Foreign Medical school

[Kashala]

I was told by a foreign school that they would accept me without having finished my bachelors degree or MCAT... I am very confident about getting into a US medical school but still have three or four semesters left. They said they would take me next year and I would be able to start in fall. However, exciting this sounds I hear you have to jump through hoops to get US residencies are foreign schools. Would any of you consider going to a foreign medical school? I don't know that I would just because my GPA is good and my MCAT will hoefully be good enough for a US school. I do see lots of Attendings usually older than 45 from foreign medical schools however but I have not seen many residents (just out of medical school).

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[Law2Doc]

I was told by a foreign school that they would accept me without having finished my bachelors degree or MCAT... I am very confident about getting into a US medical school but still have three or four semesters left. They said they would take me next year and I would be able to start in fall. However, exciting this sounds I hear you have to jump through hoops to get US residencies are foreign schools. Would any of you consider going to a foreign medical school? I don't know that I would just because my GPA is good and my MCAT will hoefully be good enough for a US school. I do see lots of Attendings usually older than 45 from foreign medical schools however but I have not seen many residents (just out of medical school).

If you are planning to practice in the US, your best bet to get the residency you want (and you won't know what you want for a few years) in terms of specialty and location will be to go to a US school. That's all there is to it. And this isn't a race. In a 40+ year career what is the difference if you start next year or the year after.

 

[Dr Who]

At this stage, if you are confident about your chances of getting into a US med school then you should wait. The one year you save by entering a non US, non accredited school will have serious repercussions throughout your career. In this case your best bet is to have more patience and ENJOY your time in undergrad.

 

[NonTradMed]

Ditto to the above posts. We are all biased since most of us are in US med schools, but if you go to the international forum, many US med students in other countries would probably also tell you to try for US med schools first if you want to practice here. A year may seem like a long time right now, but in four years time, you may come to regret it when you find your residency choices limited.

 

[spicedmanna]

I was told by a foreign school that they would accept me without having finished my bachelors degree or MCAT... I am very confident about getting into a US medical school but still have three or four semesters left. They said they would take me next year and I would be able to start in fall. However, exciting this sounds I hear you have to jump through hoops to get US residencies are foreign schools. Would any of you consider going to a foreign medical school? I don't know that I would just because my GPA is good and my MCAT will hoefully be good enough for a US school. I do see lots of Attendings usually older than 45 from foreign medical schools however but I have not seen many residents (just out of medical school).

It really sounds like you are on the right track academically, so stick with it. Be patient; medical school is a long process, so a few semesters perfecting yourself academically before med school are a drop in the bucket compared to the time you will invest for the rest of the process. It's worth it.

Also, attend a US medical school if you can. This will give you the most options. You will have to work much harder if you attend a foreign medical school, and as a FMG, it will also be harder to get certain residencies. If you don't have to stack the cards against yourself, why do it just because you can get into school a little earlier? On the other hand, if you have tried applying to US medical programs already, and did not get accepted, then it might be time to consider going overseas, especially if you don't see an easy recourse to get you accepted the next year.

Good Luck!

 

[Wizard of Oz]

I agree with the others, but I am going to give you another reason to consider staying in the US--cost. Your profile says that you are from Connecticut, and I am sure that you have a public med school there in addition to Yale. Since I don't know what it is, I am banking on the fact that a solid 10 on the MCAT will likely get you in. They will probably charge you about $12,000 per year in tuiton.

Now I don't know what foregin schools charge, but I would guess that they will be at least twice this unless they are SO impressed by you that they will give you a significant scholarship. So consider that you would be out another $50,000 in tuition alone plus the cost associated with living in a foregin country (where you may not be able to work even if you wanted to). Do you really WANT to be far away from your friends/family? If the foreign school is already going to take you, they must see some potential that US shcools will see later.

The true cost benefit, however, would probably come later. In order to meet the growing demand for physicians, more U.S. med schools are opening; and those already established are adding slots. On the other hand, residency positions do not seem to be going up at the same rate. This means that instead of creating more doctors, we are really just going to be accepting fewer foreign grads in U.S. residency programs. As a result, foreign grads who want to come here will be less likely to match a competative and/or higher paying residency. I'm not saying that it is always about the money, but if you want to do something other than primary care, good luck if you go to a foreign med school.

Give it a year. If you really blow it on the MCAT and can't get in here, the foreign school will still be there for you.

 

[Bad-Obsession]

When I was in undergrad I had a buddy that was premed with me. All the sudden one day he comes to me and says almost exactly what the OP has said. "I can get in before I finish my undergrad and I don't have to go through the MCAT crap..." Now he and I had great grades and had every reason to think we would have no problem getting into a US school so I told him pretty much what this thread has said. -It may be more difficult to get a residency -Why do that to yourself -You can always go and apply outside the US if you don't get in. We talked about it several times and a month latter he was on the plane to start madical school while I finished my undergrad degree. At first I felt I was totally right because I my grades & MCAT were solid and I did get into a US school. I thought, "Ha, had he stayed he would have been right here with me." But now I don't know because I am inmy second year and he is finished and in residency... There are a lot of people who love being in medical school, but I would kind of love to be DONE with medical school. So I don't know... Good times.

 

[NonTradMed]

When I was in undergrad I had a buddy that was premed with me. All the sudden one day he comes to me and says almost exactly what the OP has said. "I can get in before I finish my undergrad and I don't have to go through the MCAT crap..." Now he and I had great grades and had every reason to think we would have no problem getting into a US school so I told him pretty much what this thread has said. -It may be more difficult to get a residency -Why do that to yourself -You can always go and apply outside the US if you don't get in. We talked about it several times and a month latter he was on the plane to start madical school while I finished my undergrad degree. At first I felt I was totally right because I my grades & MCAT were solid and I did get into a US school. I thought, "Ha, had he stayed he would have been right here with me." But now I don't know because I am inmy second year and he is finished and in residency... There are a lot of people who love being in medical school, but I would kind of love to be DONE with medical school. So I don't know... Good times.

No one is saying you can't get into med school as an FMG, it's just that your matching into competitive residencies is limited. Perhaps it worked out great for your friend because he got into the residency of his choice....or perhaps he was limited by his choice. Also, going to a foreign environment is not always a easy adjustment. Med school is tough enough as it is without having have that cultural shock (for some people). But that's really a side issue. Your goal in med school is to match into the residency of your choice. Most med students will tell you you will change your choices as you go through school, so it's hard to say with certainty where you'll match. Do you want to go through school knowing that your choices are limited to certain geographic regions and/or specialities? This has implications on where you work, how much you make, how satisfied you will be with your job. All that will be affected by a simple decision to 'save time'.

 

[Bad-Obsession]

Do you want to go through school knowing that your choices are limited to certain geographic regions and/or specialities? This has implications on where you work, how much you make, how satisfied you will be with your job. All that will be affected by a simple decision to 'save time'.

I get ya, and like I said I thought the exact same thing. But so far the whole "your residencies may be limited by going to a non US school" have turned out to be a legend. The thing that seems to be the most important factor is step 1 score. Like I said, before I would have given the same advice, but now I am not so sure. Good times.

 

[Law2Doc]

I get ya, and like I said I thought the exact same thing. But so far the whole "your residencies may be limited by going to a non US school" have turned out to be a legend. The thing that seems to be the most important factor is step 1 score. Like I said, before I would have given the same advice, but now I am not so sure. Good times.

One anecdotal example does not make the general rule a legend. I can offset that by the person I know who didn't end up where he wanted from his offshore experience and so went to podiatry school, trying another healthcare route.

 

[Bad-Obsession]

One anecdotal example does not make the general rule a legend. I can offset that by the person I know who didn't end up where he wanted from his offshore experience and so went to podiatry school, trying another healthcare route.

Smile. How cute. I wasn't saying the whole "students from non US med-schools have a harder time getting US residencies" was a legend because of the one example of my friend. I was saying it seemed to be a legend because of my overall experiences. Smile. I have heard of several people not getting the residency they wanted and having to take a transitional year. Believe it or not some of them were students from US med-schools. I just haven't heard of anyone not getting a residency because they went to a non US med-school. Smile. Add to that what I have heard from my friend who is already in residency; I just find myself not as sure about all those things I used to tell myself and other people about non US med-schools. Anyway, just trying to clarify what I had originally said. Good times.

 

[YouDontKnowJack]

if it will take more than 2 years to turn around your grades, then stop holding your breath for a US school.

 

[teddie]

One anecdotal example does not make the general rule a legend. I can offset that by the person I know who didn't end up where he wanted from his offshore experience and so went to podiatry school, trying another healthcare route.

well, the recent data from AMA suggests that at least 23% of physicians in US are IMGs and almost 24% in residency programs are IMGs too. i guess at least some of them get to the programs they want to. how anecdotal is that?
http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/18/workforce2006.pdf

 

[Law2Doc]

well, the recent data from AMA suggests that at least 23% of physicians in US are IMGs and almost 24% in residency programs are IMGs too. i guess at least some of them get to the programs they want to. how anecdotal is that?
http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/18/workforce2006.pdf

Yes, but out of how many. If you look at the number of folks who start in offshore schools compared to the number who actually make it into US residencies, the numbers don't look as pretty, I suspect. Those places as a group have high attrition, lower board pass rates, and who knows how many people make it through and still flounder. And of those that got 24% of residencies, how do you know to what extent their residency choices weren't more limited? Assuming that "at least some of them get to the programs they want" may be flawed reasoning -- It may be true but is not a conclusion one can draw from the numbers you have presented. I suspect there is an awful lot of just taking what you can get. This data doesn't disprove the general rule at all, nor does it support the prior posters assertion of "legend". It merely states what everybody already knows, that offshore educated students are being used to fill remaining residency spots. As US med schools increase their enrollment and new US schools spring up, this may tighten up considerably.

I also note that by use of the term "IMG" (which no one else on this thread has used) and the study you linked you are perhaps lumping in foreign educated foreign students with US students educated in foreign locales. These aren't similarly situated groups and you change the discussion by doing so. A number of us on this thread were clearly discussing paths of US college students who attend offshore (esp caribbean) med schools.

 

[teddie]

Yes, but out of how many. If you look at the number of folks who start in offshore schools compared to the number who actually make it into US residencies, the numbers don't look as pretty, I suspect. Those places as a group have high attrition, lower board pass rates, and who knows how many people make it through and still flounder. And of those that got 24% of residencies, how do you know to what extent their residency choices weren't more limited? Assuming that "at least some of them get to the programs they want" may be flawed reasoning -- It may be true but is not a conclusion one can draw from the numbers you have presented. I suspect there is an awful lot of just taking what you can get. This data doesn't disprove the general rule at all, nor does it support the prior posters assertion of "legend". It merely states what everybody already knows, that offshore educated students are being used to fill remaining residency spots. As US med schools increase their enrollment and new US schools spring up, this may tighten up considerably.

I also note that by use of the term "IMG" (which no one else on this thread has used) and the study you linked you are perhaps lumping in foreign educated foreign students with US students educated in foreign locales. These aren't similarly situated groups and you change the discussion by doing so. A number of us on this thread were clearly discussing paths of US college students who attend offshore (esp caribbean) med schools.

you are right. the term IMG is a politically correct term for both US-FMGs and non US-FMGs. unfortunately im not aware of any data that separates these two groups. but still, my point is, being a US-FMG doesn't necessarily drastically limits your chances getting in to desired program. in the end its the same path - usmle and match.

 

[Law2Doc]

you are right. the term IMG is a politically correct term for both US-FMGs and non US-FMGs. unfortunately im not aware of any data that separates these two groups. but still, my point is, being a US-FMG doesn't necessarily drastically limits your chances getting in to desired program. in the end its the same path - usmle and match.

It's the same path, but with hurdles. Two people with the same USMLE and grades/credentials, one from a US school and one from the caribbean, don't really have the identical set of choices. I'm fairly sure this is not a very controversial statement.

 

[Bad-Obsession]

It's the same path, but with hurdles. Two people with the same USMLE and grades/credentials, one from a US school and one from the caribbean, don't really have the identical set of choices. I'm fairly sure this is not a very controversial statement.

I just do not know where you get your information. I used to think the same things as you, but at now I realize I just don't know. You on the other hand seem to really know. You seem to be able to dismiss data from others with a fairly high level of confidence. How do you know that US students attending a Caribbean Med school with the same grades and USMLE score don't really have the identical set of choices??? I don't see how that couldn't be a controversial statement... Like I said, how do you know...??? Good times.

 

[Law2Doc]

I just do not know where you get your information. I used to think the same things as you, but at now I realize I just don't know. You on the other hand seem to really know. You seem to be able to dismiss data from others with a fairly high level of confidence. How do you know that US students attending a Caribbean Med school with the same grades and USMLE score don't really have the identical set of choices??? I don't see how that couldn't be a controversial statement... Like I said, how do you know...??? Good times.

I say it's noncontroversial because I've heard the same statement from people I know who did the caribbean route. They looked at that as a second chance into medicine, not an equal one.

 

[chopper]

I just do not know where you get your information. I used to think the same things as you, but at now I realize I just don't know. You on the other hand seem to really know. You seem to be able to dismiss data from others with a fairly high level of confidence. How do you know that US students attending a Caribbean Med school with the same grades and USMLE score don't really have the identical set of choices??? I don't see how that couldn't be a controversial statement... Like I said, how do you know...??? Good times.

US grads match before foreign grads. You can do the research yourself, but look at the stats for every residency out there. This includes number applied (US), number accepted, # unfilled, # of IMG. For most of the 'competitive residencies' - ortho, uro, optho, derm, - the number of unfilled by US students is 0 or in the low single digits. Can you find IMG urologists? Sure - but not many.

You sound like Achmed Amideenajab denying the holocaust saying that IMGs have the same residency options as US medical school graduates. I can't believe that this is even something being debated here.

 

[AmericanIMG]

US grads match before foreign grads. You can do the research yourself, but look at the stats for every residency out there. This includes number applied (US), number accepted, # unfilled, # of IMG. For most of the 'competitive residencies' - ortho, uro, optho, derm, - the number of unfilled by US students is 0 or in the low single digits. Can you find IMG urologists? Sure - but not many.

You sound like Achmed Amideenajab denying the holocaust saying that IMGs have the same residency options as US medical school graduates. I can't believe that this is even something being debated here.

actually in the end it all depends on your step scores and your LORs. people who think that IMGs don't get competitive residencies are completely wrong. i know of anesthesiologists and orthos from offshore schools. in the end it all comes down to how you do with your boards and how much you know.

the low amount of IMGs that fill the competitive specialties are simly due to the lower board scores. if you do good on your board scores it doesn't really matter where you go to school.

going to a US med school should be your top priority, simply because of the better education that you will get there. the professors and facilities will be far greater at most US med schools then any international school, and that should equate into better board scores leading to a better residency. should you not get into a US med school (or DO school, which i think are very underrated), then offshore is a great option.

 

[DPPM]

If you look at the number of folks who start in offshore schools compared to the number who actually make it into US residencies, the numbers don't look as pretty, I suspect. Those places as a group have high attrition, lower board pass rates, and who knows how many people make it through and still flounder.

I don't doubt that there is some sort of an advantage to going to med school in the US (if you want to practice here), but I'm not sold yet that there is a big advantage.

The fact that the success rate is lower isn't necessarily indicative of how much of a disadvantage it is, because you could argue that those students that fail offshore (out of med. school, didn't get a good residency, etc.) would have done the same if they were admitted to a US med. school. I wonder what the results would be if we compared those with a particular MCAT/GPA who go abroad, whether by choice or necessity, to their counterparts in US schools with the same MCAT/GPA. My guess is that the difference in success rate, in terms of obtaining residencies, wouldn't be all that significant, particularly if we are comparing those who have good numbers (high MCAT/high GPA).

The problem is, we aren't usually making those comparisons, because the large majority of those who go to the Carribean are people that generally weren't going to be as successful in medical school in the first place. So in a way, you're comparing apples to oranges. Like I said, I don't deny that there's a stigma to going to Carribean, I'm just not sure the disadvantage is as significant as some people say.

 

[NonTradMed]

My parents have friends who are foreign educated doctors (as in they went to school in their native country before coming here). They are different from the carribean students who could not get into US schools and had to go abroad but they are treated the 'same' during the match and I was told that they essentially match after the US students match. That means for competitive residencies or popular locations, there may not be any spots left if the US students all pick those choices. So in effect, the FMGs get the 'leftovers' of the match game. Now, that doesn't mean FMGs won't get into some good residency programs but they told me it was harder as an FMG to match into competitive places and/or nice locales. But anyway, what do most of us here know about this? We're all attending schools in the US.

 

[AmericanIMG]

My parents have friends who are foreign educated doctors (as in they went to school in their native country before coming here). They are different from the carribean students who could not get into US schools and had to go abroad but they are treated the 'same' during the match and I was told that they essentially match after the US students match. That means for competitive residencies or popular locations, there may not be any spots left if the US students all pick those choices. So in effect, the FMGs get the 'leftovers' of the match game. Now, that doesn't mean FMGs won't get into some good residency programs but they told me it was harder as an FMG to match into competitive places and/or nice locales. But anyway, what do most of us here know about this? We're all attending schools in the US.

the match does not tailor to US med students vs. IMGs. having an older brother that has graduated from UC San Diego SOM, a cousin that is at AUC in the Caribbean, a cousin that is doing med school in India at Manipal, friends at med school in Poland and being a foreign med student myself (hence the IMG), i can tell you that FMG/IMGs don't match seperately.

 

[Gabujabu]

I come from a family with many FMGs, including my parents, and believe me, it is much harder to get a good residency. It is not impossible, but there is definitely a strong preference for US grads.

Here is an example of an FMG who has been very sucessful, but had to struggle to get a residency at a "prestigious" program.

"He was born in Mayurnathapuram, a village in southern India, and as soon as he completed his medical degree, at the University of Madras, he sought a residency in the United States, only to discover that positions at prestigious programs are rarely given to foreign-trained doctors."

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060724fa_fact

 

[NonTradMed]

the match does not tailor to US med students vs. IMGs. having an older brother that has graduated from UC San Diego SOM, a cousin that is at AUC in the Caribbean, a cousin that is doing med school in India at Manipal, friends at med school in Poland and being a foreign med student myself (hence the IMG), i can tell you that FMG/IMGs don't match seperately.

Sorry, I didn't mean they matched separately, but that FMGs are essentially treated as 'last choices' during matching. I don't know your situation but I have given what I was told by family friends who went through the match. They said the match essentially gives US medical graduates an advantage over FMGs because US grads are given first consideration, not equal consideration to FMGs. But anyway, after you go through the match, you can share with us your experience.

 

[Bad-Obsession]

My parents have friends who are foreign educated doctors (as in they went to school in their native country before coming here). They are different from the carribean students who could not get into US schools and had to go abroad but they are treated the 'same' during the match and I was told that they essentially match after the US students match. That means for competitive residencies or popular locations, there may not be any spots left if the US students all pick those choices. So in effect, the FMGs get the 'leftovers' of the match game. Now, that doesn't mean FMGs won't get into some good residency programs but they told me it was harder as an FMG to match into competitive places and/or nice locales. But anyway, what do most of us here know about this? We're all attending schools in the US.

Wow. I guess two students who qualify for the match with equal scores, grades, and overall application - differing only in whether or not they went to a US med school will not have the same opportunity in the match. Thank you for the info. Good times.

 

[AmericanIMG]

Wow. I guess two students who qualify for the match with equal scores, grades, and overall application - differing only in whether or not they went to a US med school will not have the same opportunity in the match. Thank you for the info. Good times.

thats not true...if there are two people that have the IDENTICAL things and letters of rec that are the same, and clinical evaluations that are roughly the same, i believe that in the end it will come down to the interview.