General Trend: Pharmacists are rejecting PGY2 residencies and even PGY1

[VA77]

Why should a hospital ignore supply/demand to make random internet people happy?

If I’ve got dozens and dozens of applications for any job, I’m going to price that wage as low as I can go.

I ain’t no commie.

Yeap. That's why I'm never for limiting items for sale. Like the deal for baby formula, jack the price up until demand declines. Pure capitalism.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Bro. I had no idea baby formula was hard to find. I'm going to buy all that **** I can and make mad profits. Finally recoup some of that money I lose to you breeding ****s.

 

[KidPharmD]

Why don't residencies pay pharmacists the same as a regular staff pharmacist? I'd like to see how many residency programs there are if the pay was the same.

Partially because a large part of PGY1 reimbursement comes from federal funding. PGY2 funding comes mostly from the justification of service expansion that PGY2's can provide. A residency program also creates a lot of work for other pharmacists, so you aren't really adding a full FTE worth of capability because of all of the time that is taken from other pharmacists to manage the program. If we were really getting a lot of cheap work out of our residents, we would have expanded our program by 2 or three times in the last few years instead of hiring new pharmacists.

 

[VA77]

Bro. I had no idea baby formula was hard to find. I'm going to buy all that **** I can and make mad profits. Finally recoup some of that money I lose to you breeding ****s.

Yeap same as those guys did with hand sanitizer at beginning of Covid.

 

[Dred Pirate]

You didn't answer my question. Are new grads making more than the 10+ year guys/gals?

data point of 1 - our new grads are making low 50's- I am 18 years out making 72. Our 10 year people are somewhere in the middle - so no, not even close

 

[Dred Pirate]

Why don't residencies pay pharmacists the same as a regular staff pharmacist? I'd like to see how many residency programs there are if the pay was the same.

that would simply not make sense- you don't get a net gain of a full FTE of rph work out of a resident - between the time it takes to administer the program, teach, etc. Physician residencies get more work percentage wise out of a resident than rph's - at least at my institute- I am one of the rare ones who get a lot more staffing done out of their rotation that others. The downfall is you only have a resident 4 of the 12 months, so you still have to maintain the same level of "regular staffing"

 

[confettiflyer]

Bro. I had no idea baby formula was hard to find. I'm going to buy all that **** I can and make mad profits. Finally recoup some of that money I lose to you breeding ****s.

And with abortion bans on the horizon + SNAP benefits = increased demand for product.

 

[confettiflyer]

Partially because a large part of PGY1 reimbursement comes from federal funding. PGY2 funding comes mostly from the justification of service expansion that PGY2's can provide. A residency program also creates a lot of work for other pharmacists, so you aren't really adding a full FTE worth of capability because of all of the time that is taken from other pharmacists to manage the program. If we were really getting a lot of cheap work out of our residents, we would have expanded our program by 2 or three times in the last few years instead of hiring new pharmacists.

Pfff. Residency-haterZ don’t want to hear facts, they want to hear that their chosen path was the superior one, because schadenfreude.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Yeap same as those guys did with hand sanitizer at beginning of Covid.

Yeah, but that affected people. Babies aren't people. They can't even hold a job.

 

[TeddyBoomBoom]

I find this disheartening. I’m an ER doc, but during residency for my ICU rotations we had a pharmacist rounding with us as well some pharmacy residents. They were were super sharp and I legitimately believe the post grad training was beneficial both for us and them.

I totally get not wanting to spend extra time to make less money, but I’m sad it worked out that way. I learned a lot from my hospital pharmacists, and try express my appreciation/respect when I can. 🤷

 

[Dred Pirate]

I find this disheartening. I’m an ER doc, but during residency for my ICU rotations we had a pharmacist rounding with us as well some pharmacy residents. They were were super sharp and I legitimately believe the post grad training was beneficial both for us and them.

I totally get not wanting to spend extra time to make less money, but I’m sad it worked out that way. I learned a lot from my hospital pharmacists, and try express my appreciation/respect when I can. 🤷

I am an Ed pharmacist I honestly I don’t think you will ever have issues finding people to work these shifts. We get tons of applicants that have put in the extra years. I honestly would get so bored doing a “basement job” where all I did was check product, plus. 10 years from now most of those jobs will be done by techs with a bar code reader.

 

[PikminOC]

Why don't residencies pay pharmacists the same as a regular staff pharmacist? I'd like to see how many residency programs there are if the pay was the same.

Who funds the pharmacy residencies? Is it the government like Physicians? Then it's our tax dollas.

 

[APN-59 rph]

Why should a hospital ignore supply/demand to make random internet people happy?

If I’ve got dozens and dozens of applications for any job, I’m going to price that wage as low as I can go.

I ain’t no commie.

I worked for that type many moons ago...at the Vaaah..What no one knew is that I started my mis-spent youth as a G..I and had some time as a LEO (where ya write every thing down..ya know) And write I did...snotty veteran jokes.....certain choices....constant loafing etc. And on my last day I had a nice little chat with personnel....with copious notes.....I totally lucked out...Ignored a professor enough to pass the boards first try..jobs going begging....pay up and up...one place was high speed drudgery...the next.....I planned a deck...now I do a little relief IF badly needed...The WAG's manager down the road a piece walked out with no warning a few weeks ago...

 

[Strudel]

Why don't residencies pay pharmacists the same as a regular staff pharmacist? I'd like to see how many residency programs there are if the pay was the same.

It's tough to justify paying a resident as much as a staff pharmacist if they are functioning at less than 33% of a staff RPH capacity. In April, our residents still "weren't comfortable" processing IV orders or handling Vancomycin dosing. My program may be an exception though...

 

[mentos]

It's tough to justify paying a resident as much as a staff pharmacist if they are functioning at less than 33% of a staff RPH capacity. In April, our residents still "weren't comfortable" processing IV orders or handling Vancomycin dosing. My program may be an exception though...

What's the difference between a new grad staff pharmacist and a resident?

 

[KidPharmD]

Who funds the pharmacy residencies? Is it the government like Physicians? Then it's our tax dollas.

Federal funding is used for our PGY1 residencies. However, no federal funding is available for PGY2 specialty residencies.

It's tough to justify paying a resident as much as a staff pharmacist if they are functioning at less than 33% of a staff RPH capacity. In April, our residents still "weren't comfortable" processing IV orders or handling Vancomycin dosing. My program may be an exception though...

That sounds like a problem with your program. Our residents are expected to do both independently by the end of July.

 

[PikminOC]

Federal funding is used for our PGY1 residencies. However, no federal funding is available for PGY2 specialty residencies.

That sounds like a problem with your program. Our residents are expected to do both independently by the end of July.

Do pgy 2 get paid then?

 

[KidPharmD]

Do pgy 2 get paid then?

Yes, but from the hospital's budget just as if it was any other pharmacist position. That's once of the reasons there are so many fewer PGY2 spots than PGY1 spots.

 

[PikminOC]

Yes, but from the hospital's budget just as if it was any other pharmacist position. That's once of the reasons there are so many fewer PGY2 spots than PGY1 spots.

So they pay pharmacist salary for that?

 

[KidPharmD]

So they pay pharmacist salary for that?

No, less. PGY2 stipend is usually between 50-60k. It's just justified like it was a usual position (same process from the hospital's budget standpoint).

 

[Rockinacoustic]

What's the difference between a new grad staff pharmacist and a resident?

If both suck, only one is stuck on your payroll after a year

 

[confettiflyer]

What's the difference between a new grad staff pharmacist and a resident?

You can let the resident go much easier at the end of the year if they suck.

Basically, getting rid of new grad staff requires a full on divorce, while you can just ghost a resident.

 

[Dred Pirate]

You can let the resident go much easier at the end of the year if they suck.

Basically, getting rid of new grad staff requires a full on divorce, while you can just ghost a resident.

but then they end up crying in your office when you don't give them the job (and you re-post it for other applicants) - ask me how I know this....

 

[Rockinacoustic]

but then they end up crying in your office when you don't give them the job (and you re-post it for other applicants) - ask me how I know this....

The sweet spot is having a residency program where you train people you'd want to hire... and advertise that 100% post-grad job placement rate to prospective applicants

 

[lord999]

Yeah I'm going to echo BC89 above. Pharmacy was my second career with a BS is CS and almost 20 years in IT in multiple positions at hospital and colleges. I wanted to try to get into informatics but I always ran into the residency roadblock. Residency is a pay to play sick game where you 'give' two years of labor on top of the money and time already invested in school. Residency has turned into a limited privilege for a few because even if you did want to take a decreased salary there just aren't enough spots for all the candidates especially niche fields.

Unfortunate, I wish I could have taken you as a fellow, as you could have kept your day job and trained on an OT budget like the four of us in the NIH postdoc at the time. We thought we were crazy back then, but it turned out to be awesome and still better than residencies.

Partially because a large part of PGY1 reimbursement comes from federal funding. PGY2 funding comes mostly from the justification of service expansion that PGY2's can provide. A residency program also creates a lot of work for other pharmacists, so you aren't really adding a full FTE worth of capability because of all of the time that is taken from other pharmacists to manage the program. If we were really getting a lot of cheap work out of our residents, we would have expanded our program by 2 or three times in the last few years instead of hiring new pharmacists.

Except Nuclear. Nuclear is allowed full funding for the entirety of the program as the entire point of the BPS was for that program to start. And CMS GME DGME funding was only in the last 12 years or so (~2010). Before then, it was based on staffing/internal funding.

PGY2 funding is usually through the indirects (GME IME) even now, even justifying service expansions.

And, some programs actually expanded specifically for that reason in terms of staffing. That's gone away to a large extent, but there are vestigial elements particularly in non-academic health center situations.

 

[workingfarmer]

Board certification is a great indicator that someone can jam through 120 CE hours in the final year of a 7 year certification cycle

Im talking about about getting you through thwe door of a non-retail environment..
Even MSL positions are seeing the value of board certiifications and most of those jobs are remote and make your own schedule.....yes CE hours are pain in the ass but weighing pros and cons here

 

[workingfarmer]

Unfortunate, I wish I could have taken you as a fellow, as you could have kept your day job and trained on an OT budget like the four of us in the NIH postdoc at the time. We thought we were crazy back then, but it turned out to be awesome and still better than residencies.



Except Nuclear. Nuclear is allowed full funding for the entirety of the program as the entire point of the BPS was for that program to start. And CMS GME DGME funding was only in the last 12 years or so (~2010). Before then, it was based on staffing/internal funding.

PGY2 funding is usually through the indirects (GME IME) even now, even justifying service expansions.

And, some programs actually expanded specifically for that reason in terms of staffing. That's gone away to a large extent, but there are vestigial elements particularly in non-academic health center situations.

Is the NIH option still open to current VA employees?

 

[baronzb]

that would simply not make sense- you don't get a net gain of a full FTE of rph work out of a resident - between the time it takes to administer the program, teach, etc. Physician residencies get more work percentage wise out of a resident than rph's - at least at my institute- I am one of the rare ones who get a lot more staffing done out of their rotation that others. The downfall is you only have a resident 4 of the 12 months, so you still have to maintain the same level of "regular staffing"

In the government, say PHS, having a resident adds to promotion and resume building, regardless of the lack of productivity.
I think in larger hospitals, it reinforces nerdism.

 

[nampa]

Also less students are applying to schools... Hmm, I wonder why.

I'm confused, ASHP doesn't employee any rphs or own any clinics; how does it mandate anything? I assumed that the proliferation of residents, especially at large academic hospitals, flooded the market with overqualified individuals working in hospital. I have noticed that once the director is one of these, he tries to mimic the academic hospital setting onto a normal hospital. I'm shocked they are allowed to do this by administration. Pharmacy is already taunt budgets.
I'm aware of a rural W. Texas hospital that has only one full-time rph in pharmacy, with five on floors that must be pulled back to central pharmacy several times a day for minimum hospital functioning.