getting into med schools 20-30 years ago. easier, harder?

[thegame11]

I am just curious about this. There really isn't any other purpose 🙂

1) Has the competition to get into medical school gone up compared to 20 years ago?

2) Did the people who have lower stats go into DO schools 20 years ago?

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[EgyptianDoc]

The number of matriculants has been pretty consistent since 1982 (~16-18K/yr). It's the increase in applicants that makes it so much harder now than in the past. The same trend goes for osteopathic schools. Their GPA/MCAT averages keep increasing every year. Bottom line is schools are being more selective.

Source: http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/charts1982to2010.pdf

 

[DOwnage]

I've heard from numerous doctors that said how they make you jump through a lot more hoops to "qualify" for medical schools. Yes, the rules for shadowing, volunteering, and all that other stuff is not technically required, but they've in a sense upped the ante and now to have a really good chance at matriculating, you need to have awesome grades, high MCAT, tons of extracurriculars, shadowing, research, etc. Back then, you just had to be a good student and have a good MCAT. Relating to the post above, with the increase number of applicants, med schools have to get creative with how they can weed out the "unworthy".

 

[JeetKuneDo]

My old pediatrician told me on his mcat he had a question that asked what temperature do you set the oven to in order to make roast beef. Probably bs-ing me though.

 

[VeeTeeHokies]

The best doctor I know said that he would have never gotten into medical school with today's standards. Further, the other 4 doctors listening to our conversation agreed and said they would not be sitting there with us either. Long story short, it's getting harder and will continue getting harder. I have higher stats than 4/5 of the doctors sitting there during that conversation had and I'm hardly even competitive.

 

[Neuron14]

My old pediatrician told me on his mcat he had a question that asked what temperature do you set the oven to in order to make roast beef. Probably bs-ing me though.

Yeah, the MCAT used to have a "current events" section as well.

http://www.unmc.edu/Community/ruralmeded/history_of_the_mcat.htm

 

[DbDan]

The best doctor I know said that he would have never gotten into medical school with today's standards. Further, the other 4 doctors listening to our conversation agreed and said they would not be sitting there with us either. Long story short, it's getting harder and will continue getting harder. I have higher stats than 4/5 of the doctors sitting there during that conversation had and I'm hardly even competitive.

This is so true.

Friend's Dad's family had money, told him he wasn't allowed to get any of it unless he went to medical school. He slacked off and went to UCI after undergrad.

Doctor I work for had lower stats than I have and got in to Western years ago and said he was better than some.

Many other doctors I have spoken to have told me how much easier it was when they went to school and expressed that they don't agree with many of the hoops we have to jump through in order to even be considered.

 

[EgyptianDoc]

The best doctor I know said that he would have never gotten into medical school with today's standards. Further, the other 4 doctors listening to our conversation agreed and said they would not be sitting there with us either. Long story short, it's getting harder and will continue getting harder. I have higher stats than 4/5 of the doctors sitting there during that conversation had and I'm hardly even competitive.

Just asked my dad to see what he had to say about this. He doesn't think he'd get in by today's standards either and he's been a practicing surgeon for almost 30 years. It's tough these days! Too many over-qualified applicants! I think the MCAT should somehow incorporate personality testing... anyone else agree? Isn't it supposed to change in 2013? I don't know if that was just a rumor.

Edit: P.S. "pre-med" in the US is bull****! Every doctor I've talked to has said this.

 

[VeeTeeHokies]

This is so true.

Friend's Dad's family had money, told him he wasn't allowed to get any of it unless he went to medical school. He slacked off and went to UCI after undergrad.

Doctor I work for had lower stats than I have and got in to Western years ago and said he was better than some.

Many other doctors I have spoken to have told me how much easier it was when they went to school and expressed that they don't agree with many of the hoops we have to jump through in order to even be considered.

Just asked my dad to see what he had to say about this. He doesn't think he'd get in by today's standards either and he's been a practicing surgeon for almost 30 years. It's tough these days! Too many over-qualified applicants! I think the MCAT should somehow incorporate personality testing... anyone else agree? Isn't it supposed to change in 2013? I don't know if that was just a rumor.

Edit: P.S. "pre-med" in the US is bull****!

What I've pretty much learned throughout all of this is that you have to pay your dues to get in somewhere just to learn the basics (of course you want it to be somewhere you like in order to make these 4 years enjoyable). Once you get in, you learn the same stuff as you do everywhere else... but the real learning is in the postgraduate experiences and patient interaction that you have. It takes more than medical school to make a physician. Unfortunately it's a prerequisite. 🙄

 

[EgyptianDoc]

In regards to the MCAT changing, I just found this article on SDN. It says that in the 70's "the AAMC put forth substantial effort to enhance the ability of the MCAT to assess personal qualities. "Compassion, coping ability, decision-making ability, inter-professional relations, realistic self-appraisal, sensitivity in interpersonal relations, and staying power-physical and motivational" were characteristics deemed important for practicing physicians (3). The project, however, was abandoned." Not sure why this was but it should be brought back. The article also says that the "MCAT review committee" or MR5 is planning on giving the test a major overhaul. It could be completely different in '13 from what it is today.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

Yeah, the MCAT used to have a "current events" section as well.

http://www.unmc.edu/Community/ruralmeded/history_of_the_mcat.htm

Just read that article and some of its links and I'm fascinated. This page is especially worth a look: http://www.unmc.edu/Community/ruralmeded/mcat_correlations.htm

A quote:

"That many idealistic students do make it through the process, despite the distorted signals we send them about what we are looking for, is no guarantee that sufficient numbers will continue to do so going forward. If more such intelligent and dedicated idealists were to perceive that we would give as much weight to what's in their hearts as to what's in their heads, a career in medicine would no doubt attract them strongly. As it is, I'm persuaded that many don't perceive this balance in our selection criteria, and turn away convinced that medicine is for grade-grubbing Philistines but not for them."

God...is this ever true. I knew so many people that would've been great doctors but backed away because of their perception that medical schools were just looking for the "grade-grubbers".

 

[JaggerPlate]

It's all anecdotal, but every doc I talk to is shocked by what I've done, my stats, etc, and says it was 100% different/easier when they got into it years ago.

 

[EgyptianDoc]

Just read that article and some of its links and I'm fascinated. This page is especially worth a look: http://www.unmc.edu/Community/ruralmeded/mcat_correlations.htm

A quote:

"That many idealistic students do make it through the process, despite the distorted signals we send them about what we are looking for, is no guarantee that sufficient numbers will continue to do so going forward. If more such intelligent and dedicated idealists were to perceive that we would give as much weight to what's in their hearts as to what's in their heads, a career in medicine would no doubt attract them strongly. As it is, I'm persuaded that many don't perceive this balance in our selection criteria, and turn away convinced that medicine is for grade-grubbing Philistines but not for them."

God...is this ever true. I knew so many people that would've been great doctors but backed away because of their perception that medical schools were just looking for the "grade-grubbers".

So true, especially really mature friends that have amazing hearts. I know exactly what you're talking about... I've seen it happen way too many times. I'm so dedicated but even I've thought about throwing in the towel... I just can't get myself to do it. I try to motivate those types of people to keep going...

 

[JeetKuneDo]

Man, I wish I was born 20 years earlier now.

 

[ManUnderFire]

Man, I wish I was born 20 years earlier now.

Tell me about it. I think I was born in the wrong century...definitely should'a been a dragon slayer, haha.

But I would settle for the 60's...cuz the 70's/80's were awesome decades!

 

[JaggerPlate]

I wouldn't mind being a doctor in the 80s ... when there was legit money in it 😀

 

[sedaniel]

EASIER. lol. I even know a doc who graduated from med school just a decade ago and told me if he had to reapply today, he wouldn't get in. Haha.

 

[DOwnage]

I wouldn't mind being a doctor in the 80s ... when there was legit money in it 😀

I'd be retired by now.

 

[MossPoh]

Of course, grade inflation is pretty rampant compared to even 30 years ago. My dad went to med school from 1960-64. He never had to take the MCAT. Only applied to two med schools and got into both.

He also talked about his undergrad and it just seemed radically different than now. He was a zoology major and had to do many dissections on his own time. He also talked about how A's were pretty uncommon and very difficult to get back then.

It is impossible to really compare between different eras. As one gets older they tend to forget the negative crap.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

Tell me about it. I think I was born in the wrong century...definitely should'a been a dragon slayer, haha.

But I would settle for the 60's...cuz the 70's/80's were awesome decades!

I wouldn't mind being a doctor in the 80s ... when there was legit money in it 😀

ONly problem with this era is... where my iphones at?

 

[ManUnderFire]

ONly problem with (80's) era is... where my iphones at?

Why bother with an iphone when you could lug around a cellular phone the size of a textbook for communication, and a bike sized boom-box for music

 

[oldbearprofessor]

A peanut farmer was the president of the US when I applied/started med school. Some differences:

1. The MCAT mattered then, but there were few folks who took the limited prep classes. Basically you just took the test after reading a book or two.

2. Shadowing was common but more limited than now.

3. They didn't ask much about community service.

4. GPA was important, but 3.5 was pretty good at all but a few places.

5. Interview mattered a lot both then and now. Probably relatively more important then.

6. Most folks only applied to 5-10 schools.

On the whole, it was easier then, but the differences are not as night and day as some old-timers might claim. There was less expected in terms of shadowing/volunteer work, but it was still very competitive based on GPA and MCAT.

 

[sustentacular]

Does anyone know if the MCAT used to be scored differently? I work with one doc who says he got a 60.

 

[ronaldo23]

I don't have the hard data on hand, but I remember that for MDschools, in the 1990s applications hit a peak, with like 50,000+ for 17000 spots.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Does anyone know if the MCAT used to be scored differently? I work with one doc who says he got a 60.

All I know is there used to be a hilarious like ... 'common knowledge' type section or something??? I dunno. Someone posted some questions from those old sections a while back and it was funny.

 

[juliegirl]

I've heard from numerous doctors that said how they make you jump through a lot more hoops to "qualify" for medical schools. Yes, the rules for shadowing, volunteering, and all that other stuff is not technically required, but they've in a sense upped the ante and now to have a really good chance at matriculating, you need to have awesome grades, high MCAT, tons of extracurriculars, shadowing, research, etc. Back then, you just had to be a good student and have a good MCAT. Relating to the post above, with the increase number of applicants, med schools have to get creative with how they can weed out the "unworthy".

I have shadowed many different doctors in different specialties and almost every single one of them have said this exact same thing.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

All I know is there used to be a hilarious like ... 'common knowledge' type section or something??? I dunno. Someone posted some questions from those old sections a while back and it was funny.

Yep, I guess my pediatrician wasn't bsing me after all with his story that one of his questions asked about roast beef. Also, I think he said that back then they never knew their exact score, only in what range of scores they got.

 

[painmd87]

In the opinion of at least 3 physicians in the 50-60 age bracket, it is easier now than it was back then. All three went to state medical schools and practice in varying specialties (mfm, IM, neuro).

In independent interviews, they felt that it was easier now because there are more schools (although they admitted there are more applicants), less reward ($$), greater risk (lawsuits), and a less rewarding career awaiting (government/insurance oversight).

I'm in no way suggesting that they are right and the other 20ish posters here are wrong, I just wanted to put forth that there are some who do feel that it is easier today than it was 20-30 years ago.

On a surprising note, all three felt that veterinary school is significantly harder to get into today than any medical school. I found that very interesting.

 

[avatarftw]

One doctor that took the old version of the MCAT with the "current events" section told me that it was a beast; they could ask you ANYTHING. Who is the most famous opera singer, the composer of X classical piano music, etc.

Yeah, the MCAT used to have a "current events" section as well.

http://www.unmc.edu/Community/ruralmeded/history_of_the_mcat.htm

 

[avatarftw]

Just because 3 people feel that something is true doesn't make it right. For example, I may feel that becoming a doctor is harder than getting a PhD in mathematics; I may be right or wrong.

I saw the statistics on admission rates for vet schools and they were very similar to MD acceptance rates. In addition, not all vet schools require the veterinary test; some accept the GRE which, to be fair, is considerable easier than the MCAT. In these cases, getting into med school would be more difficult. Just because there are less schools doesn't mean that its harder to get in; if there are correspondingly less applicants then it evens out. I'm surprised at how some attendings don't understand this basic concept.

In the opinion of at least 3 physicians in the 50-60 age bracket, it is easier now than it was back then. All three went to state medical schools and practice in varying specialties (mfm, IM, neuro).

In independent interviews, they felt that it was easier now because there are more schools (although they admitted there are more applicants), less reward ($$), greater risk (lawsuits), and a less rewarding career awaiting (government/insurance oversight).

I'm in no way suggesting that they are right and the other 20ish posters here are wrong, I just wanted to put forth that there are some who do feel that it is easier today than it was 20-30 years ago.

On a surprising note, all three felt that veterinary school is significantly harder to get into today than any medical school. I found that very interesting.

 

[PeachyPhd]

Um, not to be rude, but...

Who cares if it is easier or harder or the same difficulty to get into medical school 20 years ago?

It doesn't change the process. It is supposed to make 'us' feel better?

 

[JaggerPlate]

On a surprising note, all three felt that veterinary school is significantly harder to get into today than any medical school. I found that very interesting.

Statistically, I think the ratios are worse (applicants:seats) for vet school compared to med school, but I don't think the requirements (academics, testing, volunteering) are as nuts/cutthroat at med school.

 

[IamaBanana]

One doctor that took the old version of the MCAT with the "current events" section told me that it was a beast; they could ask you ANYTHING. Who is the most famous opera singer, the composer of X classical piano music, etc.

My impression, from speaking to someone who took it, was that it was actually quite easy for Americans to do well on that section. It ended up being a subtly racist way of ensuring that immigrants would get a few points knocked off their total. More specifically, her test asked the question "who was Winnie the Pooh?" Anyone brought up in an American family would get this question right easily whereas those from other cultures were caught. Obviously I wouldn't want to suggest that there was racism in the US medical system in the 60s 🙄, but that does seem to be the way it worked out.

 

[The Poet Sings]

My impression, from speaking to someone who took it, was that it was actually quite easy for Americans to do well on that section. It ended up being a subtly racist way of ensuring that immigrants would get a few points knocked off their total. More specifically, her test asked the question "who was Winnie the Pooh?" Anyone brought up in an American family would get this question right easily whereas those from other cultures were caught. Obviously I wouldn't want to suggest that there was racism in the US medical system in the 60s 🙄, but that does seem to be the way it worked out.

reminds me of some intelligence test thing i took when i was in elementary school to see if i should be placed into gifted classes. there was a passage on baseball. i'm an immigrant and we don't play baseball where i come from. i searched all over the article for the answer, the question was something about how many points if someone hit a home run and some other crap happened. couldn't figure it out bc it didn't mention a number i needed, since i was supposed to just already know it as general knowledge. pissed me off. this was ages ago and i still remember it, because it was so aggravating. oh well, i ended up in gifted anyways!

 

[JeetKuneDo]

Um, not to be rude, but...

Who cares if it is easier or harder or the same difficulty to get into medical school 20 years ago?

It doesn't change the process. It is supposed to make 'us' feel better?

It makes me a tiny bit better.

 

[TPBC]

Does anyone know if the MCAT used to be scored differently? I work with one doc who says he got a 60.

FYI, I'm looking at an "Examinee's Report of Scores" from a MCAT dated Oct, 1972 and there are four categories: 1) verbal; 2) quantitative ability; 3) general information; and 4) science.

Each of the scores of the testing pool were to average around 500. The score sheet (from a successful applicant) I'm looking at has a science score of 645 which corresponded to the 89 (+ or - 07) percentile and the quantitative score was 575 which corresponded to the 57th (+ or -14) percentile. The general information category was the one quizzed the applicant on current events and other related matters.

A blast from the past...