Getting Into Med School Without Hard Sciences - NYTimes Article

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http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/30/nyregion/30medschools.html?_r=1&hp

For generations of pre-med students, three things have been as certain as death and taxes: organic chemistry, physics and the Medical College Admission Test, known by its dread-inducing acronym, the MCAT.

So it came as a total shock to Elizabeth Adler when she discovered, through a singer in her favorite a cappella group at Brown University, that one of the nation’s top medical schools admits a small number of students every year who have skipped all three requirements.

Until then, despite being the daughter of a physician, she said, “I was kind of thinking medical school was not the right track for me.”

Ms. Adler became one of the lucky few in one of the best kept secrets in the cutthroat world of medical school admissions, the Humanities and Medicine Program at the Mount Sinai medical school on the Upper East Side of Manhattan.

The program promises slots to about 35 undergraduates a year if they study humanities or social sciences instead of the traditional pre-medical school curriculum and maintain a 3.5 grade-point average.

For decades, the medical profession has debated whether pre-med courses and admission tests produce doctors who know their alkyl halides but lack the sense of mission and interpersonal skills to become well-rounded, caring, inquisitive healers.

That debate is being rekindled by a study published on Thursday in Academic Medicine, the journal of the Association of American Medical Colleges. Conducted by the Mount Sinai program’s founder, Dr. Nathan Kase, and the medical school’s dean for medical education, Dr. Robert Muller, the peer-reviewed study compared outcomes for 85 students in the Humanities and Medicine Program with those of 606 traditionally prepared classmates from the graduating classes of 2004 through 2009, and found that their academic performance in medical school was equivalent.

“There’s no question,” Dr. Kase said. “The default pathway is: Well, how did they do on the MCAT? How did they do on organic chemistry? What was their grade-point average?”

“That excludes a lot of kids,” said Dr. Kase, who founded the Mount Sinai program in 1987 when he was dean of the medical school, and who is now dean emeritus and a professor of obstetrics and gynecology. “But it also diminishes; it makes science into an obstacle rather than something that is an insight into the biology of human disease.”

Whether the study’s findings will inspire other medical schools to change admissions requirements remains to be seen.

Because MCAT scores are used by U.S. News and World Report and others to rank schools, the most competitive ones fear dropping the test, admissions officials said. And at least two recent studies found that MCAT scores were better than grade-point averages at predicting performance in medical school and on the series of licensing exams that medical students and doctors must take.

“You have to have the proper amount of moral courage to say ‘O.K., we’re going to skip over a lot of the huge barriers to a lot of our students,’ ” said Dr. David Battinelli, senior associate dean for education at Hofstra University School of Medicine.

But, Dr. Battinelli added, “Now let’s see how they’re doing 5 and 10 years down the road.” The Mount Sinai study did not answer the question.

There are a few other schools in the United States and Canada that admit students without MCAT scores, but Mount Sinai appears to have gone furthest in eschewing traditional science preparation, said Dr. Dan Hunt, co-secretary of the Liaison Committee on Medical Education, the medical school accrediting agency.

The students apply in their sophomore or junior years in college and agree to major in humanities or social science, rather than the hard sciences. If they are admitted, they are required to take only basic biology and chemistry, at a level many students accomplish through Advanced Placement courses in high school.

They forgo organic chemistry, physics and calculus — though they get abbreviated organic chemistry and physics courses during a summer boot camp run by Mount Sinai. They are exempt from the MCAT. Instead, they are admitted into the program based on their high school SAT scores, two personal essays, their high school and early college grades and interviews.

The study found that, by some measures, the humanities students made more sensitive doctors: they were more than twice as likely to train as psychiatrists (14 percent compared with 5.6 percent of their classmates) and somewhat more likely — though less so than Dr. Kase had expected — to go into primary care fields, like pediatrics and obstetrics and gynecology (49 percent compared with 39 percent). Conversely, they avoid some fields, like surgical subspecialties and anesthesiology.

But what surprised the authors the most, they said, was that humanities students were significantly more likely than their peers to devote a year to scholarly research (28 percent compared with 14 percent). They scored lower on Step 1 of the Medical Licensing Examination, taken after the second year of medical school, which generally correlates with scientific knowledge. But over all, they ranked about the same in honors grades and in the percentage in the top quarter of the class.

Humanities students were also more likely to take a leave of absence for personal reasons, which could reflect some ambivalence about their choices, the study authors said.

Typically, 5 percent to 10 percent of the class drops out before getting to medical school. Those students cannot handle the science or they have changed their minds about their intention to be a doctor, said Miki Rifkin, the program director. One who dropped out was Jonathan Safran Foer, who became an acclaimed novelist.

Dr. Kase founded the Mount Sinai program shortly after a national report on physician preparation questioned the single-minded focus on hard science.

He began with a few students from five colleges and universities that did not have their own medical schools — Amherst, Brandeis, Princeton, Wesleyan and Williams — because, he said, “we did not want to poach.”

It has been going full tilt for the past 10 years, and received nearly 300 applications last year from more than 80 colleges across the country, though admissions heavily favor elite schools.

Among undergraduates accepted in 2009, the mean SAT math and verbal score was 1444, and the mean freshman G.P.A. was 3.74. About a third of the class had at least one parent who was a physician; among all medical schools, about one in five has a parent who is a doctor.

Among the current crop is Ms. Adler, 21, a senior at Brown studying global political economy and majoring in development studies.

Ms. Adler said she was inspired by her freshman study abroad in Africa. “I didn’t want to waste a class on physics, or waste a class on orgo,” she said. “The social determinants of health are so much more pervasive than the immediate biology of it.”

She added that her parents, however, were “thrilled when I decided to go the M.D. route, because they were worried about my job security.”

A classmate in the program, Kathryn Friedman, 21, graduated from the Chapin School in New York City, before going to Williams, where she is a senior, majoring in political science. Her mother and uncle are doctors at Mount Sinai; her father, Robert Friedman, who works in the entertainment business, is on the Mount Sinai Medical Center board.

The humanities program has allowed her to pursue other interests, like playing varsity tennis and going abroad, she said. When her pre-med classmates hear about the program, she said, “a lot of them are jealous.”

She added, “They are, like, ‘Wow, I wish I had known about that.’ ”
 
http://journals.lww.com/academicmed...raditional_Premedical_Requirements_as.26.aspx

Challenging Traditional Premedical Requirements as Predictors of Success in Medical School: The Mount Sinai School of Medicine Humanities and Medicine Program
Muller, David MD; Kase, Nathan MD

Academic Medicine:
August 2010 - Volume 85 - Issue 8 - pp 1378-1383
doi: 10.1097/ACM.0b013e3181dbf22a
Premedical Requirements

Purpose: Students compete aggressively as they prepare for the MCAT and fulfill traditional premedical requirements that have uncertain educational value for medical and scientific careers and limit the scope of their liberal arts and biomedical education. This study assessed the medical school performance of humanities and social science majors who omitted organic chemistry, physics, and calculus, and did not take the MCAT.

Cited Here...: The authors compared and contrasted the academic outcomes of 85 Humanities and Medicine Program (HuMed) students at Mount Sinai School of Medicine with those of their 606 traditionally prepared classmates for the 2004-2009 graduating classes. The authors analyzed basic science knowledge, clerkship performance, humanism, leadership, community service, research fellowships, distinctions, and honors.

Cited Here...: There were no statistically significant differences between the groups in clerkship honors other than psychiatry (HuMed students outperformed their peers, P < .0001) or in commencement distinctions or honors. Although HuMed students were significantly more likely to secure a scholarly-year mentored project (P = .001), there was no difference in graduating with distinction in research (P = .281). HuMed students were more likely to have lower United States Medical Licensing Examination Step 1 scores (221 ± 20 versus 227 ± 19, P = .0039) and to take a nonscholarly leave of absence (P = .0001). There was a trend among HuMed students toward residencies in primary care and psychiatry and away from surgical subspecialties and anesthesiology.

Cited Here...: Students without the traditional premedical preparation performed at a level equivalent to their premedical classmates.
 
Please don't make 2 different threads which pertain to the same subject..
 
I think its true, there are many things in the pre-reqs and medical school which you will never use in clinical medicine. But remember that medical schools want to make both clinicians and researchers. To be a good researcher you're going to need to speak organic, biochem, and physics fluently.
 
The man who conducted the study also started the program. That sounds like a conflict of interests. Also I was wondering, do the humed people have any additional coursework/assistance while in medical school?
 
So, according to the article they 1) are more likely to drop out for "personal reasons" 2) generally do less well on Step 1 and 3) go into family med, psych or peds.

resounding success.

Ms. Adler, 21, said she was inspired by her freshman study abroad in Africa. "I didn't want to waste a class on physics, or waste a class on orgo," she said. "The social determinants of health are so much more pervasive than the immediate biology of it."

HAHA. 🤣 OK then here is an idea-- don't go into a career concerned with "the immediate biology of it!" What is next, skip gross anatomy because peoples feelings are more important than their immediate biology!

I would agree that pre-meds have become WAY too obsessive about the numbers game, and that it is getting so out of hand that eventually the MCAT and GPA could be rendered meaningless, but skipping science altogether is definitely not the answer.
 
So, according to the article they 1) are more likely to drop out for "personal reasons" 2) generally do less well on Step 1 and 3) go into family med, psych or peds.

resounding success.



HAHA. 🤣 OK then here is an idea-- don't go into a career concerned with "the immediate biology of it!" What is next, skip gross anatomy because peoples feelings are more important than their immediate biology!

I would agree that pre-meds have become WAY too obsessive about the numbers game, and that it is getting so out of hand that eventually the MCAT and GPA could be rendered meaningless, but skipping science altogether is definitely not the answer.


Totally her reasoning for why she doesn't want to take those classes is very flawed. However a lot people have for the longest time been bitching about whether a whole year of organic chemistry is necessary and its applicability. Physics in concept is important for fluid mechanics and as such is relevant to a whole bunch of anatomical things.
 
I dont know why this is surprising to anybody. Is there any med student out there that uses or remembers orgo or chem? I, for one, forgot that crap about 2 seconds after the final. It is just a hoop you have to jump through, so mount sinai created a different set of requirments. Its not that big a deal.
 
I dont know why this is surprising to anybody. Is there any med student out there that uses or remembers orgo or chem? I, for one, forgot that crap about 2 seconds after the final. It is just a hoop you have to jump through, so mount sinai created a different set of requirments. Its not that big a deal.
You forgot all of it? Good luck interpreting an ABG or an anion gap. Even better, you'll have a blast in biochemistry and physiology.

I think this program and the article are dumb. You can have students who are good at both. They are NOT mutually exclusive. You just have to find a way to select for both rather than one or the other. There are more than enough applicants in the pool that adcoms can "have it all."
 
This isn't the only school that doesn't require any science courses or the MCAT. McMaster in Canada hasn't required either for application in years, although beginning this year, they require the MCAT but only consider your VR score. They still do not require any science courses.
 
This is a really cool program, but the thing is that 99% of the people who do this program would have gotten accepted into medical school anyways, had they gone the traditional route. For a select group of people who are very bright and good standardized test takers, science courses aren't necessary to show competence. But I think in general, for a person that isn't super bright, demonstrating competence in basic sciences like orgo/phys/bio and scoring above a certain threshold on the MCAT is indicative of one's ability to succeed in med school.

I knew a pediatrician who did this program and he graduated AOA at Mt. Sinai...he explained that the summer boot camp was 8 weeks and I think he said he shadowed physicians in the morning and attended orgo/physics in the afternoon. This program isn't that much different than the early assurance programs out there, or the 8 year BS/MD ones, in that it's a cool shortcut, but almost everyone who gets accepted into these would have gotten in med school anyways if they did it the traditional way, since they are the cream of the crop of pre-meds. It hardly shows that medical schools should adopt this approach on a national scale or that prerequisites are meaningless of one's ability to succeed in med school.
 
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You forgot all of it? Good luck interpreting an ABG or an anion gap. Even better, you'll have a blast in biochemistry and physiology.

I already finished first year and did just fine. You have a point about general chem, I guess I did not forget it all. Orgo, however is completely gone. For the record I am in favor of the pre-reqs, if you did not have them people could just apply to med school on a whim and there are already far too many applicants.
 
maybe their lack of hard science background also explains their lower step 1 scores..? sounds like an interesting program. i know i hated the pre-reqs, but only because most of the time they seemed irrelevant. as soon as something was made interesting (this is how such and such works in the body) it stuck with me.
 
I already finished first year and did just fine. You have a point about general chem, I guess I did not forget it all. Orgo, however is completely gone. For the record I am in favor of the pre-reqs, if you did not have them people could just apply to med school on a whim and there are already far too many applicants.
Nobody remembers the details of a Hofmann rearrangement, nor do you need to, but I think you underestimate how much you do remember and how much it contributes to understanding things in the future.
 
You don't need to take a test to get into Chiropractic Schools either.

The people who buy into this program are the people who watched "Patch Adams" one too many times, and think that"good doctors only sit and hold their patients hand.

And for those of you who haven't figured it out yet. The rational behind Orgo and Physics is not because you need to know all of it to understand medicine but because a) they are difficult and you need to be able to handle difficult scientific coursework. b) they provide a foundational knowledge base. You may not remember every single reaction mechanism or formula that you learned, but you will (hopefully) remember the big picture principles. The only way you can gain a true understanding of those big picture concepts is by learning the details. c) The teach you how to problem solve, think critically, analyze a constellation of information, determine what is pertinent, and find the solution.

I know some liberal arts major will talk about how they got that in their "interpersonal studies of hairy-legged lesbianology" course, but they're wrong. The fact is that most liberal arts degrees were invented so that people who couldn't handle real degree programs could go to college too. How's that?1 Let the flame war begin!!!
 
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You can have students who are good at both. They are NOT mutually exclusive. You just have to find a way to select for both rather than one or the other.

I think this is the main issue. Our society has led us to believe that one is either good at science and math or good at humanities and social science. This is stupid. Brilliant people will be brilliant at whatever they do/want to do.
 
I think this is the main issue. Our society has led us to believe that one is either good at science and math or good at humanities and social science. This is stupid. Brilliant people will be brilliant at whatever they do/want to do.


True that. I know dozens of science majors who have interests and are talented in philosophy, politics, music, art, etc.

I have yet to meet a sociology or communications major who even posesses a rudimentary understanding of the principles of quantum mechanics or relativity.
 
Here's the big issue:

Everyone knows that if you want to get into med school, you must take hard sciences. So if you never took hard sciences, then you obviously did not plan on being a doctor in advance. If you didn't plan on being a doctor until right before you applied for med school, then how bad do you really want it?

And I think that we'd all agree that in the end, success is most often measured by how bad you want it...
 
Like almost the entire application process, taking hard courses is a hoop to jump through. It proves that you're capable of doing well in science courses and are dedicated enough to take the classes you otherwise wouldn't "waste" time on.

Pretty ridiculous if you ask me.
 
maybe their lack of hard science background also explains their lower step 1 scores..?
That's what the article seems to be implying, but it's not entirely clear to me what direction the causation is going in.

Another explanation could be that there's this group of students out there that aren't too good at Step I type science tests and it's these same students that are more likely to seek out a Humanities program that allows them to avoid hard science classes (i.e., these same kids could easily still get worse scores on their Step I even if they had taken hard science classes).

But if they're seen as capable clinicians on the wards and in their future residencies, I'm not really sure it matters too much?
 
merge it with the other one. don't know how. thanks.
 
About a third of the class had at least one parent who was a physician; among all medical schools, about one in five has a parent who is a doctor.

The program recruits wealthy students who can pay the full price tag.

1. Students who require financial aid have to hope that Mount Sinai will give them a good package.

2. If Mount Sinai doesn't give them a good package, the requirements of the program (can't take science pre-med courses, can't take MCAT) make them uncompetitive elsewhere.

3. Mount Sinai lacks an incentive to provide competitive aid packages, because the students are already committed.

For a rich applicant, none of these are concerns. But for most of us, it's a deal-breaker.

Couldn't it be that a wealthy applicant who can afford the application fees and interview costs for applying to residencies is more likely to succeed at getting the residency they want? The article doesn't explore the socio-economics at all.
 
The program recruits wealthy students who can pay the full price tag.

1. Students who require financial aid have to hope that Mount Sinai will give them a good package.

2. If Mount Sinai doesn't give them a good package, the requirements of the program (can't take science pre-med courses, can't take MCAT) make them uncompetitive elsewhere.

3. Mount Sinai lacks an incentive to provide competitive aid packages, because the students are already committed.

For a rich applicant, none of these are concerns. But for most of us, it's a deal-breaker.

Couldn't it be that a wealthy applicant who can afford the application fees and interview costs for applying to residencies is more likely to succeed at getting the residency they want? The article doesn't explore the socio-economics at all.


I was thinking the same thing. "Although the program does tend to pick applicants from prestigious schools." I kind of got the point.
 
learning is good for the brain, even if you don't use it in medicine.

Taking ochem and physics opened my mind and changed my thinking. I am a better problem solver because of physics and my visual skills improved immensely after doing well and tutoring ochem.
 
it seems really gimmicky
 
You don't need to take a test to get into Chiropractic Schools either.

The people who buy into this program are the people who watched "Patch Adams" one too many times, and think that"good doctors only sit and hold their patients hand.

And for those of you who haven't figured it out yet. The rational behind Orgo and Physics is not because you need to know all of it to understand medicine but because a) they are difficult and you need to be able to handle difficult scientific coursework. b) they provide a foundational knowledge base. You may not remember every single reaction mechanism or formula that you learned, but you will (hopefully) remember the big picture principles. The only way you can gain a true understanding of those big picture concepts is by learning the details. c) The teach you how to problem solve, think critically, analyze a constellation of information, determine what is pertinent, and find the solution.

I know some liberal arts major will talk about how they got that in their "interpersonal studies of hairy-legged lesbianology" course, but they're wrong. The fact is that most liberal arts degrees were invented so that people who couldn't handle real degree programs could go to college too. How's that?1 Let the flame war begin!!!

👍👍

So few positions, so many applicants. I'm sure they can get people who are good at both (humanities, hard sciences). Also the MCAT and GPA and hard science performance are just good (could be correlated with step 1 performance) filters to use. You need some means of narrowing down all the applicants initially. Also not having those requirements would cause the applicant pool to skyrocket making the problem worse.

Med schools try really hard to make sure nobody flunks out. They want everyone to finish. and

Humanities students were also more likely to take a leave of absence for personal reasons, which could reflect some ambivalence about their choices, the study authors said.

is just not good. I think the difficulty, for most students, of the hard sciences selects for students who are more determined (less ambivalent) and willing to put in a long-term effort.
 
That's what the article seems to be implying, but it's not entirely clear to me what direction the causation is going in.

Another explanation could be that there's this group of students out there that aren't too good at Step I type science tests and it's these same students that are more likely to seek out a Humanities program that allows them to avoid hard science classes (i.e., these same kids could easily still get worse scores on their Step I even if they had taken hard science classes).

But if they're seen as capable clinicians on the wards and in their future residencies, I'm not really sure it matters too much?
aaah yes, the endless causation/correlation issue. i don't know how much hardcore science psychiatry demands (or what board scores it requires), but perhaps someone can provide some insight? since it said they were more likely to go into psych.
learning is good for the brain, even if you don't use it in medicine.
not sure why but this made me :laugh:
(the quote about leave of absence)
is just not good. I think the difficulty, for most students, of the hard sciences selects for students who are more determined (less ambivalent) and willing to put in a long-term effort.
i wonder though, how many students who start out as pre-med end up dropping out. out of the people who expect to take the mcat. i saw something on here before of someone in a small school saying that maybe half that started out as pre-med (not as a major but rather an intention or track) ended up actually applying. although a leave of absence means they came back, right? so maybe their odds are even better than most?

this whole thing is quite interesting, i'd like to see more on it 🙂
 
wonder though, how many students who start out as pre-med end up dropping out. out of the people who expect to take the mcat. i saw something on here before of someone in a small school saying that maybe half that started out as pre-med (not as a major but rather an intention or track) ended up actually applying. although a leave of absence means they came back, right? so maybe their odds are even better than most?

Well it might stop those who are less determined from ever trying (hard sciences path to med school) but I was mainly focusing on those that have actually gotten through the courses. Those have overcome an obstacle that is not present in the other path.

I'm sure many drop out of pre-med. But in a way, the greater the attrition rate (in the pre-med major, not med school), the better the point I brought up.
 
They're going to rely on high school SAT instead of the MCAT and hard sciences? That doesn't make any sense. It sounds to me like a way for well connected upper class families to get their kids into med school who otherwise couldn't cut it for ochem and the MCAT. Like this Ms. Friedman student, studying global political economy, with a mother who is a physician at Mt. Sinai and her father is on the board there as well? Wow I wonder why SHE got in to this program, which is apparently designed to increased "access" to medical school to a "broader range" of students. Is it really doing that?
 
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While I think ignoring the science is counter-productive to a successful medical career, it could be argued that social determinants are much more important. Imagine how much HIV could be cut down in Africa if they weren't convinced by the church that condoms are bad for you. There's a legitimate argument to make. What's the point of having the science if it cannot be applied?

I also think it's very pretentious to laugh at people going into primary care or psychiatry. Last time I checked there was a shortage.

So, according to the article they 1) are more likely to drop out for "personal reasons" 2) generally do less well on Step 1 and 3) go into family med, psych or peds.

resounding success.



HAHA. 🤣 OK then here is an idea-- don't go into a career concerned with "the immediate biology of it!" What is next, skip gross anatomy because peoples feelings are more important than their immediate biology!

I would agree that pre-meds have become WAY too obsessive about the numbers game, and that it is getting so out of hand that eventually the MCAT and GPA could be rendered meaningless, but skipping science altogether is definitely not the answer.
 
This is stupid... I dont want *******es getting a step ahead of me for a reason as flawed as that.
 
Here's the big issue:

Everyone knows that if you want to get into med school, you must take hard sciences. So if you never took hard sciences, then you obviously did not plan on being a doctor in advance. If you didn't plan on being a doctor until right before you applied for med school, then how bad do you really want it?

And I think that we'd all agree that in the end, success is most often measured by how bad you want it...

So the longer you have thought you wanted to be a doctor the more passionate you are and, therefore, the better you will be as a doctor?

That is totally absurd.
 
I was thinking the same thing. "Although the program does tend to pick applicants from prestigious schools." I kind of got the point.

Yeah, I think this is a key point. You have to have some mechanism to give out the valued med school spots. For all its flaws, under the current system it doesn't matter who your parents are or how fancy your school is -- if you work real hard, get good grades and rock the MCAT you can get in. That's a good thing. The mechanism in the article just seems like a way for rich, connected people to grab some of the med school spots without having to compete with the rest of us.
 
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