From MD to PA?
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Do you mean use your MD degree to be a PA? or the possibility of going through PA school after your MD degree?
I would imagine the former would be highly unlikely while the latter would be unusual but doable
I would imagine the former would be highly unlikely while the latter would be unusual but doable
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I've never heard of doing this. I don't know that the accreditation bodies that control PA accreditation would allow someone who didn't go to PA school to become licensed as a PA. You'd need to check on that.
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I have heard that PA's are protective of their field and feel that someone can't simply transition into being a PA from a medical doctor degree without going thru PA training. Something about a different philosophy of patient care... This is hearsay, tho.
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To get licensed as a PA you have to be certified by NCCPA. To be certified by NCCPA you have to graduate from an ARC-PA accredited PA program. There are no current exceptions. A few states have tried developing their own PA licenses for physicians in the past with uniformly poor results. The bureau of prisons used to hire unlicensed physicians as "PAs" but as I understand it no longer does this. There is at least one state that will not license a PA that has a medical degree.
To answer eternalMD there are a number of programs that accept FMGs into PA programs. Usually they only take FMGs that have been licensed in their own country.
David Carpenter, PA-C
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Why do you want to do that? Just curious though. Well, it's weird but not stupid. People have their own reasons, so I respect that. I think you can contact some PA programs and ask them about that. May be they will waive some courses which you took at medical schools and you can finish the rest at PA school. Since PA doesn't take long time to finish so you can make it.
Wish you luck.😎
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This thread question has come up before, and stems from some confusion in thinking of PA and MD being different off-ramps from the same road, which isn't true.. As others in this thread have mentioned, you can't jump from MD to PA without additional schooling. You have to start over in PA school. People seem to think that since PA's work under the supervision of MDs, that they are somehow at different levels on the same career path. But in fact that is not the case. None of your MD education/experience translates to PA licensure. It's basically the same as asking how to switch from an MD to being a lawyer, or a dentist. You and a PA aren't in the same profession. They may look like they are performing similar roles, but they work under different organizations, have different requirements for licensure, have different schools. Basically unrelated. Or about as related as a horse and a camel -- one can't become the other but both have similar beasts or burden roles.
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Perhaps the more important question is: why is this question being asked? Are you interested in opportunities for medical school graduates who have no residency experience?
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I've seen several FMGs become PAs. They go to PA school because they couldn't get a residency and were a bit older, had a family to feed
As Core0 said, you do have to go to PA school. There are no exceptions that I know of
As Core0 said, you do have to go to PA school. There are no exceptions that I know of
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I agree that going through all the work of med school in order to be a PA would be a waste, but what if the person cannot handle to responsibility (or doesn't want to) of being the man-in-charge but still wants to do med stuff.
Believe me, some days it would be nice to be able to work a shift and leave the hospital at the hospital when you walk out the door.
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If only nurses understood that by going to nursing school that doesnt equal been able to practice primary care medicine. But for some reason we are allowing it!!!
Isnt it ironic!! That PA's defend their territory with more passion that us physicians!!!
at least PA' curriculum resemble medical school curriculum, but the NP/RN curriculum is a joke compare to medical school curriculum in terms of clinical medicine.
I still remember a nurse in the surgical intercare asking me why we dont turn off the insulin drip on a DKA pt with a glucose <150 but with an Anion Gap of 21, I almost fell to the floor!!!
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Even though MDs without residency can't practice as PAs (or something equivalent), I do think they should be able to and there are valid reasons why someone might want to. If a person makes it through medical school but has some sort of health problem, family issue, or other logistical problem that interfere with completing a residency, what are they supposed to do? I would see having some sort of PA option for MD holders without a residency to be equivalent to how one can often leave a PhD program prematurely and still wind up with a masters degree.
I am skeptical about if there is anything inherent in the PA profession that an MD could not perform. If nothing else, a condensed program to focus on those aspects of PA work that MDs don't cover might be a good way to bridge it.
I think it is really unfortunate that a person with a medical degree but no residency has so few employment options, when you consider the amount of knowledge and training that a medical degree represents.
i still think this is the dumbest idea i have ever heard....there are plenty of options for someone with an md
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In theory there are alternatives, but how many of them are really practical to obtain?
I am skeptical because I've noticed that even though many people here recommend at least completing an internship to be able to work as a GP, in reality it's quite difficult to find employment with just an internship. With the current economic situation, how likely is it to break into a non-medical career unless you already have connections or experience in the field?
Sure, for those who can complete residency doing PA work would make no sense, but seven years (assuming a minimum of three years for residency) is a long time to commit to any career path and not everyone who starts out with the intention of completing it may be capable of it by the end of that time. If you're not fully trained by completing a residency, I think it would make sense that you should be able to work under the supervision of another physician rather than having all your clinical experience and knowledge go completely to waste while you scramble to get into some odd job that may have nothing to do with medicine.
I am skeptical because I've noticed that even though many people here recommend at least completing an internship to be able to work as a GP, in reality it's quite difficult to find employment with just an internship. With the current economic situation, how likely is it to break into a non-medical career unless you already have connections or experience in the field?
Sure, for those who can complete residency doing PA work would make no sense, but seven years (assuming a minimum of three years for residency) is a long time to commit to any career path and not everyone who starts out with the intention of completing it may be capable of it by the end of that time. If you're not fully trained by completing a residency, I think it would make sense that you should be able to work under the supervision of another physician rather than having all your clinical experience and knowledge go completely to waste while you scramble to get into some odd job that may have nothing to do with medicine.
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BigPharmD,
"i still think this is the dumbest idea i have ever heard....there are plenty of options for someone with an md"
What are these options? Please be specific, I'm tired of people throwing out intangible ideas.
"i still think this is the dumbest idea i have ever heard....there are plenty of options for someone with an md"
What are these options? Please be specific, I'm tired of people throwing out intangible ideas.
well not knowing this persons complete situation lets see...
do a 1 or 2 year preventive med residency
get an MPH
work as faculty for a med school/nursing school/PA school/Pharm school
get a job in industry
Teach high school
Be creative...become a patient advocate...charge an hourly fee
I just think that it would be dumb to become a PA...so many people would die to have the education you have and now you want back track
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Ok BigPharmD,
THANK YOU! We're getting some where. But I need more specific info. Here's the dilemma I'm having:
Criteria for job: the first two are almost absoultes. The others, I would really like, but understand that they may not come to fruition.
A. provide enough income to pay of student loans >$250K with interest accruing - I refuse to die with a loan over my head.
B. able to retire approx age 70-80 with sufficient funds for the rest of my life.
C. enough income to live comfortably (i.e. mid-middle to low-middle class)
D. decent hours ((preferred) - but willing to work 12 - 14hr days just not 7d/wk)
D. financially able to start and maintain a family (children) (again preferred) includes health insurance etc...
E. Own a house
With regard to what you said:
1. Preventive Medicine - excellent idea 🙂 I'm looking into this. If you have any experience or any suggestions on how to start on this track, please share it.
2. Get an MPH - Ok...but money is a problem. While I could get a job as to pay for the MPH, the >250K loan I already have accrues. Also, I can collect as many degrees as I want. However, what would I do with this MPH except for #1?
3. Faculty: Excellent idea. I love to teach. But how do I do this? I've run into dead ends so far... Please share. Do I need a Ed. degree?
4. Jobs in the Industry - great idea for those love research...
5. Teach High school - sort of conflicts with what you said: "so many people would die to have the education you have and now you want back track." Lets be honest, most of the kids in my high school slept through most classes.
Overall bigPharmD...thank you for you input. I'm looking into some of the suggestions. If you have any specifics, I'd love to hear them
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As far as I know, preventive med programs start at the PGY-2 level, so if you're having difficulty getting a PGY-1 spot, this is not an option.
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Please explain.
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I know a pharmacist who became a "patient healthcare advocate." This guy basically runs a business where people hire him to basically advocate for them. He makes sure they get into a doctor, he contacts their insurance company if there are problems, he checks on them in the hospital, double checks medications, etc. There are all kinds of patient advocate jobs. Hospitals hire them. This guy was more business savy and makes a very good living doing it.
There are many things you could do with an MPH. You could do research, teach, work for the government, or work for big pharma. Depends on what direction you take while getting your mph. An MD at a local med school did her intern year and then quit, got an MPH, and now works for the Med school as the director of international programs. Do a little research I am sure you can find some similar people.
Are you thinking of going the PA route? Why do you not like medicine?
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I disagree. The "licensure" requirements blocking MDs from becoming PAs is just pure artificial "turf protection" and nothing more. The PAs will spin this tale that MDs arent qualified to be PAs because we "arent trained in a supervision model" but thats obviously crap--residency is minimum 3 years training in a "supervisory" model.
MDs could easily transition into the PA role and nobody would know the difference.
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You actually don't disagree with my statements. I never said there is anything special about a PA that makes them exclusively qualified to do what they do. What I did say is that they simply aren't exits on the same highway. They aren't on the path to becoming a doctor, as a masters might be on the path to becoming a PhD. They are a totally different profession, with overlapping duties. So no you can't fall back on that job just because it perhaps requires a lesser skillset. (And I don't disagree with you that an MD could do the job, but that's really not the point. A tax lawyer could do a decent job as an accountant, but that doesn't mean one could just skip the whole CPA schooling and licensing - it's simply a different profession).
Now, you can argue that the turf protection is artificial, but that's between you and your congressman. I actually think it's short sighted to go this route though because once you make them an offramp on the same road, you open the door for traffic the other way as well. So no, you can't simply jump from unlicensed MD to PA, anymore than you could jump to law, or accounting, or any other licensed and regulated profession.
OP, Don't get confused by the fact that their roles are similar and that one is supervised by the other. It's a different path, not stops on the same path. Whether it should be is a different question, but it simply is.
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nsap,
other suggestion(s) for one with an MD degree:
-physician recruiter/head hunter for a physician search or perhaps a locum tenens firm. I know there are people with Caribbean MD's who never did residency who have done this, or so I have heard.
-could get a master's in health admin or MBA and go into hospital administration. I know this requires more school and more money. I'm not sure about the marketability of this vs. an MPH degree, but would think the business-type degree like this might be more marketable...
other suggestion(s) for one with an MD degree:
-physician recruiter/head hunter for a physician search or perhaps a locum tenens firm. I know there are people with Caribbean MD's who never did residency who have done this, or so I have heard.
-could get a master's in health admin or MBA and go into hospital administration. I know this requires more school and more money. I'm not sure about the marketability of this vs. an MPH degree, but would think the business-type degree like this might be more marketable...
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I'm not sure this is the problem, actually. I think the problem is that a medical student has gone through a number of things that would essentially be useless to a PA. The vast majority of years 1 and 2 are helpful to MD's, but not exactly practically important. A PA working in an ER or PCP office would rarely use all the psych, obgyn, surgery and inpt medicine that medical students learn. So you strip all that away, and medical school training has afforded less time to treating appropriately the things that a PA would see daily. Medical school is about getting the potential to be a competent clinician...medical school does not give someone the skills to see patients in the same way a PA does. I don't know much about PA school, but I am pretty sure it is mostly clinical work focusing on a less broad range of medicine. So could an MD forget residency and be ready to practice in the role of a PA? Possibly. But possibly not.
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2 good options for you:
1) get a PhD. I know it's a lot of work, but people with MD, PhD degrees easily get high paying salaries doing bench research. This would further legitimize your ability to teach at a medical school, although without a residency, probably the concept of teaching clinical medicine is unlikely.
2) get a JD. Lawyers who are also MD's can do well in the legal system. Just remember to defend doctors, not sue them. Med-mal is a really dirty profession.
In the meantime, look at community colleges or small Universities for moonlighting options. You could easily teach anatomy to undergrads, nursing students or EMT/Paramedics. It is not lucrative, but would probably help pay the bills while you are looking for a job or trying one of the previously suggested options.
1) get a PhD. I know it's a lot of work, but people with MD, PhD degrees easily get high paying salaries doing bench research. This would further legitimize your ability to teach at a medical school, although without a residency, probably the concept of teaching clinical medicine is unlikely.
2) get a JD. Lawyers who are also MD's can do well in the legal system. Just remember to defend doctors, not sue them. Med-mal is a really dirty profession.
In the meantime, look at community colleges or small Universities for moonlighting options. You could easily teach anatomy to undergrads, nursing students or EMT/Paramedics. It is not lucrative, but would probably help pay the bills while you are looking for a job or trying one of the previously suggested options.
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Disagree that having an MD is particularly helpful in law. 99.999% of all medmal lawyers have no medical training, and have no need for it. Lawyers find it easy to find a physician to consult on their cases, and much easier to bill the clients for this than to try to be their own expert. So in some respects outsourcing for medical insight/consulting is more lucrative than to have someone with a JD/MD. There aren't many people with both degrees, but for the most part people end up using either one degree or the other and find no effective way to combine the two. And law firms certainly won't pay someone more for having an MD.
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I wasn't suggesting an md if would be their own expert. I was saying it might be helpful.
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some people would not think so
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agreed. i could do the cardiology pa's job tomorrow with no hitches. its certainly not apples and oranges. its red tape, but little more.
D
deleted6669
I would love to see you try to do this guy's job:
http://depts.washington.edu/cardweb/faculty/member.php?view=54
you can run an EP lab like he does, right? do a lot of ablations in your spare time?
http://uwmedicine.washington.edu/NR...2-E4545191B4F1/0/25cardiologycardiacEPlab.pdf
and you wouldn't have a problem being the coroner for a large community, right?
http://www.jameslkramer.com/coroner.html
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But these PAs definitely did not learn how to do these things from PA school.
I have seen brand new PAs straight out of PA school learning how to work for both cardiothoracic surgeons and for anesthesiologists/intensivists in the SICU. These new grads were totally unqualified for their jobs (though still enjoying the salaries I assume) and were basically getting on the job training for the first 6 months to a year.
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I know what you are saying. I'm still saying it's not helpful. Or at least not helpful enough to justify the additional time and cost. Spending 4 years in med school to get the MD is not nearly as useful as spending those 4 years working as a medmal lawyer. Nor is any law firm going to be excited that you have an MD. So it's a waste. If you know this is what you want to do, do not go to med school. And don't look at the MD as opening any doors in this area -- it really doesn't. Medical info is cheap to rent from experts -- nobody is going to pay you a premium to bring it to the table.
D
deleted6669
depends. some folks go to specialty focus programs for surgery(cornell, etc), peds(colorado), etc.
other folks do lots of electives in 1 specialty so have a leg up in that specialty. others do residencies(see www.appap.org)
but, yes, a lot of folks do learn specialty medicine through ojt. med students do the same thing right out of school but in a more structured/intense fashion i.e. residency, granted for slave wages...
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he's already an md
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3 words... PREVENTIVE MEDICINE RESIDENCY... do a Google search and you'll find the path for the rest of your life... all you need is ONE YEAR of clinical internship and then you are done practicing medicine for the rest of your life. After that, it's a 1 year MPH... not only is it free, but they PAY YOU to get it... then you do a year of administration at a state health dept, CDC or some other health related dept... you then become boarded in preventive medicine... tada, a full fledged doctor... salaries in the 140-190K range... and if you decide you want to practice clinical medicine after that, its easy... do a one year fellowship in occupational medicine, all outpatient bread and butter primary care with some organizational aspects attached. I believe that meets all your criteria above. Oh, and even better... applying for preventive medicine is OUTSIDE the match. You finish an internship and then apply for it a few months before you want to begin. There are TONS of programs, all with varying MPH subspecialties and internship opportunities... shop around... the world is your oyster.
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Good one!
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Can unlicensed MDs do such consulting?
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Could you? Sure.
Would you get asked to do it? Probably not.
Without some "expertise" in the area (ie: "I've been a practicing colorectal surgeon for five years") you'd get torn apart on cross.
So you'd be relegated to informal consultation, and in the end it's easier and cheaper to get one person who can give you a pre-trial consult and then give the expert testimony.
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1. Apples to oranges comparison. A new grad MD is just as well prepared (if not moreso) as a new grad PA to work as a PA in cardiology. Thats what we are debating here, not whether a PA with 30 years experience could be replaced by a fresh grad MD.
2. That guy doesnt "run" the EP lab, the PDF file clearly states that the medical director of the lab is an MD. By the way, they also list an ARNP on their brochure, I guess she "runs" the EP lab too. 🙄
3. He's a coroner, not a medical examiner. Big difference. Getting a job as a coroner requires nothing more than a pulse, its a political job, not a medical one. You dont need any medical training at all to do that job, and its common to find "coroners" who dont have any college training whatsoever in the sticks.
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This sounds too good to be true! I thought in some cases you have to pay for the MPH! Is anyone worried about the jobmarket for preventive medicine?
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Become a premed adviser at some college...
I can't understand how someone can go through 4 years premed, volunteer and shadow doctors for some years, then do 4 years of medschool, and then suddenly decide to skip residency altogether without even trying it. If it is the lack of love to pursue healthcare, then why even go into PA? On the other hand, does it really take you 4 years of medschool to understand that you are completely in the wrong field? It's hard to imagine that posts like these are honest...
And choosing to kill several years and study to become a PA vs doing a couple of years of residency makes no financial or rudimentary logical sense. Either I am missing out on some big concept or we are not getting the whole story (such as a serious mental illness...).
I can't understand how someone can go through 4 years premed, volunteer and shadow doctors for some years, then do 4 years of medschool, and then suddenly decide to skip residency altogether without even trying it. If it is the lack of love to pursue healthcare, then why even go into PA? On the other hand, does it really take you 4 years of medschool to understand that you are completely in the wrong field? It's hard to imagine that posts like these are honest...
And choosing to kill several years and study to become a PA vs doing a couple of years of residency makes no financial or rudimentary logical sense. Either I am missing out on some big concept or we are not getting the whole story (such as a serious mental illness...).
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It's called burnout. One would think that after 4 years premed, 4 years medschool, one would be able to afford to live a decent lifestyle, but the truth is, despite "being paid" during residency, the debt only accrues. I am a year out of med school and for the last 5 years I've been sleeping on an aerobed and now I barely have enough savings to furnish my apt. Also, there is a respect factor. As a resident, you get little respect. As a practicing PA (no one know how many years out you are), you are essentially a physician extender so there is less questioning of what you say or do by the rest of the staff. The other issue, is that most premeds, despite shadowing a doc for all the 5 minutes in their premed careers (lets face it, most of the "clinical experience" on med school applications is bogus or minimal at best) don't know what it's like to practice medicine until you are thrown into the system. Truthfully, the system sucks (in case you haven't heard from the news) and the doctors get a large part of the blame/responsibility/liability without the input to change the system (because obviously MBA's and senators are much more qualified).
I think posts like these are the most honest...
I think posts like these are the most honest...
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No preventive medicine residency makes you pay for the MPH as far as I've seen. The job market is pretty stable because there will always be a need for medically trained administrators. I agree, it sounds too good to be true... but it is.
