For those who think US medical schools are perfect

[oldpro]

This story is beyond belief!

How could this happen

No MCAT and No 4 year degree yet and admitted into a US medical school.....

Looks like things do happen in the USA that are under the table at times, this one got caught and is now public.

I feel this may end in law suits by qualified wait listed students who cannot attend.

http://www.gainesvillesun.com/article/20080410/NEWS/804100319/1007/NEWS

When the committee considered the 2008 application of Benjamin Mendelsohn, the son of a prominent Republican fundraiser and contributor, Mendelsohn had not taken the Medical College Admissions Test, or MCAT, according to three members of the selection committee and two other sources close to the situation. The MCAT is a standard admissions requirement for regular admission to the program, selection committee members said.

The sources who spoke with The Sun did so on condition of anonymity, citing concerns about discussing confidential student information.

"There were portions of the application that were unacceptable," said a fourth member of the selection committee, who also asked for anonymity because of confidentiality concerns.

Asked if any student had ever been admitted through the regular admissions process without taking the MCAT, a UF spokesperson would only say: "We maintain the admission by the dean is in accordance with the College of Medicine's admissions policy, which provides the dean the authority to make admissions decisions."

Dr. Bruce Kone, dean of UF's College of Medicine, said last week that he chose to overrule the committee because the applicant was "exceptional." UF President Bernie Machen did not respond to an e-mail asking if he approved of Kone's actions, but he did send an e-mail to a faculty member that said Machen had "looked into" the situation and was "satisfied with the candidate's qualifications for admission."

Mendelsohn is the son of Alan Mendelsohn, a Hollywood ophthalmologist who was a grassroots organizer for Gov. Charlie Crist's 2006 campaign. Kone says there was no political influence in his decision, and that no one leaned on him to admit the student.

Attempts to reach Benjamin Mendelsohn for comment were unsuccessful.

Kone met with UF administrators Friday to discuss the admission of the student, which was made public by a story in The Sun the same day. In response to the meeting, Kone sent a critical e-mail to those in attendance, and copied Machen.

In the e-mail, time-stamped Friday at 10:52 p.m., Kone said Machen's staff did not "sho(o)t straight" when he met with them, adding that they were not sufficiently courteous to him when they discussed the admissions issue.

"I don't know if it was cowardice, a lack of compassion, or what, but it is symptomatic of why this university is stuck in mediocrity and has been since I left here 13 years ago," wrote Kone, a former UF student and faculty member.

Kone said that he followed university precedent, "delivered a great student. Took many bullets for the team. Protected the mother ship."

Asked whether Kone's reference to protecting the "mother ship" implied that he was pressured to accept the student, Machen responded Wednesday, "Please don't make inferences that would be pure conjecture . . . I assure you neither I nor any member of my staff had any involvement in the medical student admission decision."

Benjamin Mendelsohn had received a letter of recommendation from Crist when he applied for admittance to an accelerated medical school program in 2007, but Kone says he never saw it. In his e-mail discussing the admissions issue Wednesday, Machen also referenced a letter sent by Sen. Ken Pruitt, the Republican chairman of the state Senate.

"The letters from Sen. Pruitt and the governor were routine and there was no follow-up from us," Machen wrote. "We receive scores of them each year."

Efforts to reach Pruitt's district office to acquire any letter he may have written were unsuccessful Wednesday night.

The accelerated program to which Mendelsohn applied in 2007, which combines bachelor's and medical degrees over seven years, is known as the Junior Honors Program. That program does not require an MCAT, but Mendelsohn was approved this year for regular admission - not Junior Honors admission, according to a search committee member.

Graham Patrick, assistant dean of admissions at Florida State University's College of Medicine, said the MCAT is one of many credentials that FSU takes into consideration when evaluating applicants. He added, however, that "we have never had anyone admitted without an MCAT score."

Two selection committee members expressed concerns about Mendelsohn's qualifications beyond the lack of an MCAT. UF applicants are required to complete a standard medical school application through the American Medical College Application Service, a sort of national clearinghouse that collects information for applicants who may be applying to multiple medical schools.

According to one search committee member, Mendelsohn did not complete a secondary application through the service that UF requires before admission. Another member characterized it this way: "He never took the MCAT and did not apply through AMCAS by the usual deadline - instead, he applied by special permission, given by Dr. Kone, in February."

UF requires that all materials be submitted by Jan. 15, according to the university's Web site.

"Incomplete files will be canceled from further consideration," the Web site states. "No application materials will be accepted after this date and there are no extensions of the deadline."

UF officials would not respond specifically when asked if deadlines could ever be extended under any circumstances, only saying the dean controls admissions.

shocking really

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[puchi]

I remember reading this in the pre allo forum. Just sickening!

 

[travoltage]

i think the aamc will penalize them big time, could maybe take away their rights to award MD degrees..who knows

 

[oldpro]

Whats funny I bet they talk about the Caribbean schools and the students not being qualified LOL really and this Guy is?

 

[BrainBuff]

It is naive not to think that this doesn't happen more often....and everywhere. If this happened in a state school in the US, just imagine what may go on in the caribbean....I think that's what's really funny..

 

[JoeNamaMD]

That is shocking, with all the crap US medical schools make students go through, the admissions process is incredibly expensive, as much as 5000 dollars when you tally all your expenses to apply. Someone gets in with out a BS and an MCAT score.

Heck the US is far from perfect too, and the world is beginning to realize this. I can see the rappers start rhyming Euro(oy-ro) Euro(oy-ro) bill yall instead of dolla dolla bill yall.

 

[oldpro]

Caribbean? It is well known and not hidden that the Caribbean schools admit low stat people and sometimes those without Degrees and MCATs so that is not shocking at all

A major US medical school gets caught doing this when thousands are turned down that have great stats and hundreds at the same school is not only shocking but Criminal,

any one who is trying to turn this into a "What goes on in the Caribbean" thread is just plain missing the point, its not the Caribbean in the Article or the focus, its a US school breaking its own rules and a Dean acting like a political Lacky Its Niave to think US schools do not do this more often I think this time they just got caught, its always been Hush Hush in the US, The Caribbean schools do not hide it. Its hypocritical for US students to run around and bash the Caribbean for doing out in the open what US schools try to hide, this time poorly.

 

[westphi]

This just goes to show...untill you pass your boards...it doesn't matter what your background is.

 

[oldpro]

This just goes to show...untill you pass your boards...it doesn't matter what your background is.

Yes I agree with this because I'm a rebel ( Like those Jedi) LOL

 

[oldpro]

Next time I have to read the crap that the "Caribbean does not have standards " I will remind them of this and that the US is no better at times!

 

[lovebug]

SHOCKING!!!

And here I'm with a Masters degree and 34P and still looking at Carib schools due to cost and fear that my military experience might work against my application.

It is outrageous that politicians are able to get seats in a US medical school for their contributors. In fact not just med schools, but it is unacceptable in any field.

I think all the Carib schools should make this a BIG issue so that US med students will know that they are not perfect either. Where there is one, there are bound to be more and in more schools also!

 

[Top Gun]

It is shocking, indeed. But this sort of thing probably happens at many US med schools. Someone gets in because their father endowed a building or their uncle is on the board of trustees or some other political connection. I think this should indeed be a wake-up call to US med students who look down on the Caribbean.

 

[oldpro]

It is shocking, indeed. But this sort of thing probably happens at many US med schools. Someone gets in because their father endowed a building or their uncle is on the board of trustees or some other political connection. I think this should indeed be a wake-up call to US med students who look down on the Caribbean.

But,But,But it would never happen in the USA that

Unqualified students without MCAT, Without a Degree, without doing the proper "hoops to jump through" and "Pay your dues" would ever get into a US school.

(University of Florida story 4/2008) Oops Guess it does happen in the USA!

 

[physics junkie]

Seems like some of you guys think you should take every opportunity to bash US schools to make up for the bashing done to foreign schools...

 

[travoltage]

i dont think anyone really is here to bash the schools, i just think its crazy what happened at u of f....as oldpro mentioned earlier, thousands of well qualified applicants who worked hard get turned down and this jacka** gets in with nothing, there are students who would give their teeth to get into med school

 

[EuroPhysician]

SHOCKING!!!

And here I'm with a Masters degree and 34P and still looking at Carib schools due to cost and fear that my military experience might work against my application.

It is outrageous that politicians are able to get seats in a US medical school for their contributors. In fact not just med schools, but it is unacceptable in any field.

I think all the Carib schools should make this a BIG issue so that US med students will know that they are not perfect either. Where there is one, there are bound to be more and in more schools also!

Looking at a Caribbean school with a 34P and a Masters degree? What is your GPA?? I think military experience would be seen as a positive if anything else.

 

[oldpro]

Seems like some of you guys think you should take every opportunity to bash US schools to make up for the bashing done to foreign schools...

Thats so FUnny! Just read the crap posted here!

the truth about what happens sometimes behind the closed doors of the US schools is told by a verifiable source and its now wrong to post about it?

By the way How is the truth a Bash?

 

[physics junkie]

Thats so FUnny! Just read the crap posted here!

the truth about what happens sometimes behind the closed doors of the US schools is told by a verifiable source and its now wrong to post about it?

By the way How is the truth a Bash?

Nothing is wrong with posting about it or commenting about how pathetic it all is. Taking it a bit further and saying this stuff happens all the time(with no evidence beyond an isolated case) and that corruption in US schools is as prevalent as it is in international schools seems a bit much. Just seemed like you and others were trying to generalize a bit too much from an isolated case of one dean's corruption.

 

[oldpro]

Nothing is wrong with posting about it or commenting about how pathetic it all is. Taking it a bit further and saying this stuff happens all the time(with no evidence beyond an isolated case) and that corruption in US schools is as prevalent as it is in international schools seems a bit much. Just seemed like you and others were trying to generalize a bit too much from an isolated case of one dean's corruption.

Well, It does happen more then 1 incident in the USA, proof?

No I cannot prove it right now but neither can anyone about the Caribbean schools and the garbage I have to read posted.

Why is it unfair to comment when there is undeniable proof this time? If this was a Caribbean school like SGU you and other US students would rub it in our face for sure,

BTW I mean no offense but this is the Caribbean forum and I'm posting in the Caribbean forum not the Allo forum! I think we should be able to discuss this I paid taxes for over 20 years working full time as a RN and had to go outside the US for school, this guy does not have the qualifications I do and gets in, it does make me upset to a degree

I think with good digging we could find a few more cases in the USA like this one.

This is not isolated and anyone who thinks so is naive.

 

[I See You]

and really what is your point oldpro? it happens get over it. You must be really naive to think things like what the article narrates do not happen each and every application cycle. It happens with US schools, caribbean schools, e.t.c. the bottom line is this there are qualified us medical students and there are unqualified ones, so too with the caribbean students.

 

[oldpro]

and really what is your point oldpro? it happens get over it. You must be really naive to think things like what the article narrates do not happen each and every application cycle. It happens with US schools, caribbean schools, e.t.c. the bottom line is this there are qualified us medical students and there are unqualified ones, so too with the caribbean students.

Point is simple........ I have to (As other Caribbean students) endure relentless posts on how Caribbean students are not qualified and substandard and that US students are already "Doctors" when accepted due to the "High standards" of US schools. I do not have to prove this, the attitude is there in so many posts here and even your statement, "Whats your point" you should know US students hate it when the truth does get out that we are all just as qualified and US schools are not perfect!

I do not have the attitude but forced to answer to the attitudes posted to bring out the truth about Caribbean schools, they are a viable and legit option for medical school and not diploma mills.

Besides I was shocked and Have an opinion to voice that I think it happens way more then it is admitted to or they are caught in the US.

 

[I See You]

oldpro, the bashing of caribbean schools primarily exists on sdn because frankly some premeds just do not know what they are talking about. The sense I got from your posts is anger. If i were you, I will ignore people who make stupid comments about caribbean grads and schools.

 

[oldpro]

oldpro, the bashing of caribbean schools primarily exists on sdn because frankly some premeds just do not know what they are talking about. The sense I got from your posts is anger. If i were you, I will ignore people who make stupid comments about caribbean grads and schools.

I'm am angry some, you see due to the "High standards of US schools" and my past in College at 40 I choose to go to the Caribbean, I would have tried to stay in the USA If I had the time ( about 4 years to redo) and the money, but the fact is in the USA that your past "Haunts you" when applying to US schools. At 40 I saw this as "one shot at this" I think I will be ok in the end but there are a lot of people "Passed over by US schools" and if this kind of stuff goes on even if at a low percentage, it should not go on at all in the USA is my point, this should not be tolerated to the highest levels, too many people are messed up by this illegal activity. (Yes I think its illegal to have rules of acceptance which btw are bare min : 90 credit hours, prereqs, 3.0 and the MCAT) Yet the schools do not follow the rules for few, Most of us are unlucky to be the few most times.

When Caribbean schools follow the same rules and some do not include the MCAT on the list there is a backlash from US students. MCAT does help provide indication of the 1st 2 years of Medical school success but does not have any indication of being able to be a Good Doctor (MCAT has nothing to do with the practice of medicine).

So I just want it for the record, If the US schools can have the ability to not include a 4 year degree and MCAT as admission criteria then if it happens in the Caribbean it is no different. No more "Caribbean is substandard" It is not a nice as US schools and you do not get the same help but you study Medicine all the same.

Someone has to point this out at times when the immature post.

Good Luck all.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Point is simple........ I have to (As other Caribbean students) endure relentless posts on how Caribbean students are not qualified and substandard and that US students are already "Doctors" when accepted due to the "High standards" of US schools. I do not have to prove this, the attitude is there in so many posts here and even your statement, "Whats your point" you should know US students hate it when the truth does get out that we are all just as qualified and US schools are not perfect!

this should not be tolerated to the highest levels, too many people are messed up by this illegal activity. (Yes I think its illegal to have rules of acceptance which btw are bare min : 90 credit hours, prereqs, 3.0 and the MCAT) Yet the schools do not follow the rules for few, Most of us are unlucky to be the few most times.

When Caribbean schools follow the same rules and some do not include the MCAT on the list there is a backlash from US students.

MCAT does help provide indication of the 1st 2 years of Medical school success but does not have any indication of being able to be a Good Doctor (MCAT has nothing to do with the practice of medicine).

Sounds like you have a huge chip on your shoulder. I dont even know why I am going to respond to this dribble but...

This was news because it is a rare occurrence. If it really occurred as much as you are insinuating it wouldnt have been news. Give me another example of this happening... Yeah thats what I thought.

Second, while the strength of the student can be measured by admission standards, the thing that differentiates one doctor from the next is his education. The reason why people rag on Carribbean docs is because the education standards are not the same. This has very little to do with admissions.


It is not illegal. A school can allow whomever they want into their school. Was this unethical... perhaps but to the victor goes the spoils.

When a carribean school doesnt include MCAT there is no backlash, because frankly no one cares.

Sure the MCAT wont help tell who will be a better doctor between one person with a 29 and one with a 30. But, if you take someone with a 20 and compare to someone with a 35 I will be able to tell you who will be a better doctor >95% of the time.

 

[oldpro]

Sounds like you have a huge chip on your shoulder. I dont even know why I am going to respond to this dribble but...

No I do not have a "Chip" funny how you insult me and say how I have a chip. It's only dribble because you want to believe that US schools have a "High standard" and Caribbean could not possibly ( they do have standards)

This was news because it is a rare occurrence. If it really occurred as much as you are insinuating it wouldnt have been news. Give me another example of this happening... Yeah thats what I thought.

How can you prove it does not go on more? I think asking a 4th year medical student to go out and spend hours undercover investigating US medical schools for this is just so darn funny. ( By the way you concluded I could not come with another example I'm sure in time I could) It is your OPINION it does not go one more because it is not reported, and what is going on in IRAQ? So problems do not exist if they are not in the popular press? I'm not that naive and I hope you are not.

Second, while the strength of the student can be measured by admission standards, the thing that differentiates one doctor from the next is his education. The reason why people rag on Carribbean docs is because the education standards are not the same. This has very little to do with admissions.

This is not true, the education in the Caribbean may be different at times but it has been accepted by US states as equivalent as in the Laws and rules of the states since they have Licensed the grads in the states that say the education must be deemed equivalent. Hard to argue that one!

Also the ones who rag on Caribbean Docs are the small minded ones in US schools, these few are ignorant to what the education is really like and make stupid statements that are wrong more then Half the time, (MCAT is not required anywhere but the USA and CANADA for instance, even in the UK a new admission test has not been universally used yet.)
So RAG ON we know.

In the real world where I am now it matters little.

It is not illegal. A school can allow whomever they want into their school. Was this unethical... perhaps but to the victor goes the spoils.

It is illegal if the policies of the school are bypassed, this is how corporations are prosecuted for different crimes. There are rules that have to be followed.
Also they are open to law suits by students who are wait listed and cannot attend if they have been through all the steps and prove to be more qualified.

OH WHERE ARE THE HIGH US STANDARDS?! LOL!

When a carribean school doesnt include MCAT there is no backlash, because frankly no one cares.

Yea right LOL LOL LOL, you have not been on this forum much and you must be a US student, if so then why do you care?

Sure the MCAT wont help tell who will be a better doctor between one person with a 29 and one with a 30. But, if you take someone with a 20 and compare to someone with a 35 I will be able to tell you who will be a better doctor >95% of the time.

What credentials makes you an expert? I love it when broad statements are made like this. I said what the MCAT has proven per studies I have read, not some person opinion. Personally I think the MCAT is nothing more then an unnecessary "HOOP" but thats not a factual statement "A belief".

FUnny

 

[Instatewaiter]

How can you prove it does not go on more? I think asking a 4th year medical student to go out and spend hours undercover investigating US medical schools for this is just so darn funny. ( By the way you concluded I could not come with another example I'm sure in time I could) It is your OPINION it does not go one more because it is not reported, and what is going on in IRAQ? So problems do not exist if they are not in the popular press? I'm not that naive and I hope you are not.

I dont have to prove anything. You were the one that made wild claims. I am just asking you to put your money where your mouth is. While you're at it, find me a couple since it is so frequent.

Iraq? what does that have to do with domestic reporting? Way to distract from the fact you couldnt find a thing.

This is not true, the education in the Caribbean may be different at times but it has been accepted by US states as equivalent as in the Laws and rules of the states since they have Licensed the grads in the states that say the education must be deemed equivalent. Hard to argue that one!

First it doesnt say they are equivalent. It says that Carribean education is adequate to be licensed. Adequate and equivalent are not the same thing.

Were it accepted as an equal you would see comparable match lists between US schools and the carribean. You dont

Were it equal you would see similar match rates as the US. You dont.

Were it equal you would see similar board pass rates. You dont.

Were it equal Carribean grads wouldnt have to jump through more hoops than US seniors. The govt forces you guys to do all sorts of EFMG stuff that US grads dont have to.

Were it equal Carribean grads would have equal practice rights world wide. They dont.

Let's call a spade a spade

It is illegal if the policies of the school are bypassed, this is how corporations are prosecuted for different crimes. There are rules that have to be followed.
Also they are open to law suits by students who are wait listed and cannot attend if they have been through all the steps and prove to be more qualified.

Corporations are prosecuted when they break the law not when they violate a policy of the company.

There is no law stating a school must adhere to its policies much less have any policies in place. It is not a legal matter.

The lawsuits you are talking about are civil suits and deal with discrimination based on race, gender, sexual identity etc. Discrimination based on these things is illegal. See there is a law in place already- thus illegal.

why do you care?

What credentials makes you an expert? I love it when broad statements are made like this. I said what the MCAT has proven per studies I have read, not some person opinion. Personally I think the MCAT is nothing more then an unnecessary "HOOP" but thats not a factual statement "A belief".

FUnny

I figured I would respond because your post was so "out there".

Anyone who scores a 35 is going to be very bright. Anyone who scores a 20 is not going to be nearly as bright. That aptitude is going to translate into quicker reasoning and a firmer grasp on pathology and overall a larger knowledge base. Were we talking about a difference of a few points, no you wont see much of a difference because of other variables at work but when we are talking about over 10 points...

 

[tkim]

Were it equal Carribean grads would have equal practice rights world wide. They dont.

Pardon the pwnage intrusion, but do you know where I can find a list that details international practice rights for the USMD? I'm not being facetious. I would really like to know.

If you look at my posting history, I've been involved in clearing up DO international practice rights issues on SDN - I usually post the wiki site that details those countries, but I've yet to come upon a similar list for USMDs.

Everyone believes that the USMD is a near universal medical degree, and while I firmly believe that the USMD is more widely accepted internationally, say, over the DO or FMG, I can't determine to what extent that's true.

I believe that USMDs have greater international practice rights than DOs and FMGs, but I can't prove it. Can you?

 

[oldpro]

I dont have to prove anything. You were the one that made wild claims. I am just asking you to put your money where your mouth is. While you're at it, find me a couple since it is so frequent.

Iraq? what does that have to do with domestic reporting? Way to distract from the fact you couldnt find a thing.



First it doesnt say they are equivalent. It says that Carribean education is adequate to be licensed. Adequate and equivalent are not the same thing.

Were it accepted as an equal you would see comparable match lists between US schools and the carribean. You dont

Were it equal you would see similar match rates as the US. You dont.

Were it equal you would see similar board pass rates. You dont.

Were it equal Carribean grads wouldnt have to jump through more hoops than US seniors. The govt forces you guys to do all sorts of EFMG stuff that US grads dont have to.

Were it equal Carribean grads would have equal practice rights world wide. They dont.

Let's call a spade a spade



Corporations are prosecuted when they break the law not when they violate a policy of the company.

There is no law stating a school must adhere to its policies much less have any policies in place. It is not a legal matter.

The lawsuits you are talking about are civil suits and deal with discrimination based on race, gender, sexual identity etc. Discrimination based on these things is illegal. See there is a law in place already- thus illegal.



I figured I would respond because your post was so "out there".

Anyone who scores a 35 is going to be very bright. Anyone who scores a 20 is not going to be nearly as bright. That aptitude is going to translate into quicker reasoning and a firmer grasp on pathology and overall a larger knowledge base. Were we talking about a difference of a few points, no you wont see much of a difference because of other variables at work but when we are talking about over 10 points...

If only you could get facts straight and right.

In the States I'm talking about it never never says Adequate! It reads EQUIVALENT! Plain as Kings English.

AN MCAT is not an Intelligence test. Plain and simple fact! (WOW)

Match lists have nothing to do with the quality or the education comparison, this is your opinion. How can you even draw a correlation between if the Education was equivalent and the Match? It does not correlate.

WOW too many holes in this logic.

I'm not even close as to "Out there" as this, My comments started on real published events/facts and you make yours up. (BTW I'm not the only one who thinks/believes this happens more often in the US, many do, who you know and donations to schools ect... I have been told that I'm naive to think it may not or that I was surprised, too bad I was shocked for real)

 

[oldpro]

Pardon the pwnage intrusion, but do you know where I can find a list that details international practice rights for the USMD? I'm not being facetious. I would really like to know.

If you look at my posting history, I've been involved in clearing up DO international practice rights issues on SDN - I usually post the wiki site that details those countries, but I've yet to come upon a similar list for USMDs.

Everyone believes that the USMD is a near universal medical degree, and while I firmly believe that the USMD is more widely accepted internationally, say, over the DO or FMG, I can't determine to what extent that's true.

I believe that USMDs have greater international practice rights than DOs and FMGs, but I can't prove it. Can you?

In this case I'm with you, it seems arrogance knows no bounds...............

 

[Instatewaiter]

Pardon the pwnage intrusion, but do you know where I can find a list that details international practice rights for the USMD? I'm not being facetious. I would really like to know.

If you look at my posting history, I've been involved in clearing up DO international practice rights issues on SDN - I usually post the wiki site that details those countries, but I've yet to come upon a similar list for USMDs.

Everyone believes that the USMD is a near universal medical degree, and while I firmly believe that the USMD is more widely accepted internationally, say, over the DO or FMG, I can't determine to what extent that's true.

I believe that USMDs have greater international practice rights than DOs and FMGs, but I can't prove it. Can you?

Looked it up for a while but couldnt find a single thing. Found a ton on DO and FMG licensure in foreign countries and the US but very little on US trained MDs practicing abroad.

Many of the articles on DO/FMG licensure were framed such that practice rights are similar to US MD or less than US MD by X amt. This leads me to believe that there are more universal acceptances of US MDs but I didnt come upon a list. I even searched through AMA and AMSA but came up empty.

I know that Medices Sans fronteres/Drs w/o borders has (used to have?) fewer restrictions for MDs trained in the US. I also know the WHO created a list of "accredited" medical schools but again couldnt find it.

Sorry to disappoint.

 

[Instatewaiter]

If only you could get facts straight and right.

In the States I'm talking about it never never says Adequate! It reads EQUIVALENT! Plain as Kings English.

AN MCAT is not an Intelligence test. Plain and simple fact! (WOW)

Match lists have nothing to do with the quality or the education comparison, this is your opinion. How can you even draw a correlation between if the Education was equivalent and the Match? It does not correlate.

WOW too many holes in this logic.

I'm not even close as to "Out there" as this, My comments started on real published events/facts and you make yours up. (BTW I'm not the only one who thinks/believes this happens more often in the US, many do, who you know and donations to schools ect... I have been told that I'm naive to think it may not or that I was surprised, too bad I was shocked for real)

With all your talk about the quality of education, what kind of program did you match into?
Neurosurg at UCSF? Plastics at Harvard? Ortho? Derm? .... OB-gyn? EM? IM?


My guess is either FM or psych... and probably in a pretty crappy location

And while N=1, that is a pretty powerful 1.

So what did you match into?

 

[tkim]

Looked it up for a while but couldnt find a single thing. Found a ton on DO and FMG licensure in foreign countries and the US but very little on US trained MDs practicing abroad.

Many of the articles on DO/FMG licensure were framed such that practice rights are similar to US MD or less than US MD by X amt.

I can't even articles that specify 'x' amount less rights or countries, nor can I find articles that compare and contrast USMD versus others. Can you give me a link or two like that?

This leads me to believe that there are more universal acceptances of US MDs but I didnt come upon a list. I even searched through AMA and AMSA but came up empty.

I've done the same, and have not come up with a list. As I said before, I believe that the USMD has more acceptance internationally for practice than the FMG or USDO, but what bugs me is by what degree? And why isn't there some sort of list?

I know that Medices Sans fronteres/Drs w/o borders has (used to have?) fewer restrictions for MDs trained in the US. I also know the WHO created a list of "accredited" medical schools but again couldnt find it.

USDOs are accepted into Doctors Without Borders without restriction. But that's mission work and falls under different rules.

 

[tkim]

Perhaps I am shooting too high for you... How 'bout Neuro, OB-GYN? What about EM?

Ouch, dude, you cut me deep. Heh.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Ouch, dude, you cut me deep. Heh.

Yeah it came out really harsh (toward Oldpro) and I changed it, but apparently not before you quoted it. But hey i was comparing to Neurosurg at UCSF... cant be too upset about that.

Notice though I start low and move high. Neuro--> Ob--> EM.

Didnt mean to offend or insinuate that EM was a non-competitive specialty.

 

[Instatewaiter]

I can't even articles that specify 'x' amount less rights or countries, nor can I find articles that compare and contrast USMD versus others. Can you give me a link or two like that?

I've done the same, and have not come up with a list. As I said before, I believe that the USMD has more acceptance internationally for practice than the FMG or USDO, but what bugs me is by what degree? And why isn't there some sort of list?

USDOs are accepted into Doctors Without Borders without restriction. But that's mission work and falls under different rules.

The WIKI article onDO practice rights has a few examples of where DO's rights are less or equal to MDs. Singapore comes to mind but honestly I dont feel like looking through my search history. I dont think it addressed FMGs or specifically carribean grads since it was about mainland DO grads.

I vaguely remember looking into voluneering with MSF a few years back and finding that they had restricted rights from various countries and various degrees but that is just a vague memory.

I was really surprised that I couldnt find a list. And trust me it wasnt from lack of trying.

 

[tkim]

Didnt mean to offend or insinuate that EM was a non-competitive specialty.

Dude, I was just funnin'.

 

[tkim]

The WIKI article onDO practice rights has a few examples of where DO's rights are less or equal to MDs. Singapore comes to mind but honestly I dont feel like looking through my search history. I dont think it addressed FMGs or specifically carribean grads since it was about mainland DO grads.

Singapore is a weird place, only recognizes USMD grads from 37 med schools, though I think the application is a mere formality

I was really surprised that I couldnt find a list. And trust me it wasnt from lack of trying.

Yeah, I was surprised too when I looked.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Dude, I was just funnin'.

NO i realize, but it seems like everytime i make a borderline comment about EM you are always there.

 

[tkim]

NO i realize, but it seems like everytime i make a borderline comment about EM you are always there.

I think both times we were already in the thread. Kinda hard not to be there when I'm there.

 

[oldpro]

With all your talk about the quality of education, what kind of program did you match into?
Neurosurg at UCSF? Plastics at Harvard? Ortho? Derm? .... OB-gyn? EM? IM?


My guess is either FM or psych... and probably in a pretty crappy location

And while N=1, that is a pretty powerful 1.

So what did you match into?

RURAL FAM PRactice Just what I have always wanted to do.

You see where I'm going to practice there is a Great need for FP

FP's are the ER Docs out here and the Attendings in the Hosp.

This is not a compromise or let down, its what I went to Medical school for.

You can have the big city pathology does not know the difference and there is just as much out here then in the city.

I do not care nor have I ever about the so called Competitive residencies.

 

[physics junkie]

Oldpro, I feel like you're avatar is reflective of the kind of person you are.

 

[oldpro]

Oldpro, I feel like you're avatar is reflective of the kind of person you are.

Uh thanks,

That Avatar is something I found and it fit how I feel on these forums.....so many are quick to judge you based on what school you go to and to tell others a lot of advice that most of the time is wrong.

I "Beat my head against the wall a lot" with these posts, I just do not know how so many think they know what the Caribbean schools are about without ever setting foot in one of them and only being in their 20's, I'm old enough to be the father of most of the young premeds (44 myself) and I have spent 20 years in medicine.

Its all about learning and performing well, Medicine is not about a building or what friends think, who really cares about cocktail party attitudes?

Being able to Practice is the goal, In the way I'm a rebel, I think its ok to do things in life that you want to do and to do what you must do to be happy. ( legally and not harming others of course LOL)

I did that and so could others if they just stop worrying about what others think so much, really I have said it a thousand times

in the US 70% of the premeds ( the ones who declare premed) will never make it to medical school. Just declaring premed means zip, nothing.

Taking advice from a Premed is not really a good idea since only 30% may know what they are talking about.

 

[DrYanKu]

Sounds like you have a huge chip on your shoulder. I dont even know why I am going to respond to this dribble but...

This was news because it is a rare occurrence. If it really occurred as much as you are insinuating it wouldnt have been news. Give me another example of this happening... Yeah thats what I thought.

Second, while the strength of the student can be measured by admission standards, the thing that differentiates one doctor from the next is his education. The reason why people rag on Carribbean docs is because the education standards are not the same. This has very little to do with admissions.


It is not illegal. A school can allow whomever they want into their school. Was this unethical... perhaps but to the victor goes the spoils.

When a carribean school doesnt include MCAT there is no backlash, because frankly no one cares.

Sure the MCAT wont help tell who will be a better doctor between one person with a 29 and one with a 30. But, if you take someone with a 20 and compare to someone with a 35 I will be able to tell you who will be a better doctor >95% of the time.

are you kidding? you think this is rare occurance and that is why it is news? ... if you want me to name a fews, probably can't because nobody had done any investigations or crackdown on adcoms from all the schools yet. but i can assure you that those standards that you all say so high for the USMD can be lowered by the fingers of adcoms from the schools. especially true for private school, where family ties are involved. i have a friend who get into Standford with subpar for Standford's standard just because she is one of adcom's wife.

just because they don't get caught doesn't mean nothing happens and it is a rare occurance.

really? you can tell who is going to a better doctor by seein just the MCAT score? wow you must be a genius. i bet you know what 47 is then

 

[Instatewaiter]

are you kidding? you think this is rare occurance and that is why it is news? ... if you want me to name a fews, probably can't because nobody had done any investigations or crackdown on adcoms from all the schools yet. but i can assure you that those standards that you all say so high for the USMD can be lowered by the fingers of adcoms from the schools. especially true for private school, where family ties are involved. i have a friend who get into Standford with subpar for Standford's standard just because she is one of adcom's wife.

really? you can tell who is going to a better doctor by seein just the MCAT score? wow you must be a genius. i bet you know what 47 is then

For someone who has yet to enter medical school you speak like you know what being a successful medical student entails. The sheer volume of material you are expected to know is overwhelming. All things equal, someone who scored a 20 just doesnt have the same mental capacity that someone who scored a 35 does. The smarter you are the more you will retain the more you will recognize the more able you will be to make the right diagnosis.

 

[Instatewaiter]

like i said earlier, when the numbers are close together like a 30 vs a 32, not too much can be drawn from that. But, when there is a significant gap, you can be pretty sure that the one with the higher number is going to be smarter.

Hard work can make up some of the difference but honestly at the med school level, everyone works hard

 

[oldpro]

For someone who has yet to enter medical school you speak like you know what being a successful medical student entails. The sheer volume of material you are expected to know is overwhelming. All things equal, someone who scored a 20 just doesnt have the same mental capacity that someone who scored a 35 does. The smarter you are the more you will retain the more you will recognize the more able you will be to make the right diagnosis.

And yet why are some of these Genius US Grad Doctors are going to jail this year for Medicare fraud, sued for malpractice and loose privileges at even small town Hospitals while the Caribbean Grads out here have not?

The MCAT does not prove as much as you dream it does.

Guess you think less of Einstein and others like him who could not conform so easy but were and are some of the most intelligent people of the Human race?

 

[farnsworth]

And yet why are some of these Genius US Grad Doctors are going to jail this year for Medicare fraud, sued for malpractice and loose privileges at even small town Hospitals while the Caribbean Grads out here have not?

....wait, what?

And why do you capitalize words randomly?

 

[oldpro]

....wait, what?

And why do you capitalize words randomly?

Look I Personally Know of more then 5 here in southern Ga who are in trouble with the Feds and other sorted things, All of them are US grads. What I hate is the snobbery of some US students that shows like a sore thumb.

I'm a Busy medical student myself and do not have all the time to reference the stories and situations, but the naivety of some on here both US students and Caribbean students to even think that a MCAT means you are smart and means you are above all others, and that US grads are so great that they are above fraud and other misbehavior is just too much.

Really I'm tired of reading and debating such biased one minded snobby people.

They are not always right ( GOD I know I'm not) just because they were lucky enough to get accepted into a US medical school ( Yes some of it is dumb luck , some who they know and the others deserved it).

If this offends any of you then get a life, I did not name names and if you are upset then it shows there's truth to this. I'm posting of the few and the ones who have to be right at insulting, putting down or squashing anyone that has another thought or point if its in opposition to theirs.............................

 

[farnsworth]

Look I Personally Know of more then 5 here in southern Ga who are in trouble with the Feds and other sorted things, All of them are US grads. What I hate is the snobbery of some US students that shows like a sore thumb.

I'm a Busy medical student myself and do not have all the time to reference the stories and situations, but the naivety of some on here both US students and Caribbean students to even think that a MCAT means you are smart and means you are above all others, and that US grads are so great that they are above fraud and other misbehavior is just too much.

Really I'm tired of reading and debating such biased one minded snobby people.

They are not always right ( GOD I know I'm not) just because they were lucky enough to get accepted into a US medical school ( Yes some of it is dumb luck , some who they know and the others deserved it).

I mean I'll be the first to say that luck has a lot to do with it, that the process is in a lot of ways unfair, and that there's probably a hair's breadth of difference between many U.S. and caribbean med students, but that's no reason to level accusations like this. You're alienating people who would otherwise be allies.

 

[oldpro]

I mean I'll be the first to say that luck has a lot to do with it, that the process is in a lot of ways unfair, and that there's probably a hair's breadth of difference between many U.S. and caribbean med students, but that's no reason to level accusations like this. You're alienating people who would otherwise be allies.

Have you read the posts throughout the years here on the Caribbean forum?

"I would never consider a Medical School Legit that does not require a MCAT"
"(Caribbean "Students) Take short cuts and thats why they should not be Doctors"
"Caribbean grads will never get a residency" ( this I have over and over proved that the match rate stats of 50% from the Match and outside the match at 20% at least comes to 70% match way better then what is posted) "Caribbean Schools cannot compare to US schools" ( yet states license Caribbean grads every month with a requirement of "comparable education" to qualify for License) "US students are already "Doctors" when they are accepted by a US medical School" ( this one I have never forgotten the ultimate snob post) I can go on and on with this

What I'm posting is not Accusations I can name names of the Physicians who are at this moment closing their doors due to the legal troubles some with the Feds. But I must refrain from this on a public board unless I can post the Newspaper articles ( yes small towns this is front page news and well known in my area of Georgia, the towns down here have less then 20,000 people per town).

What is sad is that I cannot post the truth on here without being accused myself of bias.

Caribbean Students get accepted to Medical school easier no argument
Caribbean students must work harder to pass Basic science, get past Step one and the clinical years.
They must work harder at getting a residency

Lastly they have to endure a few people who think the only "Good Doctors" are the ones who went to a US school.

No I do not want to offend others but it seems anytime on here I have posted the truth or facts I have dug up I have to endure opinions as facts and arguments. I can post tons of facts that are quickly dismissed because the other poster believes a held opinion is a fact.

Facts are

Some students in the US have been accepted into US medical schools that do not meet the standards of the ADCOM's of the schools. ( recent story of the Florida school is just one that is out in the open) Did you ever wonder of the student who got accepted at XYZ MD school in the states last year with a 2.7 and 25 MCAT? Come on please there is more to it! The US average is 3.5 and 31 MCAT for God's Sake!

Some doctors in my area have broken the law and are paying the price, they all just happen to be US grads. (If you think this is isolated you are wrong and I know I have read some stories of FMG's too)

Fact Some students who have near perfect GPA's and life, get accepted into medical school and think they are "God's Gift" to man kind and what ever they say is right, it has to be because it's them, and this will never change.......


Just because I went to a Caribbean Medical School I'm no less a Medical student nor will be no less a Doctor.

I have a just as much right to post my opinion and post the facts and news I have found just like anyone else.