Getting a PhD from an online program

[MCParent]

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A Ph.D. program. I am less familiar with the formatting of traditional APA-accredited Psy.D programs., but I would hope they have the same bar even if they don't require assistantships/lab research.

My experience has been that many do not. Some allow a clinical/theoretical piece to be done instead of a research dissertation, and I've stumbled across many pretty poor ones when I've been looking around for something else. I don't know why I would want to read treatment guidelines for something written by one person with barely any exposure to the topic at hand.

 

[psych.meout]

My experience has been that many do not. Some allow a clinical/theoretical piece to be done instead of a research dissertation, and I've stumbled across many pretty poor ones when I've been looking around for something else. I don't know why I would want to read treatment guidelines for something written by one person with barely any exposure to the topic at hand.

This is where someone is supposed to post a link to the Raven dissertation.

 

[GymUnicorn]

Follows APA standards except for accreditation? Do you not realize that APA accreditation is actually a relatively low bar? Do you see the kinds of poor quality programs (e.g., huge cohort sizes, low accredited internship match rates, low EPPP pass rates, low licensure rates) that get accredited and your program can't even manage that?

My entire lab meets with our mentor every week and then we have individual time with them, which depends on each person's current needs, schedule, milestones, etc.

You're completely missing the point. Research training is not just for "researchers," nor is it intended to just get you past milestones like dissertations. Clinical psychologists are supposed to be both scientists and practitioners.

Again, you're missing the point. Doctoral programs are supposed to be providing these things for their students, not leaving them to fend for themselves to cobble together whatever kind of training they can find. This isn't just for the sake of the students (though that should be enough), but also for the purposes of consistency in training and quality assurance. As I previously asked, how does your program verify the quality of these experiences beyond your say-so? If they communicate with the supervisors you've found, how do they verify what they are being told?

Regardless, the APPIC rules have now changed and students from unaccredited programs are explicitly prohibited from participating in the match. Thus, future students from your program are going to be barred from many career opportunities (e.g., VAMCs, AMCs).

I refer to the standards since that is what was referenced and what is referenced in licensure regulations. So, for example, in my state the APA accred is not required, just that the program have regional accred and be "substantially similar to an APA accred. program". My state has deemed my program to meet requirements, so really.... there's no argument here.

Well, seems like you are getting what you feel you need from your mentor. Great! So do we, it's tailored to what we need - some of my cohort also had more frequent meetings. I never did like meetings just for meeting sake, nor the "my office hours are....". 🙂 Point being, just because it is different from what you experience, that does not make it subpar. It's just different.

Yes, yes.... I get that. However, research isn't the focus (psyd = practitioner-scholar model, not scholar-practitioner model). Nonetheless, my testing reports are also very solid and research based. So are my treatment plans. So is the way I conceptualize my cases.

I don't think I'm missing the point. If there is one thing I have learned it is that what works in academia does not necessarily translate into real world practice. Moreover, I am just that kind of person who would rather cobble than be coddled. I also prefer having those real world connections well established to help with a smooth transition into actual practice - people that I can meet with for peer supervision over coffee 5 years from now. I can't speak for all blended programs, just my own. How does your program verify what you say you are doing on your internship? They speak with the supervisors, observed taped mock sessions, review testing reports, tx plans. I've had to do the same as well as, for example, give presentations based on what I've learned from workshops (and provide documentation of completion), those "boosters", etc which has also included demonstration of interventions (such as my trainings in Y-CBT and Trauma Sensitive Yoga). Again, just because it is a bit different in that we are looking at each other through a screen most of the time, that does not make it subpar. Just different.

Who said I went through the Match? ;-) Again, blended programs aren't for everyone, and particular not for those who aren't able or don't want to do the work.

 

[psychRA]

There is no substitute for direct clinical experience. And by that I mean YEARS AND YEARS of direct clinical experience in multiple settings, not a single "residency" experience.

Classroom learning is part of the preparation process, and you absolutely need that piece as a foundation. But it's just that - a foundation, one which you then build upon using your accumulated knowledge and clinical experience. It's a foundation in the same way that a building's foundation is a concrete slab upon which you build the house, get it inspected, and then declare it fit for human inhabitants. You don't live on the concrete slab itself, and you can't be a competent practitioner based only on your foundation of classroom learning.

There's no shortcut for this process. There is no easier, faster way to become a competent psychologist.

 

[psych.meout]

I refer to the standards since that is what was referenced and what is referenced in licensure regulations. So, for example, in my state the APA accred is not required, just that the program have regional accred and be "substantially similar to an APA accred. program". My state has deemed my program to meet requirements, so really.... there's no argument here.

That's all well and good for you, but the field is moving towards stricter requirements, from internships to licensure to boarding. Attending unaccredited programs will further and further restrict graduates' career options, earnings, and more as time goes on.

Well, seems like you are getting what you feel you need from your mentor. Great! So do we, it's tailored to what we need - some of my cohort also had more frequent meetings. I never did like meetings just for meeting sake, nor the "my office hours are....". 🙂 Point being, just because it is different from what you experience, that does not make it subpar. It's just different.

Right, it's tailored to what you need....over Skype. Can you imagine telling your future employers and patients that your main source of contact with your graduate program and advisor for the vast majority of your education was only through Skype?

Yes, yes.... I get that. However, research isn't the focus (psyd = practitioner-scholar model, not scholar-practitioner model). Nonetheless, my testing reports are also very solid and research based. So are my treatment plans. So is the way I conceptualize my cases.

I don't think I'm missing the point. If there is one thing I have learned it is that what works in academia does not necessarily translate into real world practice.

Which is what effectiveness, implementation, and fidelity research is for. Do you not see that you're just proving my point that this paucity of research training hinders professional development and clinical practice?

Moreover, I am just that kind of person who would rather cobble than be coddled.

Adhering to the training standards of the field is "coddling?"

Well then, I'm pretty happy that my program "coddles" its students into a 100% APA-accredited internship match rate, matching to various fellowships, board certification, positions as tenured faculty, practitioners, researchers, etc.

I also prefer having those real world connections well established to help with a smooth transition into actual practice - people that I can meet with for peer supervision over coffee 5 years from now.

I'm pretty sure graduates from traditional brick and mortar programs have friends and colleagues and receive peer supervision. I'm not sure what advantage is offered by your program.

I can't speak for all blended programs, just my own. How does your program verify what you say you are doing on your internship? They speak with the supervisors, observed taped mock sessions, review testing reports, tx plans. I've had to do the same as well as, for example, give presentations based on what I've learned from workshops (and provide documentation of completion), those "boosters", etc which has also included demonstration of interventions (such as my trainings in Y-CBT and Trauma Sensitive Yoga). Again, just because it is a bit different in that we are looking at each other through a screen most of the time, that does not make it subpar. Just different.

Except those internship sites have been vetted by the APA, so there is at a minimum training standard that your program can be assured that you have received. It's not dependent upon assurances from individual students or their supervisors.

Regardless, you've changed the subject from practica and clinical training during grad programs to internships, which are completely different. At brick and mortar programs, foundational training is done within the universities' in-house clinics. Later, more advanced training is done through external sites in their communities with whom they have well-established relationships and routinely verify (and can do so in-person). You honestly can't be comparing brick and mortar programs having their students train in local VA and AMC clinics with students from online, unaccredited programs finding whatever private practitioner will take them.

Who said I went through the Match? ;-) Again, blended programs aren't for everyone, and particular not for those who aren't able or don't want to do the work.

I'm confused. You stated earlier that your internship site is APA-accredited, but I'm pretty sure that all APA-accredited sites, which are also APPIC members, are required to recruit through the APPIC matching service.

I may new to the forum but I really felt the need to voice my disagreement with the notions that one cannot obtain a quality education from a blended or online program and work as well. I am in my final year (PsyD), completing internship (at an APA accredited site) and dissertation. I too attend Capella University which has a blended PsyD program (we have to complete a Residency year in addition to prac and internship). I mention the APA site because, unfortunately, the APA has taken the stance not to accredit any online or blended programs, simply due to the fallacy that one does not obtain the same quality education. Not true - you get what you put in. During my first three years, I worked full time until I entered Residency (had to drop to part time work due to the demands). I still see a few clients on weekends to supplement the internship stipend. Is it challenging? You bet - anything worth doing usually is.

Here's the relevant section from the APPIC FAQ:
APPIC > Match > FAQs > Applicants > Eligibility and Participation

3. Will all internship sites be participating in the Match?

All of nearly 800 APPIC-member doctoral internship sites are required to recruit all of their positions via the APPIC Match. In addition, some non-accredited and non-APPIC member sites choose to participate in the Match each year. These non-member programs have simply paid a fee to participate and have not been reviewed or approved by APPIC in any way. If you are considering attending a non-accredited and/or non-APPIC member internship, you should carefully consider the potential risks in doing so. APPIC has developed a separate FAQ item on this topic, available below.

The APPIC Directory Online only includes those programs that are APPIC members. Each program's Directory Online listing includes that program's APA- and CPA-accreditation status. A complete list of accredited internship programs may also be found on the APA and CPA web sites. Non-member programs that participate in the Match can be found in the List of Participating Programs on the NMS web site.

Some programs may tell you that they are planning to apply (or have already applied) for accreditation or APPIC membership, have a site visit scheduled, etc. While these are important steps in the process, you should be aware that these steps are NOT guarantees that the program will ultimately achieve accreditation or APPIC membership.

Applying to both participating and non-participating internship programs may result in your having to make some difficult choices. Basically, applicants who participate in the Match would only be able to accept a position from a non-participating internship program: (1) PRIOR to submitting a Rank Order List for either Phase of the Match (applicants who do this must then immediately submit a formal withdrawal from the Match), or (2) AFTER receiving their results on the associated APPIC Match Day and learning that they are not matched to any internship program.

Once you submit a Rank Order List to the Match, you are then obligated to accept and attend the internship program to which you are matched. You are not permitted to back out of this obligation.

If you receive an offer from a non-participating program before submitting your Rank Order List, you have to make a potentially difficult decision. You must decide to either: (1) accept the position from the non-participating site and withdraw from the Match, or (2) decline the position from the non-participating site and submit your Rank Order List to the Match.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Here's to hoping your supervisees are coming in with clinical experience prior to their program. I do hear you on the self-analysis piece as it is something I have spoken about frequently with my supervisors (whom were surprised at my own self analysis process). Imposter syndrome is bad enough as an intern, but I do think it is much more pronounced for those who do not have the clinical experience (at the Master's level). Personally, I think everyone aspiring to be a psychologist should practice at the Master's level for at least 5 years before they take the leap, but that is just my opinion.

My opinion is the opposite. I think it is typically better to have less clinical experience prior to the doctoral program so that there are less bad habits to recorrect and ways of thinking to unlearn. My experience has been that students with online degrees do tend to think and function like MA level clinicians and therein lies the problem.

 

[WisNeuro]

I'm with Smalltown here, my trainees who came in with more clinical "work" prior to their doctoral program tend to be the worst with receiving feedback and incorporating new things. Not universal, but definitely an anecdotal trend.

 

[cara susanna]

I refer to the standards since that is what was referenced and what is referenced in licensure regulations. So, for example, in my state the APA accred is not required, just that the program have regional accred and be "substantially similar to an APA accred. program". My state has deemed my program to meet requirements, so really.... there's no argument here.

Well, seems like you are getting what you feel you need from your mentor. Great! So do we, it's tailored to what we need - some of my cohort also had more frequent meetings. I never did like meetings just for meeting sake, nor the "my office hours are....". 🙂 Point being, just because it is different from what you experience, that does not make it subpar. It's just different.

Yes, yes.... I get that. However, research isn't the focus (psyd = practitioner-scholar model, not scholar-practitioner model). Nonetheless, my testing reports are also very solid and research based. So are my treatment plans. So is the way I conceptualize my cases.

I don't think I'm missing the point. If there is one thing I have learned it is that what works in academia does not necessarily translate into real world practice. Moreover, I am just that kind of person who would rather cobble than be coddled. I also prefer having those real world connections well established to help with a smooth transition into actual practice - people that I can meet with for peer supervision over coffee 5 years from now. I can't speak for all blended programs, just my own. How does your program verify what you say you are doing on your internship? They speak with the supervisors, observed taped mock sessions, review testing reports, tx plans. I've had to do the same as well as, for example, give presentations based on what I've learned from workshops (and provide documentation of completion), those "boosters", etc which has also included demonstration of interventions (such as my trainings in Y-CBT and Trauma Sensitive Yoga). Again, just because it is a bit different in that we are looking at each other through a screen most of the time, that does not make it subpar. Just different.

Who said I went through the Match? ;-) Again, blended programs aren't for everyone, and particular not for those who aren't able or don't want to do the work.

It sounds like you had your Master's and were doing clinical work prior to your doctoral level training--am I correct? I'm concerned about students who go in (like I and many others I know did) without any full time clinical experience.

 

[GymUnicorn]

I'm confused. You stated earlier that your internship site is APA-accredited, but I'm pretty sure that all APA-accredited sites, which are also APPIC members, are required to recruit through the APPIC matching service.

They are required to take the allotted number of interns specified in the APPIC list through the Match, yes. However, they are not required to NOT take additional interns outside the Match.

 

[GymUnicorn]

It sounds like you had your Master's and were doing clinical work prior to your doctoral level training--am I correct? I'm concerned about students who go in (like I and many others I know did) without any full time clinical experience.

I did, yes. I would not recommend a blended program to someone without prior clinical experience.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

They are required to take the allotted number of interns specified in the APPIC list through the Match, yes. However, they are not required to NOT take additional interns outside the Match.

As a clarification for those reading, programs participating in the match are required to list all available internship positions for Phase I. If a position becomes available after Phase I, or if all positions are not filled via Phases I and II, then yep, sites can make offers as they see fit after Phase II is finished.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I did, yes. I would not recommend a blended program to someone without prior clinical experience.

Why?

 

[smalltownpsych]

Is this what they mean by a blended program?