G. Surgery Programs: The Diamnods in the Rough

[daredevil_2010]

I'm sure a lot of current 3rd years are thinking about what programs to apply to. We all know about the big time programs (MGH, Duke, Hopkins), but what about the "Diamonds in the rough"? Those programs that you interviewed at and fell in love with... but could only match at one.

Here's my list:
1) George Washington - Brand new hospital. Great Program Director. Residents are SUPER happy.

2) Medical University of South Carolina (MUSC) - Super friendly faculty (except perhaps the chair). Located in beautiful Charleston. Great blend of Academics and clinical work. New hospital on the way.

3) Mayo Clinic @ Jacksonville - Super one-on-one with the Attendings. Residents were SUPER happy. Has the "Mayo" label. Only interviewed 28 candidates.

Clearly, these are not "power" programs. But for people who might not be interested in HUGE academic centers, or just don't know what they want... I found these three programs to far exceed my expectations.

Any other "diamonds in the rough" in other U.S. regional areas? I think I cornered the S.E. United States. Opinions on my three choices?

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[Foxxy Cleopatra]

I've got some-

1. The Medical Center of Central Georgia. I felt so bad that this program didn't fill because I thought they were a great bunch of people with a strong clinical program for training general surgeons. However, you couldn't take 2 years out for research (residents do a few months during 2nd year in the lab), and the big thing is it is in Macon. They interviewed only 25 people, so maybe that with a combination of location is why they didn't fill. I thought they seemed very focused on resident training (both skills and didactics) and the experience seemed very well-rounded. I thought very highly of all the faculty and residents that I met and hope that next year goes well for them. I just couldn't deal with the idea of living in Macon for 5 years!

2. Carolinas Medical Center (though this one is probably better known.) Had some very unique features such as the opportunity to go to Costa Rica during 4th year to get more experience with gastric carcinoma, great laparoscopic experiecne, great people, residents seemed successful in getting fellowships they wanted. Plus, Charlotte would be a pretty nice place to live.

 

[droliver]

I think for academic programs "below the radar" of many in the country, Wake Forest & University of Florida are superior programs. UT-Memphis is an interesting one as well, especially for the academic trauma work they do (arguably they have most influential work going on right now IMO)

I'd also like to plug the Baptist Medical Center program in Birmingham,AL. Excellent clinical program for general surgery in two nice hospitals. My father has been clinical faculty @ one of the hospitals for 30 years & they have put out a lot of quality people. There is a chance that this program could merge with UAB eventually though as the two health systems are in early merger discussions

 

[Celiac Plexus]

Univ. of South Fla.

Smallish program with great ancillary services, early operative xperience, and fairly happy residents. Tampa has great weather, tons of beach, and reasonable cost of living. 2 things about this program that I really noticed was 1. the faculty is relatively young, and most of 'em come from Wash U, Duke, Hopkins,... They seemed pretty interesting during the interview. 2. If you are in to surgical oncology they have the Moffat cancer center which is highly regarded and a premier surg onc research hospital. I think this program started in the 70s so it doesn't have much tradition but I think it will become more known in the future.


Also UConn... Just loved these guys. Super cool attendings, encourage research anywhere you want to do it, great fellowship placement especially in CT, and surgical oncology (have a great relationship with MSK where they have placed a couple of fellows recently). Hospitals are clean, modern, and very busy. Every resident whom I spoke with gave the program an emphatic thumbs up. Not a powerhouse as far as rep goes, but a nice, respected, sleeper program.

 

[daredevil_2010]

USF: I did not like this program. I felt the Residents were a tad sub-par. The hospital was 20 minutes away as were the VAs. Too much time traveling. I also felt the faculty I interviewed with were a bit sketchy. Can't beat the Tampa Bay area though.

Wake Forest: I also liked this program. Hard to consider it a diamond in the rough though... since it seems to be pretty well known.

UCONN: I was going to interview there but I decided against it. I don't know how good their program is, but it's too far north for me. I also I have spent a great deal of time in the Hartford area... and it's one I rather not spend anymore time in. There's nothing in Connecticut except casinos.

UF: I really liked this program. the new chairman from UNC was very nice. I felt the Residents were strong and hospital was very nice. I was a bit weary of the Gaineville area since it's a "college town". I just didn't want to spend my next 5 years in bars and stuff. I needed a city with a bit more culture. Probably the biggest program on the rise in Florida is Miami.

 

[Celiac Plexus]

Thanks for adding nothing to this thread daredevil.

 

[Foxxy Cleopatra]

CP-

That's interesting about USF. 2 of my friends that interviewed there also were really surprised and impressed with it- they liked the chair, residents, and you can't beat Tampa if you like water and sun.

I also thought MCG (Augusta) was making some positive changes as well. Nice chairman, plus they hired 2 great guys from MD-Anderson- a plus for those interested in surgical oncology. However, Augusta did not look like a very good town unless you were settled down and married.

 

[daredevil_2010]

Originally posted by Celiac Plexus
Thanks for adding nothing to this thread daredevil.

I guess I'm supposed to agree with everything you write. Sorry, but i won't. This isn't a propaganda thread. It's for a medical students to find smaller high quality program. If we lists positves AND Negatives... they can decide for themselves.

I restate my feelings of USF: I did not like it. I know one person who graduated from USF med-school and he didn't even bother applying to the General Surgery Program. I have talked to several people about USF... and they didn't like it. HOWEVER, i did talk to some to others and they liked it very much. The biggest drawback concerning this program is the DECENTRALIZATION of the campus. Also, Tampa Bay Hospital almost wen bankrupt several years back.

UCONN: Like I said, I don't know a thing about this program. However, I do know Hartford quite well. It's not a place I would want to live in or even visit.

 

[Thewonderer]

Originally posted by Celiac Plexus
Thanks for adding nothing to this thread daredevil.

celiac plexus sounds like he has the personality of a general surgeon already....

 

[droliver]

Celiac plexus,

I think a very common complaint with USF is the large amount of driving you're forced to do around Tampa & out to the St. Petersburg VAMC. As someone pointed out, Tampa General has also had very hard times with financial sustainability (their problem was featured on a 60 Minutes piece a few years ago). Several of their clinical divisions have lost their training programs, including Orthopedics (I think a number of years ago now) & Plastic Surgery (despite several very famous names in academic Plastic Surgery on staff) in the last # of years and a very popular chairman was run out which worries you a bit, although what affect this has on your present general training I don't know. The Moffet Cancer Center is a very nice place, but they have a very good Surgical Oncology Fellowship which has to affect the oppurtunities available to you as a resident (I hear the same thing about MD-Anderson & the affect on the UT-Houston residents experience)

 

[Celiac Plexus]

droliver: Now that you say the stuff about the plastics dept, I seem to recall that there was a resident there who had started an integrated slot, but had been forced in to a categorical slot when the plastics program exploded. Not cool for that resident. I also see your point about how th residency can be affected by the surg onc influence. Good point, and one I hadn't thought of.

 

[maxheadroom]

When the plastics program went belly-up a couple of years ago the residents got screwed. Most were sent off to other programs, but many had to accept positions lower than their training (PGY-5 resident taking a PGY-4 spot). Not sure if USF was a true integrated program or if they were just a coordinated/combined program.

I applied to both plastics and gensurg. Matched plastics.

On my gensurg interviews, I was surprised at the number of big name places where the experience didn't see to match some of the lower tier programs.

Big, huge GenSurg diamond (only one I ranked) was U. of Utah. Outstanding operative numbers, very complete experience except for thoracic oncology (not many smokers in Utah), lots of people going to very good fellowships. Residents very happy, even find a few days a year to hit Alta/Park City/Snowbird/Solitude (need I say more?).

 

[mbash]

some others in no particular order

1. allegheny general hospital
2. UF- Shands
3. henry ford



I interviewed at GW and didnt like it too much. I didnt even rank it in the end. BUT Paul Lin was a nice guy, very interested in teaching, and had an outstanding reputation in and out of the OR as per the residents. Their chair went to Georgetown, I think.


-pba

 

[daredevil_2010]

Originally posted by mbash
some others in no particular order

1. allegheny general hospital
2. UF- Shands
3. henry ford



I interviewed at GW and didnt like it too much. I didnt even rank it in the end. BUT Paul Lin was a nice guy, very interested in teaching, and had an outstanding reputation in and out of the OR as per the residents. Their chair went to Georgetown, I think.


-pba

I too interviewed at Allegheny. I really liked the program. This is a definate "Diamond". Pittsburgh is a bit too North for me... so I ended up ranking them 7th or so, but if I was from the area... I would have ranked them much higher.

UF: I really liked UF too. Great program. New chairman from UNC. Of all the Florida programs, I ranked it the highest; however, I wasn't too thrilled with living in a "college" town.


What didn't you like about GW? The small size? It being a 6 year program? Dr. Lin is a very unusual guy. He asked some very odd questions: Can it rain frogs? (My reply, "huh?". His reply, "Well they say it rains cats and dogs.")

 

[daredevil_2010]

Originally posted by maxheadroom


Big, huge GenSurg diamond (only one I ranked) was U. of Utah. Outstanding operative numbers, very complete experience except for thoracic oncology (not many smokers in Utah), lots of people going to very good fellowships. Residents very happy, even find a few days a year to hit Alta/Park City/Snowbird/Solitude (need I say more?).

Utah is a great program. Hard to call it a diamond since it already has a very well known rep as being a top caliber General Surgery program.

 

[LaCirujana]

Originally posted by maxheadroom

Big, huge GenSurg diamond (only one I ranked) was U. of Utah. Outstanding operative numbers, very complete experience except for thoracic oncology (not many smokers in Utah), lots of people going to very good fellowships. Residents very happy, even find a few days a year to hit Alta/Park City/Snowbird/Solitude (need I say more?).

Yay!!
Someone else recognizes my "home" program for its true value! I've tried to promote Utah's gen. surg program whenever possible--I'm glad others are taking notice. The ONLY reason I left for residency is because I felt I had to "go to grow" and I ultimately want to go back and practice there (the new critical care pavillion should be finished just in time for me to be wrapping up my trauma/critical care fellowship.😀 )

 

[daredevil_2010]

Anybody else interview are have opinions on:

1) MUSC
2) Mayo @ Jacksonville
3) GW
4) Alleghany
5) UF
6) Utah
7) USF
8) Conn
9) others...

 

[hotbovie1]

My votes, in no particular order

U CONN: Residents were super happy, and had a lot to say about the quality of teacing in the OR. Also the PD is very resident friendly, very concerned about finding ways to make the whole educational experience better. Attendigns get evaluated by residents and if there are consistent problems they are fixed or the residents are pulled from that servcie. Lots of educational stuff is on the net, and all residents are given a computer.

Indiana University: Again, I found that the residents were very happy, chiefs espeically said they felt like they had gotten great training (even said they would be able to get through a Whipple independently). Awesome facilites, all hospitals except one in walking distance of each other, with a monorail connecting the last one. They had a nice little skills lab with computer simulators for phlebotomy, all the endoscopy stuff and are just adding a laparoscopic one.

UT Memphis: a trauma powerhouse (with more time spent on trauma than any other program I visited, a dedicated trauma section of the ER, TICU and trauma ORs, all within steps of each other) and all round good program. For those interested in trauma, Timothy Fabian (chair) is a name you need to know. This is a program with lots of autonomy... residents emerge quite skilled and confident.

UMDNJ NewarK: another big trauma player (one chief I talked to said he had done 80 trauma cases). Again, residents were very happy and confident. Faculty seemed very invested in resident well being. Most free goodies of any program... annual book for all, loupes, send PBY 3 to ACS meeting and chiefs to a meeting of their choice (usually they pick a board review course). They also had more out of OR training for interns than any place I visited.. skills labs, instrument demos and the like. THeir chair wrote a book on basic surgical technique..Tools of the Trade and Rules of the road.

 

[triathlete411]

UF - I interviewed there and loved it. The chair is from UNC and I think he will do great things. They are weak in trauma like Foxxy said, but that can be a plus. As an aside, there were quite a few resident couples, which I hadn't seen at other programs.

Wake Forest - a strong program. Dr. Meredith (the chair) is a fantastic guy. I just couldn't fathom living in Winston-Salem.

I started out this whole interview process knowing where I wanted to go (or thinking I did.) UW-Madison and UVa made me take a real hard look at UNC, but in the end, I chose where I knew I would be happy.

I wish I had looked at some West coast programs. I have heard that Santa Barbara Cottage and Swedish in Seattle are excellent. Exempla St. Joseph's in Denver is also supposed to be a "diamond in the rough."

 

[daredevil_2010]

UT-Memphis: I don't know anything about this program, but I heard it has a rep of being pretty malignant. I talked to a 4th year student from there and I believe he agreed. Now if you want awesome Trauma experience you have to go to either Maryland (Shock Trauma) or Miami (Ryder Trauma). I don't think you will appreciate what a Tauma service is until you go to these two places. That don't have dedicated Trauma ER space... they have separate 4-5 story buidlings that have their own CT scanners, Radiology Teams, 40 Bed TICUs, Resus bays, Heli Pad, ORs, etc... These two programs consistently rank the top 2 programs for Trauma. I know Miami has over 35-45% penetrating Trauma. Most places have about 15-25%.

MUSC - I did interview there and talked to some current medical students. The rep before I got there was that the Chairman was a "difficult" guy. They were right. However, I found all the other faculty that I meant to be nice... almost too unbelievably nice. It was like talking to my Uncles. I pretty much confirmed this with current med students: Almost all the faculty are super nice... except the chairman (Duke trained).

 

[triathlete411]

I also interviewed at MUSC and found the chairman to be very cordial. He rearranged my interview schedule once he found out I was interested in CT surgery and he sent me a nice post-interview note.

 

[phil123]

I would stay clear of the University of Chicago Gen Surg Program. The universitie's other surgical programs are facing problems too and apparently the gen surg program is no different---MALIGNANCY is the theme there. Anyway, I can care less b/c I'm not going into gen surg, but I thought I would pass along what I've heard. P.S. After the recent hype about the program's big pitfalls, it has actually become one of the easier ones to get into since you have low tiered med students (who would love to get anything) applying and the higher tiered ones going to better programs.

 

[gabbydoggie]

i did a month rotation at mayo jacksonville. ranked it number 3. wouldve been happy there. the residents are very happy. they treat you really well.

I ranked Mayo Scottsdale number 2. Was great. did a month rotation there. Very sweet program.

My number one was Scott & White Clinic in Temple, Tx. I love this program and am so happy to be starting my internship here July 1. Please check us out. You'll not find a better place!!!

 

[dr.evil]

I have to 2nd gabbydoggie that the true "diamond in the rough" (or at least in the south/midwest) is Texas A&M's program in Temple, TX. Although I'm not there, I ranked this program highly and thought highly of the faculty and hospital. If you can live in Temple (and as a surgery resident I guarantee you can), you should interview there.

Congrats gabbydoggie. One of my old classmates will be a 2nd year GS resident there next year.