Future trend of FM?

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forex

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I am hearing rumor (news?) that there will be shortage in FM in future as our healthcare will be more focusing on primary care. And the pay will be higher than IM. Is this true?

It looks in the market that FM is somewhat lower than IM doctors. What is your feeling of FM vs. IM?

What is the best for private practice: FM or IM?

Is FM also qualified for hospitalist job?

Thanks
 
I am hearing rumor (news?) that there will be shortage in FM in future as our healthcare will be more focusing on primary care. And the pay will be higher than IM. Is this true?

It looks in the market that FM is somewhat lower than IM doctors. What is your feeling of FM vs. IM?

What is the best for private practice: FM or IM?

Is FM also qualified for hospitalist job?

Thanks

IMHO
There will be no shortage due to the tremendous influx of IMGs into primary care as well as the influx of lower paid midlevels (NPs/PAs).
FP has no worthwhile fellowships in comparison to IM (cardiology, GI, heme/onc, etc.)
FPs are being locked out of hospitalist and VA jobs in many locations due to a preference for internists.
IM is more flexible and gives you more options.
 
IMHO
There will be no shortage due to the tremendous influx of IMGs into primary care as well as the influx of lower paid midlevels (NPs/PAs).
FP has no worthwhile fellowships in comparison to IM (cardiology, GI, heme/onc, etc.)
FPs are being locked out of hospitalist and VA jobs in many locations due to a preference for internists.
IM is more flexible and gives you more options.

FMs can work as hospitalists.

http://www.aafp.org/fpm/981100fm/cover.html

http://www.thefutureofhealthcare.org/omtres/tracks/hm.htm
 
While there is still some controversy regarding the nature of the physician shortage, the AMA and AAFP certainly recognize a growing shortage of primary care physicians (FP and primary track IM). This largely due to the relatively static compensation for primary care practitioners as well as the increasing debt of medical school graduates. These combined factors (as well as perceived lifestyle limitations, ie on call responsibilities) have influenced many medical school graduates to seek residency training in rads, gas and IM sub-specialties. In addition, the shortages are most evident in rural locations and under served inner urban neighborhoods (ironically and obviously the populations that are most in need of primary care physicians!). It is unfortunate, but to some extent an understandable mindset, that the present trend is to place economic concerns first in choosing a medical specialty.
However, family medicine is a continuation of the core tradition of medical practice. In the near future, the primary care provider is likely to be formally re-installed as the central conductor of a given patient's medical management. If you choose to pursue FM, you will find that you still have many attractive practice options. One can practice as an outpatient-only provider; a full spectrum provider (inpatient/outpatient); with no on-call or with phone call only or with ER call as well; an urgent care physician with set shifts and no call; cover ER (while some facilities prefer EM training, MOST in lieu of an EM physician will prefer FM in this setting as IM has insignificant pediatric and OB experience. Obviously, IM/Peds would be considered equal to FM); practice with or without (most) OB; function as hopitalists (again, some facilities favour IM, however, there are many (possibly the majority) that consider FM and IM as equal for hospitalist positions).
While the compensation ranks among the lowest of physicians, it is still quite good. Also, if you are interested in greater compensation, it can be attained with longer working hours and/or good business acumen.
The major limitations of FM are: limited fellowship opportunities (largely restricted to OB, sports med, geriatrics, preventative med and a few others. This may change in the next few years); minimal academic recognition and access (the research endeavours are largely restricted to soft outcome-based observational studies).
Most importantly, one should ask, is compensation/perceived prestige the major impetus to practice medicine? If you are interested in managing a broad range of patients, getting to know them as more than a vessel containing a visceral organ exhibiting pathology and still have the capacity to have a healthy lifestyle, than FM could offer a rewarding career that is never boring.
 
while herpmed writes a helpful response, i have to think it's written through rose-colored glasses. in decent-sized population center (ie, city with at least a few hundred thousand people) it seems like FM gets mostly lifestyle diseases like cholesterol, diabetes, and hypertension, while the more complicated medicine, pediatric, or gynecologic pathologies are seen by those practitioners. i have tons of respect for FM, but if had thyroid disease or my kid had developmental issues or whatever, i'd want the person with more expertise to handle it. while i believe a FM doc can definately be well-rounded in their knowledge base, i also think there's truth to the adage "practitioner of all, but master of none." the fact that many FMs are hiring PA and ARNPs to see many of their patients speaks volumes to the truth that most FM patients are straightforward enough such that a well-trainined and experienced mid-level provider can meet the majority of the routine healthcare needs, with the FM seeing their own patients and helping out the mid-level on more complex cases. this is a model i've seen a lot of in tampa and its suburbs.

all that said, i do think there's a role for FM in rural settings, where there's not enough business to keep the specialists busy enough to make it financially sustainable to practice. however as the US population gets more urban or suburban, there's simply less of a need for true FM doctors.
 
In my opinion, the shortage is due to residency training spots available. Currently IM spots are twice larger than FM. I am wondering if the scenario will be in future like 10 years ago [when anesthe was not popular]. Then when there is shortage, it becomes hot specialty. In fact, though FMs don't know treatments in detail, they are more knowledgeable overall (because they have to). Patients might expect FMs know all while they don't from others like neurologist (as long as you know neuro, it is OK). So the burden is more on FMs although they are compensated less. :idea:
 
I think Family Medicine could be an incredibly successful and popular specialty, if it actually trained people for "Family Medicine".

Currently it's a hodge podge of difficult hospital rotations, not unlike the third year of medical school, with the guiding philisophy being "if they can learn inpatient, they can then do outpatient", which IMO is patently false. Modern Family Practice graduates do little to no OB/gyn or Surgery. What do they get out of these rotations? For that matter, what do they get out of these busy ICU rotations? What they need to know is learned in the clinic, because even the best hospital inpatient doctors sometimes don't know how to manage HTN, DM, and high cholesterol as well as the average family physician.

If I were to retool Family Medicine, I would make it a straight up 3 years of outpatient medicine. Right now, it's a pretty brutal residency that leads to a low paying job. No wonder few U.S. grads want to go into it. A lot of people out there just want a 8-5 primary care doctor's job. Why not give it to them? It would make Family Medicine competetive again amongst U.S. grads. I would also add outpatient specialty rotations that matter like Dermatology, PM&R, and ENT. A family physician nowadays is much more likely to treat common skin conditions, back pain, and ear pain than deliver babies or perform pancreaticojejunostomies. :hardy:
 
the fact that many FMs are hiring PA and ARNPs to see many of their patients speaks volumes to the truth that most FM patients are straightforward enough such that a well-trainined and experienced mid-level provider can meet the majority of the routine healthcare needs,

All of the "specialty" groups at the academic center where I work use PAs to see patients too... there are gen surg PAs, thoracic surg PAs, infectious disease PAs, urology PAs, cardiology PAs, ob/gyn PAs... do you think the use of midlevels in those fields mean those physician specialists are superfluous too?

Don't fall into the trap of thinking PAs only practice "primary care" medicine. They, too, "specialize". BTW, I'm an MD. 😉
 
All of the "specialty" groups at the academic center where I work use PAs to see patients too... there are gen surg PAs, thoracic surg PAs, infectious disease PAs, urology PAs, cardiology PAs, ob/gyn PAs... do you think the use of midlevels in those fields mean those physician specialists are superfluous too?

Don't fall into the trap of thinking PAs only practice "primary care" medicine. They, too, "specialize". BTW, I'm an MD. 😉

that's a fair point. i agree there's a place in all areas of medicine for midlevels to help make the MD/DO's life easier and to improve patient care. i think Llenroc said what i was trying to say, only much better than i did. i've posted similar arguments in the past, and i agree it's time to end FM and IM as we know them and instead train residents for either outpatient or inpatient medicine. while i know it would be ideal for an outpatient doctor to follow their patient when they're admitted, i don't see it happening in tampa, and i've heard it's similar elsewhere. doctors are primarily either hospitalists or outpatient docs, and even those that do both rarely do them at the same time such that they're rounding inpatient in the AM and outpatient in the PM. it just isn't economical. i agree with Llenroc that there are people who want to focus solely on being great outpatient doctors, so let's allow them to do it. i also think his/her idea to include outpatient derm, ENT, and rehab is a great one; i would also suggest outpatient ortho, and much more in depth psychiatric training since outpatient docs prescribe far more psychoactive medications than psychiatrists because of their sheer numbers.
 
while herpmed writes a helpful response, i have to think it's written through rose-colored glasses. in decent-sized population center (ie, city with at least a few hundred thousand people) it seems like FM gets mostly lifestyle diseases like cholesterol, diabetes, and hypertension, while the more complicated medicine, pediatric, or gynecologic pathologies are seen by those practitioners. i have tons of respect for FM, but if had thyroid disease or my kid had developmental issues or whatever, i'd want the person with more expertise to handle it. while i believe a FM doc can definately be well-rounded in their knowledge base, i also think there's truth to the adage "practitioner of all, but master of none." the fact that many FMs are hiring PA and ARNPs to see many of their patients speaks volumes to the truth that most FM patients are straightforward enough such that a well-trainined and experienced mid-level provider can meet the majority of the routine healthcare needs, with the FM seeing their own patients and helping out the mid-level on more complex cases. this is a model i've seen a lot of in tampa and its suburbs.

While I respect the considered opinions asserted in discussions such as these, I note that you are a MS-4. You must recognize that you do not have a full appreciation of the daily realities of medical practice. After you graduate and complete residency, your perceptions will have a greater breadth. Only after independent practice in the private sector will you develop a pragmatic comprehension that will temper your impressions formed from exposure during training periods. I do not intend these comments as personal affront or insult, rather as comments formulated from experience.
I am a practicing family practitioner/biomedical scientist working in a population far larger than Tampa (specifically, NYC) and certainly do not see anything through "rose colored glasses". Many of my colleagues and I see very complicated patients far beyond "bread and butter" cases. In addition, those "lifestyle diseases" you mention are of critical import to the health care system in the US, produce an enormous economic and public helath burden and, when left unmanaged by a PMD, are often the primary portals to the need for sub-specialty management. Many of the most common causes of morbidity and mortality in the US are traced to uncontrolled HTN, DM and lack of appropriate/effective preventative medical practice. Lifestyle can certainly influence their course, however, HTN and DM, as examples, have strong genetic influence and require aggressive intervention PRIOR to lifestyle impacting their natural history and evolution.
The amount of training, procedural expertise and specific knowledge of various specialties, etc is dependent on the degree of credentialing accomplished during residency and fellowship. In most FM and IM programs, there are a minimum number of expected and required procedures, etc that are required by each ACGME committee in order to successfully complete a given residency. One can choose to seek procurement of increased skill/procedures in a given specialty (ie marrows, endoscopies, etc) and a greater number of routine procedures in order to become more hospitalist-oriented (a greater number than the minimum of central lines, vent management, etc). Many FM programs encourage the procurement of extra skill in a given area of interest. Some programs will look the other way and allow their residents to sleepwalk through the program and meet the bare minimum. This is true of IM as well. The main point is that one cannot generalize on a given practitioner's skills simply in relation to their specialty. Your opinion re "jack of all trades and master of none" has some validity. However, as you meet more practicing FPs you will find that many have areas of strength and lesser areas of familiarity. This is no different than a primary track IM practitioner. In fact, many IM with sub-specialty training (often cards or GI) will attempt to function as both sub-specialists and PMDs, This often is a disservice to their patients as their familiarity with many common presentations in general medicine has waned.
The comment re PAs was well addressed by the poster above. I might add that in NYC MOST IM offices have at least two middle extenders as do almost all sub-specialists. This is due to the need to maintain greater patient numbers in order to achieve greater compensation. This is necessary to meet incerasing expenses, decreasing compensation from medicare/medicaid and the increased malpractice premiums in NY state (raised 16% recently by the NY state legislature). Again, when you actually practice in the private sector these issues will become daily concerns and not transient observations.
By the way, most of my immediate colleagues and I strictly see our own patients and do not use middle level extenders. However, I freely admit, if the current state of primary care compensation continues, we may have to unfortunately change our practice.
 
I don't have a dog in the fight but the above response is well done and insightful.
 
Hermed (or others who know) - as far as procedures that FM can do I am interested in vasectomies. Cool little in-office surgery, for $600-700 cash. I have read 20% are done by FM.

Is it reasonable to consider actually doing this as a FM? Is it potentially worth the increase in malpractice costs?
 
With the risk of bringing down the wrath of the FM forum people at me.. I have to say that the reason FM is un-loved is the way they isolate themselves which is viewed (and probably correctly) as a form of arrogance.

I can quote you several statements like "Oh, I refer to them and they don't refer to me, so I dont need their respect." and of course my current favorite "Academic Medicine is useless to the community."

You can't expect the medical community to look after you if you are not going to earn its respect. Isolation is a bad bad idea. The reimburisement rates and hospital privilages are heavily influenced by other specialties. FM also as a specialty needs to keep improving not just stay stagnant. If you detach yourself from academic medicine and research then you become a stagnant science.

I totally agree with the ambulatory medicine comment. I wish more programs would focus on the art and science of ambulatory medicine but again you can't improve something by detaching yourself from the research and academic part of it.

Just my two cents...
 
Family physicians certainly do perform vasectomies. However, as was correctly stated, the potential for lawsuit is significant. In large metro areas these are almost always left to the purview of urologists. However, as I described in my response above, if you wish to include such procedures in your future practice seek a strong procedure-oriented residency program. Articulate your interests to the PD and almost assuredly you will be encouraged to pursue elective training in the procedure. Once you complete a number sufficient for credentialing in the procedure (the number is usually a set figure representing basic competency in the procedure of choice), you will have filed documentation attesting to your achievement of basic competency in the procedure. This credentialing is absolutely necessary in order to include the procedure in your future practice. Compensation for vasectomies varies a bit, but can be within the range that you indicated.
In regard to the "arrogance" of FP. Again, it is misleading and incorrect to assess a whole specialty on the basis of relatively limited impressions. I have encountered some FP who refer ALL of their patients for damned near everything as they are so insecure or fearful of lawsuits (if you will, the reverse of arrogance). I also know many FP who are highly talented, broadly skilled physicians. Some are very confident, some are very humble and a few could be considered "arrogant". A broad range of personalities in a broadly defined discipline. I have personally met far more "arrogant" individuals in other medical specialties.
As an individual who was a PI in biomedical research for almost 20 years prior to entering medicine, I disagree with the comments re a VOLUNTARY "detachment from academic medicine and research". The AAFP is actively trying to pursue more academic credibility and there certainly is little involvement in BASIC research. This is partly due to the lack of access to sub-specialties and limited presence in medical school departments, large medical centers and a paucity of NIH funding efforts/relevant research initiatives. If your intent was to crticize the perceived lack of interest in basic biomedical research, then I fully agree. Unfortunately, FP still POLITICALLY perceives itself as the community general practitioner without allowing for the evolution of that very role (ie involvement in discovery and progress of the "tools" of the trade, new therapeutics, pathophysiological mechanisms of disease, etc). There are some efforts to move involvement in research beyond the current soft outcome-based efforts as these have very limited utility and are not scientific endeavours. Again, the limited academic credibility is largely asociated with: limited or no access to sub-specialties (this may eventually change), lack of basic biomedical reserach involvement and limited or perfunctory presence in large medical centers. Only the second contributing factor IMO is voluntary. By the way, FM, and most medical practice is not a science (even in the present day). Rather, it is a practiced art with a scientific foundation.
 
function as hopitalists (again, some facilities favour IM, however, there are many (possibly the majority) that consider FM and IM as equal for hospitalist positions).

This doesn't make sense. Categorical IM = 3 years, 75-80% of the time spent on adult inpatient wards/ICU. FM = 3 years, 25-40% of the time devoted to adult inpatient medicine.

Sure FM trained docs can function as hospitalists. I don't understand why the majority of hospitals would consider FM and IM as equal for hospitalist positions.
 
This doesn't make sense. Categorical IM = 3 years, 75-80% of the time spent on adult inpatient wards/ICU. FM = 3 years, 25-40% of the time devoted to adult inpatient medicine.

Sure FM trained docs can function as hospitalists. I don't understand why the majority of hospitals would consider FM and IM as equal for hospitalist positions.

By your line of thinking, what would qualify an IM grad to manage primary care in an outpatient setting vis a vis FP? :laugh:

Sorry, just playing DA while waiting for my next clinic patient
 
Your FM residency plan sounds very much like my PA training. Granted, I did a *little* bit of inpatient (not nearly enough) in my CT surg, IM and endocrine (elective) rotations. I think ignoring inpatient medicine would be a big mistake in training FPs. It's helpful to see really sick patients and in outpatient medicine you see a lot of chronicity but not a lot of really sick.

This is where I really waffle when I try to figure out whether it's worthwhile to go back to med school, since my first love is primary care. Is it really worth it to give up another seven years of my life, a comfortable income, so-so job satisfaction, to make 30-40% more income (but have more control over my earning power, potentially could double my income in a very lucrative practice, less likely), double my student loan debt (at least), and prolong the training phase before I'm really independent? If I wanted to be a specialist it would make sense, hands down, but then if my focus is family medicine, the opportunity costs are huge.

Ugh. Been back and forth on this one the past few years and I still don't know.

🙁

If I were to retool Family Medicine, I would make it a straight up 3 years of outpatient medicine. Right now, it's a pretty brutal residency that leads to a low paying job. No wonder few U.S. grads want to go into it. A lot of people out there just want a 8-5 primary care doctor's job. Why not give it to them? It would make Family Medicine competetive again amongst U.S. grads. I would also add outpatient specialty rotations that matter like Dermatology, PM&R, and ENT. A family physician nowadays is much more likely to treat common skin conditions, back pain, and ear pain than deliver babies or perform pancreaticojejunostomies. :hardy:
 
By your line of thinking, what would qualify an IM grad to manage primary care in an outpatient setting vis a vis FP? :laugh:

Sorry, just playing DA while waiting for my next clinic patient

:meanie: nice one.
 
By your line of thinking, what would qualify an IM grad to manage primary care in an outpatient setting vis a vis FP? :laugh:

Sorry, just playing DA while waiting for my next clinic patient

I completely agree.

And for this reason the majority of IM docs subspecialize or practice inpatient medicine!

FM is stronger at outpatient medicine. And categorical IM is stronger than FM in adult inpatient medicine. For this reason, FM needs to play to its strengths to gain political clout -- or it will continue to be marginalized by our increasingly specialized culture of medicine.
 
Your FM residency plan sounds very much like my PA training. Granted, I did a *little* bit of inpatient (not nearly enough) in my CT surg, IM and endocrine (elective) rotations. I think ignoring inpatient medicine would be a big mistake in training FPs. It's helpful to see really sick patients and in outpatient medicine you see a lot of chronicity but not a lot of really sick.

This is where I really waffle when I try to figure out whether it's worthwhile to go back to med school, since my first love is primary care. Is it really worth it to give up another seven years of my life, a comfortable income, so-so job satisfaction, to make 30-40% more income (but have more control over my earning power, potentially could double my income in a very lucrative practice, less likely), double my student loan debt (at least), and prolong the training phase before I'm really independent? If I wanted to be a specialist it would make sense, hands down, but then if my focus is family medicine, the opportunity costs are huge.

Ugh. Been back and forth on this one the past few years and I still don't know.

🙁

nope. from any perspective, no. i love the fact that i'm going to be a doctor, but i'm 25 and without wife or kids. i couldn't imagine doing this with a family, and wouldn't recommend someone who already has a solid job they enjoy untake this endeavor. your assessments seem dead on. do the long term math and i bet that the loss of income for 7 years plus the debt will not be recovered by doing primary care.

and thanks to ya'll for backing my outpatient versus inpatient training models. it's what ends up happening now anyway, so why not do it right? there should be 3 different tracks where there currently is FM and IM. 1) outpatient primary care 2) future hospitalist 3) future IM subspecialist (who should only have to do 2 years of IM-type residency before starting fellowship in card, GI, heme/onc, ID, etc).
 
Herpmed, thank you for the insight. Any idea how much adding vasectomies to the list of procedures raises malpractice?

Also, what about freezing actinic keratoses. When I did my derm rotation I found Medicare paid something like $210 for the first 3 lesions. Seemed like pretty good reimbursement (even after buying the nitrogen and containers) - but is that just what it reimburses board certified dermatologists? Does it pay the same from Medicare when a FM doctor does the freezing?
 
Yes, did TONS of these in primary care. (And yes, got reimbursed handsomely even at the 85% PA rate....or rather, my clinic got reimbursed.)
I also did plenty of punch biopsies of suspicious lesions. It's a snap and breaks up the day. Caught many SCCs and the occasional melanoma. Derm experts say we don't diagnose enough melanomas, probably because we don't biopsy them. It all pays.

Herpmed, thank you for the insight. Any idea how much adding vasectomies to the list of procedures raises malpractice?

Also, what about freezing actinic keratoses. When I did my derm rotation I found Medicare paid something like $210 for the first 3 lesions. Seemed like pretty good reimbursement (even after buying the nitrogen and containers) - but is that just what it reimburses board certified dermatologists? Does it pay the same from Medicare when a FM doctor does the freezing?
 
"This doesn't make sense. Categorical IM = 3 years, 75-80% of the time spent on adult inpatient wards/ICU. FM = 3 years, 25-40% of the time devoted to adult inpatient medicine".

"Sure FM trained docs can function as hospitalists. I don't understand why the majority of hospitals would consider FM and IM as equal for hospitalist positions".

It probably doesn't make sense to you as you are also judging all members of the entire specialty from your limited exposure as a resident. As I indicated above, in most FM residency programs one can pursue the procurement of additional training in, or indeed focus on, hospitalist practice. Also, one can pursue a fellowship in hospitalist medicine. I am surprised that you are seemingly unaware that many rural hospitals are unopposed and run by the family medicine service. Further, as was correctly stated by the contributor above, the emphasis in IM vs FM does not strictly define the individual's skill acquisition, nor their capacity to function competently in either venue. About half of the graduates from my program function as hospitalists. The "percentage" of IP/OP in a given program depends on that program's approach to GME. Agreed, many FM programs stress OP. However, this is variable and, as I have observed in my experience (and therefore opined here), is open to the career development of a given resident. Citing strict percentages of OP vs IP is at best a rough approximation and at worst a misleading perception.
Another likely reason that this doesn't make sense to you is that you are not a recruitor for a hospital. I can attest that such recruitors are primarily interested in the expected hospitalist-appropriate credentialing and experience offered by a given candidate and not whether they are FM or IM.
FM is in the top three specialties requested by locum tenens and perm recruitors. Pretty high demand for a "marginalized specialty".
While an important component of FM is the awareness of when and when not to refer, I also would recommend you consider the "increasingly specialized culture of medicine" with a bit more caution and humility. This is one of the contributing factors to our poor return for "health care" dollars and the increasing trend of unnecessary procedures.
Doowai, I am not certain of the range of increased premiums associated with performing vasectomies (this is defined by geographic trends and occurrence-rates). In some areas (eg Nassau Co NY) it is likely to be substantial. The rate for most derm procedures (again, providing BC and appropriate procedure credentialing) are comparable. However, just as an aside, I personally feel that FP should think long and hard before getting involved with botox and other cosmetic procedures. You can certainly obtain further info re this by contacting the AAFP. They likely can refer you to specific references and or contacts that can clarify the specifics.
 
Another likely reason that this doesn't make sense to you is that you are not a recruitor for a hospital. I can attest that such recruitors are primarily interested in the expected hospitalist-appropriate credentialing and experience offered by a given candidate and not whether they are FM or IM.
FM is in the top three specialties requested by locum tenens and perm recruitors. Pretty high demand for a "marginalized specialty".

I understand. BUT -- For hospitalist positions now, supply < demand. AND I understand that each person is an individual with strengths/weaknesses/etc. I was simply comparing the recent residency grads of respective programs.

FM is NOT marginalized now. It is in danger given the way our medical culture is going -- unless we have a "primary care" revolution...

I went to a med school where FM was one of the most powerful departments. I did many of my clinical rotations at a FM dominated "rural" 200-bed hospital. Some of my opinion is informed, though I do not have years of anecdotal experience. I harbor little ill-feeling toward FM (though I resent that the subtext of my education was that "specialization" is BAD and that FM has a monopoly on virtue) but agree that it needs to isolate itself less from the academic community and focus on its strengths: preventive med, outpatient medicine, and even public health.
 
However, just as an aside, I personally feel that FP should think long and hard before getting involved with botox and other cosmetic procedures. .

I hear you on this. In my last month of surgery rotations, the general surgeon looked into doing botox etc - it raised her malpractice so much it was not worth it.

A FP program I interviewed at this month did quite a bit of procedures - had a great seperate facility for procedures, seperate from the clinic. It was a building used for neurosurgery previously. I asked the PD specifically about vasectomies - he said it is only likely that in a 3 year residency I would only get to do about 15 V's realistically - but said that would qualify someone to do it outpatient in that state at least. I think he said currently 50 c-sections are needed to be certified in that, and it would be no problem . What do you think about those numbers - adequate?
 
I wouldn't want you cutting on my pipes if you'd only done 15 of them as a resident. It's not like it's a tough procedure but if you do it wrong and someone gets chronic testicular pain or there is a pregnancy, you better be willing/able to handle that in some way.
 
Doowai, I think that Pir8DeacDoc said it well. Fifteen procedures are borderline at best. However, if you are committed to attaining competency in vasectomies, you could inquire re the plausibility of devoting elective time to procurement of that skill. For example, taking an elective month in a busy urology practice could add significant numbers/experience (you must confirm PRIOR to declaring such an elective that your urology supervisor would be willing and available to teach/supervise your performance of the procedure. This is not always the case).
The minimum number of C/S is currently 50 (this may be raised in the near future). Again, IMO and experience, if you want to tread that litiginous field, dive deeply into your OB rotations and participate in as many as you can. I would recommend that you pursue an OB fellowship after completing your residency. There are several rural-based fellowships that specifically stress surgical OB and high-risk management.
Regardless, I would stress that if you are committed to learning these procedures, by all means pursue them. You are clearly aware of the potential for legal ramifications. Just remain cognizant that you will require extensive and well-documented training (be sure to collect those cert cards with appropriate signatures!) in order to achieve competence.
 
For example, taking an elective month in a busy urology practice could add significant numbers/experience (you must confirm PRIOR to declaring such an elective that your urology supervisor would be willing and available to teach/supervise your performance of the procedure. This is not always the case).
......... Just remain cognizant that you will require extensive and well-documented training (be sure to collect those cert cards with appropriate signatures!) in order to achieve competence.

All the programs I am interviewing at have computerized documentation regarding procedures. I am not sure how it works yet at programs that do not have computerized documentation of what procedures a resident does yet.

How soon into a residency year do you have to declare an elective and how hard is it to change what elective you want to do?

How many V's would you recommend to consider actually doing them?

As a FP, after residency, how reasonable is it to sort of act as a first assist for a urologist during some V's (even though its really not a procedure needing much if any 1st assisting).


If I do one on myself does it count...?
 
In programs using EMR/documentation, a credentialing chart will be generated and corresponding documentation of procedures will be scanned and stored.
Don't worry about the electives initially. Most programs begin electives in the PGY-2 year (1 month during PGY-2 and 2-3.5 months in the PGY-3 year). If you choose a given elective at that time and shortly thereafter change your mind, you could change your declared elective provided you inform all involved at least a month prior to the start date (this may vary in different places).
The minimum number is quite subjective and operator-specific. Some practitioners procure and demonstrate competency with fewer than others. In my experience, around 25-30 is reasonable.
Again, the best approach is to locate a urologist willing to teach and supervise you during an elective month. You might express an interest in ongoing participation after your graduation. This could facilitate something of a brief "apprenticeship" whereas you could glean added skill in the procedure of choice. Obviously, this could enhance your independent performance of the procedure. The proviso is that this may be difficult to arrange. A discussion with your prospective PD could aid your pursuit of competency in this regard.
As for "auto-vasectomization"....nah, not a particularly good idea....unless there really is a basis for "bicephalic autonomy"......
 
Currently it's a hodge podge of difficult hospital rotations, not unlike the third year of medical school, with the guiding philisophy being "if they can learn inpatient, they can then do outpatient", which IMO is patently false.

I am not sure that is the philosophy behind it. Outpatient FM is responsible, among other things, for continuity of care. Many FP patients , at some point, return to a practice after being in-patients. The FP doctor needs to understand everything that was done and why, in order to continue the patients care in the most appropriate manner as they leave the hospital, and in the future as their conditions changes. Understanding in-patient is very useful for out-patient, in helping patients as they shift back to out-patients. Knowing where they have been helps a doctor understand where they are now, and where they are going.
 
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