Getting back into residency and getting LOR after nonclinical work

[axel82]

Hi guys,

I posted several dozen times over the years but under different user names, I keep forgetting them

Anyway, I am in a somewhat unique situation and I'm wondering if I can get some help here. I'm an AMG who graduated way back in 2008. To be honest, my record in school was pretty awful (I had to repeat two clerkships) and I knew I wasn't competitive enough to match into ortho (or any surgical residency), so I just left medicine altogether and started an unrelated business. I thought I could make a decent living with a lot less effort, but I quickly realized that being an entrepreneur involves way more work than I expected and there was no guarantee of any success.

So the following year I finally entered the match, applying to several specialties, and I ended up with a decent IM position. However, several months after I started residency I got an offer from a firm (again outside of medicine) that was too good to refuse, so I just quit my residency and went off to work for them instead. I did well for a few years, but recently the company let me go and I currently find myself unemployed.

I am thinking about applying to residency for a second time, hopefully IM but I'll take FM too if that's what I can get. Yes I know the work is tough, but unlike most jobs being an MD is very stable, especially given this economy. So I ask you guys, what is the best way to re-enter medicine given my situation?? I am an excellent talker and I'm sure I can explain my situation well in an interview, but I think my major hurdle for now is getting letters of recommendation. It's been a long time since I've had any interaction with anyone at my med school, and I don't think anybody at my old residency has anything positive to say about me, given that I left them so abruptly. How should I approach this? Should I call local doctor's offices and ask privately to shadow them for a few days or something? What are my chances of getting in anywhere[/B ]given my situation? Thanks.

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[billybob746]

Honestly? your chances are essentially zero. the most important letter that you are going to need is a letter from your previous residency program director. and the chances the he/she will write you a LOR after that stunt? I suspect zero. so, unless someone else on this forum has some other amazing insight i am missing, i think you can kiss you chances goodbye. i dont think you'll be sweet talking you way back into medicine. not a field for quitters who look for the bigger, better, brighter opportunity on the outside.

 

[deleted480308]

My bet is, barring a gracious gift of God, you are done with being a US resident. Maybe consider overseaes work

 

[axel82]

Seriously? Even FM I have zero chance?? I DID graduate (though barely) from a decent US school, if that counts for anything. I just don't have any bridges left.

If I go overseas won't they ask for a letter from my old PD and also my (not so great) dean's letter??? Or can I get away without this?

 

[smq123]

Seriously? Even FM I have zero chance?? I DID graduate (though barely) from a decent US school, if that counts for anything. I just don't have any bridges left.

If I go overseas won't they ask for a letter from my old PD and also my (not so great) dean's letter??? Or can I get away without this?

Many FM programs are unwilling to take someone who is more than 5 years out from graduation without significant clinical experience. A few months in an IM program may, or may not, help. The bigger issue is, as people have alluded to, is that you will come off as a bit of a flake - you quit an IM residency to take a non-clinical job. And unless you were the best intern EVER in your short time there, the fact is is that, clinically, you're a bit of a risk - very very few students have to ever repeat a single clerkship, much less two.

Would you consider doing something that is less clinically oriented? Something like Preventive Medicine or Nuclear Med or something else?

 

[NotAProgDirector]

I'm not sure that it's fair to say that your chances are zero, but there is no question that you've dug yourself a deep hole. Some thoughts:

1. You didn't do well in medical school. Your chances of matching right out of medical school were not fantastic, and now you have more problems (a 5 year gap without clinical experience). Your options are going to be very limited. As mentioned, only the least competitive fields are going to be an option. FM and Prev Med are probably your best bet. Peds and path might be an option. Pathology is something to consider -- because pathologists don't directly care for patients, those programs might be more forgiving of a long break.

2. You're already too late for this cycle, and I assume you know that (but see below).

3. You may have a problem with the USMLE. Most states require that you pass Step 3 within 7 years of taking Step 1. You are going to be very close to that cutoff, if not over it already. Note that you can take Step 3 without starting residency, and this is something you should consider if you're still inside the 7 year window.

4. I agree you need experience to improve your chances. What type of experience depends upon what you are looking for. If you want FM, then you should shadow with FM. If you want path, then shadow with path.

5. You could consider contacting your prior medical school. Perhaps they will show you some mercy, and help you get more experience. I wouldn't count on it, though. You didn't do well, they are unlikely to re-invest in you.

6. You should consider registering for ERAS and the NRMP for this year, to participate in SOAP. Who knows what will be open, and you could try to get some experience between now and then (with an LOR). The cost of basic ERAS and NRMP registration is tiny. Your chances aren't good, but the risk:benefit would seem OK to me.

7. Your story above is a CATASTROPHIC FAIL. If you actually tell people that you've decided to come back to clinical medicine because your other gig didn't work out and you figure this is a better way to make a regular paycheck, you are totally dead in the water. You've got to convince people you actually want to come back to medicine. How you will do that is unclear. Plus, if you tell people that you didn't even try to match into anything like FM or Path because "you weren't competitive for ortho or surgery or anything good", you are equally dead in the water. You are certain to be asked why you didn't match after graduating, better find a better answer.

8. You didn't do well in your clinical years. You need to ask yourself if you'll do well in residency. Residency = clerkship on steroids + pressors + overdrive pacing. Its very busy, will require 110% commitment and concentration. It's also much more rewarding, and is focused on your area of interest (which are positives) You haven't convinced me that you're ready for it. Have you convinced yourself?

As I type and think at the same time, I become more inclined to suggest you consider pathology as a career option. It's quite low on the competitiveness scale, doesn;t require (much) patient interaction and hence might be more open to your gap, might be easier to have a good shadowing experience (since there are no patients involved and hence you won't need a medical license). Downside is that the job market for path is not going well (at least as discussed on SDN, but you should check their separate threads on that.)

 

[axel82]

Hi guys, I appreciate the helpful and well composed responses, especially from aProgDirector. Let me ask you something: I'm pretty sure that I can talk myself out of several of the points you mentioned (assuming I get to the interview), I also already passed step 3 in 2010, and yes I am willing to consider any field including the least competitive ones, but there are two serious remaining issues that I am concerned about and I would really appreciate your input on them.

How am I supposed to get around my previous PD? I'm assuming that any program that considers me will want a letter from or at least speak to the old PD? Do they ask for copies of evals? The program leadership was seriously incensed when I left. And to make things worse for me, our rotation evals are not turned in until some time after they are finished, and I'm pretty certain they retroactively gave me bad evals.

Also I did a couple of months of that residency... will that count against me funding-wise? It was 3 year, not an internship. I mean, even from the outset, I'd think that a program would prefer to take somebody with 3 years of funding instead of only 2, never mind all the other issues!!

Thanks again!


EDIT: Pathology not competitive? You guys know best but my word things must have changed. I remember when I was still in school the path program was 100% AMG and 30% were MD/PhD's. So I guess they're going elsewhere now???

 

[Top Gun]

To be honest, I would be surprised if you did match into a residency. For starters, you failed two clerkships and had to repeat them. Second, you left medicine not once, but twice. And you were lucky to get the first internship with your two failures in med school.

Also, you don't really seem to show any commitment to anything, to be honest. You couldn't even commit to being an entrepreneur because you thought it was too much work. If you don't like to work, then I would seriously urge you to reconsider becoming a physician, because medicine requires a ton of work and 100% commitment. Are you even going to be able to stick it out when, during residency, you're working 80-hour weeks, with call every four nights, sometimes getting only one or two hours of sleep, dealing with high-pressure situations? And the work is almost as hard when you're an attending. Are you even sure you want to do it? As I said before, you left medicine twice, and now it sounds like you're coming back to it just because your other gigs didn't work out for you. You're going to have to show that you're really serious about wanting to do medicine if you want to get back into residency. And don't think you can smooth-talk program directors. They interview hundreds of candidates each year, so they know how to spot the fast-talkers. And, to be honest, why should they consider someone like you, when there are thousands of candidates who genuinely want to be physicians and have worked hard, unlike you, to obtain residency positions?

Finally, you've been out of med school for almost 5 years, so residencies will see you as someone whose clinical skills have deterioriated.

Anyway, you need to figure out if medicine is really what you want to do. To me, it sounds more like you still don't know what you want to do with your life, and are just trying to get back into medicine because your other ventures didn't work out.

 

[gutonc]

How am I supposed to get around my previous PD? I'm assuming that any program that considers me will want a letter from or at least speak to the old PD? Do they ask for copies of evals? The program leadership was seriously incensed when I left. And to make things worse for me, our rotation evals are not turned in until some time after they are finished, and I'm pretty certain they retroactively gave me bad evals.

You're not going to get around your previous PD. You will in fact almost certainly have to go through him. And he has good reason to be pissed at you. The best you can hope for from him is a letter that says "we didn't fire axel82" and hope he leaves it at that.

Also I did a couple of months of that residency... will that count against me funding-wise? It was 3 year, not an internship. I mean, even from the outset, I'd think that a program would prefer to take somebody with 3 years of funding instead of only 2, never mind all the other issues!!

The funding won't be that big of an issue, simply because you've got about a million other, much bigger issues going on.

I agree with others that your chances are slim. If you want to try for IM again, aim very, very low. There are plenty of programs in NYC that are exclusively IMG that might be willing to gamble on you not bailing out of medicine for a 3rd time.

 

[axel82]

Really helpful responses guys, I really appreciate your frank and honest assessment of my situation!

I know a lot of you guys question my commitment, but I will say that I really do have a passion for medicine. I wouldn't have slugged it out for 4 years if I wasn't. I was just too narrow minded. I was hell bent on ortho or gen surg----> vascular, and at that time nothing else was an option. Surgery or bust, and I took the latter route. When I finally came to my senses and took an IM spot, I thought I was doing okay, and was able to handle the work load, but when somebody offers you a well paying regular job with half the hours it's tough to resist.

I know these are retroactive excuses and I would have been better off if I just applied to a less competitive residency as an M4, heck I'd be an attending right now, but hey I can't change the past. I can only try to assess my chances, and try to see if I should even bother. It all comes down to this: Will anybody even consider a guy who barely graduated several years ago with problems in both med school and residency, a non-endorsing dean's letter, and bad blood with the old PD?? Or will they rather just leave the spot unfilled?

 

[Gastrapathy]

As I type and think at the same time, I become more inclined to suggest you consider pathology as a career option. It's quite low on the competitiveness scale, doesn;t require (much) patient interaction and hence might be more open to your gap, might be easier to have a good shadowing experience (since there are no patients involved and hence you won't need a medical license). Downside is that the job market for path is not going well (at least as discussed on SDN, but you should check their separate threads on that.)

I feel like you've recently recommended pathology to several of the local misanthropes. As someone who has to interact with pathologists frequently, they are challenging enough already . Seriously, I'm not saying you're wrong but these folks can't all be pathologists.

OP, you're probably not the right fit for medicine. I can't see you being happy as a primary care physician. Maybe be a shrink?

 

[NotAProgDirector]

I feel like you've recently recommended pathology to several of the local misanthropes. As someone who has to interact with pathologists frequently, they are challenging enough already . Seriously, I'm not saying you're wrong but these folks can't all be pathologists.

OP, you're probably not the right fit for medicine. I can't see you being happy as a primary care physician. Maybe be a shrink?

Sorry dude! I actually meant it in a positive light. Many medical students never consider pathology as a career path. There's no clerkship in it, and it gets lost in the shuffle.

Really helpful responses guys, I really appreciate your frank and honest assessment of my situation!

I know a lot of you guys question my commitment, but I will say that I really do have a passion for medicine. I wouldn't have slugged it out for 4 years if I wasn't. I was just too narrow minded. I was hell bent on ortho or gen surg----> vascular, and at that time nothing else was an option. Surgery or bust, and I took the latter route. When I finally came to my senses and took an IM spot, I thought I was doing okay, and was able to handle the work load, but when somebody offers you a well paying regular job with half the hours it's tough to resist.

I know these are retroactive excuses and I would have been better off if I just applied to a less competitive residency as an M4, heck I'd be an attending right now, but hey I can't change the past. I can only try to assess my chances, and try to see if I should even bother. It all comes down to this: Will anybody even consider a guy who barely graduated several years ago with problems in both med school and residency, a non-endorsing dean's letter, and bad blood with the old PD?? Or will they rather just leave the spot unfilled?

Seems like the only way to know the answer is to apply. Do what you can to improve your application for next year. Gain clinical exposure if possible. Taking Step 3 was a good move. Contact your old PD, be as conciliatory as possible. Apply broadly, see what happens.

 

[axel82]

OK cool, I appreciate the insights. I just have one final question:

What about joining the military through the military match? Am I even eligible to apply, given the fact that I graduated 4 years ago and spent a couple of months in a "civilian" program? Do I need to speak to a recruiter? Thanks.

 

[thecampuslegend]

Hi guys,

I posted several dozen times over the years but under different user names, I keep forgetting them

Anyway, I am in a somewhat unique situation and I'm wondering if I can get some help here. I'm an AMG who graduated way back in 2008. To be honest, my record in school was pretty awful (I had to repeat two clerkships) and I knew I wasn't competitive enough to match into ortho (or any surgical residency), so I just left medicine altogether and started an unrelated business. I thought I could make a decent living with a lot less effort, but I quickly realized that being an entrepreneur involves way more work than I expected and there was no guarantee of any success.

So the following year I finally entered the match, applying to several specialties, and I ended up with a decent IM position. However, several months after I started residency I got an offer from a firm (again outside of medicine) that was too good to refuse, so I just quit my residency and went off to work for them instead. I did well for a few years, but recently the company let me go and I currently find myself unemployed.

I am thinking about applying to residency for a second time, hopefully IM but I'll take FM too if that's what I can get. Yes I know the work is tough, but unlike most jobs being an MD is very stable, especially given this economy. So I ask you guys, what is the best way to re-enter medicine given my situation?? I am an excellent talker and I'm sure I can explain my situation well in an interview, but I think my major hurdle for now is getting letters of recommendation. It's been a long time since I've had any interaction with anyone at my med school, and I don't think anybody at my old residency has anything positive to say about me, given that I left them so abruptly. How should I approach this? Should I call local doctor's offices and ask privately to shadow them for a few days or something? What are my chances of getting in anywhere[/B ]given my situation? Thanks.

What others have to say about you will be more important than what you have to say...because whatever you say is going to be bull**** and people will take what you say with a grain of salt. You are going to have to come forth about your previous residency and whether you like it or not, your previous PD will have say in your future. The thing is that apologizing on your own fruition with no strings attached is completely different than apologizing with the immediate intent to ask for their support....if I was your ex-PD and you came to me with an apology and then told me you were getting back into medicine - i would have very little mercy on you and would think your apology was a fabrication.

from a personal bias, i feel that you have no business in medicine, but from a purely objective perspective, i would say you can still do this. i would try to be as remorseful as possible. i would schedule a face to face with your ex-PD and tell him that you were a dick, that you are sorry for being a dick, and now that you have matured - you no longer intend on being a dick and that your heart lies in medicine. You need to humble yourself and rebuild the only bridge you have left - even if i will be built out of string and hay.

 

[Sheldor]

tell him that you were a dick, that you are sorry for being a dick, and now that you have matured - you no longer intend on being a dick and that your heart lies in medicine.

That is hilarious.

 

[peppy]

If I were you, I'd probably just focus on trying to find another job in the kind of work you've been doing. I think that will probably be a lot easier than trying to get back into medicine, even though I know that it's tough finding work in many professions right now.
I think it is going to be very hard to convince people from your past residency to help you if there were bad feelings when you left. Even if they are no longer holding a grudge about what happened when you left, it could damage their professional reputation if they do vouch for you and you decide to quit again. There's no gain for them in helping you, and they do have a risk of losing something, so you have to try to think of an awfully good reason for why they should stick their necks out for you.
IF your past program director is an especially kind and forgiving person who would be willing to help you, then you may still have a chance, but it's still going to be hard.

Unfortunately for those of us who are on the applicant side, things are getting more competitive in the match every year. There are always a lot of foreign MDs from India and Africa who would love to come to America, so it's not like if these programs don't give you a chance they can't get anyone else to fill the spot. On top of that the medical schools have been increasing their class sizes over the last few years so there are more American grads competing for spots too.
If you do decide to apply, I'd definitely say to cast a very wide net of lower-tier programs in Family Medicine, Pathology, and Psychiatry. Maybe if you're lucky someone might see potential in your application and give you a chance, but I would say think of it as more of a hail mary rather than expecting it to work out.
I suggest applying to Psychiatry because it's fairly non-competitive and psych is different enough from IM that it's possible that psych programs would be willing to look past the fact that you didn't do well in IM. Psych programs do tend to have the same rules about preferring applicants who haven't been out of clinical experience for >5 years, but it's possible you might find someone who would appreciate your "life experience" and maturity despite that. Again, however, I think this is more of a last ditch hail mary attempt than something that's likely to work out, just so you're prepared.

 

[thecampuslegend]

one of the more important questions is do you know for sure whether or not your old PD is still there or have they left?

 

[DrAwsome]

Hi guys,

I posted several dozen times over the years but under different user names, I keep forgetting them

Anyway, I am in a somewhat unique situation and I'm wondering if I can get some help here. I'm an AMG who graduated way back in 2008. To be honest, my record in school was pretty awful (I had to repeat two clerkships) and I knew I wasn't competitive enough to match into ortho (or any surgical residency), so I just left medicine altogether and started an unrelated business. I thought I could make a decent living with a lot less effort, but I quickly realized that being an entrepreneur involves way more work than I expected and there was no guarantee of any success.

So the following year I finally entered the match, applying to several specialties, and I ended up with a decent IM position. However, several months after I started residency I got an offer from a firm (again outside of medicine) that was too good to refuse, so I just quit my residency and went off to work for them instead. I did well for a few years, but recently the company let me go and I currently find myself unemployed.

I am thinking about applying to residency for a second time, hopefully IM but I'll take FM too if that's what I can get. Yes I know the work is tough, but unlike most jobs being an MD is very stable, especially given this economy. So I ask you guys, what is the best way to re-enter medicine given my situation?? I am an excellent talker and I'm sure I can explain my situation well in an interview, but I think my major hurdle for now is getting letters of recommendation. It's been a long time since I've had any interaction with anyone at my med school, and I don't think anybody at my old residency has anything positive to say about me, given that I left them so abruptly. How should I approach this? Should I call local doctor's offices and ask privately to shadow them for a few days or something? What are my chances of getting in anywhere[/B ]given my situation? Thanks.

Although I don't think it will be *easy* by any stretch of the imagination to match in a residency, I unfortunately have to disagree with many of the other responses here. Will you get into a hot specialty like ortho or derm? No, of course not.

However I don't think it's entirely zero chance to match into something like FM, or preventive/occupational medicine. If I were you I would seriously consider prev/occupational medicine, as almost no AMGs ever match into the specialty, mostly foreign grads, and most programs will be happy to have an AMG grad. It's certainly not competitive, and I think it's more of an "understanding" specialty. I think with the whole preventive wave that we are in this country you can certainly do well in such a specialty.

I don't know what your business venture was or what type of firm you worked for, but if you can somehow connect it to a specialty it's not a bad idea. I would certainly try to get some assistance from your previous med school, and perhaps even talk to your old IM PD. Sometimes you can make a case and there is some leniency.

However, I would suggest that you certainly make sure that you are 100% committed to medicine this time and that you won't flake out this time.

Lastly, given how crappy the healthcare environment is, I am not sure how stable it really is for one, and if you can get another job in what your previous gig was and get away from medicine permanently, that would be even better.

But otherwise, I say go for the specialties mentioned, particularly if you can try to get one outside the match. I think even now there are a couple of open spots and perhaps you can make a good case for yourself.

GL

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I suggest applying to Psychiatry because it's fairly non-competitive and psych is different enough from IM that it's possible that psych programs would be willing to look past the fact that you didn't do well in IM. Psych programs do tend to have the same rules about preferring applicants who haven't been out of clinical experience for >5 years, but it's possible you might find someone who would appreciate your "life experience" and maturity despite that. Again, however, I think this is more of a last ditch hail mary attempt than something that's likely to work out, just so you're prepared.

I was worried one of these non-psychiatry types would suggest applying in psychiatry, but you, a psychiatry resident, are suggesting it. I can say my program would not look at the op in a million years, and psychiatrists tend to be more curious about people's motivations for doing things, making it less easy for the op to explain away why he made the decisions he made. I'd also prefer no one sign up for a psychiatry residency unless they actually are somewhat passionate about psychiatry. So I disagree 100% with this recommendation.

I also disagree with the pathology recommendation above. While the hours might be easier in pathology, I think the residency is actually fairly challenging in terms of the knowledge you have to acquire, making it not a great fit for someone who isn't actually interested in pathology (or medicine in general).

 

[peppy]

I was worried one of these non-psychiatry types would suggest applying in psychiatry, but you, a psychiatry resident, are suggesting it. I can say my program would not look at the op in a million years, and psychiatrists tend to be more curious about people's motivations for doing things, making it less easy for the op to explain away why he made the decisions he made. I'd also prefer no one sign up for a psychiatry residency unless they actually are somewhat passionate about psychiatry. So I disagree 100% with this recommendation.

So what do you recommend that he should do, if his goal is to stay in medicine?
You think he shouldn't apply to psych or path, ok, fair enough. I don't think it makes sense to try for IM again because he has a track record of not doing well in it and his previous PD is probably friends with many IM PDs. But what else is realistic for him to try?

I told him upfront that odds are he would be better off staying in his current career, but if he wants to try getting into medicine, it would make sense to at least try lower tier psych programs.
There are psych programs out there that can afford to be selective where he probably won't be considered, yours included. Frankly, I think my own program would screen him out too since we always fill and can afford to be somewhat picky. However, there are lower tier programs that have trouble filling and he may have a chance at places like that.

It's possible that if he is serious about wanting to do medicine again that he will learn to like the specialty he winds up in even if it's not what he planned to do. Plenty of people end up in a specialty they didn't originally want. Most people seem to do all right in spite of that.

Yes, it would be ideal if everyone who went into psychiatry was truly passionate about mental health. The reality though is that our specialty does have plenty of people who go into it for other reasons, and not everyone who goes into it for other reasons is a bad psychiatrist. I used to know a very good FMG psychiatrist who had been an orthopedic surgeon in his previous country. I suspect he probably ended up in psychiatry because it was far easier to get into psych as an FMG than ortho, but he made the best of it.
I think if someone cares about doing well, they can do well in psych even if it's not a calling for them. I don't see it as my role to be the gatekeeper to psych. Someone I might expect to do well in psych may end up washing out and someone who doesn't seem like a natural at psych may actually do well. If someone wants to try for psych, it's between the applicant and the programs to figure out if the person is a good fit or not.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

So what do you recommend that he should do, if his goal is to stay in medicine?
You think he shouldn't apply to psych or path, ok, fair enough. I don't think it makes sense to try for IM again because he has a track record of not doing well in it and his previous PD is probably friends with many IM PDs. But what else is realistic for him to try?

I told him upfront that odds are he would be better off staying in his current career, but if he wants to try getting into medicine, it would make sense to at least try lower tier psych programs.
There are psych programs out there that can afford to be selective where he probably won't be considered, yours included. Frankly, I think my own program would screen him out too since we always fill and can afford to be somewhat picky. However, there are lower tier programs that have trouble filling and he may have a chance at places like that.

It's possible that if he is serious about wanting to do medicine again that he will learn to like the specialty he winds up in even if it's not what he planned to do. Plenty of people end up in a specialty they didn't originally want. Most people seem to do all right in spite of that.

Yes, it would be ideal if everyone who went into psychiatry was truly passionate about mental health. The reality though is that our specialty does have plenty of people who go into it for other reasons, and not everyone who goes into it for other reasons is a bad psychiatrist. I used to know a very good FMG psychiatrist who had been an orthopedic surgeon in his previous country. I suspect he probably ended up in psychiatry because it was far easier to get into psych as an FMG than ortho, but he made the best of it.
I think if someone cares about doing well, they can do well in psych even if it's not a calling for them. I don't see it as my role to be the gatekeeper to psych. Someone I might expect to do well in psych may end up washing out and someone who doesn't seem like a natural at psych may actually do well. If someone wants to try for psych, it's between the applicant and the programs to figure out if the person is a good fit or not.

Honestly, it's not helpful for him, but I don't think he should go back -- or at least I wouldn't support him coming back to any program I'm affiliated with. My program has had enough bad experiences in recent years with residents who aren't sure of what they want to do, and I really don't recommend any other residencies get that experience, especially when there are plenty of other, more certain people out there.

Maybe psychiatry is in some way a practical option for him in that he might maybe match in some horrible psychiatry program somewhere that struggles to fill every year, but I'm still not excited about having this guy who has left a career in medicine twice as a future colleague. While psychiatry (and pathology) training might be viewed as "easy" by some people, I think being a good psychiatrist or a good pathologist is actually a pretty hard endeavor that requires at least some baseline interest in that field. The op has suggested nothing showing any interest in either.