Funding question!

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TreeOfLife

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am currently completing a transitional year internship. I have applied to and interviewed at both PGY2 and PGY1 (4yr) programs this year. Several people have mentioned, in passing, that a PGY1 (4yr) program would not be able to get funding for me in the PGY4th year because I will be entering the program, having completed an internship, and already at the PGY2 level. In other words...because I have already completed an internship, they won't be able to get funding for me to complete another one. I have posed this dilemna to many program directors and noone yet has really been able to give me a definitive answer. Are they not able to tell me that they wouldn't rank me because of this? What are the politics around this issue and what might "naive" me need to know about how to approach this subject. For the few programs that I am really interestd in, I'd like to call the PD to discuss the issue but want to know my facts beforehand. Also, who is the governing body over these funding issues...perhaps I could call and pose the question to whomever is giving the funding?

If you've got any advice or information on this, I'd really appreciate it. Also, I hope there aren't any other issues I may not be aware of in re: to being eligible to match into an 07' PGY2 spot considering that I will be completing my internship by June rather than one would typically do. What do most people do when they have that year off, in between? Research maybe? Moonlight? Do programs worry about what you'll do?

Good luck to everyone as you start thinking about your rank lists!!!
 
southerndoc said:
PGY1-4 programs do not receive funding for any of their 4th year residents.

My program is a 1-4 program and the hospital eats the cost of all 4th year residents.


So what you are saying is that regardless of whether I come to a 4 yr program already having done my internship year (hence, I'd be doing another one) the program still eats the cost for my 4th year? Why would programs want to have 4 yr programs then? I notice that several programs have gone from 3 yr programs to 4 yr. Like UPenn for example. Maybe the internal medicine department pays for the 1st yr and then the PM&R dept gets the funding for PGY2-Pgy4?

Huh?
 
actually... some 4 year programs DO get funding; but it depends on the discipline...

basically, whatever you match into defines your funding - transitional (medicine) = 3 years, b/c IM = 3 years (for the most part)...

but transitional (surgery) = 5 years, b/c a surgery residency = 5 years; and anesthesia prelims (the few and far between) get 4 years total funding.

so, finishing off a transitional year, unless the medicine program you are at is a 4 year program, will leave you with only 2 years of funding. either way, a 1-4 would eat 2 years of salary, and a 2-4 only one... as such, PD's have to REALLY like you to justify the budget hit necessary to fund a resident.

good luck. and, i just asked this question of my PD, so if this is wrong, blame him. d=)

-t
 
The idea that "the program will get NO FUNDING" is untrue.

Check out: http://www.aamc.org/advocacy/library/gme/gme0001.htm which as some links on this issue including this nice brochure: http://www.aamc.org/advocacy/library/gme/dgmebroc.pdf. There is also a seemingly newer, version of the pdf here: https://services.aamc.org/Publicati...=version19.pdf&prd_id=88&prv_id=110&pdf_id=19. There seem also to be links to the contact information you seek.

In summary, there are 2 types of funding, Direct and Indirect. These amounts vary based on several factors such as the number of Medicare patients, the average stay of these patients, a "hospital specific amount", the position of the sun, and the temperature in Toledo, Ohio (ok, I made the last 2 up). When you match into a field, you are 'locked' into how many years of full Direct funding the government will give your program. For example, if you match into IM you have 3 years of full Direct funding (they count you 1.0 when they do the math). Once you use up those 3 years, since you are obviously completely useless, you count as half a resident. I'm not kidding, when they do the math you are counted as 0.5. The fact that some specialites require a prelim or transitional year is factored into the system (see question 11).

This maddness is only true for the Direct funding; for the Indirect funding you count as a whole person for as many years as it takes.

The brochure above shows some nice examples of the math. It also mentions that for most hospitals, the Indirect funding "far exceeds" the Direct. It goes on to say, “So as a percentage of the hospital’s total Medicare medical education payment, the financial impact of a resident beyond the initial residency period may be small.”

If anyone can find any fault with the above, please let us/me know.
 
TreeOfLife said:
am currently completing a transitional year internship. I have applied to and interviewed at both PGY2 and PGY1 (4yr) programs this year. Several people have mentioned, in passing, that a PGY1 (4yr) program would not be able to get funding for me in the PGY4th year because I will be entering the program, having completed an internship, and already at the PGY2 level. .....

I did some extensive research on this some time ago. I think the rules are still the same. I'm no longer sure of the exact dates of the changes, listed following, but I think the gist of what I'm about to say is correct.

In the mid '80s the Health Care Finance Administration now known as Centers for Medicare Services (HCFA -> CMS) changed how they paid hospitals for care from a straight fee for service discounted rate to a program called diagnosis related groups. The hospitals complained that the DRGs did not account for the cost of teaching residents. So, the funding for resident training expenses was set up to give the hospitals money out of two pots.

Pot 1 is called the Direct Medical Education funds or DMEA. This covers costs directly associated with resident salaries, malpractice insurance, vacations, benefits, or anything directly identified as a cost of having a resident at the program.

Pot 2 is called the Indirect Medical Education funds or IMEA. This covers the "indirect" costs. These costs are hospital costs that they incur that would not be spent, if there were no residency program at that hospital. These costs cover things like the time faculty spend preparing lectures, teaching rounds and shared office/call space that residents take up, increased costs of patient care by residents, but you can't point to a line in the budget and say this cost belongs to that resident.

This is a common way that government funds contractors. Generally, the DMEA costs are whatever the hospital pays to keep a resident on staff. The IMEA costs are a somewhat complex formula based on the size of the program, the number of medicare patient bed-days, the overall cost of running the hospital, and a dash of accounting magic understood only by those who have attained accounting sainthood.

These funds, at the time I looked into this in detail amounted to about $150k/resident per year, direct and indirect costs at a particular hospital.

Clearly hospitals who use residents to do work, like the idea of having the feds pay for residents. And, the more residents they have, the better off they are financially and having workers available to take care of patients. There was explosive growth of the number of residency positions in US hospitals, far in excess of available graduating medical students to fill them once hospitals understood this system. So, in the mid-1990s the government took out its giant funding pipe pipe wrench and made some adjustments.

The first adjustment was to set an overall cap on residents at the hospitals. Each hospital could only receive a funding for a certain number of residents based on the number of medicare inpatient-bed-days in that hospital. This capped the Indirect reimbursement portion.

The Direct portion was also capped but in a different way. HCFA/CMS capped the length of time it would pay for DMEA. It calculated the length based on the initial field of training. So, if you started out in a surgery program with 5 years of training, you got 5 years of DMEA funding available. If you later switched fields to family practice after a year of surgery, you were golden since you still had 4 years remaining DMEA funds. But, if you switched from FP (3 years) to a longer program like Surgery, at the PGY2 level, you would only get the PGY2 and PGY3 years of DMEA funding. The remaining years of the surgery residency would be on the hospital's ticket for direct expense.

Note that in this case, the hospital would countinue to receive the Indirect costs associated with this resident, so the hit isn't as bad as getting zero dollars, and at least in the primary care specialties, the hospital has reduced attending supervision requirements beyond the first six months of training. So this isn't all bad for the hospital, since residents do generate some revenue for the hospital and they are still far cheaper than hiring an attending physician or hospitalist.

Where it gets really tricky is when a resident does a program that requires a TY followed by a residency, in those residencies that require a TY. I really don't know how that works.

I also think, but am not certain that only LCME accreditted graduates will be eligible for the DMEA, but not the indirect expense reimbursement, so, subject to the patient cap, hospitals will continue to get IMEA reimbursement for this. This is where the popular rumor that FMGs do not get funding springs from. I think the indirects are still substantial even if the direct reimbursement isn't available, so it still is in the hospital's best interest to have their slots filled.

A recent interesting twist on this was to have hospitals who have unused cap spots be able to transfer them to another hospital. Maybe the hospitals will start buying and selling residents. Boy what a picture that brings to mind 🙄

Sigh...like most government programs...it's complicated.
 
3dtp said:
The Direct portion was also capped but in a different way. HCFA/CMS capped the length of time it would pay for DMEA. It calculated the length based on the initial field of training. So, if you started out in a surgery program with 5 years of training, you got 5 years of DMEA funding available. If you later switched fields to family practice after a year of surgery, you were golden since you still had 4 years remaining DMEA funds. But, if you switched from FP (3 years) to a longer program like Surgery, at the PGY2 level, you would only get the PGY2 and PGY3 years of DMEA funding. The remaining years of the surgery residency would be on the hospital's ticket for direct expense.

Note that in this case, the hospital would countinue to receive the Indirect costs associated with this resident, so the hit isn't as bad as getting zero dollars, and at least in the primary care specialties, the hospital has reduced attending supervision requirements beyond the first six months of training. So this isn't all bad for the hospital, since residents do generate some revenue for the hospital and they are still far cheaper than hiring an attending physician or hospitalist.......

That is an excellent summary, thank you.

I just wanted to reiterate that, after you use up your initial years of direct funding, you are not, or are you ever, completely cut off from the Direct funding. As stated in the links above, you count as 0.5 when the hospital does the math. In other words, the worst that ever happens is that your Direct funding is cut in half.

Since direct funding is only half of the funding issue (one of two ‘pots’ of money), and since Indirect funding is not affected by the number of years you are a resident, doing more residency than you are “allowed” should only reduce your funding by around 25%. The reduction could be even less if the statement in the article, that Indirect funding generally “far exceeds" the Direct, is accurate for the program in question.

3dtp said:
Where it gets really tricky is when a resident does a program that requires a TY followed by a residency, in those residencies that require a TY. I really don't know how that works.

The fact that some specialties require a prelim or transitional year is factored into the system (see question 11 in the second link below). In summary, ‘they’ are aware which programs require a transitional/prelim year and allot the # of years accordingly. For example, if go into PM&R, they know that it is either 1+3, or 4 straight years and you are allotted 4 years. If, in the first match you take part in, you match or scramble only into a prelim or transition, you are still a blank slate. If you then reapply and match into or begin training in, say PM&R, you are then allotted 4 years, but have used one of them up.

Again, I would encourage everyone to do your own research on this issue:

http://www.aamc.org/advocacy/library/gme/gme0001.htm

https://services.aamc.org/Publicati...=version19.pdf&prd_id=88&prv_id=110&pdf_id=19
 
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