General surgery Qualifying 2010 - comments

[orthohand]

Hi
done with the qualifying
questions were fair and straightforward .
felt was easier than senior ABSITE

went to board review course
read fisher Makary , revised the review course hand outs in last one week

did not touch SESAP at all ( never touched in 5 yrs gen surg)-i think it is the most overrated thing - somehow always felt it was difficult - and after taking the exam conclusion- Do SESAP for knowledge and current concepts in 5th yr , but don't bother in the last few weeks.

lot of questions on Vascular, breast, thyroid, hand and orthopedics, sarcoma , peds surgery

hope this will help the current chiefs for next year exam

thanks

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[lura]

i also thought the QE was fairly straight forward. i did do SESAP and foudn there were several questions on the actual exam that were directly related to those found on SESAP.

In terms of content, heavy areas were trauma, vascular, breast, and critical care. I didn't think there was too much ortho though the 4-5 hand questions did throw me. Decent percentage of pedi-surgery, endocrine but overall these made up a small proportion. Very little neurosurgery/urology/transplant.

Almost no frank basic science questions so in comparision to ABSITE, I thought it was more straightforward.

 

[JackADeli]

Congratulations to all that took exam.

As for SESAP, this is my advice and take on the issue:

1. yes plenty of people take exam and pass with little to no SESAP usage.
2. IMHO, #1 is a strategic act of stupidity.

So, for all those planning on taking QE, here is where statement #2 is derived. Based on speaking directly with multiple ABS board members, etc, the exam is designed/written as such.

a. The QE exam is ~two parts; ~morning half and afternoon half.
b. The recert exam for those attendings about 10yrs out or more, is ~one part.
c. The one part recert exam is ~morning half of the QE exam.
d. The ABS intends the preparation for those recertifying surgeons to be via SESAP. They had troubles in the past with recertifying surgeons failing.... Thus, they are keen to assure recertifying is not excessively difficult for those ten or more years out of formal academic education, etc... This all means that SESAP is ~ made to have these old guys pass the first half/morning half of the QE. ABS promotes SESAP as ~the best preparation for this.

So, yes you can pass without SESAP. But why? If SESAP was ~written/developed/designed to get you through the first half of the exam, why would you avoid it.

i also thought the QE was fairly straight forward. i did do SESAP and foudn there were several questions on the actual exam that were directly related to those found on SESAP...

Exactly....wonder why

 

[philly resident]

Just about all of us (5 out of 6) in my Chief Class failed the Exam. We are trying to figure out what this means. None of us are dumb, and 3 of us are now at Ivy League - level fellowships. We all agree that our Chief Resident year was atrocious, that we fought at the last minute to make our miniumum cases, and that reading was not enough to make up for the inadequacies and inconsistencies that we saw in the clinical aspect of our training. Other than heavy trauma, we had marginal exposure to other fields.

Does this mean anything for our program? We fear that our Program Director/Chairman will incorrectly chalk up our poor performance to us individually rather than self-reflecting on the deficiencies of the program.

 

[SLUser11]

Just about all of us (5 out of 6) in my Chief Class failed the Exam. We are trying to figure out what this means. None of us are dumb, and 3 of us are now at Ivy League - level fellowships. We all agree that our Chief Resident year was atrocious, that we fought at the last minute to make our miniumum cases, and that reading was not enough to make up for the inadequacies and inconsistencies that we saw in the clinical aspect of our training. Other than heavy trauma, we had marginal exposure to other fields.

Does this mean anything for our program? We fear that our Program Director/Chairman will incorrectly chalk up our poor performance to us individually rather than self-reflecting on the deficiencies of the program.

The selfless thing to do would be to share with the SDN community which Philly program you come from, since you've described marginal operative numbers and inadequate preparation for the QE.

 

[JackADeli]

Just about all of us (5 out of 6) in my Chief Class failed the Exam...

Does this mean anything for our program?...

YES!!! pass/fail rates are available to applicants. pass/fail rates are viewed as reflection on quality of training program. significant faill rate with marginal operative numbers all reflect on program.

...We fear that our Program Director/Chairman will incorrectly chalk up our poor performance to us individually rather than self-reflecting on the deficiencies of the program.

Fear not, your PD will very likely make sure he/she points out how sorry/lousy the quality of residents today and how work hour restrictions and resident laziness is to blame....

Having said that, while 100% blame as above is not appropriate... the fact that you all failed does absolutely reflect on you and your classmates too. to state, "incorrectly chalk up our poor performance to us individually" is an act of self denial. With few exceptions, the vast majority of board certified surgeons I know will tell you that their academic/basic science/"education" component of residency was a joke and/or non-existent. Most past and recent present will tell you residency was large part a five year block of servitude with the responsibility of teaching and learning left almost entirely to the individual resident. Yet, they passed their exam while you and your colleagues have failed.

It hurts. I wish you the best of luck and hope this failure is a moment to open your eyes and pass the next time. But, consider this, when you pass the next sitting of the exam.... it will have zero to do with your general surgery program and everything to do with you.... which means, earlier recognition of this reality would possibly have allowed you to avoid the first failure.

 

[LifetimeDoc]

YES!!! pass/fail rates are available to applicants. pass/fail rates are viewed as reflection on quality of training program. significant faill rate with marginal operative numbers all reflect on program.

This seems contradictory to your later and larger post. If the majority of the blame is squarely on the resident(s), then how does the pass/fail rate have anything to do with the quality of the training program? It would appear then that the pass/fail rate is due to the program's selection of residents and not the program training itself (since you've said it's non-existent).

 

[goinsurg]

I remember going on a website last year that gave out the pass rate for the oral and written board exams over the past 5 years I think. Does anyone have that link to share?

 

[Smurfette]

I remember going on a website last year that gave out the pass rate for the oral and written board exams over the past 5 years I think. Does anyone have that link to share?

It's on the ABS website here. You can link to exam results from there---both on a national average pass rate perspective or a program specific breakdown for the last 5 yrs. It does not include any results after June 2010 (i.e. does not include results for 2010 chief classes).

Found out 2 days ago I am now board certified after taking the CE in Salt Lake last week. Woo-hoo!

 

[blue2000]

It's on the ABS website here. You can link to exam results from there---both on a national average pass rate perspective or a program specific breakdown for the last 5 yrs. It does not include any results after June 2010 (i.e. does not include results for 2010 chief classes).

Found out 2 days ago I am now board certified after taking the CE in Salt Lake last week. Woo-hoo!

Congrats!! In general terms, how did you think the oral exam went? I mean, clearly it went well in light of the fact that you are now a board certified surgeon, but was it basically what you expected?

 

[JackADeli]

This seems contradictory to your later and larger post. If the majority of the blame is squarely on the resident(s), then how does the pass/fail rate have anything to do with the quality of the training program? It would appear then that the pass/fail rate is due to the program's selection of residents and not the program training itself (since you've said it's non-existent).

It isn't that complicated as to be contradictory. The fault is on both sides.

1. Numerous individuals including myself in numerous threads have repeatedly commented on the teaching failures of residency programs... accross the board. It is not a secret. I am not the first nor do I suspect will I be the last to say it is far past the time for PDs and their staff to actually step up to the plate and start meeting their teaching obligations.

2. There is absolutely no perfect residency that upon completion, the residency exposure in and of itself assures passage of your exams. pre-meds, med-students, residents, etc..... your adults. you know your test taking weaknesses and strengths. we have taken test upon test over decades in all forms. there are gazillion study and practice options from question books, Osler type courses, SESAP, actual textbooks, etc, etc, etc..... For a program to recruit and "train" residents that by 5 years through have not figured it out is both a resident and program failing.

The tests are not easy. I know sufficient very smart and skilled surgeons that have failed.... They all lament the fact that their failure was avoidable... despite the pathetic teaching or lack thereof in their program.

So, in conclusion, I blame programs and PDs all day long. However, if there is upwards of 70-80% pass rate and it is no secret that residencies accross this country suck at actually teaching and it is no secret that when all is said and done "you" need to take and pass that test... it is at the very least your responsibility to figure out at some point what you need to do. Sometimes figuring it out requires a failure.

...Found out 2 days ago I am now board certified after taking the CE in Salt Lake last week. Woo-hoo!

Congrats!!!!

 

[Smurfette]

Congrats!! In general terms, how did you think the oral exam went? I mean, clearly it went well in light of the fact that you are now a board certified surgeon, but was it basically what you expected?

Well, it went better than I thought...I always got really nervous and flustered in my program's mock orals, but I kept my composure in the real thing even when I got some scenarios that were true zebras IMO. Half of the exam is keeping cool under pressure. I felt like I did well in the first room, and then got beat up in my second room (the trauma/CC room) when some of the data they gave me seemed to conflict (not going to get more specific about this), and the third room could have gone better, but overall didn't regret any of my answers at the end of the day as I felt like I did my best. The examiners were all fair and kind, although in my third room they got a bit aggressive towards me and tried to push me into changing my mind doing something else in the OR.

Some examiners are far more notorious for pushing candidates than others.

Talking to others afterward actually made me feel better...I realized when I 'played back' what I had said, I really did sound like I knew what I was talking about even though it didn't feel like it when under fire. There's something about being in the room in front of the examiners that feels awful and makes you feel completely insecure and question everything you say no matter how many times you've encountered the same scenarios in real life. Everybody looks a little shell-shocked immediately afterward...

In random information, while in the 'holding pen' before we started, we were told some stories of past candidates (these things will bring you back again!):
-being so confident they passed the first two rooms that they didn't go to their final room
-being so sure they failed the first room that they didn't go to their second or third rooms (you only have to pass two out of three rooms)
-arguing with examiners
-telling them they'd never ever do this kind of case and that they 'don't care' about the case at hand
-lying to the patient

 

[JackADeli]

Well, it went better than I thought...I felt like I did well in...

I still remember much of my examination experience.... not fun. I left the hotel lobby feeling pretty confident. Driving down the road with my SO, I started rethinking the scenarios and realizing some errors. By the time I was 10 miles down on the highway I was completely sure I just failed! For the next day or two I was going over the scenarios and answers and even more convinced I failed.

So, my SO & I were thrilled to discover how wrong I was when the notice of passing came in....

Board exams are hard but achievable.... more importantly you can not look at them as optional. That is, you need to take it so serious that failure is not an option. Then, if god forbid you fail, regroup and know refailing is not an option.... You just have to do it.

 

[Guile]

Just about all of us (5 out of 6) in my Chief Class failed the Exam. We are trying to figure out what this means. None of us are dumb, and 3 of us are now at Ivy League - level fellowships. We all agree that our Chief Resident year was atrocious, that we fought at the last minute to make our miniumum cases, and that reading was not enough to make up for the inadequacies and inconsistencies that we saw in the clinical aspect of our training. Other than heavy trauma, we had marginal exposure to other fields.

Does this mean anything for our program? We fear that our Program Director/Chairman will incorrectly chalk up our poor performance to us individually rather than self-reflecting on the deficiencies of the program.

Yes, please do post your program. We would appreciate knowing. Also what is an "Ivy League-level" program? There are Ivy League programs (not always the best depending on the fellowship) and not.

 

[Buzz Me]

Found out 2 days ago I am now board certified after taking the CE in Salt Lake last week. Woo-hoo!

Congrats!