General Surgery Resident - AMA!

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Currently I work in an addiction treatment facility and I frequently pull up to 36 without sleep (overnight shifts and full time school schedule), and I am fine with that . It is weird , but my brain actually stays sharp . After 36 hours - rough 🙂. I am also very good at concentrating for hours non-stop. So I am not really worried about my body handling it per se , as I am kind of wondering if it is even normal to be a 37-42 year old resident, you know ? Like , would attendings treat me differently because I am older ? Would I not get same opportunities career wise because I am older? I know these questions might sound crazy for someone in early 20s, but I feel like you have to think about it when you start Med school later , you know ? Am I wrong ?

42 starting residency is maybe more than 1SD away from the mean (?), but I don't have the data on that.
How you are treated isn't largely determined by your age alone but by how you act. You have to be ok 'taking orders' from someone maybe 10 years younger than you.
No, you won't have the exact same career opportunities - you might start your career 10-20 years after the age the majority of surgeons do; for one, you won't likely have the probability of working for as many years. You may become interested in a fellowship and then look at being a 50 year old fellow...and you gotta pay back those loans somehow.
No, everyone interested in medicine and surgery should count the cost, and age/fertility/life expectancy is a part of evaluating what the best choice for any given person is.

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42 starting residency is maybe more than 1SD away from the mean (?), but I don't have the data on that.
How you are treated isn't largely determined by your age alone but by how you act. You have to be ok 'taking orders' from someone maybe 10 years younger than you.
No, you won't have the exact same career opportunities - you might start your career 10-20 years after the age the majority of surgeons do; for one, you won't likely have the probability of working for as many years. You may become interested in a fellowship and then look at being a 50 year old fellow...and you gotta pay back those loans somehow.
No, everyone interested in medicine and surgery should count the cost, and age/fertility/life expectancy is a part of evaluating what the best choice for any given person is.
I think you misunderstood me slightly . I would be FINISHING the residency at 42. But I do see your point .
 
The expectation is that I have my patients seen, notes and orders done, people seen in pre-op, and attendings updated by OR start time (usually around 0700-0730). How early I have to start depends on how many patients I have, how sick they are, who else is on the service; usually start rounding 0530 but it varies from 0430 to 0600. I have never gotten to the hospital later than 0630. Some residencies are more regimented, so you do chief-led group rounds - intern gets there 0430-0500 to 'get the numbers', midlevel is there ~0530 to review things/pre-round, and chief is there at ~0600 and then you actually round and the chief then goes off to talk to the attendings.

I usually get home around 1800 on a 'good' rotation. Over the last two months I've been home before 1930 only once. Call is handled differently at different programs, but you get four total days off a month. So on the four weekend days I work it's a 24-hour dedicated call day, and then finishing whatever rounding/patient care didn't get done when holding the call phone.

Ahh sounds like my residency. I don’t miss those hours!
 
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Ahh sounds like my residency. I don’t miss those hours!

Always good to hear when someone has nicer hours on the other side!

Some of my attendings have really great hours; some of them are still there super early to super late...
 
Always good to hear when someone has nicer hours on the other side!

Some of my attendings have really great hours; some of them are still there super early to super late...

Oh no, sometimes I still work those hours... but the nature of the work is soooo much more palatable now.
 
Do surgeries get intuitive at one point or do you still have to memorize every step for every surgery?
 
One of the doctors I work with told me she was interested in gen surg but ultimately decided against it because “she wanted to have a life. “ Do general surgeons really have an awful work-life balance?
 
Do surgeries get intuitive at one point or do you still have to memorize every step for every surgery?
That's a really interesting question!

General surgery is largely made of basic principles - knowledge of relevant anatomy, exposure, dissecting planes, control of bleeding, suture technique and anastomoses. You need to know where you need to get and how you are getting there. So for most surgeries, you do them routinely and do them the same way every time. So when you start out, it is very much an experience of "Ok, what is the next step I need to do?" But after awhile the basic steps do become ingrained.

There is a huge level-up between an intern operating and having to really think about each next step to a PGY2,3,4. But it's not just about what are the next steps, what really moves you forward in abdominal surgery is being able to see the correct planes and dissect appropriately - sometimes you can't verbalize that and you just have to see it and at some level it becomes intuitive and you'll find it. Some people have 'good hands' and from what I've seen a lot of that is operating efficiently and dissecting in the right planes. It's not all in the hands, it's mostly in the mind.

But there are times there are significantly distorted planes, variant anatomy, or, for example, large complex tumours that require taking out a lot of stuff and putting it back together in areas of pricey real estate. You still do the same surgery you would regularly do with the distorted planes but you have to be safe.

Then there are the surgeries that you don't do regularly but have the appropriate training and skill to do and it's appropriate that you do it - for these it is a mix of more than usual planning, doing what you would usually do but with variation, and reliance on your anatomy and basic techniques. If you know your anatomy, you can operate with impunity.

That's from a primarily abdominal general surgery perspective. @OrthoTraumaMD had some good comments above, too; I don't know anything about orthopaedic operative steps. Vascular is similar but not about planes for endovasc stuff.
 
One of the doctors I work with told me she was interested in gen surg but ultimately decided against it because “she wanted to have a life. “ Do general surgeons really have an awful work-life balance?

It depends on the person and what they want and what they consider an awful work-life balance.

I know surgeons who work 50 hours a week and think it's too much. I know surgeons who work over 90 hours a week and think they have a pretty good work-life balance.

As a resident most of the times the work-life balance is ok but not great. I have family and a time-consuming hobby. I don't have multiple hobbies or time to do everything I want to. Overall I feel fulfilled. I would rather operate and work 100 hours a week than have to do all clinic work for 40 hours a week.
 
Cool, thanks for doing this. There was a really awesome "ask a general surgery resident anything" thread here maybe 6 or 7 years ago that was unfortunately deleted. It was super helpful, and probably contributed to me ending up in general surgery as well. I told myself that I would do something similar if no one else did once I was more senior (I'm a second year now).
 
One of the doctors I work with told me she was interested in gen surg but ultimately decided against it because “she wanted to have a life. “ Do general surgeons really have an awful work-life balance?

More so in residency. The OP seems like he/she has handled it really well, but it's definitely a tough road where I'm at. I love my program as well, but the only one day off a week thing for five years does get pretty draining. In general, we are there before other non-surgical specialties, in large part because we have to round on everyone and get things done before cases start ~7:30.

After residency, it's totally variable. There are plenty of surgeons who prioritize free time, and plenty who don't. I believe @dpmd works part time and seems to have a pretty awesome work/life balance
 
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More so in residency. The OP seems like he/she has handled it really well, but it's definitely a tough road where I'm at. I love my program as well, but the only one day off a week thing for five years does get pretty draining. In general, we are there before other non-surgical specialties, in large part because we have to round on everyone and get things done before cases start ~7:30.

After residency, it's totally variable. There are plenty of surgeons who prioritize free time, and plenty who don't. I believe @dpmd works part time and seems to have a pretty awesome work/life balance
Yup, I take plenty of days off (for fun or for volunteer activities) and try not to have long days. I do still take call but it is at home with only occasional going in after 5pm (will usually hold off on seeing any consults till around noon then come home for dinner after which I will only see emergent stuff). The next day is often an 8 hour day though from all the consults that accumulated by the time I finish call at 7 am.
 
1. Some days.
2. Ehh, depends on the rotation. And it depends on the person - when I was an intern, my chiefs came in after me and left before me, but I'm a workaholic and so come in before and leave after my interns often (not all the time).
3. Caveat: my list of pros/cons is going to be different from anyone else's list because it all depends on personal preference.
Pros: Operating. Short rounding. Short notes. See immediate effects of what you did. Get to be there for pretty big/important moments in people's lives (cancer, trauma, death/near-death, critical illness, etc). Operating. Broad exposure to lots of stuff. Lots of options for practice patterns or fellowships depending on what you want to do. Do what no other group of people can do. Awesome anatomy. Fix discrete problems. Probably more protected from mid-level creep (although one day there will probably be one year 'residencies' for 'operative general surgery NPs'...). Operating.
Cons: Long hours, long training. Can have lots of stress. Potential of lawsuits. You're there for scary moments in people's lives (cancer, trauma, death/near-death, critical illness, etc) and sometimes things don't go the way you and the patient/family want even though you do everything 'right'. People (including patients) take their stress out on you. You deliver a lot of bad news. Kind of the surgical dumping service - can babysit a lot of old lady falls, ortho, and neurosurgery trauma, not to mention the SBOs, pancreatitis, and vague abdominal pain you'll round on for a month but never operate on....
The dumping ground thing goes away if you go somewhere with hospitalists than want rvus and you don't do trauma. I will still see those sbo and abd pain folks but can sign off quickly with a please reconsult if needed. The only pancreatitis I see is the gallstone ones (to take out gallbladder) or the really bad ones that scare the hospitalist (but usually don't need much besides more fluids). And if you are on an eat what you kill pay structure you don't mind the nonop stuff as much.
 
How do you feel quality of life/stress of residency and work life balance would change if you had a spouse and child (assuming you don’t already)? Basically, do you think gen surgery residency would be possible with family
I feel like an understanding spouse makes things easier. They can pick up some of the daily life crap for you. I can see how a needy or not understanding spouse could make life hell. Kids it probably depends on the age. Crying all night would be hell. A fun age where you get to play with them when you get home might be nice if you are into that sort of thing. But if old enough to notice you aren't there for their recital or whatever that is probably hard unless they are understanding. If your spouse has an inflexible job and there are kids that would be tough too (even without kids, if no one can meet the plumber when there is a leak or whatever it will cause strain). I was lucky enough to have a spouse who enjoyed hanging out with me whenever possible but also was fine when I couldn't. And since he worked 11pm to 7 am he could handle daytime urgent stuff if needed but usually he would sleep so we could both be awake together in the evenings.
 
Um, so how much $$ do you make?
As a resident the pay scales are the same per year for specialties. You can look up on most residency websites how much the residents there make. Currently around 60k for PGY4 for me.

The jobs I have looked at for private practice in smaller to mid-size cities have a variety of pay scales. Pretty consistently $350-400k guaranteed base salary for one to three years, adjust up or down based on productivity.
 
As a resident the pay scales are the same per year for specialties. You can look up on most residency websites how much the residents there make. Currently around 60k for PGY4 for me.

The jobs I have looked at for private practice in smaller to mid-size cities have a variety of pay scales. Pretty consistently $350-400k guaranteed base salary for one to three years, adjust up or down based on productivity.

Resident salaries also vary greatly by state, depending on cost of living in that state.
 
Yes but afterwards, from my understanding, their salaries cap out at much lower than civilians as attendings.

Definitely true. Plus, at least in general surgery, they don’t get a lot of say as to where they end up or if they can do a fellowship. So it seems like a good deal up front, but there are definitely significant drawbacks.
 
I’m not a general surgeon, but I am a surgeon and I’m sorry for hijacking the thread, but if OP doesn’t mind I will answer as well.

There are nuances to every surgery. You get very good at memorizing the basic steps, the rest is a mix of improvisation and luck.

For very complex surgeries, I still write out a detailed operative plan because even the best surgeons can get tangled up in their own thoughts and forget something along the way.

I never did this as a general surgery resident, but I definitely do this now. In residency, I'd read Zollinger's Operative Atlas to get a lay of the land and anatomy, then go do the case. In fellowship now, especially for some of the complex aneurysm stuff we do, I will actually write out step-by-step how I think the operation should go. This allows me to free up bandwidth to focus on the case and complications that may arise instead of wondering what the next step is going to be. Not everyone has to do this, I just found that it works for me. 90% of the magic is outside of the OR. Also, 73.6% of all statistics are made up on the spot. Cheers.
 
...; usually start rounding 0530 but it varies from 0430 to 0600. I have never gotten to the hospital later than 0630...

I usually get home around 1800 on a 'good' rotation. Over the last two months I've been home before 1930 only once.
How many hours do you sleep on average?
 
How many hours do you sleep on average?

Depends on the rotation. Once I get home, it is family time until the non-adults' bedtime. Then usually an hour for me to work on stuff, then bed. Usually in bed around 2200 or 2300 and up somewhere between 0400 and 0530. For trauma which is 24hr call, usually 1-4hrs spread out.
 
Thanks for doing this!! Are you an MD? If so, do you have any fellow residents who are DO? Do you see any disadvantage or advantage going the DO route for gen surg? You mentioned that you may pursue a fellowship option... which one are you thinking right now and why?

Edit: ooo also, what is your favorite procedure and why?
 
Thanks for doing this!! Are you an MD? If so, do you have any fellow residents who are DO? Do you see any disadvantage or advantage going the DO route for gen surg? You mentioned that you may pursue a fellowship option... which one are you thinking right now and why?

Edit: ooo also, what is your favorite procedure and why?

MD. None of my fellow residents are DO.
With the ACGME merger things are certainly changing for DO; on one hand, historically, it was an uphill battle for DOs to get 'good' (or any) residencies in the allopathic match for general surgery, but again, things have changed. There are certainly regional biases. I wouldn't do DO personally because I wouldn't want to deal with OMM stuff. You may have overall more options but as mentioned there are biases against it. Also, the DOs I've known had to set up their own clinical rotations; that could be changing, I don't know.
Fellowship because I like technical and intricate surgery on people who get better but still have big surgeries and a critical care aspect.

Favorite procedure - anytime the surgery is beautiful and flows and the patient does well! Some days that's a gallbladder, some days, that's merely a DLDC. I actually don't like hemicolectomies that much, which is probably partially why I don't think I'll do straight-up general surgery (or colorectal) in the US. Altemeiers and are pretty fun, though.
 
MD. None of my fellow residents are DO.
With the ACGME merger things are certainly changing for DO; on one hand, historically, it was an uphill battle for DOs to get 'good' (or any) residencies in the allopathic match for general surgery, but again, things have changed. There are certainly regional biases. I wouldn't do DO personally because I wouldn't want to deal with OMM stuff. You may have overall more options but as mentioned there are biases against it. Also, the DOs I've known had to set up their own clinical rotations; that could be changing, I don't know.
Fellowship because I like technical and intricate surgery on people who get better but still have big surgeries and a critical care aspect.

Favorite procedure - anytime the surgery is beautiful and flows and the patient does well! Some days that's a gallbladder, some days, that's merely a DLDC. I actually don't like hemicolectomies that much, which is probably partially why I don't think I'll do straight-up general surgery (or colorectal) in the US. Altemeiers and are pretty fun, though.
As a brand new attending I had never done an altemeier nor had the resident who found a good candidate for one. I fessed up as to our lack of experience and offered her a referral (out of town because at the time no one else was colorectal in town). She like us so much she wanted to stick with us though. So we watched some you tube videos and read some papers then did a wonderfully smooth procedure and patient was so very happy. That was pretty cool. My absolute favorite thing is draining big pus volcanoes. Nice ivda deltoid abscesses, prepatellar bursa brimming with pus, ripe breast abscesses, etc. Just so satisfying to see the pus shoot out and then suck it all up, bam they feel so much better. I don't like butt pus as much due to the smell issue (MRSA abscesses don't smell very much) but it is still fairly satisfying.
 
As a brand new attending I had never done an altemeier nor had the resident who found a good candidate for one. I fessed up as to our lack of experience and offered her a referral (out of town because at the time no one else was colorectal in town). She like us so much she wanted to stick with us though. So we watched some you tube videos and read some papers then did a wonderfully smooth procedure and patient was so very happy. That was pretty cool. My absolute favorite thing is draining big pus volcanoes. Nice ivda deltoid abscesses, prepatellar bursa brimming with pus, ripe breast abscesses, etc. Just so satisfying to see the pus shoot out and then suck it all up, bam they feel so much better. I don't like butt pus as much due to the smell issue (MRSA abscesses don't smell very much) but it is still fairly satisfying.

That's awesome! I find the planes in Altemeiers to be mentally tricky. Can't imagine doing my first one solo.

And abscess drainage is so satisfying to everyone involved! The first patient who ever recognized me outside of the hospital setting was one I had drained a large buttock abscess on....haha, he remembered me but I didn't recall him. As soon as he said, "You drained that boil...down there..." I knew him, though, and said "Oh, yeah!" a little too enthusiastically. A little embarrassing for me because I'm sure he realized I didn't recall his face, but I definitely recalled his buttock abscess! But he was so grateful.
 
This has been a really informative thread. Thank you to the OP for starting it and to all contributors as well.

I think general surgery often times gets an unfair bad rap. There are some general surgeons who are miserable and some residencies that aren't stellar, but there are also lots of general surgeons who have a fulfilling life and job and residencies that don't suck 100%.
 
I work in the operating room and a couple of years ago I was speaking with the general surgery chief resident in the hallway right after I decided to pursue medicine. I asked him what the hardest part of his career had been thus far, and he told me that getting into med school was his toughest challenge. Now, I know this is a very subjective question, but what would you say has been the hardest part of your career so far?
 
I work in the operating room and a couple of years ago I was speaking with the general surgery chief resident in the hallway right after I decided to pursue medicine. I asked him what the hardest part of his career had been thus far, and he told me that getting into med school was his toughest challenge. Now, I know this is a very subjective question, but what would you say has been the hardest part of your career so far?


There have been some specific patient/patient family interactions that have been the most difficult. In general, it's tough to have an undesirable outcome. Period. Tough on the patient and their family, first and we should never lose that perspective; but it's also tough on the surgeon. It's also challenging have an undesired outcome and be vitriolically blamed for it even if it's not actually your fault or if there is nothing else that you could have done or, even knowing what you know now, would have done differently. Some days, it's as difficult being right as it would be to be wrong. Also, sitting down with parents of kids/teenagers and telling them their child is dead or dying and we can't stop it is challenging.
 
What is your advice for a student thinking about gen surg? I am a prospective med student, and I've known I want to do surgery but have heard very mixed things about gen surg. I am also likely doing the Navy HSPS which means I will work for the Navy after completing my training. I am keeping an open mind, as I know I have plenty of time and will get more exposure with clinical rotations but I would love any advice.
 
How often do you get complex cases and what does a complex case look like?

Is there a scientific process that goes with surgery or is it rote?
 
What is your advice for a student thinking about gen surg? I am a prospective med student, and I've known I want to do surgery but have heard very mixed things about gen surg. I am also likely doing the Navy HSPS which means I will work for the Navy after completing my training. I am keeping an open mind, as I know I have plenty of time and will get more exposure with clinical rotations but I would love any advice.


My general advice is don't....But then my general advice would be don't go to med school in the first place - much of that due to financial reasons (which would be different for you if doing the HSPS than most), but also the long training course, hours, culture, emotional burden, and litigation risk. It's a high risk, high reward. (I do, most of the time, find it personally rewarding but it has been physically, mentally and so far financially draining).

Otherwise, keep your options open. Keep an open mind. Evaluate yourself and your priorities. Evaluate why you want to do surgery. Many people are drawn to it for glamour or prestige or for image reasons, but at the end of the day it's often a thankless and glamourless job. Do you have identifiable career/personal goals that surgery will fulfill/help you attain? What are your family goals/lifestyle goals? Who are you, what do you want, and why?

Academically, work hard and learn all you can from anyone you can. General surgery is a very broad field. Develop other interests, good relationships, and a thick skin.

Also, eat when you can. Sleep when you can.

And don't mess with the pancreas.
 
Did you think you would go into surgery before or at the start of med school or was it something you considered only once you started rotating?
 
How often do you get complex cases and what does a complex case look like?

Is there a scientific process that goes with surgery or is it rote?


"The only routine surgery is surgery that is done on someone else......and it's never just 'someone else.' It's always someone's wife, someone's dad, someone's friend." - Don't know who told me this, but it's true. There is no such thing as simple - even if it's something that you've done hundreds of similar cases, every surgery/procedure has risks. "Easy" cases easily become complex in a myriad of ways:
1. Surgical planning/Preoperative
a. Patient comorbidities are always increasing - and it's never the patient's fault and in their minds, it's up to you the surgeon to offer the same surgery to the obese, smoking, anticoagulated 85 year old as to the marathon-running 20 year old.
b. Timing can be challenging. Sure, it's a colon cancer - but wait, is it a newly diagnosed near obstructing left sided colon cancer? So, we going to stent or resect first, or at all? Will the stent be a bridge or palliation? And are you sure it's only near obstructing? Are those mets? Maybe, but too small to biopsy. What do we do now? What about that EF of 20%? Or oh, it's diverticulitis - maybe the scan looks terrible and the patient looks fine - you taking them to the OR or you watching? Or the scan looks ok but man, the heart rate's higher than you want and is that actually rebound or are they really that tender? Watch or call your attending in at 0200 for a negative exploration? You got to do the right operation for the right person at the right time to have the 'right' outcome.
c. Simultaneously too much and too little information. We are inundated with images, reports, labs, consultant opinions, and ever-changing guidelines. At the same time, there is always that chance you'll miss that key lab or report or that some photocopied sheet in some back-of-chart hidey hole. The patient will deny any knowledge of any medical problem or surgery or medication,
2. Intraoperative
a. Anatomy, anatomy, anatomy - That 'straightforward' gallbladder becomes worryingly complex when you have aberrant anatomy. And every sigmoid I start thinking about the ureter from the moment we start...
b. Inflammation - I've done lap appendectomies in sub-15minutes....and in >2 hours. Gallbladders and appendices are often thought of as 'intern' cases - but add in lots of inflammation and days or weeks of neglect or infection and it's enough to make even seasoned attendings grit their teeth
c. System dynamics - it takes lots of moving parts to get a patient safely to and through surgery. One of those parts fail, and you have unexpected complexity on your hands. Can't find the right stapler? Great, hand sewn anastomosis it is. What do you mean you can't find the laparoscopic needle drivers - how am I going to Graham patch this now? No, I need that clip and I need it now, we're bleeding.
3. Post operative
a. Patient motivation/compliance - sometimes the most 'complex' thing about a case is getting the patient to walk/eat/take their meds.
b. Nursing care - Getting labs, I/Os, appropriate notifications at the appropriate times and all of this when nurses can be 'floating' or caring for 8 patients or have never seen this surgery or this line or tube before is always complex.


In terms of 'big whacks' - it depends on the service. Are you talking vascular, gen surg, thoracic?
As a chief, on my most recent service, I operated 3-7 days a week and usually 1 'big whack' (up to 5 'big whacks'....it was a long day) per day. Typically thought of cases like this are whipples, hepatectomies, LARs, etc.

//////
Don't know what you mean by 'scientific process' or rote. Usually have heard 'scientific process' meaning more make and test a hypothesis, etc. There is, of course, a great deal of 'scientific' research that goes on in surgery. Lots of good (and not so good) journals.

My goal for surgeries is to do it the same way, every time, and have it go perfectly every time. But, as mentioned, anatomy, comorbidities, and many other factors require constant attention and innovation to get the same great results on different patients.
 
"The only routine surgery is surgery that is done on someone else......and it's never just 'someone else.' It's always someone's wife, someone's dad, someone's friend." - Don't know who told me this, but it's true. There is no such thing as simple - even if it's something that you've done hundreds of similar cases, every surgery/procedure has risks. "Easy" cases easily become complex in a myriad of ways:
1. Surgical planning/Preoperative
a. Patient comorbidities are always increasing - and it's never the patient's fault and in their minds, it's up to you the surgeon to offer the same surgery to the obese, smoking, anticoagulated 85 year old as to the marathon-running 20 year old.
b. Timing can be challenging. Sure, it's a colon cancer - but wait, is it a newly diagnosed near obstructing left sided colon cancer? So, we going to stent or resect first, or at all? Will the stent be a bridge or palliation? And are you sure it's only near obstructing? Are those mets? Maybe, but too small to biopsy. What do we do now? What about that EF of 20%? Or oh, it's diverticulitis - maybe the scan looks terrible and the patient looks fine - you taking them to the OR or you watching? Or the scan looks ok but man, the heart rate's higher than you want and is that actually rebound or are they really that tender? Watch or call your attending in at 0200 for a negative exploration? You got to do the right operation for the right person at the right time to have the 'right' outcome.
c. Simultaneously too much and too little information. We are inundated with images, reports, labs, consultant opinions, and ever-changing guidelines. At the same time, there is always that chance you'll miss that key lab or report or that some photocopied sheet in some back-of-chart hidey hole. The patient will deny any knowledge of any medical problem or surgery or medication,
2. Intraoperative
a. Anatomy, anatomy, anatomy - That 'straightforward' gallbladder becomes worryingly complex when you have aberrant anatomy. And every sigmoid I start thinking about the ureter from the moment we start...
b. Inflammation - I've done lap appendectomies in sub-15minutes....and in >2 hours. Gallbladders and appendices are often thought of as 'intern' cases - but add in lots of inflammation and days or weeks of neglect or infection and it's enough to make even seasoned attendings grit their teeth
c. System dynamics - it takes lots of moving parts to get a patient safely to and through surgery. One of those parts fail, and you have unexpected complexity on your hands. Can't find the right stapler? Great, hand sewn anastomosis it is. What do you mean you can't find the laparoscopic needle drivers - how am I going to Graham patch this now? No, I need that clip and I need it now, we're bleeding.
3. Post operative
a. Patient motivation/compliance - sometimes the most 'complex' thing about a case is getting the patient to walk/eat/take their meds.
b. Nursing care - Getting labs, I/Os, appropriate notifications at the appropriate times and all of this when nurses can be 'floating' or caring for 8 patients or have never seen this surgery or this line or tube before is always complex.


In terms of 'big whacks' - it depends on the service. Are you talking vascular, gen surg, thoracic?
As a chief, on my most recent service, I operated 3-7 days a week and usually 1 'big whack' (up to 5 'big whacks'....it was a long day) per day. Typically thought of cases like this are whipples, hepatectomies, LARs, etc.

//////
Don't know what you mean by 'scientific process' or rote. Usually have heard 'scientific process' meaning more make and test a hypothesis, etc. There is, of course, a great deal of 'scientific' research that goes on in surgery. Lots of good (and not so good) journals.

My goal for surgeries is to do it the same way, every time, and have it go perfectly every time. But, as mentioned, anatomy, comorbidities, and many other factors require constant attention and innovation to get the same great results on different patients.
This is such a beautiful description of surgery and makes it sound a lot more dynamic than I always imagined it. Thank you.
 
Did you think you would go into surgery before or at the start of med school or was it something you considered only once you started rotating?


Planned on doing surgery since I was a kid. Only reason I went to medical school was to be a surgeon. I really enjoyed just about all my rotations (only exceptions of psych and neuro), but couldn't do anything other than surgery.
 
Planned on doing surgery since I was a kid. Only reason I went to medical school was to be a surgeon. I really enjoyed just about all my rotations (only exceptions of psych and neuro), but couldn't do anything other than surgery.

Oh wow awesome. So I have a similar situation in that I am almost certain that I want to go into a particular specialty as ive studied it since high school (from research and clinical exp). Would you say that you were in the small minority of your class that knew what they wanted to do(and also stuck with it)?

And when you were applying to med schools (from your application essays to interviews), did you also display a strong interest at that point as well?
 
Oh wow awesome. So I have a similar situation in that I am almost certain that I want to go into a particular specialty. Would you say that you were in the small minority of your class that knew what they wanted to do(and also stuck with it)?

And when you were applying to med schools (from your application essays to interviews), did you also display a strong interest at that point as well?


Maybe 30-40% knew and ended up going into the same or pretty similar specialty. Maybe 80% had the general distinction of surgery v. medicine type pretty well figured out before hand. There is research on this topic, but I'm too lazy/tired to find it right now.
But even though I knew I was a surgeon type, I didn't know exactly what type....and didn't decide to do a fellowship until several years into residency when I rotated on that subspecialty. So, even being pretty focused on surgery, there were still a few twists and turns to my path.

Mentioned working with my hands in my med school apps, but beyond that it didn't really come up. Also got accepted pretty early to the school I wanted, so cancelled my other interviews/apps after that.
 
Maybe 30-40% knew and ended up going into the same or pretty similar specialty. Maybe 80% had the general distinction of surgery v. medicine type pretty well figured out before hand. There is research on this topic, but I'm too lazy/tired to find it right now.
But even though I knew I was a surgeon type, I didn't know exactly what type....and didn't decide to do a fellowship until several years into residency when I rotated on that subspecialty. So, even being pretty focused on surgery, there were still a few twists and turns to my path.

Mentioned working with my hands in my med school apps, but beyond that it didn't really come up. Also got accepted pretty early to the school I wanted, so cancelled my other interviews/apps after that.

Oh gotcha! What made you pursue that school in particular? And do you also do any research on the side? And last question, if you ever had the option of picking a second specialty, what would interest you (outside of surgery)?
 
Oh gotcha! What made you pursue that school in particular? And do you also do any research on the side? And last question, if you ever had the option of picking a second specialty, what would interest you (outside of surgery)?

Cheapest option I applied to (state school), decent reputation, close to family.

Did tons of undergrad/medical school research for fun. Have required research in residency.

Outside of surgery/surgery subspecialties, I would not have gone to medical school. I love operating; medicine without operating isn't worth it in any capacity......Don't know what I'd do if not surgery. May run a farm or maybe get a PhD in math or music theory/composition or organic chemistry for fun. Maybe be an auto mechanic, electrician, woodworker, or luthier. Academic translation would be a possibility. Don't know. Guess it's a good thing surgery keeps me busy.
 
GS is supposed to be the most miserable residency of them all, but many of the other surgical residencies are bad. And internal medicine is bad.
As an IM resident, I would agree that IM is bad. But where I am GS is at another level. These people are always sleeping in the physicians' lounge couch/sofa. They look tired as hell.
 
It depends on the person and what they want and what they consider an awful work-life balance.

I know surgeons who work 50 hours a week and think it's too much. I know surgeons who work over 90 hours a week and think they have a pretty good work-life balance.
It's interesting how you think that a 25-35% longer workweek than what most people work in the US is short. Do you know what's the reason behind the long hours for GS? Why can't an attending set their hours and work 35-40 hours/week? The hours create burnout, stress and prevent many talented people from becoming great surgeons.
 
It's interesting how you think that a 25-35% longer workweek than what most people work in the US is short. Do you know what's the reason behind the long hours for GS? Why can't an attending set their hours and work 35-40 hours/week? The hours create burnout, stress and prevent many talented people from becoming great surgeons.
We can set our hours if we are in the right situation, I certainly do. But you work less and you earn less which for some isn't acceptable (then you have the folks who have no outside life and choose to work so much because that is what they enjoy most)
 
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