Full Ride @ Ross or go US MD ?
Started by hussamdein
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I know of no cases where Ross gives out free rides - its counter to their business model. Ross is a for profit institution, they want to make money from the tuition.
Also have you already been accepted to both US medical schools and Ross?
Also have you already been accepted to both US medical schools and Ross?
no brainer.. even if Ross payed my to go their school and i was already accepted to a US med school i would go to the US med school.
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This isn't for me - a good friend of mine. I'm a 3rd year at a U.S. MD school, but I was just curious about everyone's thoughts on this. As crazy as it may sound, I think I would take the free ride. It's essentially 300K after interest.
I was a bit skeptical at first myself about the veracity of his claim, but frankly, I don't care. I just think it poses a very interesting (and thought provoking) scenario.
But you would be able to apply for your residency w/ ZERO in loans. Doesn't that affect your decision at all?
nope because i would much rather be able to get a residency and a program of my choice than have to settle for something i am not interested in just because i am an img, or go to a program which won't give me as good a training or a chance of doing a fellowship. money is only money. being happy with your career for the rest of your life is a lot more important.
Have to agree with everyone else on this one. When confronted with being able to go to a US medical school and being $200,000 in debt, versus going to a foreign medical school for free, I'd rather be in debt up to my eyeballs and be in a good position to match or go into a residency of my choice, than be debt free but struggling to find a residency program that will accept me.
I've met way too many FMG at my hospital telling me that they regret their decision to go abroad. A lot of them are US Permanent Residents or Student Visa holders who could have come to the US for college and medical school, but who chose to go back to their home country for medical school (because it's free for them). Unfortunately, the amount of time and money saved by going abroad is offset by the fact that they are essentially "locked out" of desirable residency programs and many (probably 50-60%) are not ever going to match because they failed their boards.
You may save time and money going abroad, and certainly there are a lot of success stories out there - but the quality of overseas schools are still questionable, and the fact is, the US medical system is not set up to be friendly to foreign medical school graduates.
I would almost go as so far as to say that I'd pay an additional $200,000 in loans if it would assure me that everything from MS1 through the finally days of residency were on par with U.S. schools. From problems with institutions, to problems with rotations, to problems with residency, to less tangible things like problems with (usually older) physicians & hospital staff that treat you differently. Too many horror stories.
Don't get me wrong, I'm grateful for the opportunity and wouldn't change a single decision I've made if I could turn back the clock a year or two, but it's really not a head scratcher on where to go for school.
I'm sure I can accomplish everything I ever wanted to where I am, but there are just a hell of a lot of extra pit falls and hoops.
If one got into a US medical school I'd advise them to go. Plus I am very skeptical that anyone, regardless of scores would get a free ride to Ross. Many US medical schools rarely give free rides to stellar applicants. Maybe in a class of 200 one or two will have their tuition paid for by a US medical school as a merit scholarship. They still have to come up with room and board expenses. Like a poster mentioned, Ross is a for profit school.
I disagree 100% here. You don't have to settle for a lame residency due to the fact that you are a img. You will get the lame residency because you earned it. I would take a free ride at ross any day over full price at a US school. Just be aware that you must have >3.5 and >140 Step scores to get a great residency. I'm gamble those odds because I can control my study habits and my practice to get good grades and test marks. I can't control the bank rate for a 250-400k education that ends up being closer to 400-600 k in interest looming over you for the next 20 years. If I wanted gas and it was possible for me to get gas from Ross or us schools, I choose to do so debt free. Also remember, the military match is friendlier to US fmgs than the regular match. I can see a img matching pathology, gas, rad, maybe derm easily in the military match. jmo!
more than 140 step score?? 185 is passing buddy... maybe when you took the step in the 70's it was 140. but now even with 260's on both steps and a 4.0 GPA all the top places even for IM will not look at your application because you're an IMG and they have a strictly no IMG policy. Places like Duke, UCSF, MGH, Brigham and Women's, Columbia, Cornell, Mt. Saini, UPenn, and many many more that i didn't feel like listing.
Ohh yeah Gas is possible.. out of 1000 Ross grads in the 2009 match less than 20 got gas, yeah great odds, and where did most of them get it? at some crappy low tier community hospital, and if one or two got a low tier university program they were looked at as gods. you can control your studying sure but if you're a rock star in the caribbean and very few are, then you'll be a rock star in the US, and those same grades you'd get from the US and same Step scores will open up at least twice as many doors for you, I know US students with 210 on step1 and 220 on step2 that match into Gas at a University program for the 2009 match, I bet every single Ross student that matched into Gas this year had at least a 230 if not 240's on both steps, if the same US student had 230's or 240's on the steps they would match into a top tier or middle tier university program and what's middle tier for gas U of Michigan, U of Arizona, U of Florida.. good luck matching at any of those places as an IMG, because they don't look at IMG applications, period. that's those schools policy and many other schools policy and nothing will change that, unless of course your the program directors son or daughter... Or you're the only one applying to their program which will never be the case.
ohh the military match is great.. yeah not difficult to match at all.. IF you're in the military... they have a messed up ranking system that if you served or were in the military you'll be automatically ranked higher than a civilian no matter what your Step scores or grades are. As a civilian after a few years of GMO tours maybe then you'll build up enough credit to be ranked high enough to match. Also in the military match you it's not looked favorable to rank multiple specialties meaning the military will not let you do that, and if you rank one specialty you have to apply to all the places that have it. And actually Gas is very hard to get in the Military because it's one of the most popular specialties that and Ortho and Gen Surg and the rest of the specialties you mentioned are hit or miss.. Ohh and pathology is a joke to get into in the civilian world if you want to be a pathologist more power to you.
Not to mention the fact that those military residencies are so "huge" that they often go unfilled. ( I was being sarcastic if you didn't catch that) The Army has 3 spots each year for Anesthesia, 3 for Dermatology, 4 for Radiology, and a whole 7 spots for Pathology. I am sure other branches of the armed forces have a similar number of spots if not less. And like I said before those spots will always, i mean always go to a military person ahead of a civilian. Now if you're a served in the Navy like you did or another military branch it might be easier for you, but most haven't and the army doesn't have a tough time filling 3 anesthesia spots or 3 derm spots especially when they'll take anyone from the military that applies. But also being from the Navy you know how notorious they are for their GMO tours, that are what something like 4 years? So yeah by all means apply to the military match, do you know that as an IMG they won't look at your application unless you finish a Civilian internship and pass step3? after that they'll make you do a GMO tour with a promises of a residency spots and then after 4 years (which doesn't count towards your active duty that you'll owe them after residency) maybe they'll match you somewhere.
So if you'd much rather bust you butt at a free carib school and then be forced to go to a low tier bottom of the barrel community program in a competitive specialty or at best a mid tier university program at a none competitive specialty and then struggle more to get a fellowship if you want one or struggle to get the job that you want, cause lets face it many groups will be picky who they hire(many good groups that people want to work with only will hire grads from their alma mater), and also those low tier community programs don't train the same caliber physician as a Top or Mid Tier University program (why not? because they simply don't get to see the pathology and the volume of cases that those university programs get to see). so you risk not working for the group that you want to work for, and your training will be by far more inferior to someone at a major university, just because you won't get to the same pathology. And once you're in private land you better be able to do it all and know it all no one is going to hold your hand. At best you'll get sued and be able to keep your job at worst you'll get fired and will have a tough time finding a new job that you like because you're just inferior to the other grads.
So yeah I would much rather be in debt knowing that i'll have all the doors open to me and potential for a top notch education and residency and then potential to join a top notch group that not only pays better than other groups but also works less, has more benefits and more vacation time with less paper work and less call and not located in BFE. Than to know that my med school education is free but i'll have to work my butt off just to make it to a low tier residency program and be grateful that i got the chance to be the type of physician i want to be and wasn't forced to just pick FM or Psych or IM just so that I'll have a residency and a job. And then i'd have to struggle with a fellowship if i want one or will struggle to join the group of my dreams and will have to settle for working in BFE or at a lower wage or whatever.
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typo. I meant >240. I haven't taken the test yet buddy. Joo, you need to wake up and smell the coffee. Who cares about Duke and all those other places. This is similar to when we all graduated high school. Ohh, I need a 1600 on my sat to get into Duke and harvard etc.. Who really cares. I'm not disagreeing with you with the fact that you prob won't get a program liek duke coming from a carib school, but most US grads won't either and they still have the debt floating over their head. Yes, US schools are the way to go. I would not trade up my seat at MCG for any school in the caribbean. However, MCG is not Duke or standford or harvard or hopkins. I will be more than happy to do my residency here at this level 1 trauma center in Augusta, Ga. The point I'm making is that If you have dreams of going to a top 3-5 residency program, you should not be in teh caribbeans to begin with. Second, a ER residency at mercer and a ER residency at hopkins end up with 2 ER docs with 1 difference, 1 could be 400k less in the hole by choosing a free ride, if this even exists, from Ross. Joo, look at the load off your shoulders by not having to pay for medical school. The military gives schoalrships like free rides through med school, but you owe them so much time back when you're done, during which they pay you by rank and not specialty, it is not worth it overall. I think this is a stupid poll and is a insult to a school like ross that people would rather go to any other us school for full price over a free ride at ross, which lets you practice in all 50 states just like the us med school. FMgs should not be picky about their residency spot in the us. That's all I"m saying. I see no reason why you can't be happy coming from Ross. If you are doc material, then you should have no problem ranking high amongst 1000 fellow students with <3.0 GPA or <25 MCAT scores. this is not a bash but a good thing. It DOES not matter if you go to hopkins or duke, just get into a school and do well there.
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dude you're at a US med school. you know nothing about the discrimination that IMGs face when it comes to residencies. How do you think it feels when you bust your butt and study hard and get good grades and then your buddy who got lucky and got into a US med school, (cause I know of a lot of people who were wait listed to US schools with >30 mcats and 3.7 gpa's who eneded up going to Ross and SGU cause they didn't want to waste another year) who gets 20 points lower than you on Step1 and has a slightly lower GPA gets a mid to low tier University program while you struggle and kiss butts to get a community program residency just because you weren't lucky enough to get into a US school, or when you're granted an interview and you fly to that hospital and get a hotel room, and the very first thing out of the program directors mouth when he gives the welcome speech is If you're an IMG you have zero chance of matching here, we do not rank IMGs.... Or when your application is simply not seen by the program you applied to because you're an IMG and it got filtered out. Stuff like this happens on a daily basis.
That's great that you personally think that IMGs are equal to you, but you're one of the very few who thank that way. And program directors don't think that way at all and would much rather take a US grad who scores 20 points lower on the steps than an IMG. Cause lets face it residency programs are ranked as well and if they take an img your rank will drop.
Also getting above a 240 isn't as easy as you think.. it's almost 1 standard deviation above the mean. that means 84th percentile.. that means you did better than 84% of US grads. Do you think you're smarter than 84% of US medical students? well you'll see when you get your grade back how easy it is to get 240, even for someone who studies a lot.
Also it's not fair to judge Ross that way? have you had any sort of interaction with the administration at Ross or the students at Ross or do you just know that it's a school in the caribbean that US citizens sometimes go to.. Well Ross only cares about one thing, money. They accept everyone probably over 1200 students per year (3 semesters of 400 or more students) and then screw around with the grades to make sure that about 1/3 or more fail out by the time they reach 2nd year because they simply don't have enough clinical spots for all those students, they know this up front but still accept these huge numbers because lets face it you'll pay the tuition and they'll make money on you. Some Ross students have to take step2 without completing some of their cores, or have to wait for months for a core to open up so that they can take it or won't finish their cores until the end of their 4th year of med school. So Ross deserves all the criticism.
That bold statement says it all... "FMGs should not be picky about their residency spot in the US". but what if you want to be picky? why do US grads have the right to be picky but fmg's don't? does that mean that FMGs should just take any IM or FP position offered to them, even though they don't want to be an fp.. But what if I want to be at a University residency program... ohh i can't because i am an FMG? hmm interesting.. so if you want to be at a univeristy program or want to pick the specialty you want to go into then you shouldn't go to a foreign med school? isn't that what I originally said and you disagreed to it?
Lastly if you're so pro Ross and the caribbean, I would gladly trade spots with you and pay your Ross tuition for you.. i'll even do better I am an SGU student we have much better and many more clinical sites than ross, you can go there. I know SGU will take you because you got into a US school and will even give you advanced status so you don't have to repeat classes and well I am starting my 4th year but I'll be willing to do my 3rd year over and I did well above average on step1 so if you go to your school administrator and say i would like to switch places i am sure they wouldn't mind. Hey I'll even throw in $50K, call it a sign up bonus. So what do you say? deal? probably not, because you want to pick where you do your residency and what specialty you want to do it in, and if you're an IMG you simply can't do that. And that's my whole point. I don't want to be a mediocre doctor, and if I do my training at a community program that's exactly what i'll be, simply because the opportunities won't be there. Sure I can study hard read on my own but unless I get to manage those tough cases or rare pathologies that come into University hospitals or get transferred right away to university hospitals, I won't know what to do with them when I see one in private practice and that will make me inferior to my US med school trained counterpart.
Debt is nothing, it's only money.. everyone in the US is in debt. you buy a house you're in debt for 30 years, you buy a car you're in debt, many of those that have credit cards are in debt. more than 50% of the US is in debt, heck the US government owe trillions of dollars to China and other countries, but that's not stopping them from living and being happy. And you'll be much happier as a person if you can do the specialty of your dreams in the location you want (fine not the exact program that you want) but at least the location that you want, and as an IMG you simply can't do that. you apply all over the country and who ever accepts you that's where you go, because like you said you can't be picky as an IMG. and sometimes you're forced to pick a specialty you hate, simply because your an IMG but hey it's either this or it's not being a doctor so you take it.
I would much rather be in debt cause I am going to be in debt anyway when i buy a house or buy a car but at least i'll love what I do and will live where I want to live, and will go to work happy instead of hating my life but hey being debt free...
it's like AIDS patients on HAART therapy. the protease inhibitors cause them to have hyperlipedimia and hyperglycemia, but they're alive. and you're saying I would rather have normal lipid and glucose levels but be dead.
and to make a final statement if you have a 3.5 gpa and >240 on step1 programs like Duke will interview you if you're in a US med school, i know this for a fact. but if you're an IMG with a 4.0 and a 250 or even 260 they won't even see your application because they have filters that filter out all IMGs.
I will end this debate. This post was not of fact, but opinion. It really appears to me that you want the best decisions possible for you. That is great. You are apprently smart, although you misunderstood some of my points. You do you and I will do me. A couple of questions come to mind regarding your passion.
1. It really strikes me that you believe in the impossible odds of getting a good residency in the US coming from a SGU. I am not arguing that fact. Did you not know this before going to SGU or was it a total surprise?
2. How many times did you try to get into a US med school? >3 times. The reason I'm asking is because you are making it sound like total doom by going the caribbean route. If this route is so bad, I would have tried 5+ times to get into a US school.
3. Did you complete a masters degree after rejection from US med school.?
4. You WILL not be denied entry into a US med school with >3.5 and >30 mcat. Sorry dude, you are over hyping the US school system. Many state schools and ALL DO schools take those numbers. If you are so picky about residency spot, did you turn your nose up at DO schools?
5. I'm not too familiar with your SG?u situation, but is it not possible to trasnfer to a US school during your 3rd year. You may have to repeat a year or something, but wouldn't that look good for your residency consideration? At the point of total doom, as you put it, I would try just about anything to get out.
6. Did you personally go through any top residency program? You base too much on name and numbers and you don't base enough on your own ability. I was told that Emory was a TOP school and I choose MCG over their acceptance. hmmm, I wonder why I did that?
7. So every img gets paid less than US med students. You sir are totally FOS. I guess Dos get paid less than US MD students too...
8. I agree with your residency ranking system. However, residencies rank according to their over all hospital performance, not how many imgs they have. There are other more important things that matter like actually performance. Unless are are stating that FMGs are less superior in medicine performance, what are you talking about. It is not like interns and residents walk around with their medical school name on their scrubs. Half of teh time, interns and residents are so busy they don't care where you are from. They just care about you doing yor share. Yes, some top top top prgrams screen out fms. So, don't apply to them. there are plenty of other fish in the sea.
9. My friend, I actually got luck in the finance department. My total medical school finances will be <75k. That is why I turned the military HPSP scholarship down. However, if my school was 25k a semester like EVMS or something, I would gladly swap places for a free ride at SGU. AGAIN, JMO!
1. It really strikes me that you believe in the impossible odds of getting a good residency in the US coming from a SGU. I am not arguing that fact. Did you not know this before going to SGU or was it a total surprise?
2. How many times did you try to get into a US med school? >3 times. The reason I'm asking is because you are making it sound like total doom by going the caribbean route. If this route is so bad, I would have tried 5+ times to get into a US school.
3. Did you complete a masters degree after rejection from US med school.?
4. You WILL not be denied entry into a US med school with >3.5 and >30 mcat. Sorry dude, you are over hyping the US school system. Many state schools and ALL DO schools take those numbers. If you are so picky about residency spot, did you turn your nose up at DO schools?
5. I'm not too familiar with your SG?u situation, but is it not possible to trasnfer to a US school during your 3rd year. You may have to repeat a year or something, but wouldn't that look good for your residency consideration? At the point of total doom, as you put it, I would try just about anything to get out.
6. Did you personally go through any top residency program? You base too much on name and numbers and you don't base enough on your own ability. I was told that Emory was a TOP school and I choose MCG over their acceptance. hmmm, I wonder why I did that?
7. So every img gets paid less than US med students. You sir are totally FOS. I guess Dos get paid less than US MD students too...
8. I agree with your residency ranking system. However, residencies rank according to their over all hospital performance, not how many imgs they have. There are other more important things that matter like actually performance. Unless are are stating that FMGs are less superior in medicine performance, what are you talking about. It is not like interns and residents walk around with their medical school name on their scrubs. Half of teh time, interns and residents are so busy they don't care where you are from. They just care about you doing yor share. Yes, some top top top prgrams screen out fms. So, don't apply to them. there are plenty of other fish in the sea.
9. My friend, I actually got luck in the finance department. My total medical school finances will be <75k. That is why I turned the military HPSP scholarship down. However, if my school was 25k a semester like EVMS or something, I would gladly swap places for a free ride at SGU. AGAIN, JMO!
sure i'll play your game.
1) I didn't really think about residencies when i was applying.. cause well that was 4 years away and if i would have started asking people would tell me to go to med school first and then worry about residencies.. It's not impossible to get a residency from SGU. it's impossible to get solid University program from SGU. How important that is I won't know for sure till I am out of residency and applying for jobs. I think it's important, others might not, and they might think that as long as you're board certified and your school is recognized in all 50 states then it really doesn't matter, where you did your residency because you'll be able to get licensed and work/live in whatever state you want. I hope that's the case because I doubt I am going to match into a University program, although i'll definitely be applying to them. And no it wasn't a total surprise it was acpected, i just had no other options at that time.
2) I didn't apply to any US schools my GPA and MCAT scores were far bellow the average and I knew I had no chance. I guess I should have maybe applied to my state schools because I met some members of the board and got one to write me a letter of rec, even though it was a really weak one, he did drop some names though so that might have gotten me an interview, but my GPA and mcat scores were way too low and i really didn't want to embarrass myself or the dude who wrote me the LOR, he really only met me for like an hour and since he was an alumni of my undergrad offered to write me a LOR. So yeah I had no chance at US schools.
3) I probably wouldn't have gotten ino a decent masters program either.. my gpa was very low and my undergrad advisor was pretty bad and basically only advised people who had a shot at getting into US schools. She did write me a committee letter and got all my other paper work organised and shipped out to the carib schools for me which was nice.
4) This all depends what state you're from. If you're a resident of the state school then yes the gpa and mcat are a little lower. but you're correct the average gpa's and mcats that are on most US med school websites are about 3.6 and a 32.. but having just grades won't cut it.. US schools are pretty picky and can easily fill classes with students who have 4.0's and >36 mcat score, good thing they look for extracurricular activities and life experiences as well. I am over hyping them cause I know people who got rejected with >3.5 gpa and >30mcat scores and those guys weren't jerks or anything it just that a lot of people apply to those schools and not everyone can be accepted. I only overhype their easy of obtaining residencies, i know the education is the same, i know i am just as smart as most of them and definitely have a harder work ethic then some of them (i have met a ton of hard core slackers during rotations from US schools). but program directors are biased and rightfully so. DO schools are pretty easy to get into their average gpa is like a 3.2 and mcat is like a 26.. If I had to do it all over again i would have applied to DO schools. but when i was applying the only DO I knew was my undergrad's physician and the way he described being a DO to me made me think that DO's went only into primary care and I never wanted to do primary care. So I didn't apply to DO schools. had i known then what i know now i would have applied to a DO school in a heart beat.
5)well it's possible to transfer into 3rd year. I know plenty of people who have. but I never said it's a total doom. i just said i'd much rather be able to have a choice of where i do my residency or what field i do my residency in and be in debt than, not having a debt but having to do a residency in a specialty i hate or in a location i don't want to live in, or get crappier training or not be able to apply for a fellowship because i did my residency at some community hospital and not at university hospital. Don't get me wrong i'll still be able to match hopefully in the specialty of my choice. (luckily it's not super competitve just yet).. i am just saying that it would much much easier to match from a US school, and if i had the same stats i do now at a US school i wouldn't be worried about the match at all, while i'll probably try to prematch somewhere just so i don't have to gamble witht the match.
6) No, unfortunately i didn't go through a top residency program, but I know people who have, and I know the type of cases they do and the type of patient population they get. and it's a lot more sick than your average community program patient population. When I was doing my ICU rotation at my community hospital that's affiliated with my school we had a lady who just had a modified radical neck disection with a pectoral flap for neck cancer. Well after a few days the ENT surgeons realised that the flap had died and started to necros, what happend to her? she got transfered by chopper to a University hospital in NYC a few hours later.. why? because those doctors just couldn't manage her. So if I was a resident at that community hospital i would lose out on that learning experience, and if i was a resident at NYU (where she got transfered to) I would have gained that knowledge and experience, and patients like that get transfered to top notch hospitals all the time. You might not think it's important to learn how to manage tough patients or to see a mix of pathology instead of just the same bread and butter cases, but I think it's a valuable experience to have, even if i don't ever manage a patient that sick still knowing that i can manage someone very sick or that i have done it in the past is a lot better than not being exposed to that in residency because if anyone is that sick they don't end up in your hospital.
I know why you did that.. cause you're a Georgia resident and it's probably like 50% cheaper for you to go to MCG than to Emory.. but here's the thing both are US schools. Would you have more doors open to you if you went to Emory? probably.. but you'll still have doors open for you as an MCG grad. Had those two schools been the same amount of money would you have picked MCG? probably not.
7) I never said that IMGs or DOs get paid less it's all about how good of a businessman you are if you open your own practice you can make whatever you want.. all i said was that if you want to join a group it will be much harder to join a good group, i.e. good location or good pay (because most of their patients have private insurance and not medicare/medicaid.) or good benefits, and not because you're an IMG or DO but because of where you did your residency, and by that i mean community program vs. univeristy program. If all the partners in a group are UF grads and the rest of the people in the group are also grads from university programs, they would have to be very very desperate to hire someone who did their residency at a community hospital. Now groups that are located in underserved areas, and have a smaller earning potential because most of their patient base is people with medicare/medicaid and almost none with private insurances will jump at the chance to hire a grad from a community hospital residency because, the more people they hire the less nights they have to be on call. but those groups will naturally pay less because they get paid less themelves. (it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure all this out) and after residency it doesn't really matter where you went to med school it only matters where you did your resdiency, just like once you got into med school it didn't matter where you went to college. So it's pretty obvious that grads from University or Top notch residency programs will be recruited more heavily by good groups than those that graduate from a community hospital residency program.
8) Well I know your place takes IMGs and i'll definitely be applying there, and you're right that many places do take IMGs and DO's. but my whole point was that those IMGs had much better stats than their US counter parts who got the same residencies. And if those IMGs were at US med schools they would have matched at better programs. That's.. is if unfair i don't think so. I think this is how it should be.. but my views are very concervative and traditional. I think it's okay to haze in fraternities too because it's tradition. What can I say I am a moderately right wing republican.
9) i guess to each his own.. i want to see weird, rare cases, and learn to manage tough patients. For example how cool would it have been to be a resident scrubbed in on that face transplant at the Cleveland Clinic? I don't think doctors who finish community hospital residencies are as capable as those graduating from university residencies, and it's much much harder to match into a university residency as an IMG than it is as a US grad.
Look anything is possible I know SGU grads who matched into TOP TOP university residency programs.. or TOP TOP specialities. but they're very few of success stories like that, and the majority of IMGs end up at community hospital residencies, with only the top candidates who match into university programs. and majority of US grads end up at University hospital residencies while only the bottom 5% of the class ends up at a community hospital. That's all i was saying and although debt is a big deal to you. it's not to me, and according to the poll it's not to a lot of people.
1) I didn't really think about residencies when i was applying.. cause well that was 4 years away and if i would have started asking people would tell me to go to med school first and then worry about residencies.. It's not impossible to get a residency from SGU. it's impossible to get solid University program from SGU. How important that is I won't know for sure till I am out of residency and applying for jobs. I think it's important, others might not, and they might think that as long as you're board certified and your school is recognized in all 50 states then it really doesn't matter, where you did your residency because you'll be able to get licensed and work/live in whatever state you want. I hope that's the case because I doubt I am going to match into a University program, although i'll definitely be applying to them. And no it wasn't a total surprise it was acpected, i just had no other options at that time.
2) I didn't apply to any US schools my GPA and MCAT scores were far bellow the average and I knew I had no chance. I guess I should have maybe applied to my state schools because I met some members of the board and got one to write me a letter of rec, even though it was a really weak one, he did drop some names though so that might have gotten me an interview, but my GPA and mcat scores were way too low and i really didn't want to embarrass myself or the dude who wrote me the LOR, he really only met me for like an hour and since he was an alumni of my undergrad offered to write me a LOR. So yeah I had no chance at US schools.
3) I probably wouldn't have gotten ino a decent masters program either.. my gpa was very low and my undergrad advisor was pretty bad and basically only advised people who had a shot at getting into US schools. She did write me a committee letter and got all my other paper work organised and shipped out to the carib schools for me which was nice.
4) This all depends what state you're from. If you're a resident of the state school then yes the gpa and mcat are a little lower. but you're correct the average gpa's and mcats that are on most US med school websites are about 3.6 and a 32.. but having just grades won't cut it.. US schools are pretty picky and can easily fill classes with students who have 4.0's and >36 mcat score, good thing they look for extracurricular activities and life experiences as well. I am over hyping them cause I know people who got rejected with >3.5 gpa and >30mcat scores and those guys weren't jerks or anything it just that a lot of people apply to those schools and not everyone can be accepted. I only overhype their easy of obtaining residencies, i know the education is the same, i know i am just as smart as most of them and definitely have a harder work ethic then some of them (i have met a ton of hard core slackers during rotations from US schools). but program directors are biased and rightfully so. DO schools are pretty easy to get into their average gpa is like a 3.2 and mcat is like a 26.. If I had to do it all over again i would have applied to DO schools. but when i was applying the only DO I knew was my undergrad's physician and the way he described being a DO to me made me think that DO's went only into primary care and I never wanted to do primary care. So I didn't apply to DO schools. had i known then what i know now i would have applied to a DO school in a heart beat.
5)well it's possible to transfer into 3rd year. I know plenty of people who have. but I never said it's a total doom. i just said i'd much rather be able to have a choice of where i do my residency or what field i do my residency in and be in debt than, not having a debt but having to do a residency in a specialty i hate or in a location i don't want to live in, or get crappier training or not be able to apply for a fellowship because i did my residency at some community hospital and not at university hospital. Don't get me wrong i'll still be able to match hopefully in the specialty of my choice. (luckily it's not super competitve just yet).. i am just saying that it would much much easier to match from a US school, and if i had the same stats i do now at a US school i wouldn't be worried about the match at all, while i'll probably try to prematch somewhere just so i don't have to gamble witht the match.
6) No, unfortunately i didn't go through a top residency program, but I know people who have, and I know the type of cases they do and the type of patient population they get. and it's a lot more sick than your average community program patient population. When I was doing my ICU rotation at my community hospital that's affiliated with my school we had a lady who just had a modified radical neck disection with a pectoral flap for neck cancer. Well after a few days the ENT surgeons realised that the flap had died and started to necros, what happend to her? she got transfered by chopper to a University hospital in NYC a few hours later.. why? because those doctors just couldn't manage her. So if I was a resident at that community hospital i would lose out on that learning experience, and if i was a resident at NYU (where she got transfered to) I would have gained that knowledge and experience, and patients like that get transfered to top notch hospitals all the time. You might not think it's important to learn how to manage tough patients or to see a mix of pathology instead of just the same bread and butter cases, but I think it's a valuable experience to have, even if i don't ever manage a patient that sick still knowing that i can manage someone very sick or that i have done it in the past is a lot better than not being exposed to that in residency because if anyone is that sick they don't end up in your hospital.
I know why you did that.. cause you're a Georgia resident and it's probably like 50% cheaper for you to go to MCG than to Emory.. but here's the thing both are US schools. Would you have more doors open to you if you went to Emory? probably.. but you'll still have doors open for you as an MCG grad. Had those two schools been the same amount of money would you have picked MCG? probably not.
7) I never said that IMGs or DOs get paid less it's all about how good of a businessman you are if you open your own practice you can make whatever you want.. all i said was that if you want to join a group it will be much harder to join a good group, i.e. good location or good pay (because most of their patients have private insurance and not medicare/medicaid.) or good benefits, and not because you're an IMG or DO but because of where you did your residency, and by that i mean community program vs. univeristy program. If all the partners in a group are UF grads and the rest of the people in the group are also grads from university programs, they would have to be very very desperate to hire someone who did their residency at a community hospital. Now groups that are located in underserved areas, and have a smaller earning potential because most of their patient base is people with medicare/medicaid and almost none with private insurances will jump at the chance to hire a grad from a community hospital residency because, the more people they hire the less nights they have to be on call. but those groups will naturally pay less because they get paid less themelves. (it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure all this out) and after residency it doesn't really matter where you went to med school it only matters where you did your resdiency, just like once you got into med school it didn't matter where you went to college. So it's pretty obvious that grads from University or Top notch residency programs will be recruited more heavily by good groups than those that graduate from a community hospital residency program.
8) Well I know your place takes IMGs and i'll definitely be applying there, and you're right that many places do take IMGs and DO's. but my whole point was that those IMGs had much better stats than their US counter parts who got the same residencies. And if those IMGs were at US med schools they would have matched at better programs. That's.. is if unfair i don't think so. I think this is how it should be.. but my views are very concervative and traditional. I think it's okay to haze in fraternities too because it's tradition. What can I say I am a moderately right wing republican.
9) i guess to each his own.. i want to see weird, rare cases, and learn to manage tough patients. For example how cool would it have been to be a resident scrubbed in on that face transplant at the Cleveland Clinic? I don't think doctors who finish community hospital residencies are as capable as those graduating from university residencies, and it's much much harder to match into a university residency as an IMG than it is as a US grad.
Look anything is possible I know SGU grads who matched into TOP TOP university residency programs.. or TOP TOP specialities. but they're very few of success stories like that, and the majority of IMGs end up at community hospital residencies, with only the top candidates who match into university programs. and majority of US grads end up at University hospital residencies while only the bottom 5% of the class ends up at a community hospital. That's all i was saying and although debt is a big deal to you. it's not to me, and according to the poll it's not to a lot of people.
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I understand where you are coming from RJ. When I was shadowing several docs, they asked me my plan. I mentioned that the caribbean route was by backup if I failed to get into US schools and they all jumped on me 1 after another telling me not to do this. I did some research and I know that those docs went to med school 15-20 years ago and schools like SGU and Ross didi not have the name they do today. Now, those schools are more developed and have turned out so pretty good docs. I really wish you have at least tried US admissions. Since SGU admitted you, that means you may have had a change at a interview. If you sold yourself during the interview, you may get waitlisted and eventually accepted. Yes, MCG is a lot cheaper than Emory, but that was not why I chose it. Emory, its faculty, its students, are people that I could not see myself associating with. Programs like emory are extremely cut throat. MCG had a home feeling about it and I liked the fact that they did not rank their class. This rank looks good for the top 50 students, but virtually almost eliminates the rest from getting a dream spot. Let me tell you a little about me and why I think the way I do. AS you can see, I was in the navy. however, I was a field corpsman. I joined the navy for education, but the navy wanted NAVY first and education last. My command put up all types of obstacles to prevent people from going to school (ie not routing TA chits and classes end up getting dropped) I can't tell you how much I sacrified to get my degree in that environment. four months before I took my MCAT, I got activated off the sub-list to the A list and got deployed to Iraq for 1 year. I was the only medical support in a hot zone with my marines. As I took that test, I had no idea if i would even get back to apply to schools. I did not give up and I scored a 33 on the test and my gpa was a 3.5. These were not stellat stats but I got in, not even waitlisted. I made it back safe and vowed to not let anything hold me back that was out of my control. See, I refuse to judge a man's ability on something as routine as where he/she did med school, their undergrad, their SAT, their high school. The measuring stick for all docs is the USLME. This is where I bet my barganing chips on goo ddocs this point in my your medical career. Later on, that test will seem trivial to the performace of the docs on the wards, OR, and clinics. I know that some people had tough times in undergrad, but who knows their circumstance. The top caribbean schools give you one last shot to exercise those demons and still reach your dreams. It sucks that certain schools don't look at fmgs the same as US, but that is their loss. I truly believe that fmgs that overcome all of that really really want it and will be great docs of the future. My freind, never look back at the decisions you made with regret. Find a way to turn that lemon into lemonade and always be humble and true to yourself. As long as you do that, you will susceed wherever you match. If I had a 400k med school loan in the balance, I would easily gamble that away at a free ried at ross or SGU because I belive enough in myself to overcome those high odds stacked against me. I can't ask another person to do the same, but I would. Stastically speaking, I should have died 3 years ago in iraq but I didn't. If I had a inferior complex about myself over there and the lack of my Rambo skills, I would have been.
PS: What year are you in and what areas do you want to apply to match?
MCG accepted a Ross person in radiology, which is a sign that things are changing. MCG
usually accepts fmgs in roles like FP, IM, peds, and OB. A rad guy means there is a
surgery coming soon. Apply there, it is a level 1 trauma center and a nice place to do
residency. not too much in the city to miss as you pound away those long hours in the
hospital. Cost of living is awesome so a resident couold live their quite nice in comparison
to NY, Chicago, etc.
PS: What year are you in and what areas do you want to apply to match?
MCG accepted a Ross person in radiology, which is a sign that things are changing. MCG
usually accepts fmgs in roles like FP, IM, peds, and OB. A rad guy means there is a
surgery coming soon. Apply there, it is a level 1 trauma center and a nice place to do
residency. not too much in the city to miss as you pound away those long hours in the
hospital. Cost of living is awesome so a resident couold live their quite nice in comparison
to NY, Chicago, etc.
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Yep that whole thing about the Navy doesn't surprise me one bit... that's why the military match is so undesirable cause no one wants the army controlling their life. basically people will match into whatever the predicted need is for that year.
I but you got accepted because of your army background...that carries some weight to make you unique. Also I bet in the South the military background is taken with a little more respect then in some parts of the north.
No honestly applying to US school would have been a waste. My GPA was <3.0, and my MCAT was <25. they weren't much lower but still below those values. The only thing that helped me out was the fact that I was an EMT for 4years, RA for 3years, did some BS research, and got B's in some Grad level biochem classes (which only looked good on paper but were a complete joke). Also I interview pretty well..
I was a huge slacker in undergrad, and was very lucky I got in to SGU. if I were to apply now I probably wouldn't get in.
You should find out that Ross guy's stats... I bet he had well above 240 on both steps...
I think I alread said this I starting my 4th year and will be applying for Anesthesia, it's tough to match for carib grads but it's wide open for US grads and I know of US grads who matched this year with step scores <220 on both steps and one even failed the CS and retook it like a month ago. All matched into University programs. I'll be happy to match anywhere.
Don't get me wrong I had a great time living in the caribbean. it was just amazing. and I am sure at the end I'll end up with what I want and everything will work out, but it would just be at least 30 times easier if I was at a US school.
And even though a lot of times people say the name of the school doesn't matter, to be honest it really does. The name of my undergrad was a huge part in me getting accepted at SGU. If I had the same grades from State University I would have gotten the cold shoulder.
I but you got accepted because of your army background...that carries some weight to make you unique. Also I bet in the South the military background is taken with a little more respect then in some parts of the north.
No honestly applying to US school would have been a waste. My GPA was <3.0, and my MCAT was <25. they weren't much lower but still below those values. The only thing that helped me out was the fact that I was an EMT for 4years, RA for 3years, did some BS research, and got B's in some Grad level biochem classes (which only looked good on paper but were a complete joke). Also I interview pretty well..
I was a huge slacker in undergrad, and was very lucky I got in to SGU. if I were to apply now I probably wouldn't get in.
You should find out that Ross guy's stats... I bet he had well above 240 on both steps...
I think I alread said this I starting my 4th year and will be applying for Anesthesia, it's tough to match for carib grads but it's wide open for US grads and I know of US grads who matched this year with step scores <220 on both steps and one even failed the CS and retook it like a month ago. All matched into University programs. I'll be happy to match anywhere.
Don't get me wrong I had a great time living in the caribbean. it was just amazing. and I am sure at the end I'll end up with what I want and everything will work out, but it would just be at least 30 times easier if I was at a US school.
And even though a lot of times people say the name of the school doesn't matter, to be honest it really does. The name of my undergrad was a huge part in me getting accepted at SGU. If I had the same grades from State University I would have gotten the cold shoulder.
PS: What year are you in and what areas do you want to apply to match?
MCG accepted a Ross person in radiology, which is a sign that things are changing. MCG
usually accepts fmgs in roles like FP, IM, peds, and OB. A rad guy means there is a
surgery coming soon. Apply there, it is a level 1 trauma center and a nice place to do
residency. not too much in the city to miss as you pound away those long hours in the
hospital. Cost of living is awesome so a resident couold live their quite nice in comparison
to NY, Chicago, etc.
Yeah but I am single and don't want to stay single for long... so I'd rather be in a big city where I can meet new people or will have something to do on my days off. Cheap living is nice.. but like I said before money isn't everything, and being young with no family to support, i could care less about cost of living and saving money right now. I'll have plenty of opportunity to save for retirement when I am out of residency, and make a little more than $45K a year.
but i'll definitely be apply there.. and probably to 95% of programs on the East coast.
RussianJoo, thank you very much for your posts. I had no clue. I wish more people would read posts like yours before making such major decisions about where to attend.
bump - curious about what people think about this almost a year later...
nothing changed, if anything it's even harder for caribbean students to get residencies, but we won't know till the results come out in march. opinions about things like this don't change very often, if this was 10 years ago then the opinion might have been different but 1 year is a very short time, considering there was only class graduating and one residency match during this time.
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