Getting bumped by PI

[soeagerun2or]

I've been working on a manuscript for the past couple of months and presented my findings at several meetings and they have been well received. We intend to submit this paper to a leading journal.

On one of the recent drafts the PI on the project reviewed the author order was changed. I was moved to 2nd, the PI placed himself first, and the other senior surgeon on the project was last.

Is there anything I can do to regain the first author position? I did collect, analyze and interpret the data and I am writing the manuscript. Or should I just be happy to be involved in such a big finding?

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[1Path]

Is there anything I can do to regain the first author position? I did collect, analyze and interpret the data and I am writing the manuscript. Or should I just be happy to be involved in such a big finding?

If your prof is non tenured (assistant prof) I think it will be almost impossible to regain your position on this paper. 1st authorship is THE key to tenure. This IMHO, is why I don't work for assistant profs.😡

I would definitely talk with the PI to at least let her/him know how you feel. I doubt it would change anything, but at least she/he knows where you stand and how you feel about it.

Good luck!

 

[MDPhoDollas]

I would definitely talk with the PI to at least let her/him know how you feel. I doubt it would change anything, but at least she/he knows where you stand and how you feel about it.

if i had ever come at any PI i've worked for with this kind of care bear reaction they would've looked at me like I had a psychological disorder. a few would have hit me in the teeth without hesitation. what kind of advice is this? Going into medicine???? i'd drop the can't-handle-it-without-urinating-in-my-pants-while-flooding-the-room-with-tears attitude stat.

don't do this. be a grown up, suck it up and work on your next publication.

 

[qwopty99]

1st authorship is THE key to tenure. This IMHO, is why I don't work for assistant profs.😡

is it this really true? i'm not doubting it, but can you elaborate (or anyone else chime in?)

what about corresponding author position? i've heard that it's as valuable or sometimes more valuable, than 1st authorship position.

 

[AtmaWeapon]

I agree with MDPhoDollas. This person will be writing a *recommendation* for you which is more important than the first author over second author credibility imo...you definitely want to play on your PI's good side so they don't leave a "bitter taste" of some sort in the letter.

besides, second author is still a big honor 😳

 

[QofQuimica]

I've been working on a manuscript for the past couple of months and presented my findings at several meetings and they have been well received. We intend to submit this paper to a leading journal.

On one of the recent drafts the PI on the project reviewed the author order was changed. I was moved to 2nd, the PI placed himself first, and the other senior surgeon on the project was last.

Is there anything I can do to regain the first author position? I did collect, analyze and interpret the data and I am writing the manuscript. Or should I just be happy to be involved in such a big finding?

I assume that your PI was the one who conceived of the idea for the study, correct? If you didn't design the study yourself, then I agree with the posters who advised you to bite your tongue. You can ask your PI (politely!) about why he switched the order if you guys have the kind of relationship where he'll discuss these things with you. But considering that he changed the order without informing you, I'm not seeing anything good come out of confronting him.

Sorry that this happened to you; it sounds like you did enough work to merit a first authorship. But sometimes life is unfair, and you just have to suck it up.

 

[1Path]

if i had ever come at any PI i've worked for with this kind of care bear reaction they would've looked at me like I had a psychological disorder.

I'll can admit that a lot of people I've come across in academia are just plain soft. It's one thing to do the work and get treated like crap as grad students do. In fact, anyone who has done any substantial research know this happens all the time. As Q said, you just suck it up and move on. It's another to just let people arbitrarily run over you. Based on what the OP stated, she deserves to be first author and if not, then at the very least she should ask why she was removed. Here's the thing. If the OP can't have an adult conversation with her PI, how is she going to defend her dissertation? Respond to having a publication rejected? Respond to having her platform critisized at a national meeting? I say the sooner you get used to dealing with "difficult" situations, the better you get at handling them.

 

[Scottish Chap]

is it this really true? i'm not doubting it, but can you elaborate (or anyone else chime in?)

what about corresponding author position? i've heard that it's as valuable or sometimes more valuable, than 1st authorship position.

No, this point that you mention is not true. Most P.I.'s (the person running the lab and writing the grants) are usually senior author - that means last author. Still, a few of them want to take first authorship if it's a major discovery (and they want to see "P.I. et al." listed everywhere) or if another lab with a P.I. is involved. In the latter case, one P.I. goes first author and the other goes last author. First and last authorship matter for tenure, but generally it's last authorship in a conventional lab.

From my own experience in academia, my advice to the OP would be to let it go. It sounds like you were not involved in the project for a long time and, based on what fairly constitutes first authorship, you really should not be first - that's reserved for the person who came up with the ideas, conducted >80% of the experiments, wrote the paper, and handled the reviewers' comments. I think second authorship is still a huge privilege in this case. It NEVER pays to whine about publications. It just brings out the worst in everyone, and the person complaining has a permanent reputation that is impossible to shake in academia. If you're good (and it sounds like you are), people will know the difference and doors will open for you easily. Good luck!

 

[1Path]

No, this point that you mention is not true. Most P.I.'s (the person running the lab and writing the grants) are usually senior author - that means last author

Not if they don't have tenure at least the majority fo the ones I've come in contact with.

I think a few of you guys are mixing up senior author with having tenure. You can be a senior author without having tenure, but rarely have I seen it work the other way around.

Here's a small sample of the places I've done research where 90% of the time, a nontenured senior author will be listed as first author:

1) NIH - enough said 😉
2) NCI
3) UNC-Chapel Hill
4) Hopkins

So what I'm saying is that I'd bet that the OP's PI does NOT have tenure and if she/he does, then she's/he's a selfish $#%! 😡

 

[Stixman28]

same thing just happened to me, albeit on my abstract. Maybe next time eh? Ive got his word I can be co-first author on the paper.

 

[Scottish Chap]

Not if they don't have tenure at least the majority fo the ones I've come in contact with.

I was a fellow at one of the places on your list. Comparing that experience to working at another similar-caliber institution, I submit to you that the un-tenured assistant professors were ALL listing their name as senior (last) author on manuscripts as soon as they started their lab post-fellowship at the same institution. At one of the places on your list, I saw the P.I. win tenure with senior author papers - without ever having first-author papers during that time. NIH had no problems awarding him RO1's during this time. I'm not doubting your own experience at all and thanks for the input, but the university rather than NIH decides who gets tenure in the places I've experienced....

 

[1Path]

.....but the university rather than NIH decides who gets tenure in the places I've experienced....

And who decides tenure at the NIH, or weren't you aware that researchers at the NIH compete for tenure too??😕But when you think about it, NIH grants in academia = awarding tenure, perhaps the NIH is involved albeit indirectly, with tenure awards in academia.😉

Another consideration is that the non tenure track people I've worked with published in journals like Science, so perhaps that's why they wanted to be listed first? Either way, you couldn't pay me enough to work with someone anywhere again who didn't have tenure.

At one of the places on your list, I saw the P.I. win tenure with senior author papers - without ever having first-author papers during that time.

1 out of how many, probably hundreds I'd imagine. FYI, outliers don't count!😛

 

[Scottish Chap]

Would you like a fish to go with that large chip on your shoulder? 😉

 

[tbo]

Sounds like this conversation has been fueled sufficiently. Just to add data, here at Podunk U in Boston, this happens all the time. With one particular PI, it was precisely for tenure reasons. Someone did all the work, the study design, the arduous data collection, data analysis and interpretation. Also wrote the draft manuscript, but ultimately this PI (an Assoc Prof) took first author (when his role was senior author in nature). A second instance was a full professor taking first authorship.

The world of academia is rife with politics and people trying to climb to the top. Anyone embarking into a career in academia should acquaint themselves with this fact. Do I think this is acceptable behavior? No, it's pretty disgusting but it happens all the time. The only way to battle through this is to simply recognize that any authorship is a good one, prior to becoming an Asst Professor. It's also clear to me that hiring universities are clearly aware of this process and good institutions/interviewers will probe you to find out just how involved you were in particular projects.

The final saving grace is that journals are also wising up to this, having forms to fill out that quantify levels of involvement. Yes, I'm not dumb to the fact that these can also be inaccurate, but at least this is something even a greedy PI won't argue with you on, with respect to getting credit for your work. Check most of the major journals and you'll find at the end a listing of how people contributed (who wrote the paper, who collected data, who ran statistics, etc).

 

[strangeglove]

IMO, you got totally screwed by your advisor and even more by the "second senior surgeon". You have every right to be POed at your PI, even if he's trying to get tenure. Remember, you are also trying to get ahead in the academic world and, if this is indeed going to be a high profile paper, then you've lost out on a great opportunity. I agree that there is little that you can do now, because it sounds like your PI (and his surgeon friend) are totally unscrupulous individuals, which is not uncommon in academics. However, just because it is common does not make it right, and as for those who are telling you to "suck it up," I fear for their graduate students in the future. What you can do from now on is, when you get involved in any project, make an effort to define the authorship at the outset and have a paper trail (i.e. send an e-mail to all authors). Any disagreement at this stage would be much less than the painful situation you are now in. This is also a good way to get a feel for how your collaborators/PI deals with authorship issues. If they bristle at this process, then you know that you have to be careful.

As an aside, I think it is a waste of time for a graduate student to spend time bearing primary responsibility for papers on which they will not be first author. Yes, it is great to have second author publications, but these should be projects that you help out with, rather than take primary responsibility for. This is especially true if the papers cannot be integrated into one's dissertation. There is nothing uglier in academia than exploitation of one's graduate students. It is an unfortunate fact of life, but hopefully our generation will do a better job, rather than perpetuate the status quo. The best PIs celebrate their students' accomplishments, rather than take credit for them.

 

[1Path]

As an aside, I think it is a waste of time for a graduate student to spend time bearing primary responsibility for papers on which they will not be first author.

During the late 90's in the Chemistry Department at UNC-Chapel Hill, you couldn't graduate without a FIRST author paper and I've heard this is true at a lot of highly ranked programs/departments. So with that in mind, I wonder how many folks in this thread would just let the issue disappear like a fart in the wind.😕

strangeglove is right on about getting everything in writing UPFRONT and that integration into one's dissertation issue is HUGE!.👍 In fact, when I interview PI's, authorship is the second question I ask about, second only to compensation. Of course, I already know before the interview they HAVE tenure.

 

[Scottish Chap]

What you can do from now on is, when you get involved in any project, make an effort to define the authorship at the outset and have a paper trail (i.e. send an e-mail to all authors). Any disagreement at this stage would be much less than the painful situation you are now in.

OP - this really is excellent advice! Defining one's role at the outset of the project is really the only way to avoid the bad feelings, and undue credit distribution. It's a bad situation for those most junior and this tactic helps to keep everyone honest.

 

[AtmaWeapon]

strangeglove your advice is solid but you are wrong about

for those who are telling you to "suck it up," I fear for their graduate students in the future

although I'm sure you know that's quite an assumption to make.

secondly, OP asked about what he could do about his current dilemma, " Is there anything I can do to regain the first authorship", so we addressed what he CAN do this time, not what he SHOULD have done. If your opinion differs and you think he should fight it for *this situation* then the message was unclear...but if you think otherwise, bottom line is "suck it up, learn to avoid these problems next time, and move on."

 

[QofQuimica]

strangeglove your advice is solid but you are wrong about


although I'm sure you know that's quite an assumption to make.

secondly, OP asked about what he could do about his current dilemma, " Is there anything I can do to regain the first authorship", so we addressed what he CAN do this time, not what he SHOULD have done. If your opinion differs and you think he should fight it for *this situation* then the message was unclear...but if you think otherwise, bottom line is "suck it up, learn to avoid these problems next time, and move on."

Agree completely.

strangeglove, first of all, the OP is a second year medical student, not a grad student. (Look at his/her recent posts; this person is currently studying for Step 1.) Second of all, unlike the OP, I *have* spent many years as a grad student. If you're a grad student who wants to be a PhD some day, one of the lessons you learn d*** quickly is that you have to pick your battles if you want to go anywhere in this environment. Whatever else you do, you don't alienate the people whose help you are going to need later to launch your career. By all means, pick your advisor wisely, and set out expectations in writing beforehand; that's all excellent advice. But think always about what is going to be best for you in the long term, not just about getting in the last word in any one particular skirmish. Finally, your aspersions on my character stink, and I resent them as much as I possibly CAN resent such a rude, uncalled for comment from some anonymous person on the internet.

 

[soeagerun2or]

To clarify. It's clinical research, yes I'm a second year medical student. The PI is tenured but the other senior author isn't. Also, as I previously stated, we anticipate it will be accepted at a top journal.

My thoughts are that the PI realizes it is a big finding and would like the study to be referenced PI et. al. Also, he wants to help the non-tenured guy by placing him last.

 

[QofQuimica]

To clarify. It's clinical research, yes I'm a second year medical student. The PI is tenured but the other senior author isn't. Also, as I previously stated, we anticipate it will be accepted at a top journal.

My thoughts are that the PI realizes it is a big finding and would like the study to be referenced PI et. al. Also, he wants to help the non-tenured guy by placing him last.

Do you think you can talk to him about it in a non-hostile, calm way and ask for his rationale? I don't know what kind of relationship y'all have, but unless you feel like you can have an honest talk with him, I don't see the point of bringing it up at all. And even then, what if he flat-out tells you that he's trying to help his buddy get tenure, that you're only an M2 and you don't NEED a first authorship? I think we all agree that it's not fair, but you are probably going to come out being the loser if you challenge him. He's a tenured prof who conceived of and planned this study. He could easily turn around and paint you as nothing more than a tech who just enrolled the patients. If he claims that you are over-exaggerating your contribution, do you honestly think the department chair will take your word over his? I hope things wouldn't come to that for you, but it can and does happen; I've seen it. People don't magically become better human beings just because they have MD or PhD after their names, unfortunately. And students are usually not in a position to successfully win a challenge like this. 🙁

 

[ChildNeuro]

Probably you should be happy to get a second author on a paper, which is not so shabby for a medical student, also, having presented the data at a meeting is a great opportunity. Often times medical students are used as lab techs and not brought "inside" a research project as the graduate students are given priority. Obviously, if your PI told you that you would be first author and then *changed* this that is concerning because they must know that it doesn't feel good to be denied something that you were promised. If your PI told you at the start that you may get second author, then now you would be thrilled. I would do the best you can, be very happy with the second author as many students don't get published for research during medical school. In the end the PI may have been justified to be first author because they got the grants in the first place, your project is probably is sub-project of your PI, who may have had the great idea to look at a certain aspect of whatever you are studying. Remember, the PI's job usually is to guide the overall research in the lab and "give" projects to students. If you, through your own intelligence significantly altered the aim of your project to do good science then you may have deserved the first author, but if you had multiple conversations with PI who was directing the research then I think he/she would be justified being first author. Hard work doesn't mean that you will get a publication or a good grade in clinical clerkships either . . . Be thankful that you are getting your name on a publication in the first place.

I would, obviously, consider doing your residency or future research at another institution, because this PI basically went back on what they promised, which shows a lack of respect for you, albeit it may be unitentional. Some medical schools and research institutions don't respect their students after they admit them, and do alot of stuff behind their backs that impact them, this is one example IMHO. I wouldn't complain to the PI, who probably promised too much or didn't evaluate the situation properly. If you complain then the PI can spin it to others that you aren't a team player or are ungrateful, even if you are legitimately correct. The PI did this because he/she assumes that you will be a good little medical student and not complain, and may expect everyone in their lab to be subordinate to their authority, and this in their mind may include stomaching changes to authors on papers, if do you bring up this issue your PI may be perturbed with you. I don't think there is anything you change for future students in this lab, and you may make things worse for future med students if you complain.

 

[TheMightyAngus]

If I received a grant for a research project, collected the data, analyzed it, and wrote most of the paper, should I assume that I will be first author?

The PI came up with the project idea, but I did the majority of the work.

I haven't addressed this issue with the PI, but I have to submit a draft to her and I don't want to offend anyone by the order of names.

Should the order go: TheMightyAngus, Chief of Surgery, Assistant Prof of Radiology, Associate Prof of Surgery, Primary Investigator?

The other coauthors made little contribution other than granting me access to data.

 

[premeddick]

If I received a grant for a research project, collected the data, analyzed it, and wrote most of the paper, should I assume that I will be first author?

The PI came up with the project idea, but I did the majority of the work.

I haven't addressed this issue with the PI, but I have to submit a draft to her and I don't want to offend anyone by the order of names.

Should the order go: TheMightyAngus, Chief of Surgery, Assistant Prof of Radiology, Associate Prof of Surgery, Primary Investigator?

The other coauthors made little contribution other than granting me access to data.

I would get him/her a draft of the paper with no names listed and let your PI decide. Its their lab, their your PI, their decision.

 

[1Path]

If I received a grant for a research project, collected the data, analyzed it, and wrote most of the paper, should I assume that I will be first author?

The PI came up with the project idea, but I did the majority of the work.

Where I've been, if the prof is nontenured and came up with the project idea then no. If the prof is tenured and the article will likely appear in Science or Jama, then the answer is hell no.Honestly, it depends on how generous the PI is willing to be.

Project idea usually = first author as a grad student.👍

 

[QofQuimica]

If I received a grant for a research project, collected the data, analyzed it, and wrote most of the paper, should I assume that I will be first author?

The PI came up with the project idea, but I did the majority of the work.

I haven't addressed this issue with the PI, but I have to submit a draft to her and I don't want to offend anyone by the order of names.

Should the order go: TheMightyAngus, Chief of Surgery, Assistant Prof of Radiology, Associate Prof of Surgery, Primary Investigator?

The other coauthors made little contribution other than granting me access to data.

It's a fair question, but don't ask US; ask HER. Addressing this issue now will save everyone a lot of trouble in the long run. Shoot her an email, tell her you're almost done with the draft, and ask her what order you should list the authors. Then list them however she says to list them. Problem solved.

 

[Myempire1]

Just from my own brief exposure to academia, this seems to happen all the time. Grad/md/mdphd students get fu%ked all the time. I had a friend of mine in your exact shoes and he chose to let it go also. Most informed readers will in the field will recognize that its rare for the PI to actually do the work even if they are 1st author (there are exceptions of course). It's not right but, you rarely have any leverage in such matters, so it does no good to go crazy about it.

When my PI shafted me, I consulted with our department chair, MSTP coordinator, and my committee members to figure out what to do. Of course everyone has their own bias, but the overwhelming suggestion was not to start a fire, because I won't gain anything out of it. Instead, I made sure that my PIs actions would not affect my graduation timeline, made sure my PI was aware that I was very disappointed with his decision, and requested some sort of open-ended rectification in the future. My rectification ended up being nearly worthless, but I think (or hope) that my boss now has a little more respect for me. Either way, I come our looking like I took the high road.

Lastly, to make myself feel better, I joined the "My boss is a douche" group on facebook.

Myempire

 

[joeqwertyui]

Its simple. He's abusing his power and stealing from you. He stole your time, and not only the time on this project but your time on many others because this is the one that counts. Imagine you buy lottery tickets everyday for 20 years and then you finally win and someone steals it. According to you he stole your winning ticket and there really is'nt much you can do if you need recs or if you need to work with him in the future that can get you the first author and still not burn the bridge. These are the types of bastards that i love to see fail so if i were in your place i would do something to screw him over without him knowing you did it. For example, if he is married get a girl to call his home phone when you know his wife is there. 😀😀😀 Or better yet get a hot girl you know to hit on him and then when their making out in his car snap a few shots. If you can get those shots i guarentee you youll be first author on everypaper untill he gets divorced

 

[Jorje286]

Its simple. He's abusing his power and stealing from you. He stole your time, and not only the time on this project but your time on many others because this is the one that counts. Imagine you buy lottery tickets everyday for 20 years and then you finally win and someone steals it. According to you he stole your winning ticket and there really is'nt much you can do if you need recs or if you need to work with him in the future that can get you the first author and still not burn the bridge. These are the types of bastards that i love to see fail so if i were in your place i would do something to screw him over without him knowing you did it. For example, if he is married get a girl to call his home phone when you know his wife is there. 😀😀😀 Or better yet get a hot girl you know to hit on him and then when their making out in his car snap a few shots. If you can get those shots i guarentee you youll be first author on everypaper untill he gets divorced

I think if he came up with the project idea, then he probably deserves first authorship. I agree to let it go, especially if you need LORs. I can't think in any possible way where you can bring the topic up without sounding confrontational. I think if you were a grad student, then it would be a different situation. The best thing to do would be to ask your PI from almost the start of your work about authorship.

 

[ScienceJunkie]

I wonder how many folks in this thread would just let the issue disappear like a fart in the wind.😕

LOL.

at my undergrad, my professor puts his name on every single pub, and there are about 4 projects going on at once...so he's authoring 4-5 papers every semester. thing is, HE owns the lab, HE built up the lab, HE hired/took you under his wing, etc. my friend put it to me this way: w/o him you wouldn't be there, hence he owns everything you do (great logic, huh?)

yet down the hall there's a professor who always puts his name last, after his students. and--surprise--the authorship-hungry prof is a jerk, and the latter one is the nicest guy i know. both have tenure.

it comes down to how they are as a person. even a prof. w/o tenure will let you author 1st if he has morals that rise above the chaos of academia (if, of course, you're like the OP and did >50% of the work)

 

[brewmeistervi]

LOL.

at my undergrad, my professor puts his name on every single pub, and there are about 4 projects going on at once...so he's authoring 4-5 papers every semester. thing is, HE owns the lab, HE built up the lab, HE hired/took you under his wing, etc. my friend put it to me this way: w/o him you wouldn't be there, hence he owns everything you do (great logic, huh?)

yet down the hall there's a professor who always puts his name last, after his students. and--surprise--the authorship-hungry prof is a jerk, and the latter one is the nicest guy i know. both have tenure.

it comes down to how they are as a person. even a prof. w/o tenure will let you author 1st if he has morals that rise above the chaos of academia (if, of course, you're like the OP and did >50% of the work)

Most people in science know the context of the periodical they are reading. When I see a big name on a huge finding and then I see a guy I haven't seen before, I know that the big name guy isn't writing the paper... he is proofreading it (at best) , and the little guy did the work, wrote it up, and was exploited like Vietnamese sweat shop worker. This is how most graduate school is like.

On the other hand, if you have a younger professor, there is an increased likelihood that he will want to write the paper, because he wants to get his voice out into the academic community. This is pretty common for the younger high energy professors... The real big names though, they usually have large numbers people working for them, which means less supervision and more liberty by graduate student to actually produce the publications.

If you think about the situation, it is kind of like a symbiotic relationship, because that little guy can use the big guy's name to really get his research out there. The more press for an article, the more likely you're going to be remembered by people who pay attention.


Admission committee's may be more superficial, but if you are doing research to attract future research jobs, everyone knows how the game is played. When you're on an interview and they ask about the article... I would still use "we wrote the article"