Frustration with General Dentistry!

[lena87]

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Thanks in advance for any advice I can get from you guys!

I'm having many thoughts about persuing a specialty after I've been working for more than 4 years now as a General Dentist and the jobs I got was very
frustratin and salary wise too it didn't improve. I'm in my late thirties and I feel it's late to go back to school but IDK if I have other options.
I didn't think about specialty so i focused on getting into residency when I was in school, so My GPA is 3.1.
I want to know if anyone had the same experience and with my age and gpa is it still possible to get into specialty? I was thinking Endo or Perio. thought i love O.s. but my gpa too low I think. please any advise would help.

 

[321931]

Thanks in advance for any advice I can get from you guys!

I'm having many thoughts about persuing a specialty after I've been working for more than 4 years now as a General Dentist and the jobs I got was very
frustratin and salary wise too it didn't improve. I'm in my late thirties and I feel it's late to go back to school but IDK if I have other options.
I didn't think about specialty so i focused on getting into residency when I was in school, so My GPA is 3.1.
I want to know if anyone had the same experience and with my age and gpa is it still possible to get into specialty? I was thinking Endo or Perio. thought i love O.s. but my gpa too low I think. please any advise would help.

It sounds like you a running away from your problems and not confronting them. Running away into a specialty will solve nothing. Your grades are to poor for it to. If you want to hold all the cards, call the shots, and possibly enjoy the job- look into ownership.

I was unhappy to with general dentistry then bought a practice 2 years ago. I was in the midst of thinking of going back to school for computer science and whatnot. I'm actually in love with dentistry today and love my job.

The only real way to building wealth, controlling your own schedule, and destiny in dentistry is through ownership route. The worst day in ownership, still beats the best days of associating. Go lookup a dental cpa in your area, meet with them and have them explain the P/L of ownership, their typical client proforma, and you will understand why and how dentist owners can work 4 days a week, take off 3-5 weeks in a year and pay the bills, and or be absentee owners and have associates paying for their lifestyles, and or open multiple practices and have associates doing all the busy work in em.

 

[FutureDent020]

I agree with what said above. I don’t think your answer is in a specialty, but rather more autonomy as a GP (based on what you have said at least).

 

[Saddleshoes]

You are now at the point in your career where you realize that dentistry is just a job and not a "position".

Dentistry is no different that any other career, it's work. Work is frustrating and hard and dull. That is what the money is for! (Quoting Don Draper in Mad Men.)

At this point in your career you can take one of three approaches...
1. Quit and try something else.
2. Get into ownership.
3. Accept the fact that it is a JOB and carry on.

 

[321931]

You are now at the point in your career where you realize that dentistry is just a job and not a "position".

Dentistry is no different that any other career, it's work. Work is frustrating and hard and dull. That is what the money is for! (Quoting Don Draper in Mad Men.)

At this point in your career you can take one of three approaches...
1. Quit and try something else.
2. Get into ownership.
3. Accept the fact that it is a JOB and carry on.

Yup! What I will add is that dentistry is a job and that it allows you to pursue other passions.

What I do in my free time? Biking, swimming, running, (triathalons), travel (you haven’t lived until you bicycle Europe) foreign language class on thursdays, magic the gathering Friday nights, lots of video game conventions.

What dentistry offers is basically a path towards living towards your hobbies. Put yourself on a path towards financial freedom and treat the job as a job. And when you have your three day weekends live it up.

You have one of the best jobs in the world. Good luck doing that with medicine 60 hour on call weeks, pharmacy working weekends, and whatever financial accounting comp sci job there is. There’s not many jobs that beat the lifestyle of a dentist but you have to work and plan for it.

 

[Cold Front]

A former associate of mine was a general dentist for 6 years out of school. He got married and had a baby during that time, and found himself in a situation where his sub-$200k Income was “not enough” to support his stay home wife and baby. So he decided to specialize in Endo, just purely to increase his income and reduce his work schedule to 4 days a week. Some would argue this would be a bad choice to specialize for the money, but often almost all dentists including general dentists would not be happy if they were making “less money”. General dentistry can be used to unlock other opportunities - which fortunately was the case for me. I personally don’t love general dentistry more than the next dentist, but the economics of dentistry can lead to financial security every dentist is looking for if you practice in the right community and aggressively be patient and have a long term plan to make it work.

 

[Steins;Gate]

A former associate of mine was a general dentist for 6 years out of school. He got married and had a baby during that time, and found himself in a situation where his sub-$200k Income was “not enough” to support his stay home wife and baby. So he decided to specialize in Endo, just purely to increase his income and reduce his work schedule to 4 days a week. Some would argue this would be a bad choice to specialize for the money, but often almost all dentists including general dentists would not be happy if they were making “less money”. General dentistry can be used to unlock other opportunities - which fortunately was the case for me. I personally don’t love general dentistry more than the next dentist, but the economics of dentistry can lead to financial security every dentist is looking for if you practice in the right community and aggressively be patient and have a long term plan to make it work.

Is the associate now working less and making more?

 

[Cold Front]

Is the associate now working less and making more?

He is starting a 2 yr Endo residency next week. He was making $750-800 a day as an associate/general dentist 4 days a week. He “plans/hopes” to make more as an Endodontist and still work 4 days a week. Can he? Probably! But going back to school has its own set backs, both in time and big debt. When you factor in both, it will adjust the Endo income down to a GP practice owner at best. An average GP owner makes $250-300k on the low end, and $1M+ at the high end. Endodontists make $300k first few years, and $600-700k with tons of experience and with established practice ownership or partnership. There has been general dentists who sold their practice after few years and went back to school for Endo, and there are general dentists who took Endo CE courses and boosted their productions $200k+. The difference between the 2 is more time + debt, and delayed financial independence by going back to school. I would only do residency if I loved Endo so much. But my former associate is doing it to make more income.

 

[desertrat12]

He is starting a 2 yr Endo residency next week. He was making $750-800 a day as an associate/general dentist 4 days a week. He “plans/hopes” to make more as an Endodontist and still work 4 days a week. Can he? Probably! But going back to school has its own set backs, both in time and big debt. When you factor in both, it will adjust the Endo income down to a GP practice owner at best. An average GP owner makes $250-300k on the low end, and $1M+ at the high end. Endodontists make $300k first few years, and $600-700k with tons of experience and with established practice ownership or partnership. There has been general dentists who sold their practice after few years and went back to school for Endo, and there are general dentists who took Endo CE courses and boosted their productions $200k+. The difference between the 2 is more time + debt, and delayed financial independence by going back to school. I would only do residency if I loved Endo so much. But my former associate is doing it to make more income.

Not to derail the thread...but this brings up an interesting question, is there a specialty that you would say is financial worth it? Given the opportunity cost, etc, is there any field that is still worth it beyond just really liking a particular area?

 

[siba]

I think ortho/pedo should be on the list of high financial worth IF you truly enjoy working with kids and teenagers.

And I'm in a similar boat of wanting to go back to specialize in Pedo vs. opening a GP practice focuses on kids

 

[321931]

I think ortho/pedo should be on the list of high financial worth IF you truly enjoy working with kids and teenagers.

And I'm in a similar boat of wanting to go back to specialize in Pedo vs. opening a GP practice focuses on kids

Nope to ortho. The field of ortho has changed alot from the past days. Ortho used to be the specialty that everyone was envious about.

I would say pedo/endo/omfs are the big money makers today.

 

[mmc12]

I know of a periodontist who practiced for 10 years and went back to school for ortho residency. I've also know a few pediatric dentists who went back for ortho. However, I have never heard of an orthodontist who decided to go back to school and specialize in something else... Also, I've never seen an orthodontist give up his specialty and go back to general practice. Has anyone?

 

[2TH MVR]

Plenty of work for an orthodontist. Aligners can only treat a small population of patients .... and not very well I might add. Rural areas still rule. Saturated areas .... better plan on diversifying your employment options. Moving teeth is much harder than most realize.
I work Corp and I'm constantly being asked to work more days. Yes ... The Ortho gravy train is not what it used to be, but I wouldn't trade my profession for anything else in dental.

 

[Svart Aske]

people dont go into ortho for the money. they get into it for the lifestyle

Lifestyle and money go hand in hand.

 

[Svart Aske]

Lifestyle as in low stress job stemming from happy and young patient base and virtually no physical strain/risk

If ortho paid the same as general dentistry it would not be anywhere near the competitive specialty that it is.

 

[TanMan]

Thanks in advance for any advice I can get from you guys!

I'm having many thoughts about persuing a specialty after I've been working for more than 4 years now as a General Dentist and the jobs I got was very
frustratin and salary wise too it didn't improve. I'm in my late thirties and I feel it's late to go back to school but IDK if I have other options.
I didn't think about specialty so i focused on getting into residency when I was in school, so My GPA is 3.1.
I want to know if anyone had the same experience and with my age and gpa is it still possible to get into specialty? I was thinking Endo or Perio. thought i love O.s. but my gpa too low I think. please any advise would help.

I think you need to identify why you're not making more money. Only reason I'd recommend going into a specialty is if you have no desire to be an owner and you never got faster/remained stagnant. There are other reasons why you might not be making more money that's not necessarily your fault (directly). One reason is that you're working in a stagnant office, declining patient/procedure pool, your boss is ripping you off in compensation, working in a terrible area, and other external factors. If that's the case, then you need to find a place where you can make more money. If it's because you are slow and have remained slow, then you either have to speed up or go to a specialty.

If you are in your late 30's, going into a specialty is going to push you into 40's. You may not have enough time to recoup the time lost for your investment as a specialist. Up to what age are you planning to work? For endo, I know they value experience more than GPA. I don't know anything about perio, but I heard OS wants people straight out of dschool. If you're going to take a 6 yr OS route, you will be in your mid 40's before you start practicing. If your health and everything starts declining at 50, then you really don't have much time to make your money back or enjoy the rest of your life before the decline starts.

Just some things to consider. I assume my quality of life will drop at 50 (or die at 50), your circumstances may differ.

 

[mmc12]

If ortho paid the same as general dentistry it would not be anywhere near the competitive specialty that it is.

I would still much rather be an ortho even if the salary was the same as a GP

 

[lena87]

I think you need to identify why you're not making more money. Only reason I'd recommend going into a specialty is if you have no desire to be an owner and you never got faster/remained stagnant. There are other reasons why you might not be making more money that's not necessarily your fault (directly). One reason is that you're working in a stagnant office, declining patient/procedure pool, your boss is ripping you off in compensation, working in a terrible area, and other external factors. If that's the case, then you need to find a place where you can make more money. If it's because you are slow and have remained slow, then you either have to speed up or go to a specialty.

If you are in your late 30's, going into a specialty is going to push you into 40's. You may not have enough time to recoup the time lost for your investment as a specialist. Up to what age are you planning to work? For endo, I know they value experience more than GPA. I don't know anything about perio, but I heard OS wants people straight out of dschool. If you're going to take a 6 yr OS route, you will be in your mid 40's before you start practicing. If your health and everything starts declining at 50, then you really don't have much time to make your money back or enjoy the rest of your life before the decline starts.

Just some things to consider. I assume my quality of life will drop at 50 (or die at 50), your circumstances may differ.

I'm 37 now but I'm seeing more of my friends going back to do Endo even older than me.
I work in detroit so I'm trying either to move out to another state or try other options.

 

[321931]

You guys do know the average cost to be an orthodontist right? Combine that with a changing ortho field. It isn’t like the good old days anymore.

Mike Meru comes to mind. Google him.

 

[LFA20]

I would still much rather be an ortho even if the salary was the same as a GP

You would rather have a orthodontist debt and savings than a gp’s?

 

[TanMan]

I'm 37 now but I'm seeing more of my friends going back to do Endo even older than me.
I work in detroit so I'm trying either to move out to another state or try other options.

Have you consulted with your friends who have returned to endo? Depending on how close you are to your friends, you could also see if they are in a similar financial position and whether their specialty training is worth the extra time spent in residency. Remember, you're giving up 1-2% of your life to pursue a residency (assuming you live between 50-100 years).

 

[yappy]

He is starting a 2 yr Endo residency next week. He was making $750-800 a day as an associate/general dentist 4 days a week. He “plans/hopes” to make more as an Endodontist and still work 4 days a week. Can he? Probably! But going back to school has its own set backs, both in time and big debt. When you factor in both, it will adjust the Endo income down to a GP practice owner at best. An average GP owner makes $250-300k on the low end, and $1M+ at the high end. Endodontists make $300k first few years, and $600-700k with tons of experience and with established practice ownership or partnership. There has been general dentists who sold their practice after few years and went back to school for Endo, and there are general dentists who took Endo CE courses and boosted their productions $200k+. The difference between the 2 is more time + debt, and delayed financial independence by going back to school. I would only do residency if I loved Endo so much. But my former associate is doing it to make more income.

@Cold Front @Rainee

I'm very interested to hear about the career progression of a dentist who decides to plunge into ownership. Specifically, this 250-300k low end estimate for income. Is this typical/average for FTE gp owners? Lastly, any good resources (blogs, books, etc.) that you used to become a successful owner. Thanks.

 

[BluntForceTrauma]

Yup! What I will add is that dentistry is a job and that it allows you to pursue other passions.

What I do in my free time? Biking, swimming, running, (triathalons), travel (you haven’t lived until you bicycle Europe) foreign language class on thursdays, magic the gathering Friday nights, lots of video game conventions.

What dentistry offers is basically a path towards living towards your hobbies. Put yourself on a path towards financial freedom and treat the job as a job. And when you have your three day weekends live it up.

You have one of the best jobs in the world. Good luck doing that with medicine 60 hour on call weeks, pharmacy working weekends, and whatever financial accounting comp sci job there is. There’s not many jobs that beat the lifestyle of a dentist but you have to work and plan for it.

Can I get in on that Magic action? I have a killer poison deck, and if not that, Eldrazi out the wazzu

 

[HarvardStudent]

@Cold Front @Rainee

I'm very interested to hear about the career progression of a dentist who decides to plunge into ownership. Specifically, this 250-300k low end estimate for income. Is this typical/average for FTE gp owners? Lastly, any good resources (blogs, books, etc.) that you used to become a successful owner. Thanks.

Listen to the Shared Practices Podcast from the beginning! It's about the path to ownership from a new grad perspective. It has a season format with season 1 focusing on associateships and ownership, season two on acquiring a practice, and season three on scratch starts.

 

[lena87]

Have you consulted with your friends who have returned to endo? Depending on how close you are to your friends, you could also see if they are in a similar financial position and whether their specialty training is worth the extra time spent in residency. Remember, you're giving up 1-2% of your life to pursue a residency (assuming you live between 50-100 years).

I asked some of them and all their responses were that it’s less headache and more money, besides they said when they don’t want to work a lot in the future they can go back to teach.
I hear sometimes general Dentists make more but maybe the location and the state play a role in this!

 

[yappy]

I asked some of them and all their responses were that it’s less headache and more money, besides they said when they don’t want to work a lot in the future they can go back to teach.
I hear sometimes general Dentists make more but maybe the location and the state play a role in this!

What has been your income as an associate and how many days/ WK and vacation have you taken. Are you corp or private.

 

[Cold Front]

@Cold Front @Rainee

I'm very interested to hear about the career progression of a dentist who decides to plunge into ownership. Specifically, this 250-300k low end estimate for income. Is this typical/average for FTE gp owners? Lastly, any good resources (blogs, books, etc.) that you used to become a successful owner. Thanks.

The career progression of a GP owner is driven by how ambitious/hard work the GP is + their risk level/how gutsy he/she is + the location. If you have those 3 aligned together in the right direction, I don’t see why a General Dentist can’t take home $800k+ a year. I don’t mean to sound unrealistic, but we all know ambition/hard work is a key to the top of anything including income, and risk understanding and taking highest risk means doing something most dentists won’t which comes with higher income and rewards if done right, plus being at the right place for ownership means less competition and more demand and more income. To me - that’s the trifecta!

 

[Cold Front]

Listen to the Shared Practices Podcast from the beginning! It's about the path to ownership from a new grad perspective. It has a season format with season 1 focusing on associateships and ownership, season two on acquiring a practice, and season three on scratch starts.

The best resource in learning the business of dentistry, specially in general dentistry has been reading anything and everything from publications to discussion forums. The spectrum of knowledge is not confined to a certain resource boxes - but kind of Easter eggs all over the place; from talking to local general dentists, CE courses, that random cruise you took with your wife and ran into another dentist who talks about his personal experience, and ofcourse the blogs, Facebook groups and podcasts. Practice ownership path for me started while I was a 3rd year dental student, and I am still fascinated to this date (after 9 years in the field) about how much I don’t know and still yet to learn. Some of the best information came from talking to general dentists on this website, and I’m still learning from senior dentist members - almost 15 years since I joined these forums.

 

[TanMan]

I asked some of them and all their responses were that it’s less headache and more money, besides they said when they don’t want to work a lot in the future they can go back to teach.
I hear sometimes general Dentists make more but maybe the location and the state play a role in this!

I'll agree with you that location plays a big role. I think it's important to identify your financial goals, clinical speed/profitability, and see which path lines up with your goal. If you plan to work into your 60's, then you have sufficient time to make that up and you will see less patients and make more per patient v. a GP. If you plan to retire in your 40's, you may not have enough time to compensate for the 2 year training. Also, you have to ask yourself if you think you can go back to school. I think it's hard to go back to school and get back into a school setting after many years of private practice. Also, does teaching make any money outside of the lecture circuit or doing "research" for the manufacturers to testify that their product is superior to everyone else's? If you have a passion to teach students, then it's a good retirement gig as long as the bureaucracies and politics of dental school don't get to you. If you're doing it because you have nowhere else to go, then I don't think it's a good idea to rely on teaching as your last resort.

 

[lena87]

What has been your income as an associate and how many days/ WK and vacation have you taken. Are you corp or private.

I work with corp 5 days and barely made 110K last year, lots of mediaid here and not much ffs and very low ppo.

 

[yappy]

I work with corp 5 days and barely made 110K last year, lots of mediaid here and not much ffs and very low ppo.

If you want to stay GP I would reach out to a recruiter at some of these large corp offices. My reasoning is you're putting in the work, you're not an owner, and you're not being paid well. Myself, and all of my classmates I keep in touch with, make much more than that on a five day a week schedule. I cannot help you with ownership, as i'm not an owner. However, unless you're being groomed for ownership at your current practice I would look elsewhere. Maybe looking into a new city is the way to go if there are not more opportunities where you live. At some of these large practices they will pay for CE and teach you systems that can boost your production.

Remember: You can be underpaid/under-perform as a specialist too!

 

[2TH MVR]

I work with corp 5 days and barely made 110K last year, lots of mediaid here and not much ffs and very low ppo.

As others have posted. You have the experience and apparently the time (5 days per week working). Two options if you still like general dentistry and want to stay at your current location. Buy a small private practice and work PT at the Corp. Owning your own private practice will re-energize you. Yes ... it will be alot of work, but all your work will benefit YOU .... not the Corp. I work Corp after years of private practice. There is no upside. No real pride. It's just a job. It suits my current situation, but no way I would have made Corp my entire future. No way.

The other option is find another location ..... best would be rural. Buy a cash positive dental practice.

As for specializing. As others have posted. If that is what you REALLY want to do since you LOVE Endo or Perio .... then fine. Pursue it. As for making more money. Yes .... a specialist on average will make more money both in private and Corp. But do the math. Is it work it? Time and lost income. Don't specialize for the money. Money isn't everything. Practicing what you love and having time for your family should be priorities.

 

[TanMan]

I work with corp 5 days and barely made 110K last year, lots of mediaid here and not much ffs and very low ppo.

That is not good at all, especially if you've been practicing for 5 years. Your income level should be in the 200-350k range as an associate with that much experience. There's a few things wrong that I see here. Either your state's medicaid program is terrible at reimbursements, you have low volume of patients, unfair/low compensation, or you may be too slow to keep up with the demand.

I would really take a good look at your current situation and see why you have not received increased compensation over your 5 years. If the problem is the state, then you need to move. If the problem is volume, you need a higher volume of patients. If the problem is unfair/low compensation, find a better job. If you are too slow, then you need to speed up or specialize.

 

[AONLINE]

@lena87, I read through your post history and found that you were in the international dentist program. Is your immigration status good to go now? Lots of foreign trained dentists at my school are still on student visas and most of them don't want to/can't pursue post-graduate training because of that reason.

 

[lena87]

@lena87, I read through your post history and found that you were in the international dentist program. Is your immigration status good to go now? Lots of foreign trained dentists at my school are still on student visas and most of them don't want to/can't pursue post-graduate training because of that reason.

I'm not on visa. I just feel It's the location where I'm now is saturated and not very good paying for Dentists
now I should look for a different state maybe.

 

[321931]

I'm not on visa. I just feel It's the location where I'm now is saturated and not very good paying for Dentists
now I should look for a different state maybe.

Move states, or buy a practice. 110 is the bottom of the bottom for FT dentists. No offense. Go sit down with a dental CPA and learn how ownership can benefit you.

 

[lena87]

Move states, or buy a practice. 110 is the bottom of the bottom for FT dentists. No offense. Go sit down with a dental CPA and learn how ownership can benefit you.

any recommendation for a good state that have a good opportunities?

 

[Cold Front]

any recommendation for a good state that have a good opportunities?

Every state has pockets of good opportunity zones if you go outside big cities.

 

[umdnj101]

I work with corp 5 days and barely made 110K last year, lots of mediaid here and not much ffs and very low ppo.

Why would you stay at this job for so long when the daily average for general dentists no matter what state you're in is $600? If you're at medicaid office you should negotiate a high flat rate $700+. I would take some time learning how to diagnose and treatment plan to bring up out of pocket expenses or buy/open an office yourself. IMHO Money is definitely a motivating factor to specialize. On the low end of any specialty you'll be at the high end of any GP associate. Only a GP owner can earn more than any specialist out there. The fact that the specialists fee schedule is higher than a GPs means you'll also work less. Think about it as an endodontist you will primarily doing molar RCT at $900-1500 a tooth. Most offices pay 45-50%. You can do the math ....there, being an endodontist isn't a bad choice...