Frustrated with some schools' attitudes towards older non-trads?

[osli]

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1) MCAT scores showed a coorelation to USMLE scores.
2) GPA is predictive of ability to achieve in the first two years of medical school
3) Schools have a vested interest in maintaining high entrance stats to maintain reputation and prestige (which can be very important for grant money etc).

I could count on my fingers the number of next year's matriculants who will have a higher MCAT score than mine. I could count on one hand those who will have higher MCAT and GPA.

Like Q said, some schools are just looking for different things. Maybe they did me a favor? Who knows... things always seem to work out for the best.

 

[the brown note]

I have one other thought to add to the mix: it seems that sometimes people do not research the missions of the schools where they want to apply well enough. Your goals should ideally match the school's goals. So if I want to be a researcher, I have no business being upset b/c schools that want to produce clinicians don't accept me. Related to this problem, if you *do* think that you fit the school's mission, you have to be able to back that up with proof. So if I tell an interviewer that I want to go into clinical research, I'd better have some clinical research experience to convince him that I know what I'm talking about.

I second this--med schools have so many qualified applicants that they often try to find people who will be a good "fit" for the school, in addition to having a solid background and numbers. Sometimes, they will interview/accept someone who has slightly lower numbers than their average if they perceive them to be a great fit for the mission and "personality" of the school. The MSAR and school webpages are great sources of info, but also try and talk with current students and your pre-med advisor. Many schools have students who have volunteered to talk with prospective students and/or alumni about their school--if you call the admissions office and briefly explain your situation, the office may put you in touch with these students, even if you're not applying this cycle. Pre-med advisors (yes, you can even contact your alma mater years after you've graduated) may be hit-or-miss, but some are wonderful sources of information! One of my pre-med advisors had collected detailed statistics of applicants from our school over the years, and was able to plug in numbers in his program to help me figure out which schools might be more likely to accept me. It's worth a phone call, at least!

One more thing--just because *you* really like the school does NOT mean that you'd be a great fit for the school--that just means the school is attractive to *you*! You have to be attractive to the school, as well. Just my experiences, FWIW: I was sorely tempted to apply to schools that were a horrible fit for me because I liked certain things about their curriculum or location. I did apply to one school that was a horrible fit, against the advice of a pre-med advisor, and was summarily rejected, despite having competitive numbers. Admissions committees are usually very good at determining what they're looking for (even if it appears to be a mystery to us), and if you're not it, you won't get in no matter how much you want to go there! I also applied to 3 schools I never would have applied to on my own (on the advice of a pre-med advisor), because I was below their numbers according to the MSAR. My advisor had experience with people who had been accepted there, and thought I'd be a great fit for the "feel" of these schools. I got interviews at all 3 of these schools, and was accepted to one of them (haven't gone to committee at one school, and haven't attended the other interview yet).

Basically, this is my long-winded way of saying that fit matters a lot! Is it everything? Of course not--I have solid numbers, and these schools would NOT have interviewed me if I didn't. But my numbers are not so remarkable that they would have warranted a second look from schools, if it wasn't for my fit and prior experiences. Good luck to everyone!

 

[ShyRem]

Unfortunately, many people have horrible pre-med advisors. I had the misfortune to have one of those who wasn't really interested in being a premed advisor... they were woefully out of touch, extremely unhelpful, and in many cases, downright WRONG. Those advisors you're better off without.

I'm happy you had a great advisor. But what should the rest of us do? We twiddle our fingers, stumble along, and pray (pray pray) that someone actually READS the app and doesn't just look at numbers. I mean, for heavens sakes, anyone who can take pchem, ochem and advanced calc all in the same semester and STILL pull As and Bs has got brains enough for med school. But you have to get someone to actually READ the application to see that.

 

[Law2Doc]

What i didnt like, was i was also told that age is taken into account in admissions in regards to how long you could be a practicing physician. So, if a 22 year old with the same scores as me applied, they would be chosen over me.

Given that this is illegal, I find it hard to imagine that they told you this "on the record". There is nothing preventing them from accepting people with higher numerical stats, however.
I don't doubt that age bias and discrimination occurs. But a lot of older SDN types seem to have come through the process successfully without facing any that they are aware of. I've also come across adcom members who were themselves nontrads, so they may have their own biases going the other way. All I can suggest is that when we get further in our careers, we do what we can to pave the road for the next generation.

 

[osli]

All I can suggest is that when we get further in our careers, we do what we can to pave the road for the next generation.

The best suggestion yet. 👍

 

[the brown note]

Unfortunately, many people have horrible pre-med advisors. I had the misfortune to have one of those who wasn't really interested in being a premed advisor... they were woefully out of touch, extremely unhelpful, and in many cases, downright WRONG. Those advisors you're better off without.

I agree! The pre-med advisor at my post-bacc institution was not at all helpful, and was quite out of touch with how the process works. Even though the pre-med advisors at my alma mater were great, I decided to supplement this info with a paid professional consultant (I used both as resources). As a non-trad, I personally felt I needed more advice than SDN, the MSAR, and my pre-med advising office could provide. It wasn't cheap, but I wanted to maximize my chances of getting in the first time I applied. I personally feel that the money was well worth it, as I got some excellent advice and assistance that I believe would have been difficult to obtain elsewhere. But it's definitely not for everyone!

But what should the rest of us do? We twiddle our fingers, stumble along, and pray (pray pray) that someone actually READS the app and doesn't just look at numbers. <snip> But you have to get someone to actually READ the application to see that.

I sincerely hope that the schools you applied to do so with your app! Don't they realize that you have mad culinary skillz, and that your descriptions of baked goods are to die for?! 😀 Good luck!

 

[toothless rufus]

Sometimes stalking and strangling will make people regret their narrow mindedness. 😍

I spent the last year wooing the advisor of a local med school-high school I wanted to attend for location (I could care less where I go). Said I should get a secondary. No dice.

What makes me gassy most is that I went there with the express purpose of getting an HONEST answer to the question "What are my chances here?" And it was nothing but reeling me along, etc. Tell me I am not what you are looking for!

Another thing: Med schools should NOT be allowed to issue secondaries if they are NON-SELECTIVE. For example, I received a secondary from Case Western. Boy, I was excited! Then I called their admissions office. EVERYBODY gets a secondary! Poop! And at $85 times 5000 applicants, that's $425,000 earned for no effort. There should be a law that secondaries are only issued to those they want to interview. Looking for handouts is morally reprehensible.

 

[QofQuimica]

Another thing: Med schools should NOT be allowed to issue secondaries if they are NON-SELECTIVE. For example, I received a secondary from Case Western. Boy, I was excited! Then I called their admissions office. EVERYBODY gets a secondary! Poop! And at $85 times 5000 applicants, that's $425,000 earned for no effort. There should be a law that secondaries are only issued to those they want to interview. Looking for handouts is morally reprehensible.

Almost all schools give out more secondaries than interviews, even schools that screen. The only one I can think of offhand that does not do this is Vanderbilt. (You don't get a secondary there unless you get invited to interview. But then they interview about a zillion people, so it's really not all that different.)

We discussed this issue in the pre-allo forum, and the reason why schools have to charge for secondaries is b/c the money you pay for AMCAS goes to the AAMC, not to the schools. I'd personally prefer schools not to screen based on hard cutoffs with no exceptions in terms of numbers. Schools that have hard cutoffs would never give me a secondary or interview, because I have no undergrad GPA. We've pretty much all agreed here that schools looking beyond our numbers is a GOOD thing, right???

 

[ShyRem]

I sincerely hope that the schools you applied to do so with your app! Don't they realize that you have mad culinary skillz, and that your descriptions of baked goods are to die for?! 😀 Good luck!

You are too kind. Throughout this process, I have realized through experience that some schools read my app, some did not. Interestingly, the one who has so far seemed to have read my app the most thoroughly was a DO school. That interviewer knew every tiny detail on my app right down to my middle name (ok, that one is rather interesting and unique) and courses I took 20 years ago. He was also my toughest interviewer, and the one I enjoyed the most. Very upfront. It was very refreshing. 🙂

No matter what school I go to, I will bring baked goods in from time to time. It's a major stress reliever to bake. 😀

 

[toothless rufus]

Almost all schools give out more secondaries than interviews, even schools that screen. The only one I can think of offhand that does not do this is Vanderbilt. (You don't get a secondary there unless you get invited to interview. But then they interview about a zillion people, so it's really not all that different.)

We discussed this issue in the pre-allo forum, and the reason why schools have to charge for secondaries is b/c the money you pay for AMCAS goes to the AAMC, not to the schools. I'd personally prefer schools not to screen based on hard cutoffs with no exceptions in terms of numbers. Schools that have hard cutoffs would never give me a secondary or interview, because I have no undergrad GPA. We've pretty much all agreed here that schools looking beyond our numbers is a GOOD thing, right???

WHAT!? I thought they really wanted to take a warm-hearted look at the entire application. I keep reading how the personal statement and experiences are supposed to figure in quite strongly, and sometimes in a tizzy of glee, win over the admissions committee, procuring the applicant not only a seat, but also a wing of an annex dedicted in their name! Isn't the whole application important?

 

[gioia]

I'm a non-trad and am halfway through 2nd year.

I have pondered all of the aforementioned and thought, in lieu of studying for a few minutes, I would throw some tasty bits into the stew for you guys to think about:

1. Realistically, as personally as it feels, there is very little thought to it: Humans are mammals and as human mammals, they don't want to die/age and they don't want to think about it - (I'm interested in geriatrics so I observe this regularly) - so, it's visceral: nontrad=age= OLD! Not true, but limbic.

2. Other hand: Older non trads may: get tired and lose steam, may have a short 'shelf life' (yes, I know quality vs quantity), and may even more importantly: stand up for themselves ( you know, not take the bait hook, line, sinker)

3. Med schools are the last to change and are at the end of the education line. Some are afraid to drastically change the demographic. Like the military, med schools, want'em young ..... and maleable.

This is all anectdotally derived personal observation, but you guys are non-trads too: YOU'LL MAKE IT! 🙂

 

[gioia]

I'm a non-trad and am halfway through 2nd year.

I have pondered all of the aforementioned and thought, in lieu of studying for a few minutes, I would throw some tasty bits into the stew for you guys to think about:

1. Realistically, as personally as it feels, there is very little thought to it: Humans are mammals and as human mammals, they don't want to die/age and they don't want to think about it - (I'm interested in geriatrics so I observe this regularly) - so, it's visceral: nontrad=age= OLD! Not true, but limbic.

2. Other hand: Older non trads may: get tired and lose steam, may have a short 'shelf life' (yes, I know quality vs quantity), and may even more importantly: stand up for themselves ( you know, not take the bait hook, line, sinker)

3. Med schools are the last to change and are at the end of the education line. Some are afraid to drastically change the demographic. Like the military, med schools, want'em young ..... and maleable.

This is all anectdotally derived personal observation, but you guys are non-trads too: YOU'LL MAKE IT! 🙂

 

[ShyRem]

Thank you, gioia. I see that same desire for... maleability... in other professions. But it's still disheartening to be 'pigeon-holed' by age.

I hope to see you sometime on rotations.

 

[MeowMix]

I mean, for heavens sakes, anyone who can take pchem, ochem and advanced calc all in the same semester and STILL pull As and Bs has got brains enough for med school.

Your course load in med school is going to eclipse this. By a mile. And it's totally different; at most schools, it's all about memorizing a vast body of material, not conceptual learning or problem-solving or demonstrating clinical skills. At some schools, every test will be multiple-choice; forget any kind of part-marks for the solution. I have not yet seen a med school exam (other than anatomy) that was not entirely multiple choice. The faculty often do not test on central concepts or important ideas; they test on tiny details from the lecture handout. It's not like this everywhere, but it is in a lot of places.

I went in thinking that with a PhD in chemistry from a top-notch school, med school would be no sweat academically. After I failed my fourth or fifth exam, I had to radically change my attitude and my study techniques, from primarily conceptual learning to brute-force memorization. It's not just about how smart you are, it's about how well you can memorize. And how much. And how fast. Some of those students and docs with crappy clinical skills have incredible abilities to learn in this environment.

 

[ShyRem]

Never said it wouldn't be hard. I'm aware it's going to be like drinking from a fire hose (btw: tried that when I was a firefighter - knocked me on my a$$ - not pretty). But for med schools to say they're looking for people with the brains enough to handle med school and then they choose those who take the minimum course load with perhaps one difficult course a semester is ridiculous. Tell it like it is - either they're looking for people who have shown they can handle a heavy difficult course load (and certainly PhD in just about anything I think should count), or they're looking for numbers.

I realize I'm asking for the world and most likely the impossible - I'm asking for honesty from adcoms. If they're just looking for numbers, they should tell people to major in the absolute easiest thing possible and certainly nothing they're really interested in or that's remotely difficult.

Ok. rant over. I'm just frustrated right now... and I don't like smoke and mirrors very much. And it seems lots of adcoms speak in tongues. *sigh*.

 

[Dave_D]

Just so you know, Q is a she, not a he 🙂

😱 Oops, a hundred thousand pardons for that one.(I should know better)

 

[MoosePilot]

I have had a surprisingly positive application process. I mean there are some minuses to being a non-trad. I'm not used to just bending over and taking it when schools ignore me. It pisses me off. I haven't noticed any school has looked down on me for being older though.

 

[njbmd]

Hi there,
Applied back in the dark ages of 1997 when I was a huge anomaly ( a 40+ person wanting to go to medical school). Surprisingly, I was well-received and very successful in getting into medical school. I applied to one out of state school, two private schools and three state schools. All were very, very encouraging and I was accepted by all of them.

I was never asked about changing careers. The interview usually focused on my research or my extremely high energy level. At most of the interviews, my fellow interviewees thought that I was one of the professors (which was pretty funny).

Do not be discouraged by what you perceive is attitude. Schools are looking for people who can 1. navigate the curriculum successfully 2. adaptable enough to be a good fit 3. Able to communicate enough to practice medicine. Grades and MCAT show your academic achievement but the rest of the application shows that you bring something else to medicine. This is where you can take charge of the interview and show what you have. This is the main advantage of having a bit of life-experience.

njbmd 🙂

 

[.edu-MD]

.

 

[MeowMix]

But for med schools to say they're looking for people with the brains enough to handle med school and then they choose those who take the minimum course load with perhaps one difficult course a semester is ridiculous.

This is the exception. Sure, you will find students who seem to be dumb as doorknobs, with no social skills, and you can't imagine how they got admitted. But the majority of places (at least at your state school, which is also my med school) are taken up by smart students with excellent preparation, who fully deserve to be there.

The process is certainly flawed (the head of the admissions committee at this same school once described it using a fairly derogatory vernacular term). There are thousands of excellent applicants, so the system becomes much more random than it should be. There is not enough time to read everyone's application thoroughly. Deserving people get passed over. Admissions committee members vary widely in their assessment of applicants. But, the system can catch itself. One student in my class was told by an interviewer that they would be an excellent candidate during the NEXT application cycle. They got in anyway.

 

[QofQuimica]

I realize I'm asking for the world and most likely the impossible - I'm asking for honesty from adcoms. If they're just looking for numbers, they should tell people to major in the absolute easiest thing possible and certainly nothing they're really interested in or that's remotely difficult.

Ok. rant over. I'm just frustrated right now... and I don't like smoke and mirrors very much. And it seems lots of adcoms speak in tongues. *sigh*.

I agree. I appreciate it when schools flat-out say what they're looking for from applicants, even if it's as pedantic as merely high numbers. Some of the schools that get bashed so much in pre-allo for being "numbers ******" are the same ones that are particularly transparent in terms of the types of applicants they want. We can certainly debate the merits of their criteria, but whether you agree or disagree with those criteria, at least you know what the h*** it is that they want. And, since you will know up front if you don't meet their criteria, you can apply elsewhere and not waste your time or theirs.

I went in thinking that with a PhD in chemistry from a top-notch school, med school would be no sweat academically. After I failed my fourth or fifth exam, I had to radically change my attitude and my study techniques, from primarily conceptual learning to brute-force memorization. It's not just about how smart you are, it's about how well you can memorize. And how much. And how fast. Some of those students and docs with crappy clinical skills have incredible abilities to learn in this environment.

This is a bit off-topic, but I didn't know that you were a chemist, MeowMix. Very cool. 👍 What kind of chemistry?

Oops, a hundred thousand pardons for that one.(I should know better)

No problem. You're not the first person to think I'm a guy; I don't know why I give off such masculine vibes. Maybe I need to do like unfrozencaveman and write "not a dude" in my profile.

 

[ShyRem]

Q, it has to do with the perception of women in science fields. Seriously - when most people think of a chemist, they think of a male. Certainly NOT a female. Same thing with math, and DEFINITELY physics. Biology, on the other hand, seems to be perceived as a more "feminine" field.

 

[QofQuimica]

Q, it has to do with the perception of women in science fields. Seriously - when most people think of a chemist, they think of a male. Certainly NOT a female. Same thing with math, and DEFINITELY physics. Biology, on the other hand, seems to be perceived as a more "feminine" field.

That makes sense. It's like that riddle about the surgeon who turns out to be the kid's mom, not his dad. Interestingly, we get a lot of female undergrad chem majors and even first year chem grad students. But many of them drop out and never earn their PhDs. 😳

 

[Dave_D]

We discussed this issue in the pre-allo forum, and the reason why schools have to charge for secondaries is b/c the money you pay for AMCAS goes to the AAMC, not to the schools. I'd personally prefer schools not to screen based on hard cutoffs with no exceptions in terms of numbers. Schools that have hard cutoffs would never give me a secondary or interview, because I have no undergrad GPA. We've pretty much all agreed here that schools looking beyond our numbers is a GOOD thing, right???

That's true but sometimes you just get the feeling they aren't actually looking past your numbers, they're just looking for an easy $75-$100 for someone they will reject in short order.(And I really can't tell which schools might be doing that. 🙁 )

 

[Dave_D]

You are too kind. Throughout this process, I have realized through experience that some schools read my app, some did not. Interestingly, the one who has so far seemed to have read my app the most thoroughly was a DO school. That interviewer knew every tiny detail on my app right down to my middle name (ok, that one is rather interesting and unique) and courses I took 20 years ago. He was also my toughest interviewer, and the one I enjoyed the most. Very upfront. It was very refreshing. 🙂

Hmm, maybe I should have stuck with my gut and sent in a few apps to DO schools.(Since the more I hear the more I hear how they are more friendly to us old foggies.) Definitely next time if I'm a re-applicant.

 

[Dave_D]

That makes sense. It's like that riddle about the surgeon who turns out to be the kid's mom, not his dad. Interestingly, we get a lot of female undergrad chem majors and even first year chem grad students. But many of them drop out and never earn their PhDs. 😳

But I should know better because 3 out of 4 of my chem profs were women. 2 out of 4 of the lab instructors were women too and the classmate I used to talk about physics with(and gave me tips on orgo too) was a girl.

Anyway I know it's a bit early but I'm wondering how I should go about re-applying if it comes to that. I mean I don't expect my app to change all that much, maybe I'll get it in a bit earlier but why would they give me a literal second look? I know, after everything comes in give a few of them a call and see what they say.(But as I've said, MCW and Albany are definitely dumped if I reapply. I might call MCW though just for tips.)

Btw my liver biopsy went pretty well.(Ok, except for the fact one of the nurses ended up trying 4 times with the IV. First she tried the left hand which wasn't successful. Second she tried my left arm but my vein moved and she had to try a second time to get it in. Then she decided on her own I might need a second bigger one in my right arm for clotting medication which went right in but hurt more than the other 3. Of course the head nurse told her 2 seconds after it was in to pull it, he doesn't need it) The actual procedure wasn't too bad but that's because they gave me sedatives, a general anesthetic, and lidocaine as a local so I was pretty much high as a kite at that point since this stuff works great if you're system is pretty clean. I noticed the click of the equipment more than the actual biopsy. (Although it did make my shoulder sore after the medication wore off.) Oh, and to close me up after the procedure they used this really advanced technology, I think it was called a "band-aid" but I always confuse those technical terms 😀

Oh, if you go to Boston Medical Center for a procedure be sure to show the garage attendant your wrist band, gives you a major discount on parking.(And no, I didn't drive since the people there told me not to drive. My brother did and it did save him money.)

 

[ShyRem]

Good luck with your results, Dave. We're all hoping for the best. 🙂

 

[QofQuimica]

Good luck with your results, Dave. We're all hoping for the best. 🙂

Agree.

Dave, if you do have to re-apply (and I wouldn't worry about this now, but just in case), talk to some of the schools that rejected or waitlisted you first. Ask for an appointment with the admissions director, and have this person give you some feedback on how you can improve your app. I did this last year before applying, and it helped me more than I can ever express. I try to talk everyone I know (and even a bunch of you SDNers that I don't know!) into doing this. I honestly can tell you that these meetings played a huge role in my success as an applicant.

 

[sanford_w/o_son]

Agree.

Dave, if you do have to re-apply (and I wouldn't worry about this now, but just in case), talk to some of the schools that rejected or waitlisted you first. Ask for an appointment with the admissions director, and have this person give you some feedback on how you can improve your app. I did this last year before applying, and it helped me more than I can ever express. I try to talk everyone I know (and even a bunch of you SDNers that I don't know!) into doing this. I honestly can tell you that these meetings played a huge role in my success as an applicant.

do you think it just helped you improve the application itself, or did it help you out as a way to "network" with adcoms and show your interest in person? just curious.

 

[QofQuimica]

do you think it just helped you improve the application itself, or did it help you out as a way to "network" with adcoms and show your interest in person? just curious.

Both. They made specific suggestions about what I could do to improve my application, who to get LORs from, etc. Also, I did keep in touch with the admissions directors at these schools afterward, including letting them know when I submitted my app so that they'd keep an eye out for it.

 

[Dave_D]

Good luck with your results, Dave. We're all hoping for the best.

Agree.

Dave, if you do have to re-apply (and I wouldn't worry about this now, but just in case), talk to some of the schools that rejected or waitlisted you first. Ask for an appointment with the admissions director, and have this person give you some feedback on how you can improve your app. I did this last year before applying, and it helped me more than I can ever express. I try to talk everyone I know (and even a bunch of you SDNers that I don't know!) into doing this. I honestly can tell you that these meetings played a huge role in my success as an applicant.

Thanks for the good wishes both of you. After months of this I'd like to get to the bottom of this.(Since whatever this is does occasionally make me nauseated and has made me far more tired lately.) From what I've been told I should get the results middle of next week.(I'm supposed to hear from the liver specialist and nurse practictioner about an appointment to talk of this any day now.) All I've heard so far is that if I had a choice between the hemachromatosis and Wilson's disease that Wilson's is better since one is treated by blood letting and the other by a pill. (What an odd way to learn medical info about the liver though.)

Q, thanks for the advice. Maybe it's a little early but I don't know. I've been complete at 10 schools since mid October and heard nothing. I figure the best thing is to work up a back up plan now since I would have expected at least one interview by now. You're right though, feedback and networking for the next round can only help me.(And let me know where I'd be wasting my time.) I was thinking of at least e-mailing UNECOM about what they're looking for.(Since they say they want at least 2.7 on electives which I don't have since the vast majority of my electives occured when I was a young'in back in the early 90's. I'm a different cat now though, I absolutely destroy their MCAT average of 25 😀 )

 

[ShyRem]

Try calling UNECOM. I really liked my interview there - it totally changed my mind about the school and shot it towards the top. Everyone there is really (REALLY) nice. And if you email, I actually got email replies literally within minutes from Lisa Lane on the weekend. I have to say my interviewer must've read every single word in my file though - good tough straight forward interview. No-nonsense, tough questions. I liked it. And, BTW i had about 60 credits of HORRIBLE grades from 20 years ago (like a 1.7 GPA horrible). My recent stuff is good work tho, and tough courses. They liked it.

 

[Dave_D]

Try calling UNECOM. I really liked my interview there - it totally changed my mind about the school and shot it towards the top. Everyone there is really (REALLY) nice. And if you email, I actually got email replies literally within minutes from Lisa Lane on the weekend. I have to say my interviewer must've read every single word in my file though - good tough straight forward interview. No-nonsense, tough questions. I liked it. And, BTW i had about 60 credits of HORRIBLE grades from 20 years ago (like a 1.7 GPA horrible). My recent stuff is good work tho, and tough courses. They liked it.

I'll drop them an e-mail and find out. I guess one problem I have is that I haven't taken(and hadn't planned on taking) biochem.(And by the time I was applying for allopathic schools it was a little late to take it so I didn't bother applying. Not sure how serious they were about that.)

 

[jbone]

Try calling UNECOM. I really liked my interview there - it totally changed my mind about the school and shot it towards the top. Everyone there is really (REALLY) nice. And if you email, I actually got email replies literally within minutes from Lisa Lane on the weekend. I have to say my interviewer must've read every single word in my file though - good tough straight forward interview. No-nonsense, tough questions. I liked it. And, BTW i had about 60 credits of HORRIBLE grades from 20 years ago (like a 1.7 GPA horrible). My recent stuff is good work tho, and tough courses. They liked it.

It's all about VCU baby!! I'm totally non-trad and they really appreciated what I brought to the table from my experiences. 👍

 

[ShyRem]

I'll drop them an e-mail and find out. I guess one problem I have is that I haven't taken(and hadn't planned on taking) biochem.(And by the time I was applying for allopathic schools it was a little late to take it so I didn't bother applying. Not sure how serious they were about that.)

I think they have an online distance learning course you can take. Call 'em.

 

[ShyRem]

It's all about VCU baby!! I'm totally non-trad and they really appreciated what I brought to the table from my experiences. 👍

I also loved VCU... still hoping for an acceptance there. And you get to do your rotations right there at VCU for years 3 and 4. With a family, that's a really nice plus.

 

[cfdavid]

you know, this whole attitude towards non-trads that some schools have is so irrational. we nontrads have so much more to lose if the med school thing doesn't work out for us, so why would schools assume that our motivations are somehow less strong than the motivation of a 21 year old? also, arguably, we've seen more of the world and come to know ourselves better, so we enter medicine with more self-awareness, which is always a good thing.

.

Totally. I finally sold my home, quit my career-job (work part time now, finally), and moved in with my MOM last month.......... lol
I'm a 31 year old single guy!!!! NOT COOL 👎

Being 21 or 22, and reapplying for another year may not really be that huge a deal, comparatively. But for the MANY of us that have given up high paying jobs etc. and have made major life changes, to just take another year off so we can reapply (thereby showing our REAL enthusiasm/commitment) isn't really all that palatable....

Whatever. Good luck to all my fellow non-trads.

 

[QofQuimica]

Totally. I finally sold my home, quit my career-job (work part time now, finally), and moved in with my MOM last month.......... lol
I'm a 31 year old single guy!!!! NOT COOL 👎

Wow, that's tough. I stayed with my parents for a few months after finishing my MS, and it was tough on all of us. Hope that things work out for you, cfdavid.

 

[Dave_D]

I think they have an online distance learning course you can take. Call 'em.

What do you know, they do have one.(But I guess no lab huh?) Quick question for you Shy or anyone else that knows. What is biochem actually like? I mean I've checked UMass' web site since I was expecting it to sound like yet another chem class.(You know, reactions and this and that.) It sounds closer to cell bio than anything else.

 

[QofQuimica]

What do you know, they do have one.(But I guess no lab huh?) Quick question for you Shy or anyone else that knows. What is biochem actually like? I mean I've checked UMass' web site since I was expecting it to sound like yet another chem class.(You know, reactions and this and that.) It sounds closer to cell bio than anything else.

It's a little of both. A good organic background will save you a lot of memorization in biochem, b/c you can work a lot of the structures and mechanisms out chemically rather than having to brute-force memorize them. But the class focuses on chemistry in cells, specifically for nucleic acids, lipids, carbohydrates (including glucose and cellular respiration), and proteins/amino acids. (I think that being asked to learn the catabolic and anabolic pathways for all of the amino acids was one of the most painful parts of biochem.) It's actually a pretty interesting class though, because it teaches you how cells work on a chemical level. Cells do a lot of the same organic reactions that we do in the lab, but they do them much more efficiently and easily using enzymes than we can. 😛

 

[Dave_D]

It's a little of both. A good organic background will save you a lot of memorization in biochem, b/c you can work a lot of the structures and mechanisms out chemically rather than having to brute-force memorize them. But the class focuses on chemistry in cells, specifically for nucleic acids, lipids, carbohydrates (including glucose and cellular respiration), and proteins/amino acids. (I think that being asked to learn the catabolic and anabolic pathways for all of the amino acids was one of the most painful parts of biochem.) It's actually a pretty interesting class though, because it teaches you how cells work on a chemical level. Cells do a lot of the same organic reactions that we do in the lab, but they do them much more efficiently and easily using enzymes than we can. 😛

Hmm, I did fairly well at organic(ok, I got an A- and an A 🙂 ) but the part I enjoyed most was doing mechanisms and structures. (I did very well with the theory behind everything, memorization of those rxns took a little longer.) So it sounds like the stuff I liked about that class would be the things to help me in biochem. It does sound interesting especially since our cell bio class delved very superficially into chemistry. (You only needed first semester gen chem to take it although the second semester of gen chem did help with alot of the concepts.) Quick question, does biochem make any use of algebra/calc.(Since I enjoy that. I know, I must be nuts to like that 😀 )

 

[QofQuimica]

Hmm, I did fairly well at organic(ok, I got an A- and an A 🙂 ) but the part I enjoyed most was doing mechanisms and structures. (I did very well with the theory behind everything, memorization of those rxns took a little longer.) So it sounds like the stuff I liked about that class would be the things to help me in biochem. It does sound interesting especially since our cell bio class delved very superficially into chemistry. (You only needed first semester gen chem to take it although the second semester of gen chem did help with alot of the concepts.) Quick question, does biochem make any use of algebra/calc.(Since I enjoy that. I know, I must be nuts to like that 😀 )

You'll probably enjoy biochem. 🙂 I doubt you will use any calc in your biochem class, but you may use some algebra, and you will definitely need to use some basic arithmetic. 😉

 

[Dave_D]

You'll probably enjoy biochem. 🙂 I doubt you will use any calc in your biochem class, but you may use some algebra, and you will definitely need to use some basic arithmetic. 😉

Definitely sounds like a cool class. Given I'll probably have some time I probably should take it since so many med schools are requiring it. (Then again given all the post-bacc stuff I've done maybe I should just get a second bachelors in chem or bio or something. Just not too many electives, I'm a big science nerd 😀 )

 

[medhacker]

Is U of Arizona one of these wall of shame schools?
I am curious for I think I had a close encounter of the third type with them 😕

 

[Orth2006]

Well, I had once before mentioned some names and was told i should keep my mouth shut lest i get sued for defamation. Apparently, none of them publish "if your over 25, go somewhere else" as thats ageism.

In anycase, i feel safe saying that they were all MD schools. Oh, and i live in arizona. 😉

Hey I'm out in Arizona too but I have never been asked about my age in the interviews I went to. And certainly it didnt come up at the state school (not mentioning any names 🙄 ). By the way Im 30 (31 by matriculation). Its weird that you were treated that way.

 

[eccles1214]

3) Schools have a vested interest in maintaining high entrance stats to maintain reputation and prestige (which can be very important for grant money etc).

I have to echo this last point, adding that stats is more than just GPA and MCAT, it also refers to demographics. Some med schools prefer to maintain a student body along traditional lines, i.e. fresh-out-of-college students, and accepting an older non-trad alters their stats. At least this is what one admissions advisor told me when I inquired about my chances. Sheesh.

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

frustrating but true.

 

[QofQuimica]

I think that all schools will take at least one or two nontrads if you fit in with their mission. Even very high-number schools will take non-trads if the non-trads also have high numbers. There is a difference between a school being antagonistic or hostile toward non-trads versus the school just not having a lot of non-trads in their classes. I am 30, and I have not felt unwelcome as a non-trad at any of the schools that I have visited, including the schools with very young classes. Even the one school that was maybe a little less friendly toward non-trads was not actually hostile; they just were asking me questions like how I would feel about learning from and working with people who were ten years younger than I am. I may well be rejected there, but I don't expect that my age would enter into it, even though they have no current MSIs in their 30s.

 

[1Path]

So i decided i would not apply to any MD schools for that reason. All the ones i have talked to (about 15) expressed the same interest in numbers and dismissed any experience.

I know from experience that Hopkins STRENUOUSLY favors traditional applicants and has NEVER accpeted ANYONE over age 35 to their MD program. 😡

 

[jbrice1639]

i feel like i was heavily questioned on the whole "why medicine? why now?" thing, but in the end, my interviewers all seemed satisfied and after the questioning and i think it strengthened my interviews. i think they just feel they need to be careful in not taking people who are simply bored with their jobs...i don't really think there's anything wrong with them grilling us a little more heavily on motivation though.