From Doctorate in Clinical Psych to Consulting or I/O Psychology

[Markro311]

I made a similar post in another thread, but I thought it would be most appropriate to make this its own topic. As an FYI, I searched the forum for consulting and I/O, and found limited results scattered about different threads. So again, I thought this topic deserved its own thread. I apologize if any mods disagree (feel free to move as you see fit).

So anyway...

I am Psy.D. student currently on my internship year in a university counseling center setting. While I enjoy clinical work and would be okay with pursuing a career that balances clinical and administrative/supervisory work in more typical clinical settings (UCC, VA, etc.), I am fascinated and excited about the idea of pursuing a more consulting and/or I/O route in my career (very interested in executive coaching, HR, leadership development, training, employment screenings, working at systemic levels as well as team/individual, etc.). However, I have little business experience (accounting and microeconomics courses in my undergrad, as well as management/administration and supervision/consultation courses in my grad program). In addition, while I have a wide array of clinical experiences (child/adolescent psychiatric hospital, high schools, CMCH, halfway house, and 2 UCC's), I do not have training experience in a business or corporate setting (but I certainly do have consultation experience within these settings).

So I am wondering - what are the possible routes a clinical psychologist can pursue in order to have a more consulting/business-focused career?

1) Does it likely require earning a certificate in business or I/O psych? Or even as far as an MBA or MA in I/O psych?
2) If a certificate/additional MA are not necessary, are there many postdocs out there which have significant consulting or I/O emphases (and that clinical psychology grads can realistically obtain)?
3) Or is it less about the education/postdoc, and more about getting lucky in finding a job and mentor in the field (and of course, networking)? If so, again, how realistic is that for a clinical psychology grad?
4) Also...I have been looking into joining a couple APA divisions (consulting, I/O psych), and I am interested in hearing whether these resources have been helpful for clinical psychology doctorates make the transition to consulting or I/O.

All in all, I think gaining consulting/business experience during my postdoc and/or early on in my career would be very beneficial and a great fit with my interests - as it would leave the door open to pursuing a consulting/business career, an independent practice, or prepare me more for administrative positions in clinical settings down the road. If anyone has gone this route, plans on going this route, or knows someone else who went this route after earning their doctorate in clinical psych, I very much appreciate any guidance or feedback you can give me!

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[erg923]

The Veterans Health Administration arm of the the VA offers a two year post-doc in organizational development based out of the VISN office in Cincinnati that is open and actually prefers clinical/counseling folks.

However, my understanding is that its is still relatively hard to break into corporate consulting outside the VA though, as the private sector really likes to see alot of experience in its applicants.

 

[2012PhD]

The Veterans Health Administration arm of the the VA offers a two year post-doc in organizational development based out of the VISN office in Cincinnati that is open and actually prefers clinical/counseling folks.

However, my understanding is that its is still relatively hard to break into corporate consulting outside the VA though, as the private sector really likes to see alot of experience in its applicants.

One way to break into the private sector I/O stuff is by doing pre-employment testing for upper level positions and fitness for duty assessments. Psychologists generally do these as opposed to MBA.

 

[Markro311]

The Veterans Health Administration arm of the the VA offers a two year post-doc in organizational development based out of the VISN office in Cincinnati that is open and actually prefers clinical/counseling folks.

However, my understanding is that its is still relatively hard to break into corporate consulting outside the VA though, as the private sector really likes to see alot of experience in its applicants.

Thanks so much for sharing, erg! I am researching that now. Do you happen to know how many fellowships they award per year?

 

[Markro311]

One way to break into the private sector I/O stuff is by doing pre-employment testing for upper level positions and fitness for duty assessments. Psychologists generally do these as opposed to MBA.

Thank you!

Are you aware of the typical postdoc (or early career employment) opportunities available for psychologists to pursue these roles? Is it more so private practice consulting, or are there postdocs/jobs to apply for these positions?

 

[erg923]

Thanks so much for sharing, erg! I am researching that now. Do you happen to know how many fellowships they award per year?

Varies from what I understand. I believe last year that had 11 applicants and took 6. Extensive travel is required, as all the consulting is done nationwide at VA facilities/med centers. The Cincinnati office is just that. Your office.

Wife and I are discussing this issue now as I decide whether or not to apply.

 

[Markro311]

Varies from what I understand. I believe last year that had 11 applicants and took 6. Extensive travel is required, as all the consulting is done nationwide at VA facilities/med centers. The Cincinnati office is just that. Your office.

Wife and I are discussing this issue now as I decide whether or not to apply.

I really appreciate all the info, thank you 🙂 That definitely sounds like something I would be interested in. I don't have any clinical experience in a VA, so I wonder if that would hinder my chances? I do have two years (well two summers and 1 winter break) experience working in a VA (retiring records, assisting in the installation of telehealth units, etc.) prior to grad school, so I at least am familiar with the VA system and culture.

 

[Markro311]

Is anyone familiar with DRI Consulting? They offer I/O training for practicum, pre-doctoral internship, and post-doctoral internship. http://www.dric.com/company/trainingatdric.htm

 

[2012PhD]

Thank you!

Are you aware of the typical postdoc (or early career employment) opportunities available for psychologists to pursue these roles? Is it more so private practice consulting, or are there postdocs/jobs to apply for these positions?

Fitness for duty and pre-employment testing are typically carried out by private practice psychologists who built connections with certain organizations. I have seen professors and private practitioners in clinical fields do these type of assessments.

 

[2012PhD]

Varies from what I understand. I believe last year that had 11 applicants and took 6. Extensive travel is required, as all the consulting is done nationwide at VA facilities/med centers. The Cincinnati office is just that. Your office.

Wife and I are discussing this issue now as I decide whether or not to apply.

Cool. Looks like a good program. They pay more than any clinical post-doc at a VA so that helps. After finishing this program, you are also eligible for licensure as a psychologist since it gets you the clinical hours you need. I can't apply because of the location and travel, but it looks like a good deal. I bet when you finish the fellowship you are eligible for upper level management positions at the VA that pay significantly or you can just go private sector.

 

[PerhapsMaybeOk]

Wouldn't it be funny if this was really 3 sockpuppets talking to one another...

 

[Markro311]

Wouldn't it be funny if this was really 3 sockpuppets talking to one another...

Considering erg's/my join dates on this board, that's not very likely. 😉 Nothing wrong with discussing and brainstorming career options with colleagues.

 

[edieb]

Wouldn't it be funny if this was really 3 sockpuppets talking to one another...

That was the funniest comment I ever read!😀

 

[roubs]

I mean I've just heard on the street that Capella is really great for what you are talking about.


sorry, wanted to be sockpuppet #4.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

1) Does it likely require earning a certificate in business or I/O psych? Or even as far as an MBA or MA in I/O psych?
An MBA or MA in I/O may or may not be helpful. There are two primary hurdles: gaining knowledge & then convincing companies that you are worth the $.

2) If a certificate/additional MA are not necessary, are there many postdocs out there which have significant consulting or I/O emphases (and that clinical psychology grads can realistically obtain)?
Not for someone with a background in clinical psychology. Most I/O people come from MA/MS I/O programs and/or did some type of work in the business world that gave them similar training. There are fewer Ph.D. in I/O, but they tend to take the top jobs. You can break into that group....but it can be a tough sell to businesses if you don't have a stack of good references from the right people/companies.

3) Or is it less about the education/postdoc, and more about getting lucky in finding a job and mentor in the field (and of course, networking)? If so, again, how realistic is that for a clinical psychology grad?
Finding a mentor is a large part of whether or not someone will be successful in I/O. If you thought people were snooty about where you went to school in Clinical Psychology...they have nothing on the business world. If you didn't go to a top program, you pretty much need to take the longer road of working under someone to be seen as credible. Some people make their own credibility by building their consulting practice from the ground up....but most of those people fail because the market is stacked against them.

If anyone has gone this route, plans on going this route, or knows someone else who went this route after earning their doctorate in clinical psych, I very much appreciate any guidance or feedback you can give me!
Networking is key. Some people start by volunteering for committees/administrative opportunities at their clinical position, and gain organizational experience that way. Industrial experience is a bit harder to come by, though opportunities are out there. The best and worst thing about consulting work is that it can be as broad or narrow as you want. I don't know if there is a clear path from one field to the next, as most people I know who have worked in both worlds made the transition more organically. I was previoulsy a consultant in the corp world, so I know enough to be dangerous ( 😀 )...but I'm still trying to figure out the right niche so that I can leverage my experience from both worlds.

 

[Inquisitive123]

I also have a couple questions about clinical Ph.D. programs, and whether they overlap with I.O. psychology ( I just created an account with SDN, and think they belong here). I've heard that a clinical Ph.D in social psychology can qualify an individual to consult corporations.

1) Is this true? If so, what areas of social psych may cross over to the organizational side? If not, what sort of work can a clinical psychologist do for corporations?
2) Clinical programs also qualify individuals to conduct therapy. Are there many positions in corporations where I would be able to conduct therapy?

 

[erg923]

I also have a couple questions about clinical Ph.D. programs, and whether they overlap with I.O. psychology ( I just created an account with SDN, and think they belong here). I've heard that a clinical Ph.D in social psychology can qualify an individual to consult corporations.

1) Is this true? If so, what areas of social psych may cross over to the organizational side? If not, what sort of work can a clinical psychologist do for corporations?
2) Clinical programs also qualify individuals to conduct therapy. Are there many positions in corporations where I would be able to conduct therapy?

Yep, you're a lil confused. There is no "clincial social ph.d." The ph.d is either in "clincial psychology" or "social pschology." The latter is purely experimental and will prepare one for research only. Consulting with a company would be possible with the right expertise and experience I suppose, but not sure why they would hire you for that when they could just hire a I/O psychologist who is specifically trained for that.

A ph.d in clinical psychology (or counseling psychology) whill prepare you for applied work with patients. I'm not sure what you mean about positions in corporations where I would be able to conduct therapy though. A person who has health insurance (which most corporations will help provide) has the freedom to see whomever they desire out in the community. A compnay could recommend you highly as therapist, but I dont think Google has an in-house mental health clinic, if thats what you're asking? If they do, I doubt thats a job that goes to the fresh out of grad school folks, know what Im sayin? Police departments, on the other hand, often have psychologists that work for them that provide fitness for duty evals, stress debriefings, and short-term crisis work though

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I also have a couple questions about clinical Ph.D. programs, and whether they overlap with I.O. psychology ( I just created an account with SDN, and think they belong here). I've heard that a clinical Ph.D in social psychology can qualify an individual to consult corporations.

Consult about....what? That is the rub, as you need to have a targeted area before you can figure out if you have the training. The term "consulting" is like "teaching", as it really doesn't discribe WHAT or HOW.

1) Is this true? If so, what areas of social psych may cross over to the organizational side? If not, what sort of work can a clinical psychologist do for corporations?

I have seen psychologists do executive coaching (which in and of itself is a loaded term that covers), which covers things like stress management, public speaking, imagery, psychotherapy, communication skills, etc. The "I" and "O" can have parts that cross over in both areas, it all depends on your area of focus.

2) Clinical programs also qualify individuals to conduct therapy. Are there many positions in corporations where I would be able to conduct therapy?

Mostly through EAP (employee assistance programs), and these are most likely outsourced positions. Some of the contracts can be lucrative, while other contracts just pay the overhead. I know someone who was paid to "be available" for consultation by a few corporations. It was an interesting niche where he worked with high-ranking officials on whatever issue they had. I would NOT recommend trying to get this job, as it was quite the unique situation, though I wanted to mention it because it was very much an "outside of the box" opportunity he found through his more traditional EAP and corporate consulting work. Many of the more sought after jobs (not run of the mill positions) only become an option with *significant* experience and clout. An early career clinician would have little to no shot at them.

 

[aequitasveritas]

The grandiose aspirations of the pups is sometimes a little scary

These pups are the kind that think they are going to get a job as a "consultant", people will call them doctor, and they will interact as a prime minister to the throne.

I agree with T4C above and I said it years ago in a related thread. Many I/O and especially "consulting" programs metaphorically prepare you for a degree in speaking. The question becomes...what in the world do you have the credentials to say, and to whom?

I do not meant o be entirely snarky, and often sdn threads drift too far into quarrelsome debate. Yet this is a point that I think is worth contending- that the field as long decided to dilute "expertise" into a McDonaldized degree.

Beware of anything non-funded especially in I/O.

 

[IOPsych]

The grandiose aspirations of the pups is sometimes a little scary

These pups are the kind that think they are going to get a job as a "consultant", people will call them doctor, and they will interact as a prime minister to the throne.

I agree with T4C above and I said it years ago in a related thread. Many I/O and especially "consulting" programs metaphorically prepare you for a degree in speaking. The question becomes...what in the world do you have the credentials to say, and to whom?

I do not meant o be entirely snarky, and often sdn threads drift too far into quarrelsome debate. Yet this is a point that I think is worth contending- that the field as long decided to dilute "expertise" into a McDonaldized degree.

Beware of anything non-funded especially in I/O.

I'm curious as to what you mean by a "degree in speaking"?

Are you saying that I/O offers nothing useful to the field of psychology?

 

[aequitasveritas]

I'm curious as to what you mean by a "degree in speaking"?

Are you saying that I/O offers nothing useful to the field of psychology?

No. I said to avoid non-funded programs. Funded research I/O programs are valuable.

There are many, many schools offering "consulting" garbage degrees in leadership or whatnot. These programs proclaim to train "consultants" and ineed grant doctorates in "contulting".
The real question becomes,,,what the hell are they consulting?! This is like a medical school that trains MDs to wear white coats and write on note pads but does not teach them medicine. Imagine a degree in doctoring...the process of being a doctor. No, one needs to know a content area to consult anything!

Therefore, the entire idea of a consulting or leadership degree is itself ironic.

 

[IOPsych]

No. I said to avoid non-funded programs. Funded research I/O programs are valuable.

There are many, many schools offering "consulting" garbage degrees in leadership or whatnot. These programs proclaim to train "consultants" and ineed grant doctorates in "contulting".
The real question becomes,,,what the hell are they consulting?! This is like a medical school that trains MDs to wear white coats and write on note pads but does not teach them medicine. Imagine a degree in doctoring...the process of being a doctor. No, one needs to know a content area to consult anything!

Therefore, the entire idea of a consulting or leadership degree is itself ironic.

my apologies...I thought you were lumping all I/O programs as "consulting" programs.

I hadn't heard of PhDs in consulting.

 

[Ollie123]

Talked with a lot of IO folks (we have one of the best programs in the country here), and strongly considered entering that field myself - still might try and work on the periphery of it.

The good ones are more like degrees in "Business Statistics", and are not about things like public speaking, leadership, etc. Certainly that information is covered, but one doesn't become qualified to be a consultant after taking a couple courses in consulting and leadership, despite what many of the weaker programs would have you believe (same thing for clinical work). I think the stereotypical view that most undergraduates have of consultants involves far more fluff, and far less matrix algebra than in reality.