foreign language

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I'm currently a pre-med sophomore, and I'm thinking about a foreign language to take for the upcoming years. I've taken French in HS, and I was really set on taking Japanese as a foreign language in college.

But my pragmatic side got to me, and I realize that it really isn't that helpful considering I don't think I will ever live in Japan, and the language isn't really expanding. Although I do love the culture, and everything about it.

Spanish seems to be a must, not only is it the second most widely spoken language in the world (I think something like 339 million speak it), but it's also widely spoken in the US (where I live, and will most likely continue to live) and especially in cities like NYC (where I live.) It seems vital to know as a doctor, and just seems to be the most realistic language to take. I doubt it will be too hard considering my french/english knowledge.

I'm really just debating between these two, but I'm still very open to any other language. My school offers quite a variety, and I'm even thinking about continuing French.

I would like to hear some of your opinions regarding this opportunity to learn a new language.

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Don't take spanish because you feel obligated to. Chances are, while translators aren't great for medicine, you'll be able to find someone who does speak Spanish to help you with spanish speaking patients. Rather, take something because you're interested in it. You'll find the class more enjoyable, and will likely learn more as a result.
 
I strongly disagree. Translators are not an optimal medium for communication in a medical setting. I've already experienced this in medical school. Better yet, you will be able to better bond and connect with your patient if are able to personally speak to them in their own language. I regret now the many years of study I devoted to French because it is essentially useless for practice in the US. True, it might have been great at the time to have been learning something for the sake of learning, but I would trade all of that and more to speak Spanish now as I can French. Unless you plan to work elsewhere in the world with different linguistic groups, you simply cannot make a better choice than Spanish as a future healthcare provider in the US. You're right, your years of learning French will help in picking up Spanish (at least in my experience).

Trust me, take Spanish and don't look back.
 
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With all due respect, I'll have to disagree with the good holographic doctor. :cool:

Spanish is useful in general, and specifically useful for physicians. But, but, but-- if you're not especially interested in the language or the culture, don't take it just for the sake of taking it!

Learning a language is a chance to get acquainted with an entirely novel culture... if you are fascinated by Japanese, don't pass up the opportunity to explore that interest by filling up that time with a "place filler" class you don't care for.

And if that argument doesn't fly, think of it this way: Spanish is common. It's not considered hard to learn, and it doesn't look that impressive on your CV or application. A "less typical" language like Japanese, in contrast, seems much more interesting, and helps to round you out as an applicant with broad interests, who enjoys challenges.

Well, just my two cents. And if you're still looking for suggestions, how about Chinese? Similar to Japanese somewhat, but yet, perhaps more "practical". Anyhow, it's "all the rage" at the moment... and for the foreseeable years to come. It's really the language of the future ;) I'm working on Arabic, personally, but not out of any practical consideration, so much as interest. It's simply too much fun. In the end, I think it's worth it to study a language for the pure fun of it... you'll get more out of the time spent.
 
Edited to leave my personal views out of it.

I agree with some of the others and would continue on with what YOU like. I myself have considered Latin a lot lately since it could prove very helpful in my pre-med classes.
 
Latin was a great language to learn. It was fun. But as for it being helpful for your science classes? No. It is much better at increasing your vocabulary. It is a great feeling to see a word you've never seen before, and be able to discern its meaning based on several latin roots.

Besides, where else can you learn about a carriage stuck in a ditch for 7 weeks?
 
Latin was a great language to learn. It was fun. But as for it being helpful for your science classes? No. It is much better at increasing your vocabulary. It is a great feeling to see a word you've never seen before, and be able to discern its meaning based on several latin roots.

Besides, where else can you learn about a carriage stuck in a ditch for 7 weeks?

Was that with Cornelia and Sextus and Cornelius stuck in the carriage with parents Cornelius and Aurelia?
 
Latin was a great language to learn. It was fun. But as for it being helpful for your science classes? No. It is much better at increasing your vocabulary. It is a great feeling to see a word you've never seen before, and be able to discern its meaning based on several latin roots.

Besides, where else can you learn about a carriage stuck in a ditch for 7 weeks?

I meant it more like.. you're taking a test and they want to know about a disease called 'Asquintare' (totally just made that up). You've taken Latin for a few years and you know 'Asquin' means xxx and 'tare' means xxx and you're able to figure out what it means, much like you just said. I was just more applying it to medical terms and the like.
 
Was that with Cornelia and Sextus and Cornelius stuck in the carriage with parents Cornelius and Aurelia?

Oh yes. Ecce Romani. The books are on my bookshelf.
 
I meant it more like.. you're taking a test and they want to know about a disease called 'Asquintare' (totally just made that up). You've taken Latin for a few years and you know 'Asquin' means xxx and 'tare' means xxx and you're able to figure out what it means, much like you just said. I was just more applying it to medical terms and the like.

And if I have a pain in my "shallow vinegar bowl". where does it hurt? ;)
 
I strongly disagree. Translators are not an optimal medium for communication in a medical setting. I've already experienced this in medical school. Better yet, you will be able to better bond and connect with your patient if are able to personally speak to them in their own language. I regret now the many years of study I devoted to French because it is essentially useless for practice in the US. True, it might have been great at the time to have been learning something for the sake of learning, but I would trade all of that and more to speak Spanish now as I can French. Unless you plan to work elsewhere in the world with different linguistic groups, you simply cannot make a better choice than Spanish as a future healthcare provider in the US. You're right, your years of learning French will help in picking up Spanish (at least in my experience).

Trust me, take Spanish and don't look back.

Sorry, but I totally disagree. (And, yes, I do know Spanish, and on my rotations, I have had several patients who speak only Spanish.)

The problem with this is that, unless you take MANY years of Spanish, or study it with a good deal of intensity, studying Spanish in college doesn't really help you in the hospital.

Being able to competently talk to patients in Spanish requires...
1) the ability to understand several different accents. You'll get patients from Mexico, Puerto Rico, Guatemala, Spain, Argentina, Colombia, Venezuela. All of these countries have very distinct accents, and some are difficult to understand.
2) an extremely good knowledge of local slang. Mexican slang is very different from Spanish slang, which is totally different from Puerto Rican slang.
3) a very good knowledge of the language. It's one thing to learn Spanish by talking to young, healthy people who are your age. It's another thing to try to talk to an elderly, frail, feverish, delirious Mexican woman who is too weak to talk - she can only mumble. (I speak from personal experience - I have just such a patient now! :laugh:)

You can bond with your patients by showing them that you are thinking of them, even if you don't speak the language very well. Stopping by to say hi, showing up with a cheery smile on your face each morning, a comforting pat on the shoulder - these can work wonders. Plus, (specifically for Spanish), just knowing the language isn't necessarily enough to make your patients feel comfortable with you. Hispanic cultures put a lot of emphasis on body language, so you need to know the culture as well as the language.

I'm currently a pre-med sophomore, and I'm thinking about a foreign language to take for the upcoming years. I've taken French in HS, and I was really set on taking Japanese as a foreign language in college.

But my pragmatic side got to me, and I realize that it really isn't that helpful considering I don't think I will ever live in Japan, and the language isn't really expanding. Although I do love the culture, and everything about it.

Spanish seems to be a must, not only is it the second most widely spoken language in the world (I think something like 339 million speak it), but it's also widely spoken in the US (where I live, and will most likely continue to live) and especially in cities like NYC (where I live.) It seems vital to know as a doctor, and just seems to be the most realistic language to take. I doubt it will be too hard considering my french/english knowledge.

I'm really just debating between these two, but I'm still very open to any other language. My school offers quite a variety, and I'm even thinking about continuing French.

I would like to hear some of your opinions regarding this opportunity to learn a new language.

Study what you love. Then you'll really learn it well. If you like Japanese - go for it! :)
 
Or, take both Spanish and Japanese :D. You're only a sophomore, so you have plenty of time (summers!) left.

Start out with the Japanese if you have the true interest and then take a few Spanish classes as you are able to at least become familiar with how the language works and basic stuff. Then you could potentially volunteer somewhere where you could try to apply what little Spanish you do know and learn a great deal more in a clinic setting.
 
If you take Japanese b/c you're into anime/manga/MMORPGs or any combination of the three, then you better choose another foreign language. The last time I checked, ADCOM people tend not to admit geeks.

Spanish is useful, and you don't really need to be proficient/fluent to help others either. If you live in the US today, you should know at least SOME Spanish.

Chinese is useful if you're thinking of going into business/finance/law. If so, then take simplified Chinese at your university.
 
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I came into college with 2yrs of french under my belt from HS. I thought I ought to do spanish for med school, but I was really interested in taking Chinese. Practicality initially prevailed, but I ended up taking one semester of Spanish and 5 of Chinese. Go figure.
 
taking language courses really will do little to help you actually be able to function in that language.

I tested out of 3 semesters of French in college, but when I moved to a francophone country, I soon learned how useless these were.

Yes, I knew some vocabulary and some of the rules of grammar, but knowing a language is a lot more than that. I really believe that it takes complete immersion for an extended period of time to actually learn. After 2 years plus a year and a half of marriage to a native French speaker, I still don't feel fluent. I can function, but not nearly at the level that I do in English.

With that being said, take what you want.
 
I appreciate the responses, everyone.

I understand that I won't achieve fluency just from taking 4 semesters of a language, but I will have 4 semester's worth of knowledge and will at least know more about a language than I do right now.

While it is true that more medical school applicants will have knowledge of the Spanish language than Japanese, and thus will let me stand out in a sense, I don't think it will affect too much of their decision and I see Spanish more of something I should know rather than something I can put on my application.

Chinese seems too difficult, unfortunately I'm not willing to spend that much time on a foreign language class.

I'm afraid I'm still leaning on the practical, and will probably end up taking Spanish.
 
Spanish is only the fourth most spoken language in the world. Why don't you learn chinese? It is spoken by 1050 Million people, twice the number of English speakers. Go, learn chinese, i bet it will get you into med school.
 
:laugh:
Was that with Cornelia and Sextus and Cornelius stuck in the carriage with parents Cornelius and Aurelia?

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I used that text in sixth grade!!! the school i went to made you take three years of highschool latin. .. i mean two... i took the third one just cuz.
 
If you take Japanese b/c you're into anime/manga/MMORPGs or any combination of the three, then you better choose another foreign language. The last time I checked, ADCOM people tend not to admit geeks.

:lol::lol::lol::lol:Ohhh snap!
 
I understand that I won't achieve fluency just from taking 4 semesters of a language, but I will have 4 semester's worth of knowledge and will at least know more about a language than I do right now.

While it is true that more medical school applicants will have knowledge of the Spanish language than Japanese, and thus will let me stand out in a sense, I don't think it will affect too much of their decision and I see Spanish more of something I should know rather than something I can put on my application.

Chinese seems too difficult, unfortunately I'm not willing to spend that much time on a foreign language class.

I'm afraid I'm still leaning on the practical, and will probably end up taking Spanish.

Knowing Spanish didn't help me get into medical school at all. The only place where it made a significant difference was Texas. Even the schools in New York didn't seem particularly appreciative.

And knowing "some" Spanish in the clinic or on the patient wards is basically equivalent to knowing no Spanish at all. It really does take a fair amount of comfort before you can responsibly say that you can see a patient without a translator.

It's kind of appalling, sometimes, to see doctors who forge ahead without a translator, but armed with only a limited knowledge of Spanish (i.e. probably about 3-4 semesters). 4 semesters of Spanish isn't enough to enable you to get informed consent from a patient, and it isn't enough to explain most medical conditions.

Maybe you could take both Japanese and Spanish. If you pick up Spanish quickly, then that's fine - but if you know that you won't achieve competency (much less fluency) in Spanish in 4 semesters, then why not spend the time studying something that really interests you?

Spanish is useful, and you don't really need to be proficient/fluent to help others either. If you live in the US today, you should know at least SOME Spanish.

As I said earlier, just knowing "some" Spanish, when you're on rotations, doesn't really help much.

You can't get proper informed consent with spotty Spanish. If you can't reliably and thoroughly describe what the side effects are, or explain why you're getting the procedure done, then you're not doing your patients any favors. (It's hard enough to do this well in English, doing it in Spanish is doubly hard.)

There was a couple from South America whose 3 month old baby had meningitis. The doctor insisted that she could communicate without a translator, but when the med student (who actually did speak Spanish fluently) asked the couple, they admitted that they had no idea what the doctor was talking about. The doctor's Spanish was so elementary, and her accent was so poor, that they couldn't understand her very well. The couple thought, for 2 weeks, that their baby just had a bad headache and cold - they had no idea that their baby was probably going to die.

You could also argue that if you live in the US today, then you should know at least some Chinese - considering how many Chinese immigrants we have as well.
 
And if I have a pain in my "shallow vinegar bowl". where does it hurt? ;)

Hip/acetabulum?

OP, take japanese since you're motivated to. Spanish comes easy to native english speakers with a propensity for learning foreign languages.
 
Just a question for people who took a few semesters of Spanish because they thought it would be useful when working with patients - aren't you afraid that you're going to forget a lot of it by the time you actually start rotations? You'll have 2 years where you'll barely ever use Spanish (if you end up using it at all) - how will you keep it fresh in your head?
 
And if I have a pain in my "shallow vinegar bowl". where does it hurt? ;)

Oh geez, don't say that. You don't really have a pain in your acetabulum, do you?

I'm on an onc service right now, and the first thing that went through my head was "multiple myeloma." :scared:
 
Just a question for people who took a few semesters of Spanish because they thought it would be useful when working with patients - aren't you afraid that you're going to forget a lot of it by the time you actually start rotations? You'll have 2 years where you'll barely ever use Spanish (if you end up using it at all) - how will you keep it fresh in your head?

I took Spanish in High School and had a manual labor job for a few years after that.

That was four years ago and I haven't lost much...it's like riding a bike.
 
I took Spanish in High School and had a manual labor job for a few years after that.

That was four years ago and I haven't lost much...it's like riding a bike.

Do you use Spanish every day now? How do you know that you haven't lost much?

I'm asking because I feel like I lost a little bit of Spanish during MS1 and MS2 - although I tried to keep it up by talking to friends from Mexico as much as possible.
 
Don't take spanish because you feel obligated to. Chances are, while translators aren't great for medicine, you'll be able to find someone who does speak Spanish to help you with spanish speaking patients. Rather, take something because you're interested in it. You'll find the class more enjoyable, and will likely learn more as a result.

Well, while I'm all for taking stuff you are interested in, you actually will be able to use spanish daily in medicine. As a med student, I've already had to cede interesting patients to spanish speaking peers, and watch blankly as spanish speaking residents or attendings interviewed patients. So sure, there will be someone who speaks spanish who can take care of the patient, but as a result, you may get bumped out of the room/procedure. Don't expect a translator to get called in when there's likely someone else on the team who would be happy to snag something interesting and give you one of their run of the mill patients in trade. This is the second most prevalent language in the US, and predicted to be the first before too long. It won't get you into med school, but sure wouldn't hurt to speak a little of it once you are in.
 
Well, while I'm all for taking stuff you are interested in, you actually will be able to use spanish daily in medicine. As a med student, I've already had to cede interesting patients to spanish speaking peers, and watch blankly as spanish speaking residents or attendings interviewed patients. So sure, there will be someone who speaks spanish who can take care of the patient, but as a result, you may get bumped out of the room/procedure. Don't expect a translator to get called in when there's likely someone else on the team who would be happy to snag something interesting and give you one of their run of the mill patients in trade. This is the second most prevalent language in the US, and predicted to be the first before too long. It won't get you into med school, but sure wouldn't hurt to speak a little of it once you are in.

While I understand the irritating sport of fighting for interesting patients, I don't think it would be fair for you to take an interesting Spanish-speaking patient if your Spanish speaking skills are fairly elementary. If your classmate speaks it more fluently than you do (and is reasonably competent when it comes to physical exam, etc.), I think it's better for patient care to let your classmate take that patient.

Or else the resident on the service should just keep up a strict "batting order" when it comes to admitting patients - if it's your turn, then you take that patient, no matter what language you speak.

In any case, it's very frustrating to hear fellow medical students (who claimed to speak Spanish very well) interviewing their patients on rounds - and know that they're saying something that is totally, absolutely wrong, (or is poorly interpreted) and not be able to speak up and correct them. I think that when you study Spanish, exaggerating your ability in an effort to impress people is fairly easy, but it can really do the patient a disservice.

I took graduate-level courses that were conducted in Spanish. I read Spanish newspapers and books, listen to Spanish music, and watch Spanish movies. But explaining to a patient in Spanish that we will need to place a perc nephrostomy tube, do a Whipple, or do an ABG is still a fairly daunting task. I mean, come on - it's not easy to do these things in English!
 
I'm going to go with the idea of taking Spanish. I started taking it when I was 12, and when I finished my minor my soph year in college, I was fluent. Then, I didn't use it except for random trips to Spain or Mexico where I could by. On OB/gyn and Family Med, it was so much nicer being able to not have to worry about finding a translator if one wasn't immediately available (eg rounding at 6am) or if I got tired of waiting for the 1 in the clinic. However, I had forgotten SO much of my Spanish, so I just told the patients that my Spanish was very bad, and they just seemed to appreciate that I would even try to speak to them in their language, if I didn't understand something immediately, they'd slow down or repeat it. Fortunately, in a way, I can still understand spoken written and spoken Spanish much better than speaking it myself, so I speak with a good accent but a relatively low vocabulary that helps me not use big medical terms.

I also took German in college because I wanted to and minored in that as well. I've found 1 German speaking patient who spoke English, and a few German speaking attendings that I kinda practice basic conversation with.
 
Hip/acetabulum?

Bing, bing, bing. You win. I wondered how long I'd wait for someone to come up with that one. The hip socket is shaped like a Roman vinegar bowl.

Oh geez, don't say that. You don't really have a pain in your acetabulum, do you?

Not at the moment but I did when I was pregnant. Loose ligaments & all that.

I'm on an onc service right now, and the first thing that went through my head was "multiple myeloma." :scared:

Spoken by a true medical student. ;)
 
Or else the resident on the service should just keep up a strict "batting order" when it comes to admitting patients - if it's your turn, then you take that patient, no matter what language you speak.

It doesn't ever work that way. If you can't talk to the patient, you can't take that patient. We aren't talking about a single time when you need to take a history and can wait for a translator. We are often talking about checking in with a patient every morning and evening, being there for procedures, frequently at times when there are no foreign language speakers around. (There are telephone and internet translator options, but this is far from ideal in most med student situations). Being able to struggle through with elementary language skills is probably adequate; staring blankly at a patient isn't. You rarely have the info you need based on labs and visible attributes -- you need to talk to the patient, get updates, get spoken info. Where does it hurt, what does it feel like, any changes, are you eating, are you passing gas -- all that stuff. So sure, I agree that having good language skills is ideal, and that if someone is a great spanish speaker they should get dibs on the spanish speaking patients. But it's rare enough to find an elementary spanish speaking med student, let alone a fluent one. So if you have those elementary skills, you are not usually going to have to cede the interesting patient. All I'm saying.
 
I understand that I won't achieve fluency just from taking 4 semesters of a language, but I will have 4 semester's worth of knowledge and will at least know more about a language than I do right now.

Very true. Four semesters won't get you very far, but if you spend a summer or two in Mexico or S. America, you could become very proficient. There's only so much you can learn in a classroom; complete immersion is the best way to learn a language, and in a relatively short time frame. Not to pressure an already stressed premed, but my study abroad experience has been perhaps the highlight of my college career.
 
This thread reminds me of shadowing an Ob/Gyn a couple years ago. The doctor saw a Mexican woman who I believe needed a hysterectomy. This woman spoke very limited English, so she brought her 13-year-old son to translate. Yikes.
 
It doesn't ever work that way. If you can't talk to the patient, you can't take that patient.

So what does your team do when the patient speaks a language that NO ONE else on the team speaks? For instance, what if your patient only speaks Arabic - and no one on your team speaks Arabic? Does your chief refuse to take that patient on the service? Do you deny that patient care? (Obviously not.)

Trust me, it's doable. It's not ideal, but it's doable. Ceding interesting patients only because you don't speak their language isn't necessarily the default option.

And, perhaps it is different at your hospital, but I have been given quite a few patients who don't speak English or Spanish or Korean. I was given an Egyptian woman to follow - she only spoke Arabic and no English. What REALLY frustrated me about her is that the intern on our service spoke Arabic fluently - and yet the chief elected to give her to ME, and not to the intern. :confused:

We aren't talking about a single time when you need to take a history and can wait for a translator. We are often talking about checking in with a patient every morning and evening, being there for procedures, frequently at times when there are no foreign language speakers around. (There are telephone and internet translator options, but this is far from ideal in most med student situations).

I'm familiar with how most services work. On OB/gyn, I had several Chinese patients who didn't speak English. We made do with telephone and translator options - which is VERY hard especially on Ob/gyn. How do you tell a woman to "stop pushing" in Chinese? And trying to tell a woman "I'm going to examine your cervix and your vagina" via a telephone translator isn't a great option. Nevertheless, you do what you have to do and you make it work.
 
I say do whatever.

This is my plan (don't know if it'll work, but I'll at least try...if it doesn't, oh well, i'm not going to kill myself).

Undergrad: Took Mandarin Chinese for 3 years (awesome language! i loved it)
Med School: Take Medical Spanish (if there is a class available) or learn medical terms in spanish; Also brush up on Mandarin Chinese & learn Cantonese Chinese from boyfriend
Internship/Residency: Apply/learn Spanish & Japanese (maybe Chinese if my pronunciation improves) in practice
Practice: Use my English/Japanese/Spanish/Mandarin&Cantonese Chinese in time of need.

With my fluency in Japanese, I hope to brainwash all of the Japanese people in the nearby community to seek me as their physician. :p If my Chinese improve, I will also brainwash the Chinese people to seek me as their physician! YESH!!!

OK. So this plan probably won't work. My boyfriend and I always joke about it though. But, you never know~ since there is a Japanese Clinic in Atlanta (where ~70% of the Japanese-speaking people in GA go).
 
I say do whatever.

This is my plan (don't know if it'll work, but I'll at least try...if it doesn't, oh well, i'm not going to kill myself).

Undergrad: Took Mandarin Chinese for 3 years (awesome language! i loved it)
Med School: Take Medical Spanish (if there is a class available) or learn medical terms in spanish; Also brush up on Mandarin Chinese & learn Cantonese Chinese from boyfriend
Internship/Residency: Apply/learn Spanish & Japanese (maybe Chinese if my pronunciation improves) in practice
Practice: Use my English/Japanese/Spanish/Mandarin&Cantonese Chinese in time of need.

With my fluency in Japanese, I hope to brainwash all of the Japanese people in the nearby community to seek me as their physician. :p If my Chinese improve, I will also brainwash the Chinese people to seek me as their physician! YESH!!!

OK. So this plan probably won't work. My boyfriend and I always joke about it though. But, you never know~ since there is a Japanese Clinic in Atlanta (where ~70% of the Japanese-speaking people in GA go).

If you go to MCW, there's a club, LaRAMA, that used to have medical Spanish classes 1 night/week every other week. They may still, but I'm not a member, so I'm not sure. There are no other medical Spanish classes that I can find, but there are books for sale at the B&N near school. I was just über burnt out from studying languages for so long I didn't want to take those classes. It probably would've been helpful.

The typical languages we need translators for in Milwaukee are Spanish, Russian, and Hmong.
 
For practical purposes: pick Chinese and Spanish.

They are hard, btw. And Chinese native speakers tend to laugh at us with no mercy when we speak with the wrong accent, which is not constructive. But there are over 1 billion people who can speak Chinese, which is good for business. For Spanish, if you go to Latin America, native speakers speak very fast... hard to understand them with just a year or two of college Spanish. Not to mention the slang..

The best is to learn what you like. You'll progress faster this way.
I usually go with the culture that I like, which comes down to Japanese and French. But so far, I only pick Latin.
 
I took Spanish in High School and had a manual labor job for a few years after that.

That was four years ago and I haven't lost much...it's like riding a bike.

Do you use Spanish every day now? How do you know that you haven't lost much?

I'm asking because I feel like I lost a little bit of Spanish during MS1 and MS2 - although I tried to keep it up by talking to friends from Mexico as much as possible.

I haven't ridden a bike in over a year, but I'm pretty sure that I still can.

Spanish is ubiquitous in the city I'm in (and many others).

I still need to work on my English and Chinese though.
 
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