FP/Sports Medicine vs Physical Medicine

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telegoat

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I'm curious to know if any FM docs are interested in or are currently practicing musculoskeletal/sports medicine. I'd like to know what procedures are taught in the sports medicine fellowship as well. Moreover, did any of you deliberate FM vs physiatry and if so why did you ultimately choose FM..

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Having worked with both types of docs I can offer a few generalizations:
fp/sports med is more about dx and tx of acute injuries while physiatry is more about rehab from more serious injuries using more advanced diagnostic and interventional techniques.
most of the fp/sports med guys I know did it to increase their knowledge of outpt orthopedics and musculoskeletal injuries and don't work with professional teams beyond the duration of their training.
 
I personally feel that an FP who wastes a year to do sports medicine should have his head examined. I mean who wants to go see someone who cannot really do any intervention to fix something? The reality of it is that any competent FP should be able to (in 3 years of residency) become intimately familiar with the common injuries, treatments of such injuries, as well as the more lucrative procedures like Synvisc knee injections, steroid injections of virtually any joint, knee aspiration, and common reductions for fractures and dislocations. But anything more unusual than those things probably need to see ortho anyway. I just don't see how an FP with a tag in sports medicine is really going to have a viable chance these days of only practicing such. The rare connected individual might, but the rest end up practicing FP is my bet.
 
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PACtoDOC said:
I personally feel that an FP who wastes a year to do sports medicine should have his head examined. I mean who wants to go see someone who cannot really do any intervention to fix something? The reality of it is that any competent FP should be able to (in 3 years of residency) become intimately familiar with the common injuries, treatments of such injuries, as well as the more lucrative procedures like Synvisc knee injections, steroid injections of virtually any joint, knee aspiration, and common reductions for fractures and dislocations. But anything more unusual than those things probably need to see ortho anyway. I just don't see how an FP with a tag in sports medicine is really going to have a viable chance these days of only practicing such. The rare connected individual might, but the rest end up practicing FP is my bet.
does look good to have a few caq(certificates of added qualification) if you want to be on fp residency staff. one of my old supervisors had caq in sports med and geriatrics and I'm sure trhat helped him land his current job as fp residency director.
 
emedpa said:
does look good to have a few caq(certificates of added qualification) if you want to be on fp residency staff. one of my old supervisors had caq in sports med and geriatrics and I'm sure trhat helped him land his current job as fp residency director.

Pretty sure PACtoDOC was referring to the real world and not the academic world of medicine but you probably knew that.
 
raptor5 said:
Pretty sure PACtoDOC was referring to the real world and not the academic world of medicine but you probably knew that.
yup-knew that....I think one can actually challenge all the caq tests without doing a fellowship as well as I am fairly sure my old doc didn't do 2 fellowships post residency.
 
emedpa said:
yup-knew that....I think one can actually challenge all the caq tests without doing a fellowship as well as I am fairly sure my old doc didn't do 2 fellowships post residency.

From the ABFM Website.
"Family physicians must have satisfactorily completed, or will have completed by June 30 of the examination year, a minimum of one year in an ACGME-accredited sports medicine fellowship program associated with an ACGME-accredited residency in Family Medicine, Emergency Medicine, Internal Medicine, or Pediatrics."

You would not be able to hold the CAQ unless you can provide "Documentation of 20% professional time devoted to Sports Medicine"

Pretty stupid if you ask me.
 
Hey E,

FP faculty jobs are a dime a dozen. Its not real competitive to offer a job whereas you have to see patients and train medical students and residents all for the lowest paying end of the pay scale. You can land a gig at most FP programs with a good strong pulse and a desire to teach. Residency director positions are a bit more coveted but even still you see DO's heading up allopathic residency programs in FM. Its just not competitive. You almost always see the same old faculty jobs listed in the back of JAAFP month after month. We have one sports med faculty that I know here at our school who sees virtually nothing but pain patients that the pain specialists couldn't fix with injections, and who ortho refused to operate because they had no true evidence of a physical defect needing surgery. And most of them are either postal workers or workman's comp gone way bad!!! I know as an Fp that I would refer my patients with injuries to ortho after I failed to treat them effectively with non-invasive or minimally invasive options. There really is no reason in between to send someone to a sport's medicine doctor in my opinion. Granted, a lot of ortho docs are narrow minded and only focus on surgery, making them bad choices for initial consults and service as team physicians. But don't kid yourself, there are plenty of good orthos around who know rehab, prevention, and are full-spectrum sport's medicine docs, and yet they can operate if need be. To me an ortho doc like this is the only real sports medicine physician. Based on the standard of care and on board certification, is there anything more a sports med doctor can do that a well trained FP cannot do? Thats what I would base my desire for doing a fellowship on. Like cardiology...we all know that a basic internist should not be doing caths, so thus a fellowship in cardiology is worthwhile. FP simply has no real viable fellowships because you are not limited from practicing EM, geriatrics, or sports medicine as an FP versus a fellowship trained FP. If FP guys really want to expand, what they need to do is create opportunities to train as an FP in IM subspecialties. It makes sense to me that an FP could easily do well in cardiology, GI, and a few other subs. IM domination over these fields is not going to last forever, and there is already talk of this happening in the near future. That would be pretty cool.
 
Telegoat,
I have a strong interest in sports medicine and applied/interviewed in both FM and PM&R. In the end, I decided to go with FM for a number of reasons. There are pluses and minuses to each route and I had trouble weighing one for the other. I think PM&R is a great field, but to be a team doc its my opinion that you need a well-rounded medical education.
Logistically speaking though, you have to recognize that the vast majority of non-surgical sports medicine fellowships out there are housed in FM departments. That is, it is the FM department that has the relationship with ortho in these places to provide non-surgical team physician services to the athletic prgrams and student health. That meant for me that during my residency training I would have the opportunity to gain experience in sports med. A great number of PM&R depts (not all) simply lacked those kind of opportunities.
Two fellowships are accredited through ER depts and I think one through an IM dept. PM&R has some sports/spine fellowships, none of which are accredited at this time and therefore none of which allow you to sit for the CAQ. PM&R is trying to add a CAQ down the road though.
What it came down to for me was what kind of job do I want after my training is all said and done. I want to be a team physician for university level athletics. Jobs are out there in this arena via academics, student health, and private practice routes via FM. I just didn't see folks looking for PM&R trained sports docs. I DID see lots of folks looking for PM&R trained docs for TBI, SCI, interventional, and EMG/msk focused job descriptions. If these types of things interest you more that training in FM, then I think the PM&R route to sports med is the route for you, just not for me.
Hope this helps. Feel free to ask more questions.
 
Just to get an idea of whats out there, where would one find open job opportunities in FP with sports med?
THanks
 
You should do electives to really see for yourself. I didn't do a physiatry elective, but did do a FP/SM and I'll say that the SM rotation was very focus compared to what you would learn going through a general FP rotation about sports med. I disagree with PAC that the best and only sports med doc would the the orthopod. FP/SM docs are better prepared with the wide range of problems... yea, sure diagnosis and non-surgical intervention of acute musculoskeletal injuries, but you get better training in dealing with heart issues, asthma, nutrition, the "female triad" (endocrinology)... as well as some psych issues and eating disorders. To my understanding, FP/SM can solely do sports (like prof/college teams), work in academia, but many do private practice and make a good lot of money. Many join ortho-rheum groups and handle ALL non-surgical musculoskeletal issues as well as pre/post op. Others continue as FM private practice, doing full-spectrum work and leveraging their SM knowledge to see more pedi/adolescent patients, treat healthy/wealthy weekend warriors, team treat with PT/PM&R for elderly and chronic disease-rs (i.e. diabetics/obesity). I don't think ortho can do this, and while I think an FP can handle this, it makes sense that one more year of advanced training will give an FP a bigger bag of tricks to offer patients who approach PCP's first for their problems. Don't know much about PM&R, so I can't comment there.
 
I couldn't agree more with lowbudget regarding doing an elective. I did a SM rotation (FP and IM/Peds attendings) and a PM&R rotation and this made it easier for me to decide. However, I understand you can't always do a rotation in everything you want due to the insane time contraints of making an application. Funny how little exposure we get to medicine in general before we're expected to know what we want to do for the rest of our lives. So, if you don't have time to do both rotations make sure you at least connect with mentors in each respective field. Of course remember, take everything they say with at grain of NaCl b/c they're going to try to recruit you naturally. From personal experience, my SM rotation (via an FM dept.) was a great (and fun) experience. Good luck.
 
The beauty of 4th year electives is that there are less rules. And if I had to make a bet, the FM deparment is usually the most liberal and understanding. So the plan: why don't you take a 4 week elective in SM (either offered through your FP dept or self-design one) and split the 3:1 or 2:2 weeks between FP/SM and PM&R? You have 2 arguments. One on a personal level, you want a chance to make an informed career decision, and two on an educational level, you want to see what kinds of different patients see each type of doc and/or how the two disciplines approach the same problem.
 
PACtoDOC said:
I personally feel that an FP who wastes a year to do sports medicine should have his head examined. I mean who wants to go see someone who cannot really do any intervention to fix something? The reality of it is that any competent FP should be able to (in 3 years of residency) become intimately familiar with the common injuries, treatments of such injuries, as well as the more lucrative procedures like Synvisc knee injections, steroid injections of virtually any joint, knee aspiration, and common reductions for fractures and dislocations. But anything more unusual than those things probably need to see ortho anyway. I just don't see how an FP with a tag in sports medicine is really going to have a viable chance these days of only practicing such. The rare connected individual might, but the rest end up practicing FP is my bet.

For me it was something I was interested in. Kind of like getting a MS or PhD. I see very little SM cases these days except for what comes into FM clinics and some event coverage at a high school. The plus is when you tell Ortho they need surgery they tend to listen.
 
FP Attending DO said:
For me it was something I was interested in. Kind of like getting a MS or PhD. I see very little SM cases these days except for what comes into FM clinics and some event coverage at a high school. The plus is when you tell Ortho they need surgery they tend to listen.

I really haven't had a problem with ortho NOT wanting to do surgery on an injured athlete ;)
 
PACtoDOC said:
I really haven't had a problem with ortho NOT wanting to do surgery on an injured athlete ;)
TRY WORKING FOR AN HMO......
it's like pulling teeth trying to get folks into the o.r.
a friend of mine recently got a 90% + acl tear with a grossly unstable knee and the hmo ortho guys want to manage it conservatively with p.t. only( and he is an active guy). I recommended he get a second opinion from an outside orthopedist. their opinion:"why hasn't this been repaired yet"
 
emedpa said:
TRY WORKING FOR AN HMO......
it's like pulling teeth trying to get folks into the o.r.
a friend of mine recently got a 90% + acl tear with a grossly unstable knee and the hmo ortho guys want to manage it conservatively with p.t. only( and he is an active guy). I recommended he get a second opinion from an outside orthopedist. their opinion:"why hasn't this been repaired yet"

Oh, very true! If an ortho doc is in a capitated practice setting, they may very well treat the HMO patients conservatively and operate all the well paying PPO's. This is unethical, and if you can proove they are setting 2 different standards, it is big time trouble for them. If you friend simply mentions that he thinks maybe he is being treated conservatively because he is a capitated patient, my guess is that they will then decide to recommend surgery. We don't have much capitation left down here thank God, but out west I know you guys do!

Good point E.
 
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