General Rant about shadowing

[Abulcasis]

in general though, i think shadowing is over-rated and the utility of it is rather limited. i don't think someone needs to do like 400 hrs of it to get the gist of what it means to be a doctor.

That's a first. Are you sure it's over-rated and its use is limited? I'm actually pretty excited about physician shadowing because it gives you a feel of what's going on in the hospital, how a physician should react to certain situations, and also you can learn a lot from the physician, his ethics, etc.

I think its function is valuable. But as for the 400 hour thing, people do that to enhance their application

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[Kaustikos]

So I've asked over 4 doctors to shadow...politely gave them a sort of resume of where I am in school and my achievements etc. All of them seemed almost insulted and said "you should not shadow until you are a medical student" WTF!!! I was so irate...if I end up like that when I'm a doctor I'll hate myself. I ended up shadowing this surgeon a little only because he is a family friend...pretty cheap way of finding someone to shadow but whatever. I asked my friends how they find doctors to shadow and EVERYONE said either that parents are doctors or they had close family friends who were docs...meanwhile I get the shaft whenever I try to cold-call. Seriously I'm to the point where I'm embarrassed to ask a doc to shadow because all have laughed at me so far...

You should go to the DO school secondary sites and print out their "recommendation letter requirement" and slap it in their faces

 

[JacksonInTheBox]

Hey

It also might not be a bad idea to find a doctor who is an alum of your school, thats how I got started out. He in turn suggested others who would be more than willing to let me shadow.

Also I know that many larger hospitals, at least in Southern Cal where Im from, have programs made for the purpose of getting undergrads shodowing experience. The one national entity that I have worked with is Kaiser Permanente, at two different facilites, so other facilities might have similar programs. Many KP doctors that I have worked with also do clinical research so maybe you can ask about that as well, if you are interested.

 

[htownpremie]

That's a first. Are you sure it's over-rated and its use is limited? I'm actually pretty excited about physician shadowing because it gives you a feel of what's going on in the hospital, how a physician should react to certain situations, and also you can learn a lot from the physician, his ethics, etc.

I think its function is valuable. But as for the 400 hour thing, people do that to enhance their application

yes, i am "sure it's over-rated and its use is limited." i believe it is limited in the sense that any sort of learning or knowledge one might acquire through shadowing now with the premed level of education (in the scientific sense) and perspective that he/she has on health care systems is going to be hugely overshadowed by the actual experience and perspective you gain in rotations as a third and fourth year and as a resident who is actually part of a health care providing team. it's a different issue if you're trying to pick out what specialty you want to go into--one of the main reasons why medical students shadow.

i mean folks who shadow might come out having an inkling of what it's like to be a doctor, but you'll never know what it's like to be responsible for a patient unless you actually are. i really do believe, and someone please correct me if i'm wrong, that in most cases anything you could possibly learn as a shadowing premed is going to be a drop in the bucket. the current medical education system isn't going to rely on your premed shadowing experience to teach you how to be an excellent doctor or a "good" one for that matter.

you can learn what it's like to be in a hospital by volunteering, at least that way you're doing something useful, and i think that definitely counts as meaningful clinical experience. you can learn about ethics and what doctors think by reading JAMA or editorials in the NYTs. listen to the MD station on satellite radio if you have that.

OP was writing to express frustration about the lack of readily available shadowing opportunities. the truth of the matter is that you don't really need them to be a good doctor, or to be educated about the field, or even to do well in the application process.

 

[229141]

Honestly I loved shadowing the few times I was able to do it. Its SO much better than volunteering in the hospital...I talk to patients as much as I can in the hospital but the nurses are like HEY don't talk to them! Even though I'm keeping elderly comfortable after surgery..wow. They just told me to start filing paper and replacing hand sanitizer haha. Oh well I still talk to patients and keep them company

 

[229141]

you can learn what it's like to be in a hospital by volunteering, at least that way you're doing something useful, and i think that definitely counts as meaningful clinical experience.

You do realize most hospitals make you do stuff completely non-medical and rarely like you to speak to patients right? I mean even my friends who went on their glorified mission trips to save Africa..all they did was take kids heights and weights at a clinic...

 

[htownpremie]

Honestly I loved shadowing the few times I was able to do it. Its SO much better than volunteering in the hospital...I talk to patients as much as I can in the hospital but the nurses are like HEY don't talk to them! Even though I'm keeping elderly comfortable after surgery..wow. They just told me to start filing paper and replacing hand sanitizer haha. Oh well I still talk to patients and keep them company

i mean that kind of sucks that that was your volunteer experience. they basically set me loose on 3-4 floors each day that i go, and i can chat with the patients all i want.

do you get to talk to your doctor's patients while you're shadowing?

i did happen to follow a doctor around for a day, and she was basically looking at growth charts, asking questions about whether or not the babies were stacking blocks, and giving orders for flu vaccines and antibiotics all day. it's repetitive. lots of jobs are like that, and i'd say a lot of doctor's jobs are like that too.

 

[229141]

do you get to talk to your doctor's patients while you're shadowing?

Yeah absolutely. The times I shadowed this summer I had to go to the patient in pre-op, get them to sign the consent for me to watch their surgery. Most of the times I was there with the patient in pre-op talking to him/her, then went with them as they got wheeled into the OR, watched the surgery, and sometimes they even let me hang out as they woke up in post-op. It was GREAT patient exposure and it meant a lot to me as corny as it sounds lol.

 

[htownpremie]

not corny at all, sounds awesome. when i shadowed, i was just running behind the doctor all day... she'd spend about 5 minutes with each patient and she had appointments running the entire day.

i mean i'm not dinging on how much fun shadowing is or how much patient contact you get. i just think if you find the right volunteer opportunity, it's just as good if not better.

 

[229141]

not corny at all, sounds awesome. when i shadowed, i was just running behind the doctor all day... she'd spend about 5 minutes with each patient and she had appointments running the entire day.

i mean i'm not dinging on how much fun shadowing is or how much patient contact you get. i just think if you find the right volunteer opportunity, it's just as good if not better.

Yeah I agree, it differs for everyone. The volunteering situation in the hospital here sucks most of the time...but just have to make the best of it!

 

[bluesmd]

i disagree. i had a LOT of fun shadowing doctors and i do believe you can learn stuff. you see how the different doctors interact with patients and what personalities elicit more responses from the patients and stuff. lots of patient interaction stuff i believe is important and can be learned from shadowing. at least exposed to anyways. also, i got to watch some really cool surgeries. some people might not like it, but i would definitely recommend doing it. no, you won't get something big like a publication to put on your resume but if you enjoy it do it. i've already gotten in but i'm planning to do some more shadowing this quarter.

 

[htownpremie]

i never really said that you wouldn't learn anything, i just think that what you "learn" shadowing is ultimately going to be inconsequential in comparison to what you learn in actual med school. sdners seem to think that shadowing is essential to a strong application, and it really isn't. i've gotten in too (to 8 schools no less), and i had 0 shadowing on my amcas.

 

[Nanon]

I definitely know how you feel OP. Is anyone else getting the "HIPAA" response? I'm not exactly sure how I'm supposed to shadow if every physician seems to think it's illegal

For a lot of hospitals, the whole notion of shadowing is becoming an ethics issue, for the reason stated above. As a volunteer coordinator, I've found this to be one of my biggest frustrations. Almost all of the docs are fine with shadowing, but everyone else is freaked out about a) patient privacy, b) risk management, and c) adding another layer of invasiveness to the patient experience.

Btw, I've been working for the surgery dept. for 2 years as an analyst, and have been signed off w/ risk management, but have yet to watch a surgery because of these very issues. So, I can see the patient on my own before and after surgery and ask them weird, invasive questions, but I can't be in the OR.

Volunteer or do clinical research or get an EMT license and just TALK to doctors. IMO, the real function of shadowing is to figure out what doctor's do, which can only really be done by having pretty in-depth conversations with them.

 

[229141]

For a lot of hospitals, the whole notion of shadowing is becoming an ethics issue, for the reason stated above. As a volunteer coordinator, I've found this to be one of my biggest frustrations. Almost all of the docs are fine with shadowing, but everyone else is freaked out about a) patient privacy, b) risk management, and c) adding another layer of invasiveness to the patient experience.

Btw, I've been working for the surgery dept. for 2 years as an analyst, and have been signed off w/ risk management, but have yet to watch a surgery because of these very issues. So, I can see the patient on my own before and after surgery and ask them weird, invasive questions, but I can't be in the OR.

Volunteer or do clinical research or get an EMT license and just TALK to doctors. IMO, the real function of shadowing is to figure out what doctor's do, which can only really be done by having pretty in-depth conversations with them.

Yes yes yes but we all know that the ADCOMS want to see X number of shadow hours...not having any shadowing on your app would look bad in my opinion. I for one am not willing to take a chance on not doing it

 

[htownpremie]

Yes yes yes but we all know that the ADCOMS want to see X number of shadow hours...not having any shadowing on your app would look bad in my opinion. I for one am not willing to take a chance on not doing it

i have 0 shadowing on my app; hasn't affected me as far as i can tell. although like you said earlier, if it's fun, you enjoy it, you get to actually do something.. go for it.

 

[229141]

i have 0 shadowing on my app; hasn't affected me as far as i can tell.

Glad to hear, I just don't feel like taking a chance on leaving anything out...I'm paranoid

 

[Nanon]

I got into a DO school w/ no shadowing of any doctor, osteopathic or otherwise. During the interview, they asked me what I knew about being a DO, given that I hadn't shadowed. I told them that I hadn't shadowed formally, but I'd talked to a few DO's and many MD's through my job and my volunteer work, and had noticed differences in their approach to their patients, etc. That seemed to be fine, again because it satisfied the whole point of shadowing.

In any case, follow my previous advice. It will get you a shadow, I promise!

 

[caliche231]

do you need to attach any type of shadowing proof into your amcas application? If any, what and how.

 

[olemissbabydoc]

I just sent out TONS of letters to the physicians I was interested in shadowing (20+), and the first 5 specialties or so I heard back from is where I went.

I took the letters to the offices and left them with the nurse. If you do this enough, SOMEONE will remember being in your shoes and will let you shadow.

Keep trying!

 

[LizzyM]

do you need to attach any type of shadowing proof into your amcas application? If any, what and how.

No.


If you shadow one physician, you can list their name, phone number, etc along with the month/year and number of hours per week on the AMCAS application but this isn't necessary.

 

[hermit]

Yes yes yes but we all know that the ADCOMS want to see X number of shadow hours...not having any shadowing on your app would look bad in my opinion.

0 shadowing hours and multiple acceptances. For what it's worth, I didn't join the little premed club either.

 

[LizzyM]

I've never seen someone rejected for failure to join the pre-med club or a lack of shadowing. I have seen applicants rejected for a total lack of exposure to clinical settings and medicine as a career.

 

[Dral]

Well I tried many of your guy/gals great suggestions. I also went the Med School program and asked for help (fearfully..). They were actually very happy to help since I did one of their fellows programs this year. So anyways they sent some emails out to the hospital and hopefully I'll be shadowing very soon!

Most, (Not all) physicians and staff at a medical school institution/hospital expect to be involved in education or are at least used to it. I feel this is your best bet to get some meaningful interactions.

And in regards to the mention of shadowing not being important and to do research instead...not everything is about getting into medical school. Doing some personal exploration to find out what you maybe want to do in medicine (or if you even want to still do medicine at all) is important.

 

[nars etc]

l

 

[LSU Gladiator]

When I volunteered at a hospital, I didn't get to do or see squat. I just passed out ice & food, and transported patients & blood. I didn't get to talk to doctors, and they hardly made me feel useful.

When looking to shadow, younger doctors may be more receptive to your request because they remember what it was like being the undergrad. Keep looking until you find one. Cold calling is a fine strategy. You need to be tough though, because it's easy for a busy doctor to say no to the kid on the phone. Ask friends if they know doctors, and have your friends ask their friends. Eventually you will find a solid connection to ask a doctor to shadow. All it takes is one friendly doctor, and then that doctor can then help you shadow other doctors by asking their peers for you. I'm in the process of using my regular job shadow doctor (family med) to bridge to other specialties in upcoming weeks.

Stay tough. It seems like there's no way to shadow, but before you know it you'll have more doctors to shadow than you know what to do with.

 

[boostedct9a]

Wow, I literally walked into the local hospital and said "hey i want to be a surgeon can I shadow some surgeons, and that was it. i've been shadowing every weekend since. I talked to the volunteer coordinator though and she set it up for me. maybe that was the difference.