. Mortgage payments are deductible for a much larger amount and are subject to bankruptcy laws. You can also always sell your house, I would like to see you sell your degree if something goes wrong or you decide at 50 you don’t like surgery anymore…The real problem is foregone opportunities. If you have no income you can’t put money in IRAs. Where is your employer matched 401k during med school? Can you afford to put any in during residency? What kind of matching do hospitals offer to residents? The opportunity costs are extreme. Sit down with a friend who was a business major and ask them to help you figure out what kind of payments you need to make at 30 if you want to retire by 65. Retiring at 65 is only prudent since medicine evolves at such a fast rate now your training will be obsolete.

 

[lost101]

Double post. Sorry.

 

[sirus_virus]

This is a great thread for discussion, but don't ignore the simple principles of finance. Invest your money/time in a way so as to maximize your after tax rate of return.

Some notes on previous posts. The estimate of $200,000 in not really that controversial (per year Stafford unsubsidized max $32,000, subsidized $8,500) so ~$160,000 ignoring accumulated interest while in school (~40,000). Realize that few people receive substantial scholarships and many schools do not have a lot of money for low interest loans (most donations go to scholarships not loan programs). I agree averages suck for these kinds of discussions, but the fact that the Stafford loans are available for this much money indicates that those who do not have other financial support will often accumulate this level of debt. If you extend it…people will borrow it, ask any credit card company. Regardless of what estimate you want to use the following discussion is the same.

Most medical debt is at a 6.8% rate which is an actual rate of 7.02% per year. I hope you are great at investing because it is not easy to earn 7% a year net on an investment portfolio after taxes… The DJI average rate of return per year is between 8-10% depending on how far back you go. This is kind or risky so if you diversify with some ibonds etc 7% is not so easy.

There are many things to consider when you decide you want to be a physician and here is a very pessimistic look (unfortunately for many this is actually a realistic look). During residency your income will be between $8-$14 per hour (based on avg hrs worked to avg salary AMA data). You will be working more hours than most other people in the country, especially with your level of education. Because you salary is in the 40-50 range and your annual loan payments will be around $27,619 (if you maxed Stafford), you will either have to opt for an alternative repayment plan (30 yr, increasing payment plan, etc) or defer payments and enjoy all of that compounding. So, now you have finished residency and what are you earning? Not what you think you should be making recalling that Congress has not addressed Medicare overspending nor do they plan to any time soon. Don't forget you will need to build a practice and if you were married during your training hopefully you will not have any alimony (residents and marriage not the best combo unfortunately). Assuming you started school at 22ish you are close to 30 with no retirement savings and maybe a family with kids starting school. Have you thought about college saving, grad school savings for your children…oh and don’t forget Med School tuitions have been rising at close to 5% a year, way above inflation.

As for taxes don’t forget that your deduction for educational loan interest is only $2,500 a year and educational loans are exempt from bankruptcy. This deduction is as someone posted dependent of your income, and when your income does hit those nice physician levels you earn too much to invest in many retirement plans. Be very careful in comparing different kinds of loans to educational loans because they are very different entities. Houses appreciate in value and there are laws protecting your property rights. Mortgage payments are deductible for a much larger amount and are subject to bankruptcy laws. You can also always sell your house, I would like to see you sell your degree if something goes wrong or you decide at 50 you don’t like surgery anymore…The real problem is foregone opportunities. If you have no income you can’t put money in IRAs. Where is your employer matched 401k during med school? Can you afford to put any in during residency? What kind of matching do hospitals offer to residents? The opportunity costs are extreme. Sit down with a friend who was a business major and ask them to help you figure out what kind of payments you need to make at 30 if you want to retire by 65. Retiring at 65 is only prudent since medicine evolves at such a fast rate now your training will be obsolete.

This is too complicated for pre-meds to understand. Just tell them life is all peaches and cream. That is the only language they speak.

 

[MonkeyNuts!]

There are 5 threads about money on pre-allo. Is this the time of the year where people realize this S**t actually costs big time $$?

financial aid packages are coming out.

so yes.

 

[MonkeyNuts!]

This is a spinoff from another thread about financial aid.

If you owe 200K when you graduate, which a lot of you will, I have some news for you:

http://www.finaid.com/calculators/scripts/loanpayments.cgi

Loan Calculator

Loan Balance: $200,000.00
Loan Interest Rate: 6.80%
Loan Term: 10 years
Minimum Payment: $50.00


Monthly Loan Payment: $2,301.61
Number of Payments: 120


Cumulative Payments: $276,192.62
Total Interest Paid: $76,192.62


"It is estimated that you will need an annual salary of at least $276,193.20 to be able to afford to repay this loan"

276K huh? You know most of us will not make anything close to that right. And if you don't make that much, they say you can expect some "financial difficulties", so you guys might as well go ahead and start expecting exactly that.

This whole post was unneccessary because the people you are addressing in your thread title do not exist on this webforum. If you happen to find one, don't make any noise and maybe they will lead you back to their pot o' gold.

 

[Pemberley]

The highest federal bracket you can hit is 35% of the amount over 336,550, add in some state tax and local tax and you might be around 43% (using aggressive numbers), then pay about $15,000 to an accountant and watch that magically number drop faster than [insert funny reference to whatever drops fast here].
[/size]

Just as a note, I'm not entering this dispute on either side; I have no expertise.

But aren't you guys actually saying the same thing? Once you add in 6% or so social security tax to your 43%, you get his 50% (okay, 1 off, but that's not a huge separation.)

 

[Towelie]

This is too complicated for pre-meds to understand. Just tell them life is all peaches and cream. That is the only language they speak.

I think they just disagree with both your and lost101's understanding (or lack thereof) of finances.

The fact is, even if you factor in debt and a lack of getting paid for med school and residency, docs are still making way more than 90% of the population, and are in better shape to retire at 65 than 90% of the population.

I think you guys need to realize that you sound every bit as naive as the pre-meds that brush off $200K in debt as "no big deal" and that you so enjoy making fun of; you are merely the other extreme.

 

[IceMan0824]

This is a great thread for discussion, but don't ignore the simple principles of finance. Invest your money/time in a way so as to maximize your after tax rate of return.

Some notes on previous posts. The estimate of $200,000 in not really that controversial (per year Stafford unsubsidized max $32,000, subsidized $8,500) so ~$160,000 ignoring accumulated interest while in school (~40,000). Realize that few people receive substantial scholarships and many schools do not have a lot of money for low interest loans (most donations go to scholarships not loan programs). I agree averages suck for these kinds of discussions, but the fact that the Stafford loans are available for this much money indicates that those who do not have other financial support will often accumulate this level of debt. If you extend it…people will borrow it, ask any credit card company. Regardless of what estimate you want to use the following discussion is the same.

Most medical debt is at a 6.8% rate which is an actual rate of 7.02% per year. I hope you are great at investing because it is not easy to earn 7% a year net on an investment portfolio after taxes… The DJI average rate of return per year is between 8-10% depending on how far back you go. This is kind or risky so if you diversify with some ibonds etc 7% is not so easy.

There are many things to consider when you decide you want to be a physician and here is a very pessimistic look (unfortunately for many this is actually a realistic look). During residency your income will be between $8-$14 per hour (based on avg hrs worked to avg salary AMA data). You will be working more hours than most other people in the country, especially with your level of education. Because you salary is in the 40-50 range and your annual loan payments will be around $27,619 (if you maxed Stafford), you will either have to opt for an alternative repayment plan (30 yr, increasing payment plan, etc) or defer payments and enjoy all of that compounding. So, now you have finished residency and what are you earning? Not what you think you should be making recalling that Congress has not addressed Medicare overspending nor do they plan to any time soon. Don't forget you will need to build a practice and if you were married during your training hopefully you will not have any alimony (residents and marriage not the best combo unfortunately). Assuming you started school at 22ish you are close to 30 with no retirement savings and maybe a family with kids starting school. Have you thought about college saving, grad school savings for your children…oh and don’t forget Med School tuitions have been rising at close to 5% a year, way above inflation.

As for taxes don’t forget that your deduction for educational loan interest is only $2,500 a year and educational loans are exempt from bankruptcy. This deduction is as someone posted dependent of your income, and when your income does hit those nice physician levels you earn too much to invest in many retirement plans. Be very careful in comparing different kinds of loans to educational loans because they are very different entities. Houses appreciate in value and there are laws protecting your property rights. Mortgage payments are deductible for a much larger amount and are subject to bankruptcy laws. You can also always sell your house, I would like to see you sell your degree if something goes wrong or you decide at 50 you don’t like surgery anymore…The real problem is foregone opportunities. If you have no income you can’t put money in IRAs. Where is your employer matched 401k during med school? Can you afford to put any in during residency? What kind of matching do hospitals offer to residents? The opportunity costs are extreme. Sit down with a friend who was a business major and ask them to help you figure out what kind of payments you need to make at 30 if you want to retire by 65. Retiring at 65 is only prudent since medicine evolves at such a fast rate now your training will be obsolete.

I did a quick glance through this and most of it sounds accurate, but I do want to point out the error that I've bolded. As far as I know, the only account you can't contribute to is Roth IRA. Most is the wrong word there, and yes, I am just splitting hairs here.

It is pessimistic but not overly representative of everyone since you are leaning more towards the worst case scenario, but I will concede that this is viable outcome.
Heck, I have a retirement account now and have other investments on the side so life doesn't have to look so gleeb in 30 years. Hell, maybe it's because I'm a econ major and business minor but not everyone will experience this mid-life crisis.

 

[IceMan0824]

Just as a note, I'm not entering this dispute on either side; I have no expertise.

But aren't you guys actually saying the same thing? Once you add in 6% or so social security tax to your 43%, you get his 50% (okay, 1 off, but that's not a huge separation.)

Not necessarily.... I did a worst case scenario there. Also, federal tax is progressive (if I remember correctly from my undergrad days), so you're not paying 35% of the total. Instead, if you make $300,001 you pay (and not using real tax numbers here (go to irs.gov for actual rates)),
10% of the first $7,000 = $700
15% of the amount between $7,001 and $25,000 = $2699.85
20% of the amount between $25,001 and $100,000 = $14,999.80
33% of the amount between $100,001 and $300,000 = $ 65,999.67
35% of the amount over $300,000 = $0.35
which ends up amounting to $84,339.67 which is about 28% of $300,001.

Back to my point, I used the worst case scenario there and imagine you then paid the highest of taxes everywhere else, state, local, municipal, gift tax, luxury tax, social security tax, AMT and many more and it would still be pretty hard to pay 50% of your salary in tax.

Plus if 100% of your earnings are being taxed, you need to hire an accountant...and no, I'm not advocating you do something illegal.

 

[lost101]

double post

 

[lost101]

I did a quick glance through this and most of it sounds accurate, but I do want to point out the error that I've bolded. As far as I know, the only account you can't contribute to is Roth IRA. Most is the wrong word there, and yes, I am just splitting hairs here.

It is pessimistic but not overly representative of everyone since you are leaning more towards the worst case scenario, but I will concede that this is viable outcome.
Heck, I have a retirement account now and have other investments on the side so life doesn't have to look so gleeb in 30 years. Hell, maybe it's because I'm a econ major and business minor but not everyone will experience this mid-life crisis.

I concede you are correct on that error. My mistake in rushing to write such a large post. However, not being able to fund a Roth IRA is significant enough to warrant mention.

As for who this applies to. Not me, but most of my classmates. Simply put most people in private schools with good financial aid offices max out their Stafford (in contrast to poorly run schools that leave you scrambling to find private loans at rates greater than 7%). Most state schools estimate the cost of attendance too low, and you can not max out Stafford loans, and at the same time you do not have enough to cover living expenses. This is not a worst case scenario only because many people have to find private loans or on top of their Staffords they take lower interest school loans.

The schools that have the best scholarships still only give "some money" to at most 60% of the class. That can be as low as $500 a year. This leaves at least 40% of the class stuck with the entire bill. As for my med school, interviewing experience, and undergrad experience I know few parents make significant contributions to Grad education. It is simply too expensive and as is often incorrectly stated when you debt is that high what is another $10,000.

 

[lost101]

I think they just disagree with both your and lost101's understanding (or lack thereof) of finances.

The fact is, even if you factor in debt and a lack of getting paid for med school and residency, docs are still making way more than 90% of the population, and are in better shape to retire at 65 than 90% of the population.

I think you guys need to realize that you sound every bit as naive as the pre-meds that brush off $200K in debt as "no big deal" and that you so enjoy making fun of; you are merely the other extreme.

I will be honest I am a little offended you called me extreme. I agree it was a very pessimistic post but there were few errors in that post, and to be honest you sound very naive. Doctors are rarely in a good position to retire because few think that far ahead (problem with making so much money). The other problem is that medical education is much more expensive than it was 30 years ago (in inflation adjusted dollars). Do the numbers and read the current literature before you call someone naive.

 

[IceMan0824]

I concede you are correct on that error. My mistake in rushing to write such a large post. However, not being able to fund a Roth IRA is significant enough to warrant mention.

As for who this applies to. Not me, but most of my classmates. Simply put most people in private schools with good financial aid offices max out their Stafford (in contrast to poorly run schools that leave you scrambling to find private loans at rates greater than 7%). Most state schools estimate the cost of attendance too low, and you can not max out Stafford loans, and at the same time you do not have enough to cover living expenses. This is not a worst case scenario only because many people have to find private loans or on top of their Staffords they take lower interest school loans.

The schools that have the best scholarships still only give "some money" to at most 60% of the class. That can be as low as $500 a year. This leaves at least 40% of the class stuck with the entire bill. As for my med school, interviewing experience, and undergrad experience I know few parents make significant contributions to Grad education. It is simply too expensive and as is often incorrectly stated when you debt is that high what is another $10,000.

I agree, this is why I am maxing out my Roth now, plan to roll over this 401(k) that my employer is contributing to when/if I matriculate, and fund a IRA when all else fails (too high an annual income).

It is also not the amount of the education I think is extreme (although public schools and the military are viable alternates), its this

So, now you have finished residency and what are you earning? Not what you think you should be making recalling that Congress has not addressed Medicare overspending nor do they plan to any time soon. Don't forget you will need to build a practice and if you were married during your training hopefully you will not have any alimony (residents and marriage not the best combo unfortunately). Assuming you started school at 22ish you are close to 30 with no retirement savings and maybe a family with kids starting school. Have you thought about college saving, grad school savings for your children…oh and don't forget Med School tuitions have been rising at close to 5% a year, way above inflation.

It's realistic, but still extreme.

But overall, I agree with you. Many more people need to be, if not financially literate, financially aware of the cost (both time and monetary) of attending medical school and living the physician lifestyle.

 

[lost101]

I think they just disagree with both your and lost101's understanding (or lack thereof) of finances.

The fact is, even if you factor in debt and a lack of getting paid for med school and residency, docs are still making way more than 90% of the population, and are in better shape to retire at 65 than 90% of the population.

I think you guys need to realize that you sound every bit as naive as the pre-meds that brush off $200K in debt as "no big deal" and that you so enjoy making fun of; you are merely the other extreme.

Actually to respond to your 90% of the population comment. I just finished a paper for a class that took several different approaches to calculating rate of return for US physicians compared to physicians abroad and to other careers. Simply the worst rate of return on I could find. Only humanities PhDs did close/worse depending on the funding of the program. You have to remember the amount of work, hours, education, intensity, liability as you compare different careers.

 

[Doctor~Detroit]

.

 

[Doctor~Detroit]

I will be honest I am a little offended you called me extreme. I agree it was a very pessimistic post but there were few errors in that post, and to be honest you sound very naive. Doctors are rarely in a good position to retire because few think that far ahead (problem with making so much money). The other problem is that medical education is much more expensive than it was 30 years ago (in inflation adjusted dollars). Do the numbers and read the current literature before you call someone naive.

but the point remains that docs are doing a lot better than most of the population. our concern is whether we can get a porsche for ourselves, not whether we can get health insurance or a meal for our children.

it's only something to cry over if we compare ourselves to docs from the past who graduated with less debt, or business execs who make more money via a quicker education route, etc. but that's ignoring most people in the world. we got it damn good.

 

[Guile]

I think a point that is very underemphasized is that your interest accrues during med school and residency. Most of the numbers I hear quoted by people and mentioned on this thread are only the principal. You can't go into repayment in residency, so that 6.8% (if you're lucky) interest accrues without any payments applied to it. So if you want to do a surgery residency and a fellowship, you'll be out 7-10 years making $45-50K/year, all the while your med school debt accumulates. You can't just take your cost of attendance, multiply by 4, and have the number you're going to have to pay off. We're not dentists who start making six figures after 4 years of school.

lost101, you make some great points in your above posts. Most people don't think about interest, and I'll wager that "opportunity cost" ventures into virtually no one's mind.

 

[lost101]

I agree, this is why I am maxing out my Roth now, plan to roll over this 401(k) that my employer is contributing to when/if I matriculate, and fund a IRA when all else fails (too high an annual income).

It is also not the amount of the education I think is extreme (although public schools and the military are viable alternates), its this



It's realistic, but still extreme.

But overall, I agree with you. Many more people need to be, if not financially literate, financially aware of the cost (both time and monetary) of attending medical school and living the physician lifestyle.

I agree it was extreme and completely founded on several recent publications. The 5% per year increase has been over a 20 year trend and i think that most people forget there are high costs to starting a practice...equipment and office space is far from inexpensive...oh well more debt.

 

[IceMan0824]

I think a point that is very underemphasized is that your interest accrues during med school and residency. Most of the numbers I hear quoted by people and mentioned on this thread are only the principal. You can't go into repayment in residency, so that 6.8% (if you're lucky) interest accrues without any payments applied to it. So if you want to do a surgery residency and a fellowship, you'll be out 7-10 years making $45-50K/year, all the while your med school debt accumulates. You can't just take your cost of attendance, multiply by 4, and have the number you're going to have to pay off. We're not dentists who start making six figures after 4 years of school.

lost101, you make some great points in your above posts. Most people don't think about interest, and I'll wager that "opportunity cost" ventures into virtually no one's mind.

And why not?
Also keep in mind though that once you start paying your loans (in residency), you are paying off the interest and the principal. So the principal starts to decrease. If you're doing a little better financially, then you pay more, have less principal that's cycling each month, pay less in overall interest.

Oh, and call me "no one".

 

[lost101]

And why not?
Also keep in mind though that once you start paying your loans (in residency), you are paying off the interest and the principal. So the principal starts to decrease. If you're doing a little better financially, then you pay more, have less principal that's cycling each month, pay less in overall interest.

Oh, and call me noone.

Hey no one you and I share the same name, funny. No seriously 90-95% of my class could not tell you what a 401K is or why it is advantageous, so how are they supposed to understand the financial opportunity cost. Everyone thinks about kids, family, age. Almost no one can conceptualize the foregone financial costs. Trust me I tried to estimate it into my study and it was a nightmare. This is tricky and if you don't have a financial background it is much more complicated. I personally am pushing my med school to include a relevant finance course (managing grants, retirement, private practice) or a lecture series that is optional. I am pretty sure it will be starting next year. I think this is the takeaway point. Take an interest in your finances, push for tuition decreases (or slower increases), and help others who don't have your background.

 

[Doctor~Detroit]

what is the going interest rate for private lender education loans?

 

[lost101]

what is the going interest rate for private lender education loans?

Depends on your credit.

 

[stiffany]

I'm stating facts. You tweaked and pulled 200k out of thin air - I used a real average. I used realistic numbers and realistic payback times. No one keeps a 10 year payment plan - pretty much every med school graduate will refinance to a 30 year plan. You were dramatic, I stated facts. So who's trying to fit the numbers to their personal desires?

There are a lot of premeds on this site and they don't need to be terrified by some idiotic drama king who is claiming they will never pay back their debt unless they make 300k/year.

Yea, but personally if I spend an additional 8-10 years in training after college, I'd like to take home more than I and my boyfriend live in now which is about the same as your "post taxes and health insurance" discussion above. Trust me - with that gross amt you're going to live very very miserly unless your spouse makes at least as much or more - especially if you're not a two-person income household. $4000 a month to live in your 40s with a mortgage and potentially little ones plus car payments and the like is not very much at all, especially after busting one's bum for the last 2 decades getting to that point.

 

[lilnoelle]

All the private lender loans I've found have been greater than the FedPlus loan (8.5%) and they had a variable APR (probably will only go up).

For instance, a Wells Fargo loan at Prime rate listed at 8.25, and interest rates while in school were prime + (I think 1.7%). Interest rates while in repayment were prime + (I think 3%).

Not good rates at all.

My experience with how credit ratings affect your interest rate is that a good rating does not necessarily mean you get a good loan rate (I couldn't get less than 6.8% on my home mortgage despite having fantastic credit), however, having a bad credit score means your going to end up with a terrible interest rate.
Maybe I'm wrong, but thats my experience.

 

[lost101]

All the private lender loans I've found have been greater than the FedPlus loan (8.5%) and they had a variable APR (probably will only go up).

For instance, a Wells Fargo loan at Prime rate listed at 8.25, and interest rates while in school were prime + (I think 1.7%). Interest rates while in repayment were prime + (I think 3%).

Not good rates at all.

My experience with how credit ratings affect your interest rate is that a good rating does not necessarily mean you get a good loan rate (I couldn't get less than 6.8% on my home mortgage despite having fantastic credit), however, having a bad credit score means your going to end up with a terrible interest rate.
Maybe I'm wrong, but thats my experience.

This is all correct. Quoted rates usually assume you have an incredible credit score. If you want a really good laugh look at some of the things that go into calculating your credit score.

 

[lilnoelle]

This is all correct. Quoted rates usually assume you have an incredible credit score. If you want a really good laugh look at some of the things that go into calculating your credit score.

Yeah. Last year when we bought a home I checked my credit score the day before signing the papers on the loan. They checked it the day that we signed the papers and there was a 5 point difference. They attributed it to the number of "hits" that my credit had recieved lately, (meaning each time my credit was checked it recieved a hit). I thought that was ridiculous... my credit score shouldn't go down just because companies needed to check my credit for various reasons.

 

[Towelie]

Actually to respond to your 90% of the population comment. I just finished a paper for a class that took several different approaches to calculating rate of return for US physicians compared to physicians abroad and to other careers. Simply the worst rate of return on I could find. Only humanities PhDs did close/worse depending on the funding of the program. You have to remember the amount of work, hours, education, intensity, liability as you compare different careers.

Interesting. I would love to see how rate of return is calculated (it seems like it would be impossible). Especially because something like this would probably have a huge variance between different groups of physicians (e.g. derms vs. surgeons vs. pcps).

Btw, lost--how are you liking it at Pritzker?

 

[lilnoelle]

All the private lender loans I've found have been greater than the FedPlus loan (8.5%) and they had a variable APR (probably will only go up).

.

The good news about this is that FedPlus loans are unlimited. (well, up to your school's budget) So even though 8.5% is not a good rate, its better than private loans, and its fixed.

 

[lost101]

Interesting. I would love to see how rate of return is calculated (it seems like it would be impossible). Especially because something like this would probably have a huge variance between different groups of physicians (e.g. derms vs. surgeons vs. pcps).

Btw, lost--how are you liking it at Pritzker?

I calculated rate of return for each specialty and I did using 12 different income surveys using median, mean, 25%, 75% and one for academic physician separately. Lots of this was to check for bias from questionable sources... One of the other things I had a problem with was the variability in years practicing. Anyway it gave some clues as to the way I will need to design a survey for a study I will probably do in the next few years. Interestingly if you look at the years spent in residency and control for hours worked (both in residency and practice) most specialties have similar IRR, MIRR, NPVs...Derm and Radiology are the exceptions, but I would say that they put a lot of work in during med school as well as time off for research.

I love Pritzker and I was going to write a long description including several problems I have experienced, instead I will post it on the acceptance
thread.

 

[Doctor~Detroit]

I love Pritzker and I was going to write a long description including several problems I have experienced, instead I will post it on the acceptance
thread.

please do.

 

[Doctor~Detroit]

I love Pritzker and I was going to write a long description including several problems I have experienced, instead I will post it on the acceptance
thread.

please do.