Forbes: Are Doctors overpaid?

[stressfulatlas]

Are U.S. Doctors Paid Too Much?

I'm aware of all the arguments that go into this: doctors do sacrifice many years in residency, and have tremendous debt load. In this era of cost controls, I think it is a worthwhile discussion of providing free medical school as salaries decline. It's a complicated public policy issue.

I just read this article which was an interesting read. I do think that the currents regarding doctor salaries are changing, and we can expect lower salaries in the future. I have my doctorate in Psychology, and we carry similar debt loads to medical doctors, yet have a salary that is less than half of a medical doctor, and about 1/4 of what a specialist makes. We also have a residency, and our degree takes 5-6 years on average. Think of the poor physical therapist who carries 100k+ in loans and makes 60k on the first job and a "high" of 80-100k.

Being a physician is a sure shot to the top 1% of salaries, in the era of increasing cost controls this is a worthy piece for discussion.

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[Mad Jack]

Are U.S. Doctors Paid Too Much?

I'm aware of all the arguments that go into this: doctors do sacrifice many years in residency, and have tremendous debt load. In this era of cost controls, I think it is a worthwhile discussion of providing free medical school as salaries decline. It's a complicated public policy issue.

I just read this article which was an interesting read. I do think that the currents regarding doctor salaries are changing, and we can expect lower salaries in the future. I have my doctorate in Psychology, and we carry similar debt loads to medical doctors, yet have a salary that is less than half of a medical doctor, and about 1/4 of what a specialist makes. We also have a residency, and our degree takes 5-6 years on average. Think of the poor physical therapist who carries 100k+ in loans and makes 60k on the first job and a "high" of 80-100k.

Being a physician is a sure shot to the top 1% of salaries, in the era of increasing cost controls this is a worthy piece for discussion.

Perhaps you should consider that your degree costs too much, not that we are overpaid. It's absurd that you're taking on an average of 200k for a PsyD. Mathematically, at the salary you make, it's unjustifiable and foolish.

 

[stressfulatlas]

Perhaps you should consider that your degree costs too much, not that we are overpaid. It's absurd that you're taking on an average of 200k for a PsyD. Mathematically, at the salary you make, it's unjustifiable and foolish.

You think my degree is overpriced and my choice to go become a psychologist is "foolish"? I don't. I think my salary should be higher, and you're straying from the point of the thread and the article posted. Please respond to the substance of the article, and avoid tangential stuff, or devolution into ad homs later. If you read the article you would understand the argument being made; and, that doctors in America make 78% more than those in developed countries. Do you think this is a sustainable model? I'd be fine with paying everyone 200-500k, but let's face facts, this is slipping away.
A new social compact like the European one just seems to make some sense to me: no tuition, in exchange for a lower salary. Many factors go into this discussion: Salary differential between general practitioners and specialists. I have specialists in my family making 400-500k. I'd love to pay off 200-300k in loans if I could make that much. Meanwhile GPs are making so much less, it would be good to find ways to increase the salary of GPs since we need so many more of them, while still rewarding those who go into specialties for their extra time spent in the endeavor.
It's undeniable that we're moving away from fee for service reimbursement and to "outcome" reimbursement, per capita reimbursement etc. It makes some sense to get ahead of the game and instead of fighting for maintaining the fee for service model (which isn't going to be around forever) to fight for free or cheap education. In America I'm aware that this is anathema to our "free market" ideas, but it seems like sound healthcare policy. Could be wrong.

 

[Goro]

Are U.S. Doctors Paid Too Much?

I'm aware of all the arguments that go into this: doctors do sacrifice many years in residency, and have tremendous debt load. In this era of cost controls, I think it is a worthwhile discussion of providing free medical school as salaries decline. It's a complicated public policy issue.

I just read this article which was an interesting read. I do think that the currents regarding doctor salaries are changing, and we can expect lower salaries in the future. I have my doctorate in Psychology, and we carry similar debt loads to medical doctors, yet have a salary that is less than half of a medical doctor, and about 1/4 of what a specialist makes. We also have a residency, and our degree takes 5-6 years on average. Think of the poor physical therapist who carries 100k+ in loans and makes 60k on the first job and a "high" of 80-100k.

Being a physician is a sure shot to the top 1% of salaries, in the era of increasing cost controls this is a worthy piece for discussion.

Next articles for Forbes: Are airline pilots overpaid? Are firemen overpaid? Are sanitation engineers overpaid? Are bridge inspectors overpaid?

I personally have no problems with what doctors are paid. I fully understand the burden of loans, but would prefer that your compensation is actually for the responsibilities that you have, not for your loan burdens. After all, no one put a gun to your head to make you be a doctor. But in the end, you're responsible for human lives, and for that, you're worth every penny.

If people want to piss and moan about the cost of Medicine, cast a baleful eye at Big Pharma, who spend more on advertising than research.

 

[DO2015CA]

How do you suppose we pay doctors less and not lose all of our doctors (as hinted at the bottom of his article). The cream of the crop will choose to go into other fields where you can make similar money with a lot less work. Medicine is worth investing the time right now because of the pay in the end. Cut the pay and you will see a large portion of the prospective medical trainees go elsewhere.

In my case, when I get pulled into the cocktail party conversation over physician salaries, it is from people that have no idea what they are talking about. They usually refer to all physicians needing to take a pay cut because they "don't need that yacht when people can't afford health insurance." As a budding pediatrician, they have told me, "are you excited about all that money you'll be paid when you're done". People like to lump all doctors into one category where they can demand lowering salaries uniformly rather than taking the time to gain knowledge on the subject. These same people are the ones that don't look at the medical costs, seeing the hospital CEO's salaries, they just assume since physicians are paid so much that they are the reason for the high cost of medical care.

 

[Major]

Are U.S. Doctors Paid Too Much?

I'm aware of all the arguments that go into this: doctors do sacrifice many years in residency, and have tremendous debt load. In this era of cost controls, I think it is a worthwhile discussion of providing free medical school as salaries decline. It's a complicated public policy issue.

I just read this article which was an interesting read. I do think that the currents regarding doctor salaries are changing, and we can expect lower salaries in the future. I have my doctorate in Psychology, and we carry similar debt loads to medical doctors, yet have a salary that is less than half of a medical doctor, and about 1/4 of what a specialist makes. We also have a residency, and our degree takes 5-6 years on average. Think of the poor physical therapist who carries 100k+ in loans and makes 60k on the first job and a "high" of 80-100k.

Being a physician is a sure shot to the top 1% of salaries, in the era of increasing cost controls this is a worthy piece for discussion.

No.

 

[Mad Jack]

You think my degree is overpriced and my choice to go become a psychologist is "foolish"? I don't. I think my salary should be higher, and you're straying from the point of the thread and the article posted. Please respond to the substance of the article, and avoid tangential stuff, or devolution into ad homs later. If you read the article you would understand the argument being made; and, that doctors in America make 78% more than those in developed countries. Do you think this is a sustainable model? I'd be fine with paying everyone 200-500k, but let's face facts, this is slipping away.
A new social compact like the European one just seems to make some sense to me: no tuition, in exchange for a lower salary. Many factors go into this discussion: Salary differential between general practitioners and specialists. I have specialists in my family making 400-500k. I'd love to pay off 200-300k in loans if I could make that much. Meanwhile GPs are making so much less, it would be good to find ways to increase the salary of GPs since we need so many more of them, while still rewarding those who go into specialties for their extra time spent in the endeavor.
It's undeniable that we're moving away from fee for service reimbursement and to "outcome" reimbursement, per capita reimbursement etc. It makes some sense to get ahead of the game and instead of fighting for maintaining the fee for service model (which isn't going to be around forever) to fight for free or cheap education. In America I'm aware that this is anathema to our "free market" ideas, but it seems like sound healthcare policy. Could be wrong.

Physician salaries only account for 7% of healthcare spending. They are in-line with the earnings of physicians versus other high income individuals in other countries. If you paid physicians literally nothing and made us work as literal slaves, the savings would be wiped out in less than a handful of years (around 3) by the pace of health spending inflation. You want to have real, meaningful reductions in health care spending? Administration accounts for over a third of health care costs. There are ten administrators, managers, and administrative support staff for every physician in the system. Most of them ultimately contribute nothing while making almost as much as a primary care physician (and more than you). Cut some of those people out of the system, and you could save far more than you ever could with physician salary reductions.

The thing many people don't get with these "Let's just pay doctors less" thoughts is that, and this is going to blow your mind, we can leave at any time. Or accept cash only. Or refuse to accept poor payors. There's several other avenues I could take that would pay me a near-physician salary without the hassles, liability, or long hours of medicine, making it easy to take my ball and go home if I don't like the rules of the game. And there's no way that people would force physicians in this country to accept insurance (as it would likely not be kosher per the law as it stands, but we shall see), so I could easily say, "your government scraps are no good here." So there's two sides to the argument for why this isn't an issue with pursuing. One, the cuts don't save anything, as a 30% cut in physician salaries would be erased by the end of the year due to health care spending inflation, but it would drive many physicians either out of practice or out of the insurance marketplace. Furthermore, physician salaries are not out of line in relation to the salaries of foreign physicians versus other high paid individuals in their respective industrialized countries. Two, there's much bigger fish that could net actual savings, such as insurers, pharmaceutical companies, administration, and device manufacturers, all of which make up a much larger slice of the pie than doctor salaries.

Also, my point was that going into 200k of debt for a job that pays as little as a psychologist is financial suicide. I don't believe in the whole "do what you love" BS, a job is a job and there's no reason to screw up the rest of your life's financial security to work one.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

They should make more. @Mad Jack has explained very thoroughly why cutting physician salaries wouldn't make a dent in our county's medical financial troubles.

 

[allantois]

Physicians making less isn't gonna help you make more

 

[LUCPM]

I don't usually think about how much I will be making because it is not the primary reason I'm in this field. However, if someone tells me I'm overpaid, I have nothing else to say except there usually is a reason why certain jobs pay more than others. More appropriate argument should be are xxx are underpaid.

Sent from my SM-G935R4 using Tapatalk

 

[stressfulatlas]

Physicians making less isn't gonna help you make more

Again, ad hominem stick to the article, and substantive discussion based on facts. I would say 7% excess spending in a trillion dollar sector of the economy is a rather significant figure. How much do you think fee for service is costing right now? Have you noticed that it's on the way out, and fast, and we are all moving towards condition based, and per capita based reimbursement. In face of all of this I think it makes sense to move to the European model: free education in exchange for (already) declining reimbursement.
Physicians in the US make 78% more than their counterparts in other developed nations.

Salaries are going to decline. 200-300k+ in debt that many of us in healthcare have to contend with is not sustainable. I think this should be a discussion across the board in different professions where we are saddled with debts.

 

[stressfulatlas]

I don't usually think about how much I will be making because it is not the primary reason I'm in this field. However, if someone tells me I'm overpaid, I have nothing else to say except there usually is a reason why certain jobs pay more than others. More appropriate argument should be are xxx are underpaid.

Sent from my SM-G935R4 using Tapatalk

NO one thinks you shouldn't make much more than a nurse's aide, or a nurse, or than a psychologist for that matter. Physicians make 78% more than counterparts in other 1st world countries.
Lower reimbursement is what we are seeing, not the opposite direction. The salary differential between specialists and general practitioners is too great currently, when you look at other first world countries you do not see a massive shortage of GPs like here, the salary differential is not AS great. We need to incentivize people to become GPs.

Your employ is the most guaranteed path to the top 1%, and even a reconfiguration of that compact, permitting exceptionally high salaries, but not AS high as they are now, and offering free education (as the Europeans have) just isn't enough for you.

For someone who claims he/she didn't choose medicine for cash, you do a really good job of sounding like you did.

 

[stressfulatlas]

Physician salaries only account for 7% of healthcare spending. They are in-line with the earnings of physicians versus other high income individuals in other countries. If you paid physicians literally nothing and made us work as literal slaves, the savings would be wiped out in less than a handful of years (around 3) by the pace of health spending inflation. You want to have real, meaningful reductions in health care spending? Administration accounts for over a third of health care costs. There are ten administrators, managers, and administrative support staff for every physician in the system. Most of them ultimately contribute nothing while making almost as much as a primary care physician (and more than you). Cut some of those people out of the system, and you could save far more than you ever could with physician salary reductions.
View attachment 219606
The thing many people don't get with these "Let's just pay doctors less" thoughts is that, and this is going to blow your mind, we can leave at any time. Or accept cash only. Or refuse to accept poor payors. There's several other avenues I could take that would pay me a near-physician salary without the hassles, liability, or long hours of medicine, making it easy to take my ball and go home if I don't like the rules of the game. And there's no way that people would force physicians in this country to accept insurance (as it would likely not be kosher per the law as it stands, but we shall see), so I could easily say, "your government scraps are no good here." So there's two sides to the argument for why this isn't an issue with pursuing. One, the cuts don't save anything, as a 30% cut in physician salaries would be erased by the end of the year due to health care spending inflation, but it would drive many physicians either out of practice or out of the insurance marketplace. Furthermore, physician salaries are not out of line in relation to the salaries of foreign physicians versus other high paid individuals in their respective industrialized countries. Two, there's much bigger fish that could net actual savings, such as insurers, pharmaceutical companies, administration, and device manufacturers, all of which make up a much larger slice of the pie than doctor salaries.

Also, my point was that going into 200k of debt for a job that pays as little as a psychologist is financial suicide. I don't believe in the whole "do what you love" BS, a job is a job and there's no reason to screw up the rest of your life's financial security to work one.

1- Please stop offering your unsolicited ad hominem on my profession or choice of it. I'm not responding to it further.
2- You typed a LOT of words, but none of them contend with the reality that reimbursement IS slipping already, and salaries ARE going to reflect that and have been since the "golden days" of the fee for service 90s.
3- 7% of healthcare in a trillion dollar sector of our economy is a pretty big deal. Should we cut salaries? No. That's what is going to happen, and is happening as reimbursement shrinks.
4- A redo of the social contract is long in order I think for all of us, not just physicians. IMO this could take form of: universal healthcare scheme, negotiated rates (as in Germany, France, and Switzerland etc) which will lead to lower salaries, and completely tuition free education for healthcare workers in select professions.

 

[Mad Jack]

Again, ad hominem stick to the article, and substantive discussion based on facts. I would say 7% excess spending in a trillion dollar sector of the economy is a rather significant figure. How much do you think fee for service is costing right now? Have you noticed that it's on the way out, and fast, and we are all moving towards condition based, and per capita based reimbursement. In face of all of this I think it makes sense to move to the European model: free education in exchange for (already) declining reimbursement.
Physicians in the US make 78% more than their counterparts in other developed nations.

Salaries are going to decline. 200-300k+ in debt that many of us in healthcare have to contend with is not sustainable. I think this should be a discussion across the board in different professions where we are saddled with debts.

It isn't 7% excess spending- the TOTAL salaries of physicians account for 7% of health care spending. So if you want to cut salaries by 40% and essentially pay us as much as nurse practitioners, you'd save 2.8%, a number that would be wiped out by the end of the same year by the current rate of insurance increases, drug cost increases, etc etc. Why would you want to focus on this minuscule number instead of attacking where real savings could be made? I mean, for every doctor, there's ten administrative positions- that's ridiculous. That's unsustainable. Administration is a fish five times bigger than physician salaries, so I say we start there. If you allowed the government to bargain for pharmaceuticals, it would save more than cutting physician salaries, so there's another good start. And how would you keep physicians in the system? I certainly wouldn't stay after a 40% pay cut. It isn't worth it.

So here's the answer- no, physicians aren't overpaid. They are paid similarly versus high income individuals as physicians in other countries (as high paid individuals in Europe tend to make less than their US counterparts). Lowering pay wouldn't reduce overall healthcare spending by an appreciable amount, and there are much better targets to be found. Finally, it would likely decrease access to care, as many physicians would exit the field.

 

[grapefruit17]

I would have taken a paycut if my school charged way less for tuition. Does the article address the ridiculous cost of tuiton?

Also your psych degree pays 1/4 because you have 1/4 of the responsibility and liability of the typical doctor. That isn't stated to be mean but it is true.

Are NFL athletes overpaid? What reason should be doctors be paid less? On what grounds? The general saying is that someone who works hard to go far should reap the benefits of labor. The people who think doctors are overpaid only look at one aspect, the salary, and don't look at the whole picture of healthcare.

 

[Mad Jack]

1- Please stop offering your unsolicited ad hominem on my profession or choice of it. I'm not responding to it further.
2- You typed a LOT of words, but none of them contend with the reality that reimbursement IS slipping already, and salaries ARE going to reflect that and have been since the "golden days" of the fee for service 90s.
3- 7% of healthcare in a trillion dollar sector of our economy is a pretty big deal. Should we cut salaries? No. That's what is going to happen, and is happening as reimbursement shrinks.
4- A redo of the social contract is long in order I think for all of us, not just physicians. IMO this could take form of: universal healthcare scheme, negotiated rates (as in Germany, France, and Switzerland etc) which will lead to lower salaries, and completely tuition free education for healthcare workers in select professions.

I plan to work outside of the system and not accept insurance of any kind, so all of this really doesn't affect my future practice. But what you're missing is that a large number of physicians will not work for lower wages when they can make more money elsewhere. If you pay less than people are willing to accept to do a given job, you end up with a situation like exists in the Philippines, where there is a physician crisis because they cannot attract decent talent to become physicians. It's harder to get into nursing school than medical school there because nursing offers a better ROI.

 

[stressfulatlas]

It isn't 7% excess spending- the TOTAL salaries of physicians account for 7% of health care spending. So if you want to cut salaries by 40% and essentially pay us as much as nurse practitioners, you'd save 2.8%, a number that would be wiped out by the end of the same year by the current rate of insurance increases, drug cost increases, etc etc. Why would you want to focus on this minuscule number instead of attacking where real savings could be made? I mean, for every doctor, there's ten administrative positions- that's ridiculous. That's unsustainable. Administration is a fish five times bigger than physician salaries, so I say we start there. If you allowed the government to bargain for pharmaceuticals, it would save more than cutting physician salaries, so there's another good start. And how would you keep physicians in the system? I certainly wouldn't stay after a 40% pay cut. It isn't worth it."

We're already seeing it trending in this direction. I am not sure about your figures, but let's assume that you're right. We still have to contend with a massive salary differential between specialists and GPs. From a public policy perspective we want to encourage more GPs. Parts of the ACA attempting to address this problem.

"So here's the answer- no, physicians aren't overpaid. They are paid similarly versus high income individuals as physicians in other countries (as high paid individuals in Europe tend to make less than their US counterparts). Lowering pay wouldn't reduce overall healthcare spending by an appreciable amount, and there are much better targets to be found. Finally, it would likely decrease access to care, as many physicians would exit the field."

Doctors in highly developed wealthy societies make 78% less. Reimbursement is dropping, and so will your salary. It's a fact we have seen across the board, and it's soon going to be hitting you guys. I think the entire system needs to be reworked and we need to have a different compact: free education for healthcare students in select professions at all public institutions, and yes, you'll still be rich, just not as rich in exchange.

 

[stressfulatlas]

I plan to work outside of the system and not accept insurance of any kind, so all of this really doesn't affect my future practice. But what you're missing is that a large number of physicians will not work for lower wages when they can make more money elsewhere. If you pay less than people are willing to accept to do a given job, you end up with a situation like exists in the Philippines, where there is a physician crisis because they cannot attract decent talent to become physicians. It's harder to get into nursing school than medical school there because nursing offers a better ROI.

So you're saying that a majority of doctors will end up working in cash only practices if their salary drops. You do understand supply and demand, right? If there is a mass exodus to cash only practice, then there would be a glut of practitioners offering services, it would only be logical that this would then be a less profitable switch. There is also that pesky notion that we all ended up in healthcare to help others, I accept medicaid clients on a moral basis, but I do so as I can afford to do so. I'm going to have to say it, your path sounds exceptionally greedy.

 

[Mad Jack]

We're already seeing it trending in this direction. I am not sure about your figures, but let's assume that you're right. We still have to contend with a massive salary differential between specialists and GPs. From a public policy perspective we want to encourage more GPs. Parts of the ACA attempting to address this problem.

"So here's the answer- no, physicians aren't overpaid. They are paid similarly versus high income individuals as physicians in other countries (as high paid individuals in Europe tend to make less than their US counterparts). Lowering pay wouldn't reduce overall healthcare spending by an appreciable amount, and there are much better targets to be found. Finally, it would likely decrease access to care, as many physicians would exit the field."

Doctors in highly developed wealthy societies make 78% less. Reimbursement is dropping, and so will your salary. It's a fact we have seen across the board, and it's soon going to be hitting you guys. I think the entire system needs to be reworked and we need to have a different compact: free education for healthcare students in select professions at all public institutions, and yes, you'll still be rich, just not as rich in exchange.

You still haven't addressed physician retention. Nor have you addressed that all hugh earning professions earn more in the United States than their counterparts elsewhere. Nor have you addressed a refusal of physicians to participate in the system (as I already intend to do). I mean, if you're going to cut physician salaries, you'll have to cut all salaries- nurses make 75% more than their British counterparts, psychologists make 125% more (you would only be pulling 31k GBP/40k USD in the NHS). That would involve a lot of savings, but would drive a lot of talented people away from health care, and surely push out a lot of people currently in the field.

 

[Mad Jack]

So you're saying that a majority of doctors will end up working in cash only practices if their salary drops. You do understand supply and demand, right? If there is a mass exodus to cash only practice, then there would be a glut of practitioners offering services, it would only be logical that this would then be a less profitable switch. There is also that pesky notion that we all ended up in healthcare to help others, I accept medicaid clients on a moral basis, but I do so as I can afford to do so. I'm going to have to say it, your path sounds exceptionally greedy.

Some would do cash only, some would leave medicine entirely. Hell, my old CC degree was letting me 60-100k/year, why would I bust my ass in medicine and spend 400k on loans to make the same amount.

 

[stressfulatlas]

I would have taken a paycut if my school charged way less for tuition. Does the article address the ridiculous cost of tuiton?

Also your psych degree pays 1/4 because you have 1/4 of the responsibility and liability of the typical doctor. That isn't stated to be mean but it is true.

That's funny. I have 1/4 the responsibility of a dermatologist running a for cash operation seeing teenagers with acne? I see people who are suicidal, have crisis of all kind, and I would say that's a rather serious responsibility to patient care. I've already told you: I accept Medicaid patients, I do so despite financial disincentive to do so, I'm not in this for money only. I do think it's kinda sad that there is this much difference in pay between specialists and GPs. I also think the assertion made earlier that we will end up like the Phillipines is absurd. The Dutch physicians make 230k Euros on average a year, they also have free education, and, universal healthcare with better outcomes than we have. Why would we end up like a poor Southeast Asian country, but not like France, Germany, or the Netherlands? Could it be because you want to justify your position?
Reading about someone who wants to open a cash only practice kind of makes me sick, but hey that's me. There are people who worry about the bottom dollar, but I believe this is a tiny minority of clinicians.
Mad Jack "Critically Caring" for rich people only.

 

[stressfulatlas]

Some would do cash only, some would leave medicine entirely. Hell, my old CC degree was letting me 60-100k/year, why would I bust my ass in medicine and spend 400k on loans to make the same amount.

Again, did you read ANYTHING that has been written here? I think I probably said that education should be entirely free for select healthcare programs at state universities about 10 times.

 

[Lawpy]

Wait what is the point of this thread? OP presented a questionable article with questionable arguments, and when @Mad Jack @AnatomyGrey12 and others provided valid, supported counterarguments, OP goes in the defensive and starts attacking people.

 

[stressfulatlas]

T

You still haven't addressed physician retention. Nor have you addressed that all hugh earning professions earn more in the United States than their counterparts elsewhere. Nor have you addressed a refusal of physicians to participate in the system (as I already intend to do). I mean, if you're going to cut physician salaries, you'll have to cut all salaries- nurses make 75% more than their British counterparts, psychologists make 125% more (you would only be pulling 31k GBP/40k USD in the NHS). That would involve a lot of savings, but would drive a lot of talented people away from health care, and surely push out a lot of people currently in the field.

I would gladly make less money in exchange for 0 debt load, guaranteed high quality healthcare, and universal tuition free higher education for my children. That's how they do it in France, Norway, the Netherlands etc. May I know why you have singled out Britain as a model? Meanwhile you're ignoring the hefty salaries in France, Germany, and the Netherlands, all those models spend a fraction of what we do, you still get paid a lot, just not as much. You should make more than me, even much more depending on what you do. That's not the debate. The social contract in this country should be up for discussion, the model we have now just isn't cutting mustard.

 

[stressfulatlas]

.

 

[stressfulatlas]

How is this for a not "questionable" argument. The Dutch, French, Germans, Swedish, etc all have universal healthcare schemes, education is tuition free, and yep, you make less. I'd be completely fine with that compact. You've made assertions that we have problems with retention to deal with, and how have the French and Germans managed to not only deal with this, but spend a fraction of what we spend and end up with better outcomes in key areas like infant mortality, and immunizations?

My source is questionable, my responses are "questionable" because you don't like the viewpoint. Meanwhile you're swimming up a stream with a guy who wants a designer practice for cash only. This actually illustrates the problem with why some (a tiny minority) choose to be in healthcare, quick buck over patient care.

 

[grapefruit17]

That's funny. I have 1/4 the responsibility of a dermatologist running a for cash operation seeing teenagers with acne? I see people who are suicidal, have crisis of all kind, and I would say that's a rather serious responsibility to patient care. I've already told you: I accept Medicaid patients, I do so despite financial disincentive to do so, I'm not in this for money only. I do think it's kinda sad that there is this much difference in pay between specialists and GPs. I also think the assertion made earlier that we will end up like the Phillipines is absurd. The Dutch physicians make 230k Euros on average a year, they also have free education, and, universal healthcare with better outcomes than we have. Why would we end up like a poor Southeast Asian country, but not like France, Germany, or the Netherlands? Could it be because you want to justify your position?
Reading about someone who wants to open a cash only practice kind of makes me sick, but hey that's me. There are people who worry about the bottom dollar, but I believe this is a tiny minority of clinicians.
Mad Jack "Critically Caring" for rich people only.

The fact that you think dermatologists only treat people with acne makes me realize you're in over your head. Dermatologists deal with different types of cancer, and have a HUGE array of knowledge. People overstate how easy it is to be one. The people who match dermatology are top of their class with high board scores. They worked hard to be where they are, extremely hard. Being a dermatologist takes more work and effort then being psychologist.

And this is from someone who is going into psychiatry residency.

You are trying to portray yourself as altruistic and asking why people can't be like you. You post this on a forum that consists of doctors and pretty much tell them they're wrong and should think how you think. That tells me you came into this looking for an argument.

You compare our healthcare system to other countries but fail to see how different they are. Difference in population and overall health. America is one of the most unhealthy nations. Doctors in America don't just treat one disease per patient, they manage several problems at once with a single patient.

You have your opinion of how things be and you're essentially telling people how they should act. I disagree with your opinion.

 

[Coltuna]

My source is questionable, my responses are "questionable" because you don't like the viewpoint. Meanwhile you're swimming up a stream with a guy who wants a designer practice for cash only. This actually illustrates the problem with why some (a tiny minority) choose to be in healthcare, quick buck over patient care.

You created an account just to post an article on how U.S. doctors are paid too much on a forum comprised of some of the most neurotic/dedicated pre-medical students in the U.S.

... You had to see this coming.

 

[stressfulatlas]

The fact that you think dermatologists only treat people with acne makes me realize you're in over your head. Dermatologists deal with different types of cancer, and have a HUGE array of knowledge. People overstate how easy it is to be one. The people who match dermatology are top of their class with high board scores. They worked hard to be where they are, extremely hard. Being a dermatologist takes more work and effort then being psychologist.

And this is from someone who is going into psychiatry residency.

You are trying to portray yourself as altruistic and asking why people can't be like you. You post this on a forum that consists of doctors and pretty much tell them they're wrong and should think how you think. That tells me you came into this looking for an argument.

You compare our healthcare system to other countries but fail to see how different they are. Difference in population and overall health. America is one of the most unhealthy nations. Doctors in America don't just treat one disease per patient, they manage several problems at once with a single patient.

You have your opinion of how things be and you're essentially telling people how they should act. I disagree with your opinion.

Are you dense? I said CASH ONLY designer practices. Think cosmetic surgery? Of course dermatologists do valuable work, I responded to someone who was saying I have 1/4 the responsibility of a physician. That is an absurd comment. Have you ever worked with patients in a mental health setting? If so, you would understand just how stupid that comment is.

How does a difference in population size make any difference to the concept of universal healthcare? Also, this isn't just about "health", are you really not aware that we are down there among developing nations when it comes to infant mortality? Sounds dense.

 

[Mad Jack]

T


I would gladly make less money in exchange for 0 debt load, guaranteed high quality healthcare, and universal tuition free higher education for my children. That's how they do it in France, Norway, the Netherlands etc. You should make more than me, even much more depending on what you do. That's not the debate. The social contract in this country should be up for discussion, the model we have now just isn't cutting mustard.

The social contract argument is nonsense. This is a nation that values the individual over the group, we're not Europe.

That's funny. I have 1/4 the responsibility of a dermatologist running a for cash operation seeing teenagers with acne? I see people who are suicidal, have crisis of all kind, and I would say that's a rather serious responsibility to patient care. I've already told you: I accept Medicaid patients, I do so despite financial disincentive to do so, I'm not in this for money only. I do think it's kinda sad that there is this much difference in pay between specialists and GPs. I also think the assertion made earlier that we will end up like the Phillipines is absurd. The Dutch physicians make 230k Euros on average a year, they also have free education, and, universal healthcare with better outcomes than we have. Why would we end up like a poor Southeast Asian country, but not like France, Germany, or the Netherlands? Could it be because you want to justify your position?
Reading about someone who wants to open a cash only practice kind of makes me sick, but hey that's me. There are people who worry about the bottom dollar, but I believe this is a tiny minority of clinicians.
Mad Jack "Critically Caring" for rich people only.

I never said I won't have a panel of free or discount care, merely that I'll only take cash. I can make more while having a 50% sliding scale and charity panel than I can by having a 100% insured panel, and my patients will have more time with me and thus higher quality care because I won't be filling out a million forms a day wasting time that could be spent with my patients.

 

[stressfulatlas]

You created an account just to post an article on how U.S. doctors are paid too much on a forum comprised of some of the most neurotic/dedicated pre-medical students in the U.S.

... You had to see this coming.

Sure, is that the consensus here? Like the guy who is cash only? You too? Is that what you guys are doing here? If that is a more widespread sentiment, it only reinforces my viewpoint. It's kinda sick to actually read.

 

[stressfulatlas]

The social contract argument is nonsense. This is a nation that values the individual over the group, we're not Europe.

I never said I won't have a panel of free or discount care, merely that I'll only take cash. I can make more while having a 50% sliding scale and charity panel than I can by having a 100% insured panel, and my patients will have more time with me and thus higher quality care because I won't be filling out a million forms a day wasting time that could be spent with my patients.

Hah. Hahahaha. Yeah, right.

 

[stressfulatlas]

"The social contract argument is nonsense. This is a nation that values the individual over the group, we're not Europe."

Argumentem ad Absurdam. So, since we are NOT Europe, we can't implement an idea that works, because we are not Europe. We are America, therefore we must use an idea that doesn't work. Universal healthcare and free education can't be mandated, because we are American.
Meanwhile you use public parks, public roads, public loans, public everytihng, but you think we are just individualistic. This is a particularly vexing American fallacy, we are all socialists when it comes to certain things like social security, Medicare etc.
Absolutely absurd.

 

[738177]

T


I would gladly make less money in exchange for 0 debt load, guaranteed high quality healthcare, and universal tuition free higher education for my children. That's how they do it in France, Norway, the Netherlands etc. May I know why you have singled out Britain as a model? Meanwhile you're ignoring the hefty salaries in France, Germany, and the Netherlands, all those models spend a fraction of what we do, you still get paid a lot, just not as much. You should make more than me, even much more depending on what you do. That's not the debate. The social contract in this country should be up for discussion, the model we have now just isn't cutting mustard.

Based on this current model, considering your position on physician salaries, do you also consider Psychologists to be overpaid?

 

[Mad Jack]

Are you dense? I said CASH ONLY designer practices. Think cosmetic surgery? Of course dermatologists do valuable work, I responded to someone who was saying I have 1/4 the responsibility of a physician. That is an absurd comment. Have you ever worked with patients in a mental health setting? If so, you would understand just how stupid that comment is.

How does a difference in population size make any difference to the concept of universal healthcare? Also, this isn't just about "health", are you really not aware that we are down there among developing nations when it comes to infant mortality? Sounds dense.

Cosmetic dermatologists are the minority, not the norm. They're far less than a percentage point of the physician population, and they generally are not taking insurance and are doing work that wouldn't be covered anyway and patients would still be taking cash for. Try and compare yourself against the average, not the bizarre outliers. The average physician has much more responsibility and liability than you. Even the average dermatologist, who is fighting melanoma and dealing with invasive and disfiguring skin cancers and conditions that will drastically alter the course of the patient's life.

 

[LUCPM]

Sounds like you are bitter for some reasons over a nice memorial day weekend, or nice try trolling.

Sent from my SM-G935R4 using Tapatalk

 

[stressfulatlas]

Cosmetic dermatologists are the minority, not the norm. They're far less than a percentage point of the physician population, and they generally are not taking insurance and are doing work that wouldn't be covered anyway and patients would still be taking cash for. Try and compare yourself against the average, not the bizarre outliers. The average physician has much more responsibility and liability than you. Even the average dermatologist, who is fighting melanoma and dealing with invasive and disfiguring skin cancers and conditions that will drastically alter the course of the patient's life.

"Critically caring" now fork over the money, cash only.

 

[DO2015CA]

Quit using the word GP if you want people to take you seriously. It's an antiquated term that only the layperson uses.

 

[stressfulatlas]

Cosmetic dermatologists are the minority, not the norm. They're far less than a percentage point of the physician population, and they generally are not taking insurance and are doing work that wouldn't be covered anyway and patients would still be taking cash for. Try and compare yourself against the average, not the bizarre outliers. The average physician has much more responsibility and liability than you. Even the average dermatologist, who is fighting melanoma and dealing with invasive and disfiguring skin cancers and conditions that will drastically alter the course of the patient's life.

Have you ever worked in a mental health setting? I'm curious how you have quantified that I have 1/4 the responsibility to my patients than the average physician. It kind of sounds like you pulled that out of your ass. I duno, because you did.

 

[stressfulatlas]

Quit using the word GP if you want people to take you seriously. It's an antiquated term that only the layperson uses.

I actually grew up in Britain. Sorry that I use a term used in a country that provided you with the English language. I will stick to GP.

 

[LUCPM]

Stop feeding this thtead, can't win psychologist.

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[Domperidone]

I can't figure out where OP wants this discussion going either.
or if it's even intended to be a two-sided discussion.
Or maybe I missed what the definition of discussion is.
I thought it was an exchange of ideas.
No? My bad..

 

[stressfulatlas]

Ah, British psychologis

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Yes, they have psychologists in Britain also. Fascinating conversation regarding cross cultural differences. I've been in the US since I was 18, and I'm far from 18 now, married, and have children. Excuse me if I retain some of my heritage though when I spell harbour or say GP.

 

[stressfulatlas]

Eh, the discussion is over. I lost interest after encountering a person setting out to open a cash only practice. That is revolting. I know psychologists who think that is fine. I am one of many clinicians attending the next APA conference, and we have a committee discussing the implications of this becoming more widespread. It's problematic for many reasons.

 

[grapefruit17]

Best response: do you even have any experience in mental health?

I mean, it's not like I mentioned matching into psychiatry residency.

Nope, no idea what mental health is.

 

[gyngyn]

This would be a good time to dial down the animosity, folks.

 

[stressfulatlas]

Best response: do you even have any experience in mental health?

I mean, it's not like I mentioned matching into psychiatry residency.

Nope, no idea what mental health is.

Wow a resident is telling me how a psychologist with 20 years experience has the responsibilities 1/4 of what any medical doctor has. This is kind of like a xyz measuring contest now, it's absurd.
Stick to letting us all know how ethical your commitment to patient care is, when you are actively planning on serving people rich enough to pay you in cash only. I find that repugnant. I'm not sure what medical program you are in, but I wonder if that is normal in medical school to muse about that so openly.
You're worked up because someone told you you should be damn rich, but maybe just a little less rich, and get a free education. You want to milk the golden calf. Go for it. I see a LOT of greed going on.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Many factors at play here:

1. We live in a world of supply and demand. Not everyone can handle becoming a doctor.
2. There is growing class envy and resentment in America. Those at the bottom want to bring the successful down rather than do the hard work to get themselves up. This is most prevalent with the college-educated poor that decided that somehow their degree in basket weaving was going to pay off and then had to come to the real world where it doesn't. They revert back to their college marxist indoctrination. Many mid-levels fall into this class-envy category.
3. Politicians want to slam doctors salaries so they can pretend they were competent and somehow save money on their budget.

We need to look out for ourselves, otherwise they will run us over.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Wow a resident is telling me how a psychologist with 20 years experience has the responsibilities 1/4 of what any medical doctor has. This is kind of like a xyz measuring contest now, it's absurd.
Stick to letting us all know how ethical your commitment to patient care is, when you are actively planning on serving people rich enough to pay you in cash only. I find that repugnant. I'm not sure what medical program you are in, but I wonder if that is normal in medical school to muse about that so openly.
You're worked up because someone told you you should be damn rich, but maybe just a little less rich, and get a free education. You want to milk the golden calf. Go for it. I see a LOT of greed going on.

Yes, they do. That resident knows what medication management and caseload means. If you're a psychologist, congrats on sitting on your ass for 45 minutes with each patient to talk about their feelings. We actually have to do important things.

 

[stressfulatlas]

Many factors at play here:

1. We live in a world of supply and demand. Not everyone can handle becoming a doctor.
2. There is growing class envy and resentment in America. Those at the bottom want to bring the successful down rather than do the hard work to get themselves up. This is most prevalent with the college-educated poor that decided that somehow their degree in basket weaving was going to pay off and then had to come to the real world where it doesn't. They revert back to their college marxist indoctrination. Many mid-levels fall into this class-envy category.
3. Politicians want to slam doctors salaries so they can pretend they were competent and somehow save money on their budget.

We need to look out for ourselves, otherwise they will run us over.

Hah. Marxism. Yes, expecting that people in a western first world country have access to education and healthcare is very marxist. Nevermind that students in the 1950s and 60s went to school for nearly free at state universities, and a GI bill paved the way for an entire generation to reach success. Was that marxism too?
I knew that even smaller side of wealth made people self interested, I just had no idea how deep this greed is. You want to "protect" yourself from people who want healthcare, education, and access to care? I'd never want you to be my doctor, gross.