Frequency of a wave remaining constant through changes in medium

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TheMightyBoosh

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Hey all,

I'm trying to develop an intuitive understanding of why the frequency of a wave will remain constant through a change in medium (while velocity and wavelength will vary). My reasoning for EM waves is that E=hf, and since the energy of an EM wave remains constant through a change in medium, the frequency must also not change. However, I'm not sure if that energy equation would apply for sound waves.

Does anyone have an intuitive understanding of why frequency remains constant for both types of waves?

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As you go from one medium to another, the frequency stays the same, but the wavelength changes. The speed of the wave traveling from one medium to another changes, and that change is proportional to the change in wavelength.

As you go from one medium to another, the refractive index, n, for that medium changes. That change in the refractive index dictates the change in the speed of the wave traveling through that medium, and thus the waves wavelength.
 
As you go from one medium to another, the frequency stays the same, but the wavelength changes. The speed of the wave traveling from one medium to another changes, and that change is proportional to the change in wavelength.

As you go from one medium to another, the refractive index, n, for that medium changes. That change in the refractive index dictates the change in the speed of the wave traveling through that medium, and thus the waves wavelength.

I understand that the mentioned phenomena does occur, but my question is why, in an intuitive sense, frequency remains constant while wavelength does not.
 
I understand that the mentioned phenomena does occur, but my question is why, in an intuitive sense, frequency remains constant while wavelength does not.

not to be a dick. but someone asked this already just a few days ago. i'm sure if you searched, you'd find it:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=809202

for the OP in that thread, i guess the explanation was satisfying enough.

in a nutshell though, since wave speed increases or decreases from medium to medium. something else has to increase or decrease for wave speed = wavelength * freq to hold true. well, freq doesn't change, especially for light, since changing the freq would create or destroy energy. and we can't do that. but we can change the wavelength allowing light to travel further in a unit time.
 
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not to be a dick. but someone asked this already just a few days ago. i'm sure if you searched, you'd find it:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=809202

for the OP in that thread, i guess the explanation was satisfying enough.

in a nutshell though, since wave speed increases or decreases from medium to medium. something else has to increase or decrease for wave speed = wavelength * freq to hold true. well, freq doesn't change, especially for light, since changing the freq would create or destroy energy. and we can't do that. but we can change the wavelength allowing light to travel further in a unit time.

Yeah I actually did do a search and read this explanation, but if you read my original question I already mentioned the fact that changing frequency of a photon would change its energy. "However, I'm not sure if that energy equation would apply for sound waves." So, to clarify, I'm more interested in the explanation for why frequency would remain constant for sound waves moving through mediums.
 
Whiteshadow: read through the entire thread, and realized my question was brought up towards the end.

So your explanation is that sound waves have energy associated with them, so even though the E= hf equation does not apply for sound waves, they would still have some sort of direction relationship between their frequency and energy? Is there an intuitive reason why frequency relates to energy and wavelength doesn't? I may be digging deep here, bear with me :)
 
So your explanation is that sound waves have energy associated with them, so even though the E= hf equation does not apply for sound waves, they would still have some sort of direction relationship between their frequency and energy? Is there an intuitive reason why frequency relates to energy and wavelength doesn't? I may be digging deep here, bear with me :)

When it comes to light, E=hf is the only one and true almighty equation. It isn't E=hc^2, which would be more logical, it isn't E=h/lambda, which would be more fair. It is E=hf. No, it isn't intuitive. That's why at least five nobel physics prizes were awarded in the early 1900s for researching its nonintuitive implications. Every time you drive across town, you will get shorter; your butt will get bigger; you will age at a different rate than your identical twin; the very fabric of space and time will warp. Why? All to preserve the nonintuitive equation E=hf and all that necessarily follows from it.

When it comes to sound, the energy is not so important. I don't think focusing on sound energy as energy per se is a worthwhile pursuit in an MCAT forum. Sound is a mechanical phenomenon and it isn't quantized, so it doesn't lend itself to nifty calculations like joules per photon.

What is important is that the source of the sound delivers energy at a certain rate. Energy/time = J/s = power, which is why sound sources like speakers are measured in watts. The power of generated sound is MCAT worthy. At the destination, the sonic power is delivered over an area, so the recipient measures the effect of sound as power/area = watt/m^2 = intensity. The intensity of sound as measured by a recipient is MCAT worthy.

Homework question: What are the SI units (using only kg, m, s) of intenisty?
 
It might help to be a bit less abstract. Use common sense. Instead of trying to find a formula or law to derive an explanation, think about what's happening with the sound waves at the interface between two media. Sound waves are harmonic longitudinal disturbances within the medium translated by collision through electrostatic repulsion at the molecular level. Collisions from the first medium are translated into the second medium at a certain frequency producing pressure waves through the second medium. Think about it. The two media at the interface must be in phase because the wave in the second medium is being produced by collisions from the first. If the frequency changed the wave would just be dampened at the boundary through destructive interference. The wave length, and thus the wave speed, changes in the second medium because the mechanical properties of the second medium, bulk modulus and density, determine the work that needs to be done to translate the disturbance. A low bulk modulus, low density medium requires a long wavelength to hold the same energy as an incompressible, high density medium. The wavelength changes (and wave speed) but the frequency doesn't change.
 
When it comes to light, E=hf is the only one and true almighty equation. It isn't E=hc^2, which would be more logical, it isn't E=h/lambda, which would be more fair. It is E=hf. No, it isn't intuitive. That's why at least five nobel physics prizes were awarded in the early 1900s for researching its nonintuitive implications. Every time you drive across town, you will get shorter; your butt will get bigger; you will age at a different rate than your identical twin; the very fabric of space and time will warp. Why? All to preserve the nonintuitive equation E=hf and all that necessarily follows from it.

When it comes to sound, the energy is not so important. I don't think focusing on sound energy as energy per se is a worthwhile pursuit in an MCAT forum. Sound is a mechanical phenomenon and it isn't quantized, so it doesn't lend itself to nifty calculations like joules per photon.

What is important is that the source of the sound delivers energy at a certain rate. Energy/time = J/s = power, which is why sound sources like speakers are measured in watts. The power of generated sound is MCAT worthy. At the destination, the sonic power is delivered over an area, so the recipient measures the effect of sound as power/area = watt/m^2 = intensity. The intensity of sound as measured by a recipient is MCAT worthy.

Homework question: What are the SI units (using only kg, m, s) of intenisty?

Thanks, that is a fair explanation. I'll have to be content and accept what the nobel prize winners say. Though this brings up another source of confusion, because my ass actually gets smaller everytime I drive across town. But I digress.

To answer your homework question, J= (kg*m^2)/(s^2); Power = J/s = (kg*m^2)/(s^3); so Intensity = Power/unit area = kg/s^3
 
It might help to be a bit less abstract. Use common sense. Instead of trying to find a formula or law to derive an explanation, think about what's happening with the sound waves at the interface between two media. Sound waves are harmonic longitudinal disturbances within the medium translated by collision through electrostatic repulsion at the molecular level. Collisions from the first medium are translated into the second medium at a certain frequency producing pressure waves through the second medium. Think about it. The two media at the interface must be in phase because the wave in the second medium is being produced by collisions from the first. If the frequency changed the wave would just be dampened at the boundary through destructive interference. The wave length, and thus the wave speed, changes in the second medium because the mechanical properties of the second medium, bulk modulus and density, determine the work that needs to be done to translate the disturbance. A low bulk modulus, low density medium requires a long wavelength to hold the same energy as an incompressible, high density medium. The wavelength changes (and wave speed) but the frequency doesn't change.

That is actually the type of thinking I was trying to get into. So let me know if I'm understanding this correctly. When you are referring to the frequency of a sound wave, you are talking about the amount of cycles a molecule will go through as it is disturbed and returned to its average position. When a sound wave reaches an interface, such as air -> solid, the air molecules will be colliding with the solid at the same rate that the air molecules were colliding with each other to propagate the wave, so the molecules in the solid will now have to be disturbed and returned to their average position at the same rate. But now you have molecules within the solid packed more closely, so the disturbance will travel faster throughout the medium, and as a result the wavelength must increase.

Edit: It also kind of helps to me think in terms of compressions and rarefactions. A longer wavelength for a sound wave would mean a longer region of a rarefaction/compression area, which you see as the wave moves through a solid. I'm kind of drawing it out in my head, where you have a region of compression for air (shorter) moving to a region of compression for a solid (longer), resulting in a faster wave propagation. Again, since these molecules are colliding with each other at the interface, they must be disturbed and returned back to their average position at the same rate.

Let me know if there are any holes in my reasoning.
 
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The space between molecules isn't the way to go. Crystal packing distance or 'space between molecules' works two ways, actually, in determining the speed of sound because the speed of sound depends on the bulk modulus and the density.

Solids and liquids do tend to have increased bulk modulus over gases. They are harder to compress. So more dense things tend to be more incompressible, generally, though not always, and the difference in compressibility among transition metals of widely varying density is really complicated. Rubber is more compressible than concrete of equal density. The speed of sound depends on the bulk modulus and the density to decrease it. Why these things?

The speed of sound increases by the square root of the bulk modulus and decreases by the square root of the density. If you really want to understand more clearly try to picture the translation of the wave through a rarefaction and condensation both in terms of the work done and the change in momentum of a point volume. The work stored in a displacement for a point volume to translate through a distance, or wavelength, depends on elastic properties of the solid or fluid (bulk modulus, the ratio of volume stress to volume strain) which directly ties to energy (the area under the stress-strain curve), or you can apply the pressure times a change in volume thinking of thermodynamics if you know vector calculus. This is the material properties version of Hooke's Law, or F=-kx, for a mass spring, and it's super important for orthopedics by the way. The higher the bulk modulus the shorter the compression the less forceXdistance or work is required. Think about it this way. Imagine a long frictionless plane. On your left you have stretching off in a line towards the horizon resting on the plane a line of solid spheres connected by very loose springs, one between each sphere, at equilibrium. On your right you have stretching off a line of the same spheres, but between each sphere is a stiffer, stronger spring, with a much higher spring constant. If you started oscillating the one nearest you on the left and the right at the same time at the same frequency longitudinal waves would propagate along both lines, but they would go much faster on the right because only a small particle displacement would store enough energy to send the wave on. The speed of sound increases with the square root of the bulk modulus of the medium.

Now imagine if both sets of springs on our frictional plane had the same loose springs, the same spring constant, or similar compressibility if you want to think about it like material science would. But now, imagine, instead on the left the spheres were of cork and and on the right they were of lead. Instinctively I think of time, so thoughts leave work & energy for a moment and apply the thinking of dynamics, which involves the relationship of change in momentum to force and time, or impulse. The more inertia within the medium the slower the wave. The speed of sound decreases with the square root of the density.

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So a medium which has a high bulk modulus will send the wave on quickly because there isn't much displacement needed to store the energy of the wave.

(((Bulk modulus is the relationship of volume stress and strain, like sheer modulus is for sheer stress and strain, and Young's modulus is for tensile stress and strain, which is all there is to elastic properties (except breaking point and basic hysteresis) for the MCAT)))

A medium with a high density sends the wave on more slowly because of the inertia of the point masses.

Working through this reasoning you still need to understand sound in terms of what is the decibel scale, what are beats, and what are standing waves in air columns. To reprise the main idea here, the speed of sound in water would be much faster than air if bulk modulus were all there were to it, and speed of sound in water would be much slower than air because of its density. It all works out, though some liquids are faster or slower than this, some gasses or solids, that the speed of sound in water is 4.3 times faster than in air.


That is actually the type of thinking I was trying to get into. So let me know if I'm understanding this correctly. When you are referring to the frequency of a sound wave, you are talking about the amount of cycles a molecule will go through as it is disturbed and returned to its average position. When a sound wave reaches an interface, such as air -> solid, the air molecules will be colliding with the solid at the same rate that the air molecules were colliding with each other to propagate the wave, so the molecules in the solid will now have to be disturbed and returned to their average position at the same rate. But now you have molecules within the solid packed more closely, so the disturbance will travel faster throughout the medium, and as a result the wavelength must increase.

Edit: It also kind of helps to me think in terms of compressions and rarefactions. A longer wavelength for a sound wave would mean a longer region of a rarefaction/compression area, which you see as the wave moves through a solid. I'm kind of drawing it out in my head, where you have a region of compression for air (shorter) moving to a region of compression for a solid (longer), resulting in a faster wave propagation. Again, since these molecules are colliding with each other at the interface, they must be disturbed and returned back to their average position at the same rate.

Let me know if there are any holes in my reasoning.
 
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