General Surgery Residencies

[MattD]

So, the nearly 300 general surgery training sites available are giving me a severe case of hyperchoicemia. So, you guys just give me a list of schools to plug into ERAS while I drink a beer, sound like a plan?

Seriously though, I've certainly already got my own thoughts on the matter, but I'm curious what you guys think the 'places to be' are. I'm from the southeast and like it here, but I'm not averse to moving most anywhere in the country. I'm particularly interested in onc and endocrine, perhaps plastics, but I certainly want good exposure to a lot of areas as I'm not married to any subspecialty yet. I'm thinking at the moment I'll want a fellowship, but I want to do a residency that will leave me well qualified and capable of functioning independantly if I choose not to do one. Obviously I like the idea of plenty of early operative experience, but I also want to be highly capable of taking care of very sick patients on the floor/unit. So, you guys have 30 ERAS slots to fill, treat me well! 🙂

And thanks, any advice is welcome advice 🙂

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[smq123]

So, you guys have 30 ERAS slots to fill, treat me well! 🙂

So...you essentially want people to tell you where to apply? No mention of your stats, your experiences, and the overall status of your application? And, I take it, you didn't speak to the PD or chairman at your school or anything like that?

I see.

Thousands of people manage to wade through the choices on ERAS without much difficulty, and find out where the "places to be" are with no trouble. I did it, everyone else on SDN did it.

 

[MattD]

So...you essentially want people to tell you where to apply? No mention of your stats, your experiences, and the overall status of your application? And, I take it, you didn't speak to the PD or chairman at your school or anything like that?

I see.

Thousands of people manage to wade through the choices on ERAS without much difficulty, and find out where the "places to be" are with no trouble. I did it, everyone else on SDN did it.

In the above post, I said that I already have my own thoughts on where to apply. I'm not a fool, and I'm capable of putting together my application with my own research and the advice of my school's faculty. I was simply hoping to spark a conversation that might provide me with some additional insights. If you'd like to contribute, feel free. If not, then don't. If you have a question about me that would help you provide advice, I'll answer it.

SDN is here for people to ask questions and get advice, and it's here for people who'd like to provide that assistance. Please enlighten me, which of those activities were you engaged in with your reply?

One of the older folks on this board asked a while back why this forum seemed to mainly consist of attendings and senior residents, and wondered why younger posters didn't contribute much anymore. This is why.

 

[smq123]

SDN is here for people to ask questions and get advice, and it's here for people who'd like to provide that assistance. Please enlighten me, which of those activities were you engaged in with your reply?

🙄 If "SDN is here for people to ask questions and get advice," then why didn't you include any information that would HELP get you some real advice? Your stats, what school you go to, a general idea of what your CV would look like, which surgeons will write you LORs, what research you've done. I find it difficult to believe that any of the senior members of this forum would honestly say, "Hey! Apply to Duke!" without knowing what kind of shot you have at that kind of place.

You also did NOT provide what kind of info your PD and your chairman offered you. What kind of places did THEY suggest? It gives others an idea of what kind of places you ought to be looking at.

Without providing that information, you're basically coming across as someone who is whining, "But do my homework for me!!" And while SDN is here for people to get advice, it's not here so that you can get away with doing less work.

And if "this" is why there are fewer med students hanging around, then oh well, that's just too bad. If getting more traffic into the surgery forum would involve having the residents and attendings on here to, essentially, do other people's work for them, then the forum DOES deserve to get less traffic.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Without knowing anything about your application, what follows should be taken with a grain of salt.

In the southeast, you have to include Louisville in your list of "places to be". There are grads of that excellent, but difficult, program here on SDN who can give you more insight, but it would certainly provide you with the training you seek.

Other programs to look at:

Eastern Carolina
Christiana (not so south in Delaware, but a great community program with academic feel)
UT Memphis
Emory
UAB
UTSW
Duke

Whether you are competitive or these programs are what you are looking for is moot, and I'm sure others have additional suggestions.

 

[SocialistMD]

Without knowing anything about your application, what follows should be taken with a grain of salt.

In the southeast, you have to include Louisville in your list of "places to be". There are grads of that excellent, but difficult, program here on SDN who can give you more insight, but it would certainly provide you with the training you seek.

Other programs to look at:

Eastern Carolina
Christiana (not so south in Delaware, but a great community program with academic feel)
UT Memphis
Emory
UAB
UTSW
Duke

Whether you are competitive or these programs are what you are looking for is moot, and I'm sure others have additional suggestions.

If you are counting UT-Memphis and Louisville, you have to mention Vandy. UF is also very good and on the rise.

 

[Winged Scapula]

If you are counting UT-Memphis and Louisville, you have to mention Vandy. UF is also very good and on the rise.

Sure.

I got tired of typing...but you are right...Vandy is a good choice. I haven't heard much about UF so will defer to your ear to the ground on its rep.

 

[OpheliaButz]

Seriously, smq, you need to relax a bit. I'm another Philly girl but I'm doing ortho, and I seriously hope we're not going to the same place for residency cause I feel like you'd be the kind of girl who'd be all over my case for the nine months that I'm on general surgery stuff. Your posts are helpful sometimes but a lot of the time I feel like you are just calling people out. If dude wants some advice about SE programs, this is not unreasonable... if you don't have anything constructive to say, you could have just let the thread die. 👎

 

[SocialistMD]

Seriously, smq, you need to relax a bit. I'm another Philly girl but I'm doing ortho, and I seriously hope we're not going to the same place for residency cause I feel like you'd be the kind of girl who'd be all over my case for the nine months that I'm on general surgery stuff. Your posts are helpful sometimes but a lot of the time I feel like you are just calling people out. If dude wants some advice about SE programs, this is not unreasonable... if you don't have anything constructive to say, you could have just let the thread die. 👎

In her defense, it was a pretty lame question and does show some laziness. Don't ask me to do your legwork for your career and I wouldn't trust people, well-meaning or not (you never know) on an internet forum about what programs they think are good and what aren't, especially on SDN, where most opinions are dictated by the US News and World Report rather than actual knowledge of each program. The two programs I listed were obvious ones and didn't offer anything Matt wouldn't already know, so I don't think I violated my philosophy of not contributing in any meaningful way to threads like this.

 

[OpheliaButz]

Yeah, def a lame question. I guess I just wouldn't have responded to a lame question rather than jumping all over it to call the person out as she did. Yeah, I am responding to the calling-out but I've been reading SDN for a long time and consistently see smq riding people for every little thing, and I just don't think I could deal with that in real life...

 

[smq123]

Seriously, smq, you need to relax a bit. I'm another Philly girl but I'm doing ortho, and I seriously hope we're not going to the same place for residency cause I feel like you'd be the kind of girl who'd be all over my case for the nine months that I'm on general surgery stuff. Your posts are helpful sometimes but a lot of the time I feel like you are just calling people out. If dude wants some advice about SE programs, this is not unreasonable... if you don't have anything constructive to say, you could have just let the thread die. 👎

Ok. I can do constructive.

a) If you're going to ask someone, anyone, to generate a list of places to apply FOR you, you should provide them with an honest appraisal of your CV and application. It is usually a waste of time to apply to a top-name place when your Step 1 score is a good 30 points below their well-advertised cutoff.

b) If you're serious about a career in general surgery, it's probably a good idea to start getting to know who and where the big names in surgery are. The SDN archives are fairly easy to navigate (particularly for someone who has been here over 5 years). Journal club articles and gossip among residents should provide you with some idea of who are the top places in surgery. As a starting 4th year med student, you should probably already know this, though, unless you JUST realized you wanted to do gen surg.

c) Again, if you're serious about a career in general surgery, be prepared for the very likely possibility of getting a scathing response in return for asking questions like the OP. Perhaps my school just had a particularly intense surgery rotation, but that's probably what would have happened if I had asked some attendings that question. It does teach you to think before you ask, though.

Pointing out that someone is lazily expecting others to do his work for him is not the same thing as riding him for every little thing. If, like others, he had posted his stats, any geographical limitations, and a list of places he had already pulled, and then asked for other smaller-name places that he hadn't considered, that'd be great, and could generate a helpful discussion.

<sigh> When I was on rotations, and other students lazily expected me to (essentially) do their consults for them, or do some scut for them, I held my tongue because I had to - and I got tired of it quickly. It's SDN, and I don't have to, which is why I don't.

But thanks for tracking posts and letting me know that I ride people for every little thing. I don't think I do, but then again most of my posts have been in forums that you do not read.

 

[SLUser11]

One of the older folks on this board asked a while back why this forum seemed to mainly consist of attendings and senior residents, and wondered why younger posters didn't contribute much anymore. This is why.

Well, that was me. But for the record, I'm only 29, which is not that old. I still have a full year left in the "Males aged 18-30" demographic, so I guess I can keep watching Real World/Road Rules Challenge.

I agree with you to some extent. The surgical forum can be intimidating, and if every question is met with a bad attitude, we'll drive away a lot of people that would otherwise add to our conversation. Still, I haven't found a good solution.

Feel free to post your opinions, and ask questions....and don't be intimidated by our "Senior Posters." Remember that this is just an internet forum. Any sort of hierarchy is completely fabricated. But don't expect us to do your work for you. If your question could be easily answered by a couple hours of personal research, then you'll get some resistant people here on SDN.

As for your original question, I only interviewed at one program in the southeast: Medical College of Georgia. the program itself seemed good in my opinion: I thought the weather was nice, and the PD was very much above average (I think his name was Mellinger), but I heard the N word a few times, and felt overall that the south was very different than what I was used to and what I was looking for....so I passed. Sorry I can't be more help.

 

[SocialistMD]

I guess I just wouldn't have responded to a lame question rather than jumping all over it to call the person out as she did.

Yeah, I am responding to the calling-out but I've been reading SDN for a long time and consistently see smq riding people for every little thing, and I just don't think I could deal with that in real life...

Funny, but you just admitted to doing exactly what smq123 did, justifying it by stating that you are sick of seeing smq123 be a pain in the butt. Fine, but perhaps she is sick of seeing people post this type of question, meaning she is just as justified as you.

Matt- Here you go.

 

[deegs]

Matt- Here you go.

I LOVE this link. Next stupid question that shows up in my inbox is getting it.....

 

[devilpup]

Matt- Here you go.

ah!, totally unexpected-

 

[Winged Scapula]

Well, that was me.

Huh, I thought it was ME (and I do qualify for being an "older folk").

I don't mean to be intimidating or unhelpful but I also think I represent the kind of response you will get from residents and attendings if you ask questions that you can find the answer to. As you and smq have noted, surgery is not a field where you can ask these sorts of questions (at least not often) and expect to be patted on the head for your inquisitiveness.

I've been toying with the idea of posting less because I fear that a lot of the intimidation (or what have you) is stemming from me. My posts are admittedly not always helpful and I am less able to tolerate BS than I used to. That was never my goal in being on SDN and I don't mean to be snarky, but clearly it comes through. So its either post less or try to ignore/tolerate more.

I also think this forum is a lot less intimidating and more welcoming to newbies than the Anesthesia forum, where nearly every new poster is met with derision and accusations of being a CRNA.

But thanks for tracking posts and letting me know that I ride people for every little thing. I don't think I do, but then again most of my posts have been in forums that you do not read.

Let's not forget that smq, despite hanging out here (because she knows its the cool place to be), is going into OB-Gyn. You know what they say about their attitude.

Matt- Here you go.

Fabulous! That is going to get some heavy use all over SDN, me predicts.

 

[MattD]

Hey guys,

To the people who responded at all meaningfully, I appreciate it.

Nevermind though. I've certainly done plenty of my own research, and was not asking anyone to 'do my legwork for me'. It appears that the jesting tone I used in my original post was taken by many to be me LITERALLY asking them to tell me where to apply, which is absurd. The reason I provided the information I did, and I didn't provide the information that I didn't, is because I was interested in what people thought about PROGRAMS, not what they thought about my individual competitiveness for those programs. Therefore I listed a few points I was looking for in a program. That's fine though, I kinda figured I'd get jumped on for asking a broad question, I had just hoped folks had mellowed out a bit while I'd been away from the site.

SLUser - After >5 years of seeing how this board runs, I'm certainly not intimidated by it, but it certainly is a pain in the butt when a resource as useful as this is made difficult to use by people who have nothing better to do than attempt to run you down if they don't like what you have to say. Anyway... I'd be interested in hearing about your experience with Medical College of Georgia, are you saying that you heard racial slurs being used by the staff, or was this something you noticed about the general public in the area? It's a program I've been looking at, but if the faculty/staff hold those sorts of attitudes then that's definitely a turn-off for me...

 

[MattD]

Ok. I can do constructive.

a) If you're going to ask someone, anyone, to generate a list of places to apply FOR you, you should provide them with an honest appraisal of your CV and application. It is usually a waste of time to apply to a top-name place when your Step 1 score is a good 30 points below their well-advertised cutoff.

The 'Tell me where I should apply so I don't have to think!!!111!' thing was so obviously a joke, I THOUGHT, that I didn't think I had to spell that out. My Step 1 score is not 30 points below anyone's well-advertised cutoff.

b) If you're serious about a career in general surgery, it's probably a good idea to start getting to know who and where the big names in surgery are. The SDN archives are fairly easy to navigate (particularly for someone who has been here over 5 years). Journal club articles and gossip among residents should provide you with some idea of who are the top places in surgery. As a starting 4th year med student, you should probably already know this, though, unless you JUST realized you wanted to do gen surg.

I've done my research. But thanks.

c) Again, if you're serious about a career in general surgery, be prepared for the very likely possibility of getting a scathing response in return for asking questions like the OP. Perhaps my school just had a particularly intense surgery rotation, but that's probably what would have happened if I had asked some attendings that question. It does teach you to think before you ask, though.

In a non-internet conversation I'd have probably been a tad less flip, you're right, but I've actually had quite helpful responses and nice discussions with the residents around here when I asked, quite broadly, what were some of your favorite places on the interview trail, and why?

Pointing out that someone is lazily expecting others to do his work for him is not the same thing as riding him for every little thing. If, like others, he had posted his stats, any geographical limitations, and a list of places he had already pulled, and then asked for other smaller-name places that he hadn't considered, that'd be great, and could generate a helpful discussion.

As I've mentioned above, I've done plenty of the work myself. I wanted to know if anyone had insights that I hadn't thought to ask about. Remember waaaaay back when you learned the patient history and were told to ask open ended questions? Same basic idea. Maybe I asked TOO open ended of a question, but it's sad that you immediately jump to the worst possible conclusion about a person.

<sigh> When I was on rotations, and other students lazily expected me to (essentially) do their consults for them, or do some scut for them, I held my tongue because I had to - and I got tired of it quickly. It's SDN, and I don't have to, which is why I don't.

Likewise, although I probably didn't do a very good job of holding my tongue. I kept it on a student-student level, of course, and of course it didn't make any difference....
But there's a difference between not holding your tongue about something that matters, and choosing to make assumptions about people based on little evidence.

 

[SLUser11]

SLUser - After >5 years of seeing how this board runs, I'm certainly not intimidated by it, but it certainly is a pain in the butt when a resource as useful as this is made difficult to use by people who have nothing better to do than attempt to run you down if they don't like what you have to say. Anyway... I'd be interested in hearing about your experience with Medical College of Georgia, are you saying that you heard racial slurs being used by the staff, or was this something you noticed about the general public in the area? It's a program I've been looking at, but if the faculty/staff hold those sorts of attitudes then that's definitely a turn-off for me...

Not the residents or staff. They were all normal. I just heard a lot of racial slurs while down there.....from the people at the hotel....from the other interviewing students, etc. They were usually things that the person saying it did not even realize comes off as extremely racist, which is why I felt that it must be the norm, since to them it wasn't even a racist comment, etc.

I honestly liked MCG a lot. Their tagline was "Internists who Operate," which makes most actual internists wince, but seemed like a good overall goal to me. I just couldn't see myself living in Georgia. Honestly, Kansas is about as southern as I can handle. But if you're from the south and want to stay there, I recall that a lot of the interviewees from the area thought it was a good program. They did say that parts of Augusta can be a little dodgy, but it's all relative since I had just spent 8 years in St. Louis.....

 

[Dr. V]

Matt, don't overlook ETSU, I think it's a solid program.

Won't get you into peds surgery, but everything else is open.

Good operative experience, one drawback is that it is trauma heavy (residents staff two level I trauma centers and a level II).

Unlike many programs you are in the OR as an intern instead of waiting til third year, and to me that was a plus.

Just like any program it's not for everyone, but I couldn't be happier. It was my number 1 choice by far, and I interviewed all over the southeast, give it a look.

 

[Dimoak]

I've been toying with the idea of posting less because I fear that a lot of the intimidation (or what have you) is stemming from me. My posts are admittedly not always helpful and I am less able to tolerate BS than I used to. That was never my goal in being on SDN and I don't mean to be snarky, but clearly it comes through. So its either post less or try to ignore/tolerate more.

Don't do that, please. Seriously, if someone can't handle a little over-the-internet snarkiness, how would they survive an actual surgical internship (or even a rotation)? Methinks your advice and criticisms on this forum have helped and taught a heckuva lot more people than those whose feelings were hurt because they didn't get a pat on the head and a tap on the cheek. There's really no reason to be hard enough on yourself to consider contributing less; most people have a thicker skin than it may seem anyway.

 

[surgical06]

one thing i've noted about some surgery residents/attendings, and even some med students: when given the chance to be an #$@$#hole they take it. lol
the op obviously was joking, and just wanted some convo on popular programs. there is a reason why sm??? responded like that, spend 0-5minutes with him/her and i'm sure that reason will be obvious.

too many of us can't separate random personal interactions from patient care and wind up taking everything too serious.

just list your favorite programs if you have any. if not, like i don't, keep it moving.


somebody pissed in my cornflakes today...lol

 

[OpheliaButz]

Yeah, I'm with surgical06, someone must have just pissed in my cornflakes today. I know that I basically called someone out for calling someone out, and I admitted it... but my basic idea still stands, which is that smq and I are in the same level of training (you will be an ob/gyn intern and I an ortho intern, so I guess we won't really interact too much!) but I am just less quick to bust balls as she is. I know, I just busted her balls, yadda yadda yadda, but this girl has a serious pattern of calling people out and I just wanted to point out that this is exactly the kind of co-intern I would avoid as much as possible. Sorry for distracting from the OP's original post and from the other valid contributions from the other upstanding SDN members... 😛

 

[surgical06]

not even surgery, ok then. i'll save my jokes for later😀

 

[Biscuit799]

The op was obviously making a comment in jest while trying to seek info about our perception of various programs. Lay off. It kills me when people are d*cks just for the sake of being a d*ck.

The south is also loaded with some great community-style programs. Carilion Clinic is great and all the residents love it. Dallas-Methodist is a phenomenal program and really has their stuff together and gives great experience. Definitely look into that one. Atlanta Medical Center is good, but also trauma heavy. I've heard lots of great things about MCG too. A lot o people love the Oscher Clinic in New Orleans, but I wasnt' too impressed myself...
In the northeast, Lennox Hill in NYC is pretty decent but I didn't jive with the whole NYC attitude thing. Caritas St. E's is in Boston, and is a great program with lots of nice people, and has a university feel to it. In Seattle, Virginia Mason (I've heard) is a great program, but too far away for me. St. Joseph's hospital in Phoenix is a new program, but all the faculty were really awesome and had a good real-world sense about them. Abington Memorial in Philly (actually, Abington, PA... a suburb of Philly) is another great program that will train you well to be a well rounded general surgeon. In general though, be wary of northeast community programs because they tend to just use residents as work horses and not train too well (esp in NY/NJ).

As far as university programs, I don't know quite as much because I was specifically looking for community-style programs. West Virginia was probably the single best university program I saw. The residents were really friendly, LOVED their program, and the faculty were great. University of Illinois-Chicago has two community programs affiliated with it- MGH and Mt. Sinai, both of which are more geared towards general style than their strictly academic counterpart. As previously mentioned ETSU is great. Some of the bigger programs mentioned (Duke, Louisville, UF-Shands, USF-Tampa, Emory, UT-Memphis) are great at training you for a fellowship, but are often research intensive, which isn't something I was really looking for.

As you can tell, I wanted the same things you wanted, but in a more community-style setting. Hopefully the above was helpful and PM me with any more questions.

 

[kmellowyellow]

At the risk of inciting more wrath, I appreciate the OP's question. The replies are so helpful to me...after spending hours of poring over school websites and forums I feel like I'm drowning. It's hard to discern important details from websites when the school's goal is to look as good as possible, and most of the residents at the Surg program at my school just applied in this area, so they're no help when it comes to programs elsewhere. Other people's opitions help to confirm things I've heard/felt/decided about programs and areas. I know all about me, my stats and how competitive I am, but I don't want to make decisions about the next 5-7 years of my life without knowing as much as possible about the program, its reputation, etc. and every little bit helps! 😀

 

[iCut]

Ok. I can do constructive.

a) If you're going to ask someone, anyone, to generate a list of places to apply FOR you, you should provide them with an honest appraisal of your CV and application. It is usually a waste of time to apply to a top-name place when your Step 1 score is a good 30 points below their well-advertised cutoff.

b) If you're serious about a career in general surgery, it's probably a good idea to start getting to know who and where the big names in surgery are. The SDN archives are fairly easy to navigate (particularly for someone who has been here over 5 years). Journal club articles and gossip among residents should provide you with some idea of who are the top places in surgery. As a starting 4th year med student, you should probably already know this, though, unless you JUST realized you wanted to do gen surg.

c) Again, if you're serious about a career in general surgery, be prepared for the very likely possibility of getting a scathing response in return for asking questions like the OP. Perhaps my school just had a particularly intense surgery rotation, but that's probably what would have happened if I had asked some attendings that question. It does teach you to think before you ask, though.

Pointing out that someone is lazily expecting others to do his work for him is not the same thing as riding him for every little thing. If, like others, he had posted his stats, any geographical limitations, and a list of places he had already pulled, and then asked for other smaller-name places that he hadn't considered, that'd be great, and could generate a helpful discussion.

<sigh> When I was on rotations, and other students lazily expected me to (essentially) do their consults for them, or do some scut for them, I held my tongue because I had to - and I got tired of it quickly. It's SDN, and I don't have to, which is why I don't.

But thanks for tracking posts and letting me know that I ride people for every little thing. I don't think I do, but then again most of my posts have been in forums that you do not read.

Matt,

Dont worry 99% of the people interpreted your question correctly, no need to explain yourself. This is not the last time some one will lash out at you because they are bitter about their own failures and regrets. However most people find it more therapeutic to do it in person rather than over the internet. Try to find humor in their pathetic misery and underlying low self-esteem rather than getting down on yourself...it works for me.

Good luck in your search, get a short list of the programs you are interested in and use the search engine. Most of the time you can find someone has at least mentioned the program.

peace

 

[45408]

I don't mean to be intimidating or unhelpful but I also think I represent the kind of response you will get from residents and attendings if you ask questions that you can find the answer to. As you and smq have noted, surgery is not a field where you can ask these sorts of questions (at least not often) and expect to be patted on the head for your inquisitiveness.

I've been toying with the idea of posting less because I fear that a lot of the intimidation (or what have you) is stemming from me. My posts are admittedly not always helpful and I am less able to tolerate BS than I used to. That was never my goal in being on SDN and I don't mean to be snarky, but clearly it comes through. So its either post less or try to ignore/tolerate more.

Whoa, definitely don't do that. Your posts are easily many of the most valuable ones in this forum. If people think that this place is harsh, they should stay away from most of the rest of the Internet

 

[Musashi450]

I second TheProwler, as another med student planning on going into gen surg, I greatly appreciate the input that winged scapula and others give on this forum. I do feel the op frustration though on trying to find out information on specific programs and am keeping a close eye on this thread. I actually want to thank mattD for posting the question.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Whoa, definitely don't do that. Your posts are easily many of the most valuable ones in this forum. If people think that this place is harsh, they should stay away from most of the rest of the Internet

Thirded. Not going into GS, but if I were, I'd really appreciate someone who provides honest, real feedback about what it's like. Stick around, WS!

 

[JackADeli]

...I don't mean to be intimidating...

Stick around cause some of us like it rough

 

[JayDoc06]

At Louisville, you have all options open to you. A grad last year matched at MD Anderson for surg onc and this year a grad going to Mayo for endocrine. Can't do much better than that if those are your interests. Plus, if you just want to finish (like I do) and just get on with it, you will be very ready for general surgery private practice. I put our operative experience and ability to "take care of sick patients" against anyone in the country. I'll take any comments off the air...

 

[Winged Scapula]

Thanks guys/gals. I appreciate your input.

The amount of negative comments I get about the "attitude" here can be overwhelming at times and I thought perhaps I just didn't see it. Even some of the other Mods have complained.

I agree that things are much harsher in the "real world" and if you can't take little ol' SDN, then you aren't going to make it in a surgery residency. I believe in telling it likes I sees it...even if it isn't the experience of others or isn't all warm and fuzzy like they would like it.