Getting a PhD from an online program

[deleted343839]

Could it be possible that some psychologists are using 'poor practices' because they don't believe in the instruments they use (ie self-report measures)...

You seem to have a peculiar idea about how these instruments are used in clinical practice. I see patients from time to time who have been "diagnosed" by an outside clinician (typically not a psychologist) based mainly on a self-report measure. This isn't how we're trained to practice, though. Self-report measures have their role, but they don't take the place of a clinical interview, behavioral observations, and collateral information (when available). You choose your measures for a clinic patient deliberately, just as you would to answer a research question. In my area of practice, I personally find self-report instruments most useful for treatment monitoring over time and screening for low-base-rate behaviors. If I see a discrepancy between what the patient is telling me and what they endorse on a self-report instrument, we talk about it. But in general I believe in my instruments and the science behind them. I can't think of a good reason to use them otherwise!

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[Justanothergrad]

I like the logic of ' psychologists shouldn't use assessments because they perform so poorly in diagnostic/behavioral prediction and its for this reason that I prefer to rely on clinical judgement as a 'best practice' in diagnosis. '

That's just a real gem of empirically-based thinking.

 

[barryggg]

I like the logic of ' psychologists shouldn't use assessments because they perform so poorly in diagnostic/behavioral prediction and its for this reason that I prefer to rely on clinical judgement as a 'best practice' in diagnosis. '

That's just a real gem of empirically-based thinking.

Where did I write that?

I wrote that it wouldn't be surprising if Psychologists didn't use certain instruments because they perceived that they were of little use. Ie That they rarely conflicted with their clinical judgement.

 

[smalltownpsych]

 

[eLearner]

I know this is an old thread, but I wanted to add some thoughts that I feel fit here perfectly instead of starting a new one.

From reading around this forum, there seems to be a pretty staunch anti-online learning stance. Given that, I wonder what many here think of Harvard's many online degree programs including their Masters in Psychology? I have serious doubts that their programs are subpar, it is Harvard after all, and I'd wager that many detractors didn't go to a school nearly as good/prestigious as Harvard (neither did I, btw). Obviously, all of these programs are not on the level of a Harvard, but I mention that because this approach of throwing the baby out with the bathwater just isn't rational and should be replaced with a more rational approach of examining things on a case-by-case basis.

Programming may be the most difficult thing to do on planet earth and I learned to program entirely online and earned a degree in Computer Science online. I hear the argument that online learning lacks hands-on experience, but the school I learned from actually used a live video system, and for our robotics elective we were able to interact with the Professor live while controlling the robotic parts via computer through the internet the same as we would have if we were sitting in the physical classroom. Through that degree, I earned a credited position at Electronic Arts working on one of their largest games. I earned three separate contracts with them (for the same game).

I mention that experience because I think many people who are so vehemently against online learning are often people who are unaware of the fact that much of what they claim are limitations of online learning have already been defeated by various technologies, granted, some schools use them and some schools don't. Others are people who've never even actually taken an online college course before or took a bad one and therefore categorize them all as bad.

Now, I'm not going to say that most programs have a setup like the one I had for my programming education, but I am aware of others. One I saw recently was AchievePrep for RNs that uses a similar tech setup to the one I mentioned going through. What's astonishing is that while there are detractors, those programs are turning out professionals with comparable and often higher licensing exam pass rates as those that learned in a physical classroom setting. I'm of the belief that if the goal and necessity is to become licensed, the program you took is legally recognized as making you eligible to take the licensing exam, and you pass that exam, then you are qualified in your field. How you obtained that knowledge is irrelevant (as long as it meets the requirements), all that matters is that you obtained it. And that brings me to my last point of thought:

I agree 100% with those who say that a degree in Clinical Psychology that doesn't mandate residency (California Southen University comes to mind) is certainly questionable, but if one does the residency is it still just as questionable? I saw an extreme response to it from one poster saying that "I don't recommend any therapists with a degree earned online, the minute I see it possibly came from an online program I ignore their listing" but, should all online programs of its kind be dismissed? Even ones that come from some of the best schools on the planet? Even the ones that require the same residency period as a 100% physical classroom program? They are out there after all, in fact I saw one Doctoral Psychology program that was 180+ credits with a crazy long residency requirement, so even those should be dismissed?

With practically every school on the planet offering online education, I just worry that the old guard of thinking--while well-meaning--is doing a lot of dismissing without much if any fair examination of individual cases.

 

[Mindfulpsych22]

I know this is an old thread, but I wanted to add some thoughts that I feel fit here perfectly instead of starting a new one.

From reading around this forum, there seems to be a pretty staunch anti-online learning stance. Given that, I wonder what many here think of Harvard's many online degree programs including their Masters in Psychology? I have serious doubts that their programs are subpar, it is Harvard after all, and I'd wager that many detractors didn't go to a school nearly as good/prestigious as Harvard (neither did I, btw). Obviously, all of these programs are not on the level of a Harvard, but I mention that because this approach of throwing the baby out with the bathwater just isn't rational and should be replaced with a more rational approach of examining things on a case-by-case basis.

Programming may be the most difficult thing to do on planet earth and I learned to program entirely online and earned a degree in Computer Science online. I hear the argument that online learning lacks hands-on experience, but the school I learned from actually used a live video system, and for our robotics elective we were able to interact with the Professor live while controlling the robotic parts via computer through the internet the same as we would have if we were sitting in the physical classroom. Through that degree, I earned a credited position at Electronic Arts working on one of their largest games. I earned three separate contracts with them (for the same game).

I mention that experience because I think many people who are so vehemently against online learning are often people who are unaware of the fact that much of what they claim are limitations of online learning have already been defeated by various technologies, granted, some schools use them and some schools don't. Others are people who've never even actually taken an online college course before or took a bad one and therefore categorize them all as bad.

Now, I'm not going to say that most programs have a setup like the one I had for my programming education, but I am aware of others. One I saw recently was AchievePrep for RNs that uses a similar tech setup to the one I mentioned going through. What's astonishing is that while there are detractors, those programs are turning out professionals with comparable and often higher licensing exam pass rates as those that learned in a physical classroom setting. I'm of the belief that if the goal and necessity is to become licensed, the program you took is legally recognized as making you eligible to take the licensing exam, and you pass that exam, then you are qualified in your field. How you obtained that knowledge is irrelevant (as long as it meets the requirements), all that matters is that you obtained it. And that brings me to my last point of thought:

I agree 100% with those who say that a degree in Clinical Psychology that doesn't mandate residency (California Southen University comes to mind) is certainly questionable, but if one does the residency is it still just as questionable? I saw an extreme response to it from one poster saying that "I don't recommend any therapists with a degree earned online, the minute I see it possibly came from an online program I ignore their listing" but, should all online programs of its kind be dismissed? Even ones that come from some of the best schools on the planet? Even the ones that require the same residency period as a 100% physical classroom program? They are out there after all, in fact I saw one Doctoral Psychology program that was 180+ credits with a crazy long residency requirement, so even those should be dismissed?

With practically every school on the planet offering online education, I just worry that the old guard of thinking--while well-meaning--is doing a lot of dismissing without much if any fair examination of individual cases.

I think this shows a lack of understanding between education and training in clinical psychology and other fields. For many other fields, reputable online degrees are perfectly acceptable and provide adequate training for those professions/responsibilities. In a clinical ph.d program, coursework is often the least important part of the education and training experience. Hands-on research experience and mentorship, oversight of clinical skills and clinical training, and socialization into the field are main components of training for a clinical psychologist and are much more difficult to accomplish adequately in a distance learning model. I briefly worked part time in a program like what you are referring to (to earn extra cash while finishing other prep for grad school) before going to my grad program and I can say for a fact that many components are grossly inadequate. Students leave with almost no research experience, understanding of methods/statistics, and it is much more difficult for the school to monitor the practicum placements of their students to ensure that they are getting good training. It is also very difficult to get adequate mentorship.

Not to be harsh, but posts that typically defend online training for doctoral level clinical psychology usually just illuminate that the poster has very little understanding of what graduate training in clinical psychology is all about.i see this to be the case here

 

[AbnormalPsych]

I saw an extreme response to it from one poster saying that "I don't recommend any therapists with a degree earned online, the minute I see it possibly came from an online program I ignore their listing" but, should all online programs of its kind be dismissed? Even ones that come from some of the best schools on the planet? Even the ones that require the same residency period as a 100% physical classroom program? They are out there after all, in fact I saw one Doctoral Psychology program that was 180+ credits with a crazy long residency requirement, so even those should be dismissed?

With practically every school on the planet offering online education, I just worry that the old guard of thinking--while well-meaning--is doing a lot of dismissing without much if any fair examination of individual cases.

I am not part of the old guard, but have worked in both academia and major healthcare settings. I would still immediately toss an application for any position from any online program, as they are structured today.

I do think online education is a great advancement and can be valuable in some fields and spaces, but not as a healthcare provider, especially a mental health care provider. You can learn the content in an online setting just as well, perhaps even more so for some folks, but at the end of the day there is so much experiential and collaborative learning that takes place in with your peers, advisers, and supervisors that can not be replicated in current online environments and gained by completing readings and assignments. Trainees are socialized into the profession, taught how to think and behave like a scientist and healthcare provider, developed into rounded professionals, conduct and publish original research with their mentors, and gain an appreciation for and the skill to be a clinician - something that takes years and thousands of hours to become remotely competent at, which no class or single residency could do.

 

[counselor2b]

I would also argue that just because a program can get you licensed doesn’t mean that you will be a good clinician. As with your nursing example, it doesn’t mean the program is good, it just means that they may be good at teaching what needs to be known for the NCLEX. The exam itself is not an indicator for how great of a nurse you will be. It demonstrates that you have the knowledge to pass an exam to become licensed as a nurse.

 

[Sanman]

I know this is an old thread, but I wanted to add some thoughts that I feel fit here perfectly instead of starting a new one.

From reading around this forum, there seems to be a pretty staunch anti-online learning stance. Given that, I wonder what many here think of Harvard's many online degree programs including their Masters in Psychology? I have serious doubts that their programs are subpar, it is Harvard after all, and I'd wager that many detractors didn't go to a school nearly as good/prestigious as Harvard (neither did I, btw). Obviously, all of these programs are not on the level of a Harvard, but I mention that because this approach of throwing the baby out with the bathwater just isn't rational and should be replaced with a more rational approach of examining things on a case-by-case basis.

Programming may be the most difficult thing to do on planet earth and I learned to program entirely online and earned a degree in Computer Science online. I hear the argument that online learning lacks hands-on experience, but the school I learned from actually used a live video system, and for our robotics elective we were able to interact with the Professor live while controlling the robotic parts via computer through the internet the same as we would have if we were sitting in the physical classroom. Through that degree, I earned a credited position at Electronic Arts working on one of their largest games. I earned three separate contracts with them (for the same game).

I mention that experience because I think many people who are so vehemently against online learning are often people who are unaware of the fact that much of what they claim are limitations of online learning have already been defeated by various technologies, granted, some schools use them and some schools don't. Others are people who've never even actually taken an online college course before or took a bad one and therefore categorize them all as bad.

Now, I'm not going to say that most programs have a setup like the one I had for my programming education, but I am aware of others. One I saw recently was AchievePrep for RNs that uses a similar tech setup to the one I mentioned going through. What's astonishing is that while there are detractors, those programs are turning out professionals with comparable and often higher licensing exam pass rates as those that learned in a physical classroom setting. I'm of the belief that if the goal and necessity is to become licensed, the program you took is legally recognized as making you eligible to take the licensing exam, and you pass that exam, then you are qualified in your field. How you obtained that knowledge is irrelevant (as long as it meets the requirements), all that matters is that you obtained it. And that brings me to my last point of thought:

I agree 100% with those who say that a degree in Clinical Psychology that doesn't mandate residency (California Southen University comes to mind) is certainly questionable, but if one does the residency is it still just as questionable? I saw an extreme response to it from one poster saying that "I don't recommend any therapists with a degree earned online, the minute I see it possibly came from an online program I ignore their listing" but, should all online programs of its kind be dismissed? Even ones that come from some of the best schools on the planet? Even the ones that require the same residency period as a 100% physical classroom program? They are out there after all, in fact I saw one Doctoral Psychology program that was 180+ credits with a crazy long residency requirement, so even those should be dismissed?

With practically every school on the planet offering online education, I just worry that the old guard of thinking--while well-meaning--is doing a lot of dismissing without much if any fair examination of individual cases.

1. Programming is not the most difficult thing to do on earth, far from it. I learned programming language from books at my library back in the day.

2. That nurse may have passed the licensing exam. Will you do me a favor? Stick your arm out for that nurse from the online only course and let him/her take your blood. Then let him/her insert a urinary catheter for you. You do those two things and think that the nurses are equivalent and you will have my attention.

3. I've decided that all the pro online course folks have changed my mind. So go get your online doctorate. Make sure to take out the maximum allowable level of student loans so that you can live a comfortable existence while in school. Then come back in 10 years and boast of your success so that I may be humbled. Sounds good?

I'm not even aloud to take a CPR refresher course online without a live component test for a skill that I don't use and am already proficient in and these people want online doctorates... lord save us.

 

[WisNeuro]

1. Programming is not the most difficult thing to do on earth, far from it. I learned programming language from books at my library back in the day.

I taught myself a few programming/coding languages to do project design and data analysis for EEG and fMRI data. It is far from the hardest thing that I've had to learn. Honestly, if we're talking about some of the hardest things to do, can we at least add "hit a 100mph fastball?" Now that's an actual difficult thing.

 

[PsyDr]

I know this is an old thread, but I wanted to add some thoughts that I feel fit here perfectly instead of starting a new one.

From reading around this forum, there seems to be a pretty staunch anti-online learning stance. Given that, I wonder what many here think of Harvard's many online degree programs including their Masters in Psychology? I have serious doubts that their programs are subpar, it is Harvard after all, and I'd wager that many detractors didn't go to a school nearly as good/prestigious as Harvard (neither did I, btw). Obviously, all of these programs are not on the level of a Harvard, but I mention that because this approach of throwing the baby out with the bathwater just isn't rational and should be replaced with a more rational approach of examining things on a case-by-case basis.

Programming may be the most difficult thing to do on planet earth and I learned to program entirely online and earned a degree in Computer Science online. I hear the argument that online learning lacks hands-on experience, but the school I learned from actually used a live video system, and for our robotics elective we were able to interact with the Professor live while controlling the robotic parts via computer through the internet the same as we would have if we were sitting in the physical classroom. Through that degree, I earned a credited position at Electronic Arts working on one of their largest games. I earned three separate contracts with them (for the same game).

I mention that experience because I think many people who are so vehemently against online learning are often people who are unaware of the fact that much of what they claim are limitations of online learning have already been defeated by various technologies, granted, some schools use them and some schools don't. Others are people who've never even actually taken an online college course before or took a bad one and therefore categorize them all as bad.

Now, I'm not going to say that most programs have a setup like the one I had for my programming education, but I am aware of others. One I saw recently was AchievePrep for RNs that uses a similar tech setup to the one I mentioned going through. What's astonishing is that while there are detractors, those programs are turning out professionals with comparable and often higher licensing exam pass rates as those that learned in a physical classroom setting. I'm of the belief that if the goal and necessity is to become licensed, the program you took is legally recognized as making you eligible to take the licensing exam, and you pass that exam, then you are qualified in your field. How you obtained that knowledge is irrelevant (as long as it meets the requirements), all that matters is that you obtained it. And that brings me to my last point of thought:

I agree 100% with those who say that a degree in Clinical Psychology that doesn't mandate residency (California Southen University comes to mind) is certainly questionable, but if one does the residency is it still just as questionable? I saw an extreme response to it from one poster saying that "I don't recommend any therapists with a degree earned online, the minute I see it possibly came from an online program I ignore their listing" but, should all online programs of its kind be dismissed? Even ones that come from some of the best schools on the planet? Even the ones that require the same residency period as a 100% physical classroom program? They are out there after all, in fact I saw one Doctoral Psychology program that was 180+ credits with a crazy long residency requirement, so even those should be dismissed?

With practically every school on the planet offering online education, I just worry that the old guard of thinking--while well-meaning--is doing a lot of dismissing without much if any fair examination of individual cases.

And here I was thinking that Harvard doesn’t have that great of a clinical psychology program.

 

[eLearner]

I think this shows a lack of understanding between education and training in clinical psychology and other fields. For many other fields, reputable online degrees are perfectly acceptable and provide adequate training for those professions/responsibilities. In a clinical ph.d program, coursework is often the least important part of the education and training experience. Hands-on research experience and mentorship, oversight of clinical skills and clinical training, and socialization into the field are main components of training for a clinical psychologist and are much more difficult to accomplish adequately in a distance learning model. I briefly worked part time in a program like what you are referring to (to earn extra cash while finishing other prep for grad school) before going to my grad program and I can say for a fact that many components are grossly inadequate. Students leave with almost no research experience, understanding of methods/statistics, and it is much more difficult for the school to monitor the practicum placements of their students to ensure that they are getting good training. It is also very difficult to get adequate mentorship.

Not to be harsh, but posts that typically defend online training for doctoral level clinical psychology usually just illuminate that the poster has very little understanding of what graduate training in clinical psychology is all about.i see this to be the case here

You were rather condescending there and it shows me you didn't really thoroughly read my post or even understand the point for that matter. For example, you said:"Hands-on research experience and mentorship, oversight of clinical skills and clinical training, and socialization into the field are main components of training for a clinical psychologist."

I stated in my initial post: "I agree 100% with those who say that a degree in Clinical Psychology that doesn't mandate residency (California Southen University comes to mind) is certainly questionable, but if one does the residency is it still just as questionable?"

^ So I think I made it perfectly clear that I fully understand the importance of hands-on experience, and that I don't need to be reminded to breath (lol), and I even begged the question that if one receives it can the program still be dismissed? So please, make sure you read carefully before condescending, it will benefit you. Thanks.

 

[psych.meout]

I know this is an old thread, but I wanted to add some thoughts that I feel fit here perfectly instead of starting a new one.

From reading around this forum, there seems to be a pretty staunch anti-online learning stance. Given that, I wonder what many here think of Harvard's many online degree programs including their Masters in Psychology? I have serious doubts that their programs are subpar, it is Harvard after all, and I'd wager that many detractors didn't go to a school nearly as good/prestigious as Harvard (neither did I, btw). Obviously, all of these programs are not on the level of a Harvard, but I mention that because this approach of throwing the baby out with the bathwater just isn't rational and should be replaced with a more rational approach of examining things on a case-by-case basis.

Programming may be the most difficult thing to do on planet earth and I learned to program entirely online and earned a degree in Computer Science online. I hear the argument that online learning lacks hands-on experience, but the school I learned from actually used a live video system, and for our robotics elective we were able to interact with the Professor live while controlling the robotic parts via computer through the internet the same as we would have if we were sitting in the physical classroom. Through that degree, I earned a credited position at Electronic Arts working on one of their largest games. I earned three separate contracts with them (for the same game).

I mention that experience because I think many people who are so vehemently against online learning are often people who are unaware of the fact that much of what they claim are limitations of online learning have already been defeated by various technologies, granted, some schools use them and some schools don't. Others are people who've never even actually taken an online college course before or took a bad one and therefore categorize them all as bad.

Now, I'm not going to say that most programs have a setup like the one I had for my programming education, but I am aware of others. One I saw recently was AchievePrep for RNs that uses a similar tech setup to the one I mentioned going through. What's astonishing is that while there are detractors, those programs are turning out professionals with comparable and often higher licensing exam pass rates as those that learned in a physical classroom setting. I'm of the belief that if the goal and necessity is to become licensed, the program you took is legally recognized as making you eligible to take the licensing exam, and you pass that exam, then you are qualified in your field. How you obtained that knowledge is irrelevant (as long as it meets the requirements), all that matters is that you obtained it. And that brings me to my last point of thought:

I agree 100% with those who say that a degree in Clinical Psychology that doesn't mandate residency (California Southen University comes to mind) is certainly questionable, but if one does the residency is it still just as questionable? I saw an extreme response to it from one poster saying that "I don't recommend any therapists with a degree earned online, the minute I see it possibly came from an online program I ignore their listing" but, should all online programs of its kind be dismissed? Even ones that come from some of the best schools on the planet? Even the ones that require the same residency period as a 100% physical classroom program? They are out there after all, in fact I saw one Doctoral Psychology program that was 180+ credits with a crazy long residency requirement, so even those should be dismissed?

With practically every school on the planet offering online education, I just worry that the old guard of thinking--while well-meaning--is doing a lot of dismissing without much if any fair examination of individual cases.

You were rather condescending there and it shows me you didn't really thoroughly read my post or even understand the point for that matter. For example, you said:"Hands-on research experience and mentorship, oversight of clinical skills and clinical training, and socialization into the field are main components of training for a clinical psychologist."

I stated in my initial post: "I agree 100% with those who say that a degree in Clinical Psychology that doesn't mandate residency (California Southen University comes to mind) is certainly questionable, but if one does the residency is it still just as questionable?"

^ So I think I made it perfectly clear that I fully understand the importance of hands-on experience, and that I don't need to be reminded to breath (lol), and I even begged the question that if one receives it can the program still be dismissed? So please, make sure you read carefully before condescending, it will benefit you. Thanks.

What is this "residency period" of which you speak?

 

[eLearner]

I am not part of the old guard, but have worked in both academia and major healthcare settings. I would still immediately toss an application for any position from any online program, as they are structured today.

I do think online education is a great advancement and can be valuable in some fields and spaces, but not as a healthcare provider, especially a mental health care provider. You can learn the content in an online setting just as well, perhaps even more so for some folks, but at the end of the day there is so much experiential and collaborative learning that takes place in with your peers, advisers, and supervisors that can not be replicated in current online environments and gained by completing readings and assignments. Trainees are socialized into the profession, taught how to think and behave like a scientist and healthcare provider, developed into rounded professionals, conduct and publish original research with their mentors, and gain an appreciation for and the skill to be a clinician - something that takes years and thousands of hours to become remotely competent at, which no class or single residency could do.

Your first paragraph and first 1.5 sentences of your second paragraph are interesting in that the second part skips over an important question: "If one performs the residency (assuming the same amount of time) what then would be the problem?"

It makes perfect sense that a healthcare professional with less hands-on experience is less qualified than one with extensive hands-on clinical experience, that's obvious. But if both received the same amount of clinical experience, what would be the big difference?

 

[eLearner]

I would also argue that just because a program can get you licensed doesn’t mean that you will be a good clinician. As with your nursing example, it doesn’t mean the program is good, it just means that they may be good at teaching what needs to be known for the NCLEX. The exam itself is not an indicator for how great of a nurse you will be. It demonstrates that you have the knowledge to pass an exam to become licensed as a nurse.

I agree. However, in fairness, the question there is, what in any classroom method or exam would determine how great you'll be? There are plenty of terrible Nurses and of Doctors of all modalities who learned everything in a physical classroom and passed all their exams.

 

[cara susanna]

You were rather condescending there and it shows me you didn't really thoroughly read my post or even understand the point for that matter. For example, you said:"Hands-on research experience and mentorship, oversight of clinical skills and clinical training, and socialization into the field are main components of training for a clinical psychologist."

I stated in my initial post: "I agree 100% with those who say that a degree in Clinical Psychology that doesn't mandate residency (California Southen University comes to mind) is certainly questionable, but if one does the residency is it still just as questionable?"

^ So I think I made it perfectly clear that I fully understand the importance of hands-on experience, and that I don't need to be reminded to breath (lol), and I even begged the question that if one receives it can the program still be dismissed? So please, make sure you read carefully before condescending, it will benefit you. Thanks.

IMO, the residencies just aren't long or intensive enough.

 

[eLearner]

1. Programming is not the most difficult thing to do on earth, far from it. I learned programming language from books at my library back in the day.

I said it "may be" not that it definitively is. However, "far from it", ehhh, we'll agree to disagree on that one. Learning a programming language is not the same as being a great programmer. Learning a language is a first step, an important one, but just a first step.

2. That nurse may have passed the licensing exam. Will you do me a favor? Stick your arm out for that nurse from the online only course and let him/her take your blood. Then let him/her insert a urinary catheter for you. You do those two things and think that the nurses are equivalent and you will have my attention.

As far as I know, Nurses have to take physical clinical training to learn that, which is why you can't become an LPN online. So I understand your point it just doesn't actually apply to reality...

3. I've decided that all the pro online course folks have changed my mind. So go get your online doctorate. Make sure to take out the maximum allowable level of student loans so that you can live a comfortable existence while in school. Then come back in 10 years and boast of your success so that I may be humbled. Sounds good?

That was cute, but defeated by my last point.

 

[eLearner]

I taught myself a few programming/coding languages to do project design and data analysis for EEG and fMRI data. It is far from the hardest thing that I've had to learn. Honestly, if we're talking about some of the hardest things to do, can we at least add "hit a 100mph fastball?" Now that's an actual difficult thing.

You may be downplaying your intelligence a bit, modesty is commendable. That said, data programming isn't the most difficult of the fold. Programming AI and doing so in harmony with animation, sound, and graphics (all of which have their own programming disciplines) is monumentally difficult (which is more the type of programming I was referring to) and that's if you plan to do just a basic job of it. Something AAA generally requires teams that are often hundreds of people in size and could never be done by a single person.

 

[eLearner]

IMO, the residencies just aren't long or intensive enough.

That's the kind of thought I'm looking for. What would you say is a more adequate amount? What type of training depth would you say would satisfy your idea of intensity?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

The challenge with online learning isn’t just the lack of proof that the training is equivalent to the traditional training path, but the perception that it is lesser. I’m not saying the latter is fair, but it's a consideration.

I was reviewing apps for a counselor position I’m looking to fill and i’m not going to roll the dice by taking an online student when there are plenty of applicants from traditional programs. It just makes poor business sense and I’m going to default to what I know...a traditional training path.

As for learning...whichever posted wrote/implied that classes were the least important part of training was spot on. Lectures, readings, and tests were all just ways to get the raw info to the student. The true value of that info is when it is put into practice, whether it be during lab time, in practica, and/or with a patient. If i’m completely honest, I learned more on fellowship than my prior years, but I needed those prior experiences and interactions to take advantage of the full experience on fellowship.

There are some subjects that lend themselves to an online medium more naturally, psychology is not one of them. I too taught myself multiple programming languages (dating myself....JavaScript, HTML, etc), but none of that required me to interact with a patient. I wouldn’t trust a radiologist or surgeon who trained online, so why would I trust a psychologist?

 

[PsyDuck90]

That's the kind of thought I'm looking for. What would you say is a more adequate amount? What type of training depth would you say would satisfy your idea of intensity?

B&M programs typically have students complete multiple practicums prior to applying for the full-year internship at the end of the program. The DCTs at these programs often build long-standing relationships with supervisors at the off-site practicum sites to ensure that the sites are teaching their students appropriately. In an online forum, it is much more difficult for someone to get these practicum placements. For one, an online school is not going to develop relationships with sites all over the country. Secondly, there is no way a DCT can keep thorough track of the students' training sites and ensuring that the supervision is appropriate. Also, how many students are enrolled in these programs? Most reputable PhD and PsyDs have small cohorts of 10 or less, meaning these students are getting individualized attention to ensure they are learning proper techniques. These are the two things that I can think of off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are more issues in regards to online doctoral psychology training.

 

[foreverbull]

If by "residency" you mean clinical practica, traditional institutions require about 4-5 full years of it in addition to classes. On top of that, traditional institutions require research lab work and/or assistantships for 4-5 years, plus doing your own dissertation research on the side, meeting with faculty, participating in APA local chapters/professional organizations, doing outreach/presentations/guest lectures/teaching/volunteering to beef up your CV on the side. All of these activities are structured and/or are strongly encouraged to support advancement of science and practice/professional skills in traditional counseling and clinical psychology programs.

My question for you is which online programs offer this whole package of experiences for clinical/counseling psychology?

Edit: in my doctoral program, this was a baseline expectation for folks, not an ideal to aspire to. If online programs offer all of this plus the social supports that are naturally built into small cohorts, then you might be on to something. If not, let's leave clinical/counseling training to the well-established programs with oversight to provide the breadth and depth of knowledge and experiences to provide a minimum standard of competence in our field.

 

[counselor2b]

I agree. However, in fairness, the question there is, what in any classroom method or exam would determine how great you'll be? There are plenty of terrible Nurses and of Doctors of all modalities who learned everything in a physical classroom and passed all their exams.

True, there will always be outliers. However, along the way, most should be weeded out. Whether that be from direct observation in class or from contact between your practicum/internship supervisor and your advisor or professor. Remediation plans can be created well before a student begins direct patient contact if it is felt there a glaring deficiencies. However when the course is online it can be difficult to glean some of these issues based on discussion boards or essays. With a lot of the online programs, the residency requirements are minimal and spread far apart. I wonder how well they can pick up on deficits. I am not saying there are no quality clinicians from these programs, but I imagine they likely went above and beyond to get the training and supervision needed.

 

[Sanman]

As far as I know, Nurses have to take physical clinical training to learn that, which is why you can't become an LPN online. So I understand your point it just doesn't actually apply to reality...

But that is the point isn't it? You can't become an LPN online because of the physical clinical training, but people want counselors and psychologists with possibly sub-par clinical training or none at all because it is easier for them. Hk328 explains the barriers precisely in her post. No one is saying that you can't go get you undergrad in psych through distance learning. However, didactics is not where the program falls apart. The issue is that they fall apart in monitoring what happens outside the classroom in providing quality physical clinical and research training. At it's core, psychology, medicine, etc are all trades in the larger sense. If we could all learn trades from online didactics, I would never have to spring for quality furniture and stick to (not nearly as well constructed) IKEA that I did myself. Because there is no difference between me and master furniture-maker.

 

[Mindfulpsych22]

You were rather condescending there and it shows me you didn't really thoroughly read my post or even understand the point for that matter. For example, you said:"Hands-on research experience and mentorship, oversight of clinical skills and clinical training, and socialization into the field are main components of training for a clinical psychologist."

I stated in my initial post: "I agree 100% with those who say that a degree in Clinical Psychology that doesn't mandate residency (California Southen University comes to mind) is certainly questionable, but if one does the residency is it still just as questionable?"

^ So I think I made it perfectly clear that I fully understand the importance of hands-on experience, and that I don't need to be reminded to breath (lol), and I even begged the question that if one receives it can the program still be dismissed? So please, make sure you read carefully before condescending, it will benefit you. Thanks.

I’m sorry you found this to be condescending, though I’m not sure how saying that I had worked in the type of program you were referring to (distance learning with a residency requirement) somehow shows that I did not read your post? I also thought I was pretty clear that I referred to the specific components of the training that were inadequate in this type of model compared to what students get in a traditional program when I said " Students leave with almost no research experience, understanding of methods/statistics, and it is much more difficult for the school to monitor the practicum placements of their students to ensure that they are getting good training. It is also very difficult to get adequate mentorship. " The fact that these concepts have been repeated in multiple replies since my post I believe reflects my intent to be helpful and give accurate information in response to your question though I will be more specific per your request.

Having seen how students are prepared from both distance/residency requirement vs traditional program, I have witnessed first hand that many distance students have a hard time getting their needs met by their mentors (having emails/calls responded to, adequate meeting time during residency time). Many students in these programs end up doing qualitative research or "portfolios" for their dissertations because the program cannot support them in designing and executing quantitative or original research projects. Having no experience with quantitative research is a serious limitation to preparing a competent clinical psychologist. The program clinical training directors in distance programs have very little contact with the sites that training their students. Online schools cannot possibly be networked in every place in the country that their students are training in, so many times students are in charge of finding and setting up their own placements with little guidance/involvement from the school (which would be unheard of in a traditional program). In a traditional program, the training directors have very close relationships with training sites, help steer students toward sites that will best meet their interests and long-term goals, and are aware of the quality of the training and will drop sites if the quality of training is not sufficient.


So please, make sure you read carefully before condescending, it will benefit you. Thanks.[/QUOTE]

I could say the same, as your response coming across as equally condescending and quite defensive.........

 

[AbnormalPsych]

but if one does the residency is it still just as questionable?"

That's the kind of thought I'm looking for. What would you say is a more adequate amount? What type of training depth would you say would satisfy your idea of intensity?

What is this "residency" you are referring to? Pre-doc internship? Postdoc? I don't think you have a great grasp on what the accepted minimium standard of training in this field is. In our programs we go through YEARS of clinical practicums. We also work with patients in many other ways than direct clinical service, such as in our research. It is not just one year of clinical work. Our work with the populations we are interested in is integrated throughout various aspects of our training.

 

[Mindfulpsych22]

What is this "residency" you are referring to? Pre-doc internship? Postdoc? I don't think you have a great grasp on what the accepted minimium standard of training in this field is. In our programs we go through YEARS of clinical practicums. We also work with patients in many other ways than direct clinical service, such as in our research. It is not just one year of clinical work. Our work with the populations we are interested in is integrated throughout various aspects of our training.

“Residency” in the online school community typically refers to time that the student has to spend attending courses or programming in person. These are organized times but the school that students travel to the campus or regionally to another designated meeting location. Many states have requirements that a certain number of hours of graduate program are done “in person” in order to meet licensure requirements, therefore “residency” is meant to help students meet these requirements. This is separate from practica/internship.

OP if you mean something different from “residency” feel free to clarify.

 

[AbnormalPsych]

“Residency” in the online school community typically refers to time that the student has to spend attending courses or programming in person. These are organized times but the school that students travel to the campus or regionally to another designated meeting location. Many states have requirements that a certain number of hours of graduate program are done “in person” in order to meet licensure requirements, therefore “residency” is meant to help students meet these requirements. This is separate from practica/internship.

OP if you mean something different from “residency” feel free to clarify.

Ah, I've learned something new. Thanks @Mindfulpsych22

 

[cara susanna]

That's the kind of thought I'm looking for. What would you say is a more adequate amount? What type of training depth would you say would satisfy your idea of intensity?

As others have said, in a traditional program you spend several hours/week in the department clinic and receiving supervision from a faculty member in your department. You also attend classes and work on research with professors, some of whom will later get to observe your clinical skills through serving as your supervisor later on. In the more advanced years, you complete a 20 hr/week practicum supervised on-site but under the umbrella of your program, so your program is aware of your performance, any possible areas for growth, and able to intervene if there any issues on the site's end. This is lacking in online programs that have a residency component. Also, I think that the mentor/mentee relationship is crucial for clinical training, and this is often lacking or harder to obtain in the online setting.

Honestly, I attended a traditional program under that model and I still felt unprepared for real clinical work. It wasn't until fellowship that I started to feel like I could function as an independent clinician. I can't imagine going in with even less clinical training than I had.

 

[AbnormalPsych]

Honestly, I attended a traditional program under that model and I still felt unprepared for real clinical work. It wasn't until fellowship that I started to feel like I could function as an independent clinician. I can't imagine going in with even less clinical training than I had.

YES! Even after 2 years of fellowship I still am just now feeling prepared.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

By the 2nd year of fellowship I felt more ready, but i was thankful for still having a mentor to discuss difficult cases with whenever I needed. It took the better part of a year into my first job until I felt comfortable being completely independent. I still did case consultation, but that’s just good care IMHO.

 

[GymUnicorn]

I completely understand what "everyone has done" and how "everyone has made sacrifices"-heaven knows I have made my share. Yet, that doesn't negate the fact that everyone and everyone's situation is different. I haven't walked in anyone else's shoes, as no one else has walked in mine. I'm not looking for what I need to do, but more so what would be the best route to take for my situation, which is why I asked for thoughts on obtaining a PhD from an online institution. In order for me to obtain the position I want in teaching, I need a PhD. Thank you for your response.

I may new to the forum but I really felt the need to voice my disagreement with the notions that one cannot obtain a quality education from a blended or online program and work as well. I am in my final year (PsyD), completing internship (at an APA accredited site) and dissertation. I too attend Capella University which has a blended PsyD program (we have to complete a Residency year in addition to prac and internship). I mention the APA site because, unfortunately, the APA has taken the stance not to accredit any online or blended programs, simply due to the fallacy that one does not obtain the same quality education. Not true - you get what you put in. During my first three years, I worked full time until I entered Residency (had to drop to part time work due to the demands). I still see a few clients on weekends to supplement the internship stipend. Is it challenging? You bet - anything worth doing usually is.

 

[psych.meout]

I may new to the forum but I really felt the need to voice my disagreement with the notions that one cannot obtain a quality education from a blended or online program and work as well. I am in my final year (PsyD), completing internship (at an APA accredited site) and dissertation. I too attend Capella University which has a blended PsyD program (we have to complete a Residency year in addition to prac and internship). I mention the APA site because, unfortunately, the APA has taken the stance not to accredit any online or blended programs, simply due to the fallacy that one does not obtain the same quality education. Not true - you get what you put in. During my first three years, I worked full time until I entered Residency (had to drop to part time work due to the demands). I still see a few clients on weekends to supplement the internship stipend. Is it challenging? You bet - anything worth doing usually is.

So, your single year being in-person at your grad program is equivalent to the four or more years in-person of traditional, brick and mortar programs?

How does your program verify the quality of your clinical training and practica?

How do you receive equivalent mentorship if 3/4 of your education is not in-person?

How do you receive research training and perform doctoral-level research if 3/4 of your education is not in-person?

 

[WisNeuro]

I mention the APA site because, unfortunately, the APA has taken the stance not to accredit any online or blended programs

This is false.

 

[foreverbull]

I may new to the forum but I really felt the need to voice my disagreement with the notions that one cannot obtain a quality education from a blended or online program and work as well. I am in my final year (PsyD), completing internship (at an APA accredited site) and dissertation. I too attend Capella University which has a blended PsyD program (we have to complete a Residency year in addition to prac and internship). I mention the APA site because, unfortunately, the APA has taken the stance not to accredit any online or blended programs, simply due to the fallacy that one does not obtain the same quality education. Not true - you get what you put in. During my first three years, I worked full time until I entered Residency (had to drop to part time work due to the demands). I still see a few clients on weekends to supplement the internship stipend. Is it challenging? You bet - anything worth doing usually is.

Please respond to my post (below), since you didn't address my overall question.

If by "residency" you mean clinical practica, traditional institutions require about 4-5 full years of it in addition to classes. On top of that, traditional institutions require research lab work and/or assistantships for 4-5 years, plus doing your own dissertation research on the side, meeting with faculty, participating in APA local chapters/professional organizations, doing outreach/presentations/guest lectures/teaching/volunteering to beef up your CV on the side. All of these activities are structured and/or are strongly encouraged to support advancement of science and practice/professional skills in traditional counseling and clinical psychology programs.

Which online programs offer this whole package of experiences for clinical/counseling psychology?

Edit: in my doctoral program, this was a baseline expectation for folks, not an ideal to aspire to. If online programs offer all of this plus the social supports that are naturally built into small cohorts, then you might be on to something. If not, let's leave clinical/counseling training to the well-established programs with oversight to provide the breadth and depth of knowledge and experiences to provide a minimum standard of competence in our field.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

It’s worth noting that APA-acred status is not some aspirational goal or mark of an exceptional program. It isn’t the Michelin Star for grad psych programs. Instead, APA-acred is the minimum standard established by the field for training programs.

It’s mind boggling that anyone teaching in those programs believes that the “residency” standards are remotely comparable to a B&M training program. Spending a few weeks or long weekends over the course of 4 years is fine for continuing education credits, but not for foundational training.

 

[GymUnicorn]

This is false.

June 2012 Monitor on Psychology.... T'is true.

 

[WisNeuro]

June 2012 Monitor on Psychology.... T'is true.

Fielding, T'is false. I mean it's only academic, those are also applications I will not consider for internship/postdoc/new hires, but the APA does indeed accredit such programs, much to our dismay.

 

[GymUnicorn]

So, your single year being in-person at your grad program is equivalent to the four or more years in-person of traditional, brick and mortar programs?

How does your program verify the quality of your clinical training and practica?

How do you receive equivalent mentorship if 3/4 of your education is not in-person?

How do you receive research training and perform doctoral-level research if 3/4 of your education is not in-person?

In short, yes, but that also depends on the student. Moreover, the program does follow APA standards and meets licensure criteria in my state (I live in the Northeast) as indicated by the Board in my state. As far as mentorship is concerned, my mentors and I Skype at least every other week (now....early on it was pretty much every week with a professor with whom I connected during my interview). There a couple I can call whenever I need to for a booster. I'm not a researcher (hence why I went for the PsyD verses the PhD) but I can assure you I am having no problems with my dissertation, having aced my stats and research methodology classes. It also helps to make solid connections with local psychologists for additional supervision. ;-) Again, I do have to stress that blended programs aren't for everyone. If you think you're going to just float on through, get a doctorate, and land your dream job you are sadly mistaken. However, if you bust your hump and really work at your network, use the resources available, and continually seek experiential learning opportunities, you'll do just fine. You also need to have clear goals and know the limitations, such as working at the VA or some faculty positions.

 

[WisNeuro]

You also need to have clear goals and know the limitations, such as working at the VA or some faculty positions.

You forgot to add that most hospital systems in most states will not/can not hire you for psychologist positions without an accredited degree along with the VA system.

 

[GymUnicorn]

Fielding, T'is false. I mean it's only academic, those are also applications I will not consider for internship/postdoc/new hires, but the APA does indeed accredit such programs, much to our dismay.

I stand corrected - looks like there is an exception. As an aside, it is interesting the Monitor did not mention Fielding.

 

[AbnormalPsych]

During my first three years, I worked full time until I entered Residency (had to drop to part time work due to the demands). I still see a few clients on weekends to supplement the internship stipend. Is it challenging? You bet - anything worth doing usually is.

Can you clarify if this means you worked full time in a position related to your graduate program? Like a paid practicum, psychometrician, or research assistant? Or was this a separate job not linked to your program?

 

[GymUnicorn]

You forgot to add that most hospital systems in most states will not/can not hire you for psychologist positions without an accredited degree along with the VA system.

Depends where you are and whether you can effectively sell yourself. My postdoc is in a hospital... To be fair, however, I was a director for one of the departments prior to the need to drop full time work.

My advice to anyone considering a blending program - do some intense soul searching. If you aren't a networker or a voracious go-getter....go B&M. If you want to work in the VA or some tenure track professorship, go B&M. If your state is iffy on the APA requirements and you don't want to move, go B&M. But don't just go B&M because you think it's subpar education; it's only subpar if you don't do the work.

 

[GymUnicorn]

Can you clarify if this means you worked full time in a position related to your graduate program? Like a paid practicum, psychometrician, or research assistant? Or was this a separate job not linked to your program?

I was a director at a hospital in my state (psychiatric). It was not linked to the program.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Years of immersive experience in a traditional program with integrated classroom and clinical experience day in and day out with real psychologists has made me the clinician I am today. Maybe one could argue that an online program could be sufficient, but I would never agree that it is equivalent. I am relying on my own subjective experience, but I have worked alongside and supervised many clinicians from both types of programs and would say that there is a categorical difference in how they function as a psychologist.

I am going to be overseeing two online doctoral students again in the near future and know full well that they will be limited in certain ways. Unfortunately, they won't be able to see those very well themselves because that level of critical self-analysis is one of the deficits that i have observed. Makes sense since we develop this skill through constant feedback during our in-person training. My hope is that I can remediate some of this before they go on to get licensed. Sometimes it is tough if they already have a chip on their shoulder related to the all-too common narcissistic defense against feelings of inadequacy.

 

[GymUnicorn]

Please respond to my post (below), since you didn't address my overall question.

Are you referencing a PhD program or a PsyD program?

 

[GymUnicorn]

Years of immersive experience in a traditional program with integrated classroom and clinical experience day in and day out with real psychologists has made me the clinician I am today. Maybe one could argue that an online program could be sufficient, but I would never agree that it is equivalent. I am relying on my own subjective experience, but I have worked alongside and supervised many clinicians from both types of programs and would say that there is a categorical difference in how they function as a psychologist.

I am going to be overseeing two online doctoral students again in the near future and know full well that they will be limited in certain ways. Unfortunately, they won't be able to see those very well themselves because that level of critical self-analysis is one of the deficits that i have observed. Makes sense since we develop this skill through constant feedback during our in-person training. My hope is that I can remediate some of this before they go on to get licensed. Sometimes it is tough if they already have a chip on their shoulder related to the all-too common narcissistic defense against feelings of inadequacy.

Here's to hoping your supervisees are coming in with clinical experience prior to their program. I do hear you on the self-analysis piece as it is something I have spoken about frequently with my supervisors (whom were surprised at my own self analysis process). Imposter syndrome is bad enough as an intern, but I do think it is much more pronounced for those who do not have the clinical experience (at the Master's level). Personally, I think everyone aspiring to be a psychologist should practice at the Master's level for at least 5 years before they take the leap, but that is just my opinion.

 

[psych.meout]

In short, yes, but that also depends on the student. Moreover, the program does follow APA standards and meets licensure criteria in my state (I live in the Northeast) as indicated by the Board in my state.

Follows APA standards except for accreditation? Do you not realize that APA accreditation is actually a relatively low bar? Do you see the kinds of poor quality programs (e.g., huge cohort sizes, low accredited internship match rates, low EPPP pass rates, low licensure rates) that get accredited and your program can't even manage that?

As far as mentorship is concerned, my mentors and I Skype at least every other week (now....early on it was pretty much every week with a professor with whom I connected during my interview). There a couple I can call whenever I need to for a booster.

My entire lab meets with our mentor every week and then we have individual time with them, which depends on each person's current needs, schedule, milestones, etc.

I'm not a researcher (hence why I went for the PsyD verses the PhD) but I can assure you I am having no problems with my dissertation, having aced my stats and research methodology classes.

You're completely missing the point. Research training is not just for "researchers," nor is it intended to just get you past milestones like dissertations. Clinical psychologists are supposed to be both scientists and practitioners.

It also helps to make solid connections with local psychologists for additional supervision. ;-) Again, I do have to stress that blended programs aren't for everyone. If you think you're going to just float on through, get a doctorate, and land your dream job you are sadly mistaken. However, if you bust your hump and really work at your network, use the resources available, and continually seek experiential learning opportunities, you'll do just fine. You also need to have clear goals and know the limitations, such as working at the VA or some faculty positions.

Again, you're missing the point. Doctoral programs are supposed to be providing these things for their students, not leaving them to fend for themselves to cobble together whatever kind of training they can find. This isn't just for the sake of the students (though that should be enough), but also for the purposes of consistency in training and quality assurance. As I previously asked, how does your program verify the quality of these experiences beyond your say-so? If they communicate with the supervisors you've found, how do they verify what they are being told?

Regardless, the APPIC rules have now changed and students from unaccredited programs are explicitly prohibited from participating in the match. Thus, future students from your program are going to be barred from many career opportunities (e.g., VAMCs, AMCs).

 

[foreverbull]

Are you referencing a PhD program or a PsyD program?

A Ph.D. program. I am less familiar with the formatting of traditional APA-accredited Psy.D programs., but I would hope they have the same bar even if they don't require assistantships/lab research.

 

[PsyDuck90]

A Ph.D. program. I am less familiar with the formatting of traditional APA-accredited Psy.D programs., but I would hope they have the same bar even if they don't require assistantships/lab research.

Most of the good ones still have a research component. I'm starting an APA accredited PsyD in the fall and we have lab meetings twice a week. Students are required to do a 2nd year research project and a dissertation (along with comps in between), with the expectation that the dissertation is completed before entering internship year, as well as off-site practicums in DCT approved sites every year starting with the 2nd year. Part of my stipend is actually being an RA in the research lab (not every incoming student is, as that is up to the discretion of the individual faculty member to award). Granted, this is a sample of n=1.