Frustrated and miserable!

[kappa1]

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Hello,

This is my first post. I'm in my 4th year of PhD (6th total MSTP). I am working on a project which at my PI's suggestion I started from scratch 3 yr ago, based on my PI's interest in studying a new factor that no one has looked at in our model system. I had to set up and troubleshoot every expt, and often had to consult with other labs since NO ONE in my lab had studied this factor before. As the only grad student in a huge lab, I've been pretty much on my own on where this project is going. Things have finally worked out, but it took a while to get things started. No publications yet...

Anyway, after all this I feel like my advisor is no longer interested in my project, my data, or all the work I've put into setting it up with no help from other lab members. He tries to send me off in other directions A LOT, often assigning me other tasks before even letting me know about it, and I doubt I'll even get acknowledged for those results. When I try to re-focus things back to my own work, he starts asking me about basic expts I already repeated months ago, not really keeping up with the progress I've made. It's like in one ear and out the other!

I really feel like I've been short-changed on the mentoring part. I am treated no different than the many technicians in our lab, except they have better pay and nicer hours. When I bring up the notion of applying for grants or NRSA's, he tells me not to worry about these things. Compared to other students at my level. basically it just feels like I'm going to work everyday but not really being trained as a scientist.

Sooo...I'd really like some advice/encouragement from others who've gone through something similar. Is your advisor a Jeckyll-n-Hyde type of person? How can I cope with this and still graduate in a reasonable amount of time? Changing my lab is out of the question at this point, and I certainly don't want to start a new project. 🙁 Should I discuss things with the program director? What if I have to start over from scratch??? Yikes!!

 

[kamio]

I am still in my undergrad so I don't know if my advice will help much, but I had a very similar situation to yours for my research experience this past summer. I was initially given a very interesting project that the PI was very excited about; however, as time went on, complications and funding issues arose, and my project quickly took a backseat. I received very little mentoring, and became demotivated as it seemed nothing I did would have any impact. Granted, it must be ten times more frustrating in your case since you are at a much higher level and your work will significantly influence you, but I think I know exactly how your are feeling. It's really too bad that some PIs, though as bright and nice as they are, just don't have the hearts to mentor students.

If I were in your shoes, I would talk to the PI if I feel comfortable, and try to swing the project in a direction that is exciting for both of him/her and me. This happened to my labmate whose project was also taking a backseat. He went to the PI and added some new twist to his project and the PI became immediately interested again. However, if you don't feel comfortable talking to your PI, I think your idea of talking to the program director is a good one. See what your director suggests and how you can work things out. After all, all chairs love their students! =)

 

[kappa1]

I am still in my undergrad so I don't know if my advice will help much, but I had a very similar situation to yours for my research experience this past summer. I was initially given a very interesting project that the PI was very excited about; however, as time went on, complications and funding issues arose, and my project quickly took a backseat. I received very little mentoring, and became demotivated as it seemed nothing I did would have any impact. Granted, it must be ten times more frustrating in your case since you are at a much higher level and your work will significantly influence you, but I think I know exactly how your are feeling. It's really too bad that some PIs, though as bright and nice as they are, just don't have the hearts to mentor students.

If I were in your shoes, I would talk to the PI if I feel comfortable, and try to swing the project in a direction that is exciting for both of him/her and me. This happened to my labmate whose project was also taking a backseat. He went to the PI and added some new twist to his project and the PI became immediately interested again. However, if you don't feel comfortable talking to your PI, I think your idea of talking to the program director is a good one. See what your director suggests and how you can work things out. After all, all chairs love their students! =)

Hi Kamio,

Thanks for the input. I don't think any student should be in such a situation, grad or undergrad especially. I try to convince myself saying "Suck it up, get your publications out, and then plan your defense." My PI tries to convince me otherwise, saying I'll get more pubs if I stay on another year, but I don't think another year in this lab would be in my best interest. I also want to get some advice and help w/potential collaborations from my committee members, so perhaps things will work out without causing an uproar 😕

 

[Universe_Explorer]

Hi Kamio,

Thanks for the input. I don't think any student should be in such a situation, grad or undergrad especially. I try to convince myself saying "Suck it up, get your publications out, and then plan your defense." My PI tries to convince me otherwise, saying I'll get more pubs if I stay on another year, but I don't think another year in this lab would be in my best interest. I also want to get some advice and help w/potential collaborations from my committee members, so perhaps things will work out without causing an uproar 😕

Unfortunately, it seems as though this sort of thing happens a lot...here's my advice: Publish your work. Make sure your committee is on board with your project, and agree to a feasible conclusion for your work with them. Continue to talk to your mentor about how much you care about what you've done. If you are published, and your committee feels as though you've been successful, your mentor will follow suit. Be professional, but be firm - this is your project, you've worked on it for years, and you want to see it through - you'll be surprised at how far it takes you. Now, if you don't get your work published none of this works, because you have to back up what you've done with outside peer review before you approach a committee about finishing up (in my opinion)...good luck, keep your head up. It takes a long time to get a PhD, and at some point in everyone's grad school experience the lab, the mentor, the project, and everything else gets kind of turned upside down. You'll be fine...

 

[dr.z]

I'm sorry to hear this. I am in my last stage of Ph.D, and I am going through exactly the same thing. It always seems that my PI is interested in other people's work eventhough I spent a lot more time than anyone in the lab. I've accomplished a lot more, but I don't think I'm getting enough credit for it.

I would consult your thesis committee and the director to see how you should approach the problem. I do think though that you have learned alot and become independent which will help you later in the career. Earning Ph.D can be such a painful process.

 

[Andrew_Doan]

Have you sat down and discuss your concerns with your mentor? If you have, then I suggest you have a chat with the program director.

 

[tr]

Have you sat down and discuss your concerns with your mentor? If you have, then I suggest you have a chat with the program director.

I agree that you should discuss the problem directly with your mentor first.

But after that, if I were you I would try to find another sympathetic faculty member with relevant expertise who can offer you advice. Try to talk to the members of your committee during other times, not just scheduled meetings. They are familiar with your research already, and they can offer a sounding board and a sympathetic ear.

Meanwhile, just stand your own ground. You are the expert on your own project by now; don't let your PI send you off in timewasting directions. Just don't do the experiments if they are not relevant to your thesis. That is in your own hands.

It's really difficult (impossible?) to change someone else's behavior, especially that of your boss. But you can change your own behavior, and find the things that work for you. Good luck.

 

[dl2dp2]

i just started my 1st year graduate school (3rd year MSTP). I know a couple of kids in my program who were in similar situations as you do. For practical purposes, I'll give you some very realistic scenarios.

(1) Talk to your MD/PhD program director about this. In my program, our program director is also the chair of pathology + various other chairs etc, and has some clout. Basically if your PI is taking way too long or being ridiculous, there's a possibility your program director can give him a kick in the butt. (I know the program director at JHU and ULCA and WashU are also big shots.) In some cases, the PI says such and such student MUST stay for the work, and our program director says sure, but you have to graduate him first. So what happened was that he graduates on time, and do a "post-doc" before going back to the clinic, even though his publiction list may be still sub-par at the time of graduation. But the advantage is, you can decide if you'll stay around or just quit the lab and get your PhD and run.

(2) One student got screwed over cause his PI was a nobel laureate....the gray hair....the haggard face etc. and our program director couldn't do a thing. no names shall be named. but, if your PI is one of those HHMI etc types and doesn't give a **** then you are sort of in a bind. in that case, you may think about transfer to a different lab, and potentially carry your data with you. Someone else i know did that, though the situation was that the two labs were collaborating. The student and the boss had a huge fight and he decided that he needed to move. The department eventually oked it.

(3) Try to find someone else in the department who might be able to advocate for you. Aside from the MD/PhD program director, each of the graduate programs should have a liasion person, who usually has some clout.

(4) Believe or not, this sort of situation is VERY common. A lot of PIs are not as committed to train students as they are in publishing high profile research. So, first off, BREATHE! You are not alone. Secondly, remember the worst case situation, even if you have to DROP THE HELL OUT of the PhD, you'll still be a doctor regardless and have a great job in the end that pays a lot.

Good luck

 

[Vader]

This situation is extremely common and I am also grappling with this presently. I think that PIs just love novelty and, like anything, when the novelty of your project wears off, the PI may lose interest.

I think the best advice is what tr suggested. The project is yours and believe it or not, you have the ultimate ability to decide what experiments you will do. The important thing is to feel comfortable enough to stand your ground. If you have good reasons for not doing a particular set of experiments (i.e. they are too tangential, low yield, etc), then it is reasonable to convey to your PI your intentions.

Remember, a PI has a conflict of interest--by now you are most likely a highly proficient graduate student and have the ability to generate a bunch of data that the PI may want. However, if the data do not serve your thesis, then you really should not be doing those experiments. Selfish as it may sound, it is YOUR thesis and time to graduation at stake. Your PI is benefiting by having a smart, funded MD/PhD student in the lab. And YOU are always your best advocate.

Hope this helps. Hang in there!

 

[kassie]

Try to tease out the positives and then take control to get done.

Being on your own may be good training for you since a lot of us don't get the full post-doc experience if any. Use this as a mini-post-doc experience.

Is it possible that you can be experiencing the "I'm done with this" feeling a lot of students get when they're ready to move on and defend? I had a great PI and had a string of days (ok, weeks) where I was miserable. I talked to him because we had very good communication. He said "sounds like you're ready to finish." I picked up speed and hauled a** to get done, and it was fun. I would have just lost steam if I didn't talk to him and tried to figure out his motives on my own.

I would talk to your PI honestly and maybe he/she will be able to understand your position and move things forward again. communicate...

 

[SaltySqueegee]

Thank you all for the heads up.

I'm currently in my 2nd year of med school, with my first year of PhD coming soon on the horizon. These are definitely things to keep my head screwed on straight about.

List of things to keep on top of:
-Get through Systems and PathoPhys
-Pass Step 1
-Make sure the PI from this last Summer remembers that he wanted me to be in his lab for my PhD work... ... 🙄
-Try to be my own advocate.... 😎

-Steel underpants... Profit! 👍

 

[kassie]

any update kappa?

 

[gaganheim]

-Steel underpants... Profit! 👍

If profit is a concern, I think a good underpants gnome would pass on the ones made out of steel. That doesn't sound very comfortable. 😀

 

[kappa1]

any update kappa?

First off, thanks to all of you for your helpful suggestions. Basically I've put together an "exit strategy", kind of what Hunter77 and tr advised. I outlined my results in terms of 3 publications, and have a very rought draft of the first one. I put together a timeline in which I hope to get everything accomplished in the next 6 mos. I guess what's the most frustrating about my PI is he's never there when you need him, but I sat down with him and a "sympathetic" committee member to iron out any wrinkles in the plan. He was pretty understanding (he is also an MD/PhD). I literally wrote out and presented ALL of the directions, compared what was "low-yield" that should be dropped, and re-focused on the high yield expts ("see, this is all that's left to do to complete this publication" kind of approach). I'm planning to present this and my first draft manuscript to my next Committee Meeting, which is coming up soon, and do so assertively, so wish me luck!

I think what happens a lot is when you have a very busy PI, they lose track of how much you've done or how long you've really been here, even if you have regular meetings (ours are only once a month). The only person who really takes notice of these things is yourself. I know for the longest time I've been working independently, but until now I thought this was a bad thing since my PI was not taking as much interest in my work compared to other post-doc's or the techs. As the only student, I still think I'm entitled to the most of his mentoring time, BUT I've now realized that I've benefitted indirectly. Learning to be independent on my own project made me isolated but focused, and I think (actually I KNOW) this makes me the most informed about what I need to get it completed, published, and move on (hopefully soon!).

So with that said, my response to any new suggestions which are low-yield and extraneous is "Sorry, but I don't see how that will fit into my timeline for getting this publication out". This was what some faculty on my committee actually advised me when I spoke with them. I think I have a pretty supportive thesis committee, so hopefully it will work out--if not, I'll invest in those steel underpants

 

[kassie]

Nice job kappa. Hope to see some pubs from you soon.
Or I'll be seeing you in the underwear aisle

 

[Vader]

First off, thanks to all of you for your helpful suggestions. Basically I've put together an "exit strategy", kind of what Hunter77 and tr advised. I outlined my results in terms of 3 publications, and have a very rought draft of the first one. I put together a timeline in which I hope to get everything accomplished in the next 6 mos. I guess what's the most frustrating about my PI is he's never there when you need him, but I sat down with him and a "sympathetic" committee member to iron out any wrinkles in the plan. He was pretty understanding (he is also an MD/PhD). I literally wrote out and presented ALL of the directions, compared what was "low-yield" that should be dropped, and re-focused on the high yield expts ("see, this is all that's left to do to complete this publication" kind of approach). I'm planning to present this and my first draft manuscript to my next Committee Meeting, which is coming up soon, and do so assertively, so wish me luck!

I think what happens a lot is when you have a very busy PI, they lose track of how much you've done or how long you've really been here, even if you have regular meetings (ours are only once a month). The only person who really takes notice of these things is yourself. I know for the longest time I've been working independently, but until now I thought this was a bad thing since my PI was not taking as much interest in my work compared to other post-doc's or the techs. As the only student, I still think I'm entitled to the most of his mentoring time, BUT I've now realized that I've benefitted indirectly. Learning to be independent on my own project made me isolated but focused, and I think (actually I KNOW) this makes me the most informed about what I need to get it completed, published, and move on (hopefully soon!).

So with that said, my response to any new suggestions which are low-yield and extraneous is "Sorry, but I don't see how that will fit into my timeline for getting this publication out". This was what some faculty on my committee actually advised me when I spoke with them. I think I have a pretty supportive thesis committee, so hopefully it will work out--if not, I'll invest in those steel underpants

You don't sound so frustrated and miserable anymore... three cheers for SDN therapy! 🙂