fudging URM status, how is this controlled for?!

[epsilonprodigy]

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I got into a rather disturbing conversation with a couple of co-workers over the weekend. Both are residents. I mentioned that I was re-taking the MCAT. One made a rather awkward joke about how I might want to consider "changing my name to ______" i.e., pretending to be a URM in order to avoid having to re-take. Needless to say, I was a little apalled but tried to laugh it off. According to him, a surprising amount of applicants actually attempt this, and in his opinion, it's very difficult for adcoms to corner any of the liars because of the sensitive nature of the issue and difficulty actually proving anything without violating their privacy.

WTF! Certainly there's a way that adcoms are able to control for this kind of crap?! Was just wondering if anyone can pinpoint any screening procedures that are in place.

 

[EEFreak]

I can see it happening, but not everybody will take advantage of it. I'm technically a Native American; I even get a slice of casino the casino profit. I think it's absurd because I'm only 1/32nd Cherokee (the most diluted that is still considered Cherokee) and am applying as a Caucasian.

I think if you list yourself as Jamal and say you are an URM, when you show up to the interview, if you have really pale skin you'll have some explaining to do.

 

[epsilonprodigy]

LOL LOL I can just see that. IMO, it would serve the theoretical douchebag right. You know what's funny though, I work with a mainly African-American and Hispanic community, and after growing up with the notion that "all" members of these groups look a certain way, I'm sometimes surprised by the number of blue-eyed blonde members of minority groups that face all the same barriers as their counterparts with more melanin 😉 Often, this results in me blathering on in English for a minute or two before I realize *doh* this person doesn't have the foggiest idea what I'm talking about, I assumed they were white Americans when they are actually Spanish-speaking immigrants, and they probably assumed that I was Hispanic and should have defaulted to speaking Spanish to them anyway! (Usually if someone has a Hispanic sounding name or I think they are Hispanic, I ask up-front if they prefer English or Spanish. I used to worry that I was insulting them, but now I figure hey, this is an ER, you're sick and we need to understand each other, so let's cut to the chase.)

Though there's not a URM bone in my body, I can rock a good suntan. I would NEVER do this, but if I were to say that I was multi-racial, no one would think a thing of it. So clearly, looks aren't all of it. For Native Americans, I believe there is some sort of documented tribal affiliation record that could be partially useful in weeding out the sketchy ones. But what about those who claim to be Hispanic and have a good command of Spanish, or those who could easily squeak by saying they are 1/4 African American, etc...? There HAS to be a way to get to the root of this, it's an awful thought but I'm pretty sure it would be rampant if there weren't.

 

[NickNaylor]

I'm not sure how you're going to fake being a URM if you aren't a URM already. Pretty much all ethnicities with the exception of whites and Asians are considered URM. Neither can pass off as another ethnicity.

 

[epsilonprodigy]

In general, that's very true, but there are exceptions. I would wager that I am one, even though I've never put it to the test and don't plan to.

I suppose it isn't worth worrying about, obviously we all have to just do our best and not waste time and energy plotting how to outwit the douchebags.

Congrats on U. Chicago BTW, Cole/NickNaylor/Lil Wayne, or whatever it is you're calling yourself these days 😉 Well-deserved.

 

[EEFreak]

For Native Americans, I believe there is some sort of documented tribal affiliation record that could be partially useful in weeding out the sketchy ones.

We have CBID cards that can be used to prove affiliation. It's not perfect because of the low cut off and how easily they are illegally obtained. Once you have one, though, a school can't say you are faking it.

I honestly feel people like myself who have 1/32nd (or even 1/16ths) and grew up outside of a reservation should not be considered URM. I also think some tribes have lower cut offs than we do (smaller fraction, higher percentage NA).

 

[Avoidthetiger]

According to him, a surprising amount of applicants actually attempt this, and in his opinion, it's very difficult for adcoms to corner any of the liars because of the sensitive nature of the issue and difficulty actually proving anything without violating their privacy.

If the guy you actually spoke to KNEW for a fact that a large number of applicants fake being a URM, he should report those people. They would be lying on their application, and that could potently be grounds for reciding an acceptance or kicking them out...or giving them a bad LOR in the future as they apply for residency. Who knows. At least the liar would be caught. If the guy is just making an assumtion that people are lying about being a URM, without any evidence, I would just not listen to him and call BS. Many people have mixed backgrounds and as you clearly stated, you can be blonde but Hispanic. I wouldn't really worry about what others put on their application, and just focus on improving your MCAT and getting into med school. 🙂

On a personal note, my mom sincerly regrets not giving me a black sounding name to have helped improve my college and med school chances, haha. I've already had people assume I'm black because I'm from a big city and have had an older phone number disconnected (My freshman year roommate's parents were freaking out about me for this reason, haha)

 

[deleted357625]

I think i can pull off Native American..


But, i don't understand how could you get away with it? Is it possible to lie and say that?

 

[deleted357625]

If the guy you actually spoke to KNEW for a fact that a large number of applicants fake being a URM, he should report those people. They would be lying on their application, and that could potently be grounds for reciding an acceptance or kicking them out...or giving them a bad LOR in the future as they apply for residency. Who knows. At least the liar would be caught. If the guy is just making an assumtion that people are lying about being a URM, without any evidence, I would just not listen to him and call BS. Many people have mixed backgrounds and as you clearly stated, you can be blonde but Hispanic. I wouldn't really worry about what others put on their application, and just focus on improving your MCAT and getting into med school. 🙂

On a personal note, my mom sincerly regrets not giving me a black sounding name to have helped improve my college and med school chances, haha. I've already had people assume I'm black because I'm from a big city and have had an older phone number disconnected (My freshman year roommate's parents were freaking out about me for this reason, haha)

that's funny hah

 

[slatermd]

Controlled for? Let's say you get an interview. What happens then?

There have been some pretty funny stories around here about people who were called out during interviews for claiming URM status. Even people who have a legitimate claim get scrutinized some places.

The whole issue (and the mere fact that this IS an issue) is a pretty funny/depressing commentary on our treatment of race and ethnicity in this country.

 

[CardiacIntensivist]

There is definitely a degree of professionalism and a threat of being caught that looms over those that would think about fudging.

There are a number of people in my class who are of mixed heritage but you'd never know it because their outward appearance is classically that of a blond hair, blue eyed Caucasian. I'm sure it must have been brought up in some way or another during interviews whether it is demonstrating your knowledge of the language, culture or family history.

 

[Pons Asinorum]

Controlled for? Let's say you get an interview. What happens then?

There have been some pretty funny stories around here about people who were called out during interviews for claiming URM status. Even people who have a legitimate claim get scrutinized some places.

The whole issue (and the mere fact that this IS an issue) is a pretty funny/depressing commentary on our treatment of race and ethnicity in this country.

This.

How is fudging URM status controlled for?
Interview.

/thread

 

[epsilonprodigy]

Controlled for? Let's say you get an interview. What happens then?

There have been some pretty funny stories around here about people who were called out during interviews for claiming URM status. Even people who have a legitimate claim get scrutinized some places.

The whole issue (and the mere fact that this IS an issue) is a pretty funny/depressing commentary on our treatment of race and ethnicity in this country.

True dat.

People were actually called out DURING interviews? Awkward much? LOL I will have to search for such threads at some point when I'm taking a break and need to entertain myself with some silliness.

 

[drizzt3117]

True dat.

People were actually called out DURING interviews? Awkward much? LOL I will have to search for such threads at some point when I'm taking a break and need to entertain myself with some silliness.

yeah people who said they were hispanic and listed spanish at a language are sometimes addressed en espanol... lol

 

[kami333]

We have CBID cards that can be used to prove affiliation. It's not perfect because of the low cut off and how easily they are illegally obtained. Once you have one, though, a school can't say you are faking it.

I honestly feel people like myself who have 1/32nd (or even 1/16ths) and grew up outside of a reservation should not be considered URM. I also think some tribes have lower cut offs than we do (smaller fraction, higher percentage NA).

You should see my gf. She's 1/8 Cherokee, her mother (1/4) and grandfather (1/2) definitely look the part but she's blond and blue eyed with freckles.

I've read that some schools/adcoms will take into account whether you've actually been active in whatever URM you claim (lived on reservation, volunteered in community, etc) when they decide how much weight to give your status.

 

[Pons Asinorum]

Bottom line: Adcoms aren't stupid.

 

[alienshards]

"So tell me about your family."

 

[eablackwell]

I can see it happening, but not everybody will take advantage of it. I'm technically a Native American; I even get a slice of casino the casino profit. I think it's absurd because I'm only 1/32nd Cherokee (the most diluted that is still considered Cherokee) and am applying as a Caucasian.

I think if you list yourself as Jamal and say you are an URM, when you show up to the interview, if you have really pale skin you'll have some explaining to do.

I'm 1/16th Cherokee, why am I not getting casino money?

 

[Astarael]

"So tell me about your family."

This 👍 All it would take is a couple pointed questions about your upbringing to determine whether or not you're classically URM or fudging it.

I guess you could lie your way through it, but most people aren't that great at lying.

 

[LizzyM]

This 👍 All it would take is a couple pointed questions about your upbringing to determine whether or not you're classically URM or fudging it.

I guess you could lie your way through it, but most people aren't that great at lying.

That assumes that the interview is open file. If it is, there might be some questions to get at an applicant's ties to their ethnic community, etc. If it seems like B.S., then the interviewer may form a negative opinion which can color (if you'll pardon the pun) the entire interview.

If it is closed file, the applicant may get away with it.

I prefer evaluating applicants based on languages spoken and significant experiences with URM communities but sometimes it does come down to whether or not someone "checked a box".

 

[Sailor Senshi Dermystify]

If the guy you actually spoke to KNEW for a fact that a large number of applicants fake being a URM, he should report those people. They would be lying on their application, and that could potently be grounds for reciding an acceptance or kicking them out...or giving them a bad LOR in the future as they apply for residency. Who knows. At least the liar would be caught. If the guy is just making an assumtion that people are lying about being a URM, without any evidence, I would just not listen to him and call BS. Many people have mixed backgrounds and as you clearly stated, you can be blonde but Hispanic. I wouldn't really worry about what others put on their application, and just focus on improving your MCAT and getting into med school. 🙂

On a personal note, my mom sincerly regrets not giving me a black sounding name to have helped improve my college and med school chances, haha. I've already had people assume I'm black because I'm from a big city and have had an older phone number disconnected (My freshman year roommate's parents were freaking out about me for this reason, haha)

What is a Black sounding name? Please let me know because I am African-American 🙂
I'm just curious on what names people considered black?

And it's not easy being a URM because it's still difficult for us to get in. It's not like we get that Charlie Golden Ticket!

 

[Thirteeen]

Perhaps I should check Male and White boxes on my employment application and increase my chances of getting a higher salary offer. LOL With all jokes aside, if it was that "easy" for URM's to get into medical school, our medical programs will be largely composed of URMs. However, that is not true. It's made up of mostly Whites and Asians. So, please give these URM threads a rest. Stop

 

[Sailor Senshi Dermystify]

Perhaps I should check Male and White boxes on my employment application and increase my chances of getting a higher salary offer. LOL With all jokes aside, if it was that "easy" for URM's to get into medical school, our medical programs will be largely composed of URMs. However, that is not true. It's made up of mostly Whites and Asians. So, please give these URM threads a rest. Stop

👍👍👍👍

I soooo agree with Thirteen and that's what I am thinking and saying 🙂

Because I am a URM I have to work EVEN HARDER because I don't want people to think I got in because I am a URM! And not a lot of URM students apply because of GPA, MCAT and not understanding the medical process. That is why they really try to recruit from this pool. It's going to be more difficult for us to get in because of the NEW MCAT!! 🙁

 

[Hoody]

my dad told me that I was like 1/24th native american, but when I was filling out a scholarship app, I asked him for the tribes name and he refused. plain o vanilla for me. 🙁

 

[Sailor Senshi Dermystify]

my dad told me that I was like 1/24th native american, but when I was filling out a scholarship app, I asked him for the tribes name and he refused. plain o vanilla for me. 🙁

It's ok 🙁 hopefully he will tell you since that's apart of your family tree 🙂

 

[indya]

I'm not sure how you're going to fake being a URM if you aren't a URM already. Pretty much all ethnicities with the exception of whites and Asians are considered URM. Neither can pass off as another ethnicity.

Indian here, but I am mistaken for hispanic every few days. Also, does pacific islander still count as URM? if so, a lot of Asians could pull that off.

 

[Hoody]

Indian here, but I am mistaken for hispanic every few days. Also, does pacific islander still count as URM? if so, a lot of Asians could pull that off.

ohhh, be hispanic if you can. 👍

 

[Pons Asinorum]

my dad told me that I was like 1/24th native american, but when I was filling out a scholarship app, I asked him for the tribes name and he refused. plain o vanilla for me. 🙁

Being 1/24 anything is a pretty feat of genetic manipulation, no doubt.

 

[MayoorBust]

My friend is Egyptian he put African American on his application. Got an interview at John Hopkins and subsequently got rejected. The schools in his state seemed to really love his 28 (took the MCAT twice 28 the first time, and 28 the second) and 3.8ish. He got accepted to at least five. His girlfriend who is white with a 33 and 3.9 got accepted to one. Does Egyptian really count as African American. I think not. So you can work that system for some of the lower tier schools. Some of the higher ranked ones will see through the b.s... because simply put I know an AA male who is applying to some of these top schools with a 33 (first time) and 3.8ish with crazy E.Cs that blow any applicant URM or not out of the water.

 

[LizzyM]

Being 1/24 anything is a pretty feat of genetic manipulation, no doubt.

or some crazy in-breeding.

 

[gettheleadout]

My friend is Egyptian he put African American on his application. Got an interview at John Hopkins and subsequently got rejected. The schools in his state seemed to really love his 28 (took the MCAT twice 28 the first time, and 28 the second) and 3.8ish. He got accepted to at least five. His girlfriend who is white with a 33 and 3.9 got accepted to one. Does Egyptian really count as African American. I think not. So you can work that system for some of the lower tier schools. Some of the higher ranked ones will see through the b.s... because simply put I know an AA male who is applying to some of these top schools with a 33 (first time) and 3.8ish with crazy E.Cs that blow any applicant URM or not out of the water.

Yeah the term really should be changed to Sub-Saharan African American. (kidding)

But seriously, if he's from black what does it matter what part of Africa his family came from?

 

[Hoody]

or some crazy in-breeding.

...anythings possible in wyoming...

 

[Hoody]

It's going to be more difficult for us to get in because of the NEW MCAT!! 🙁

huh? 😕

 

[MayoorBust]

They are pretty much are adding another verbal section (social sciences). URMs usually do very poor with sections like that.

 

[MCAT guy]

What is a Black sounding name? Please let me know because I am African-American 🙂
I'm just curious on what names people considered black?

Maurice, Tyrone, Jerome, Lil' Wayne, Lil' John, Lil' Romeo, Biggie Smallz, DJ Kahlid, Jay Z, The Notorious BIG, Puff Daddy, P Diddy, Sean Combs, and Barrack Obama

I love it when you call me Big Poppa!

 

[Thirteeen]

Maurice, Tyrone, Jerome, Lil' Wayne, Lil' John, Lil' Romeo, Biggie Smallz, DJ Kahlid, Jay Z, The Notorious BIG, Puff Daddy, P Diddy, Sean Combs, and Barrack Obama

I love it when you call me Big Poppa!

 

[MCAT guy]

Add Jamal, Shaniqua and Lil' Kim

 

[Thirteeen]

Add Jamal, Shaniqua and Lil' Kim

How about Lady Gaga and Snooki? Or better yet, The Situation. By the way, are these White names?

 

[Sailor Senshi Dermystify]

They are pretty much are adding another verbal section (social sciences). URMs usually do very poor with sections like that.

👍 Thank you for clarifying that statement to Hoody

 

[MCAT guy]

How about Lady Gaga and Snooki? Or better yet, The Situation. By the way, are these White names?

White names?

No, I would go with Luke, Tanner, Wyatt, Colin, Bradley, Justin Bieber, Ralph Macchio, and Maximus Decimus Meridius.

 

[EEFreak]

I'm 1/16th Cherokee, why am I not getting casino money?

I don't know. I was under the impression all Cherokee received it, but I'm not entirely sure how it works exactly. My parents have always handled it.

my dad told me that I was like 1/24th native american, but when I was filling out a scholarship app, I asked him for the tribes name and he refused. plain o vanilla for me. 🙁

If your not 1/2^i for i in {1, 2, 3, ...} there is something fishy going on there.

For scholarships I believe most tribes I believe you have to have substantially more Native blood in you to receive the scholarships. I think with Cherokee it is 1/8th or something like that.

 

[MCAT guy]

13, isn't your avatar dating Justin Timberlake? He name is half white / half black. Timberlake is the black half, that's why the brotha has soul and curly hair.

 

[deleted357625]

Maurice, Tyrone, Jerome, Lil' Wayne, Lil' John, Lil' Romeo, Biggie Smallz, DJ Kahlid, Jay Z, The Notorious BIG, Puff Daddy, P Diddy, Sean Combs, and Barrack Obama

I love it when you call me Big Poppa!

ADD
mistakalina
condombusta

 

[Sailor Senshi Dermystify]

Maurice, Tyrone, Jerome, Lil' Wayne, Lil' John, Lil' Romeo, Biggie Smallz, DJ Kahlid, Jay Z, The Notorious BIG, Puff Daddy, P Diddy, Sean Combs, and Barrack Obama

I love it when you call me Big Poppa!

That was soooo stereotypical that's not even funny and why are these names considered Black. Like why are names even put in racial categories. A name is a name no matter what and I guess based on this type of stereotype, I too, have a black name.

So what are White names then?
Some names are traditional to ethnic backgrounds and have a meaning.

So do you judge someone's character because of their names? Like if you meant a Jerome or something of that sort, would you think that they were ghetto and loud? You prob do.

 

[Thirteeen]

13, isn't your avatar dating Justin Timberlake? He name is half white / half black. Timberlake is the black half, that's why the brotha has soul and curly hair.

No! They are not dating. JT does have soul for a white dude.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/05/olivia-wilde-justin-timberlake-dating-denial_n_845095.html

 

[deleted357625]

that was soooo stereotypical that's not even funny and why are these names considered black. Like why are names even put in racial categories. A name is a name no matter what and i guess based on this type of stereotype, i too, have a black name.

so what are white names then?
some names are traditional to ethnic backgrounds and have a meaning.

So do you judge someone's character because of their names? Like if you meant a jerome or something of that sort, would you think that they were ghetto and loud? You prob do.

bob

 

[Negrodamus]

This thread makes me . Black names, white names, soul, inbreeding... wtf?

 

[Thirteeen]

This thread makes me.

My comments?!

 

[docjack]

That was soooo stereotypical that's not even funny and why are these names considered Black. Like why are names even put in racial categories. A name is a name no matter what and I guess based on this type of stereotype, I too, have a black name.

So what are White names then?
Some names are traditional to ethnic backgrounds and have a meaning.

So do you judge someone's character because of their names? Like if you meant a Jerome or something of that sort, would you think that they were ghetto and loud? You prob do.

Actually, Jerome was considered a white, anglo, preppy name. My friend's father teaches philosophy at WashU. His name is Jerome.

We call him Jerry.

Like the mouse.

 

[MCAT guy]

That was soooo stereotypical that's not even funny and why are these names considered Black. Like why are names even put in racial categories. A name is a name no matter what and I guess based on this type of stereotype, I too, have a black name.

So what are White names then?
Some names are traditional to ethnic backgrounds and have a meaning.

So do you judge someone's character because of their names? Like if you meant a Jerome or something of that sort, would you think that they were ghetto and loud? You prob do.

Lol bro, chillax.

You asked for black names, I delivered. Lil' Wayne isn't a white guy and Justin Bieber isn't black. I did list some white names above. 🙂

No one mentioned character or being ghetto and loud. Although, when I hear the name Biggie Smallz I do hope he is kind of loud and can flow on the mic.