Getting rid of the Ochem year?

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Frazier said:
So, look who's the tutor now?! 😱

Thanks for the info - I'll stick it in a doc for my future reference. 👍
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Haha awesome =D. Like I said, any questions in the future - don't hesitate to ask. I keep telling my pre-med friends in gen chem how to get an A in Orgo. Hopefully they're listening 😀
 
I would not trust a doctor who has not taken organic chemistry. There is a reason these classes are required. It's because they help produce awesome doctors. Yes, it's a hard class, but its background knowledge that builds you as an academic citizen and as a free-thinking individual. You need the skills that synthesis teaches you in order to think more quickly about other problems presented to you in human biology.

I think people should think of organic chem as a huge cognitive-behavioral treatment for rewiring the brains of pre-meds to get them thinking more like physicians. Think of it as a mind-altering drug that you have to embrace through doing well in the class. AKA: the power of education
 
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Eyti said:
I would not trust a doctor who has not taken organic chemistry. There is a reason these classes are required. It's because they help produce awesome doctors. Yes, it's a hard class, but its background knowledge that builds you as an academic citizen and as a free-thinking individual. You need the skills that synthesis teaches you in order to think more quickly about other problems presented to you in human biology.

I think people should think of organic chem as a huge cognitive-behavioral treatment for rewiring the brains pre-meds to get them thinking more like physicians. Think of it as a mind-altering drug that you have to embrace through doing well in the class. AKA: the power of education
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I don't know about free-thinking citizen but it definitely helps in the biosciences.
 
I'm not sure about being a "mind altering drug" (although using basic orgo knowledge you can synthesize ecstasy, cocaine, crystal meth, etc.), but chem concentrators approach orgo in a completely different way than most premeds. It's almost like their (our) interest in the subject reinforces understanding and makes the topics a lot easier.

ishchayill said:
OChem is the foundation of biochem. It is not some abstract science whose only function is to weed out weak students. Having said that, they should eliminate parts of it from the premed curriculum, such as Diels-Alder and the rest of C-C bond synthesis, polymers, aromatic reactions, and some random subjects (spectroscopy should stay because it gives the student experience with interpreting abstract data on graphs/charts). It should all be consolidated into one semester, and replace the eliminated one with a requirement of molecular genetics, imo.
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This is stupid, since pericyclic reactions are KEY transformations in the synthesis of various bioimimetic precursors as well as natural hormones such as estrogen (in which a Diels-Alder is the final step, coincidentally). I don't know which schools other than mine incorporate C-C bond synthesis (I assume you're talking about transition metal chemistry?) into their intro orgo sequence.

And teaching a full year of orgo in 1 semester would be so rushed and incomprehensible that it would be counter-productive (again, my school has a class like this, and it's one of the lowest rated science classes by the student body).
 
Everybody here is approaching the idea of these prereqs from the perspective of a practicing physician. Yes, in that case, ochem might not be the most useful thing in the world.

However, keep in mind that the world of medicine also depends on research. MDs do research too, along with the MD/PhDs. In that situation, having an understanding of science at a fundamental level is important to be able to keep up with new developments.

Yes, pchem and fluid mechanics and such are important at a fundamental level, too. However, they are more advanced and would be impractical for someone with, say, a biology major. Organic chemistry is actually an introductory level class at most universities.
 
J1515 said:
Haven't educational degrees been dumbed down enough? First you've got no-name offshore MD schools taking anyone with a pulse, then you've got DO schools accepting people with 22's on the MCAT and 3.0 GPAs (luckily this isn't the case anymore), and now we've got the DNP degree which doesn't require any challenging basic science classes, period. There is a method to the madness of the pre-med curricula of undergrad schools. Organic chem is a class that tests the ability to memorize large amounts of information as well as problem solving and analytical thinking. I think the general skills it tests are a great preparation for med school and it needs to continue to be used as a weedout class.

Don't fix what isn't broken.
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I don't care what school anybody went to...if they passed all their board exams then their ability to become a physician is no longer in question. I rather have some douche who absolutely nailed the steps than some smuck from Harvard that failed it.
 
avo said:
Everybody here is approaching the idea of these prereqs from the perspective of a practicing physician. Yes, in that case, ochem might not be the most useful thing in the world.

However, keep in mind that the world of medicine also depends on research. MDs do research too, along with the MD/PhDs. In that situation, having an understanding of science at a fundamental level is important to be able to keep up with new developments.

Yes, pchem and fluid mechanics and such are important at a fundamental level, too. However, they are more advanced and would be impractical for someone with, say, a biology major. Organic chemistry is actually an introductory level class at most universities.
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When it comes to doing research and following literature, do you think it might also be similarly constructive for one's development into a physician if s/he does research in a field that is not directly related to medicine. E.g. what if the person is most academically creative in a branch of humanities? I'm wondering if both forms of intellectual development are equally appropriate for an applicant. I think the fundamental difference that I see in myself is that I am fascinated by people more so than with basic research.
 
Global Warming said:
I don't care what school anybody went to...if they passed all their board exams then their ability to become a physician is no longer in question. I rather have some douche who absolutely nailed the steps than some smuck from Harvard that failed it.
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I don't object. Are you saying that you would rather have it all come down to standardized tests? This would mean a restructuring of our entrance exams for medical school... which would mean no o-chem. People would avoid o-chem just because of the stress from the class. So, how do you then figure out which of these stress-avoidant pre-meds can actually handle the job? That's probably just one of many many other new questions that would have to be addressed from the removal of o-chem as a req'd class. I seriously have to stop reading SDN. It's not helping with studying.....
 
Eyti said:
I don't object. Are you saying that you would rather have it all come down to standardized tests? This would mean a restructuring of our entrance exams for medical school... which would mean no o-chem. People would avoid o-chem just because of the stress from the class. So, how do you then figure out which of these stress-avoidant pre-meds can actually handle the job? That's probably just one of many many other new questions that would have to be addressed from the removal of o-chem as a req'd class. I seriously have to stop reading SDN. It's not helping with studying.....
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😕😕😕😕😕+pad++pissed+:boom:
 
circulus vitios said:
Anyone can major in nutrition at a crappy state school, suck ass at the medical school prerequisites, and still graduate with a 3.8. How is that fair to pre-meds majorig in chemistry, math, physics, engineering, etc?
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Because they still have to take general chem, organic chem, physics, and bio as prerequisites. You just proved my point.
 
Global Warming said:
I don't care what school anybody went to...if they passed all their board exams then their ability to become a physician is no longer in question. I rather have some douche who absolutely nailed the steps than some smuck from Harvard that failed it.
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You completely missed the point. This is about the usefulness of organic chemistry and a student's success in said class. There is no reason to dumb down the education leading up to admission to US medical schools because pre-meds are crying that organic chemistry is too hard.
 
JimmerJammerMrK said:
Ochem is important. Physics is important. Learn them. 👍
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Physics has really changed the way I look at things. In fact, I find myself attempting to calculate and figure out every stupid little thing that I encounter. The other night, the news was talking about a man who drove his car off the bridge. Rather than feeling sorry for the situation, I applied

PE = KE

&

v^2=v^2 + 1/2at^2

I don't remember his name, but I do remember how much potential energy his car had, as well as the final speed before hitting the ground (neglecting air resistance).
 
J1515 said:
Because they still have to take general chem, organic chem, physics, and bio as prerequisites. You just proved my point.
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Yet they still take 80+ credits of easy nutrition classes, which boosts their GPA. I've never heard of Intro to Quantum Mechanics or Advanced Inorganic Chemistry as "gpa boosters."
 
circulus vitios said:
Yet they still take 80+ credits of easy nutrition classes, which boosts their GPA. I've never heard of Intro to Quantum Mechanics or Advanced Inorganic Chemistry as "gpa boosters."
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Adcoms know this. They look at organic chemistry, physics, etc... to compare.
 
circulus vitios said:
Yet they still take 80+ credits of easy nutrition classes, which boosts their GPA. I've never heard of Intro to Quantum Mechanics or Advanced Inorganic Chemistry as "gpa boosters."
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SDN premeds who know the game should know that gpa, regardless of major, rules all. No one is required to take anything beyond the basic prereqs. If you choose to major in something difficult, that is your own choice, done for your own reasons. No need to turn everything into a dick measuring contest, or to bitch/whine about the 3.9 English major who got into a school you were rejected from. You know the deal, you chose to do something harder for your own benefit, so stop ****ing complaining.

The Ochem that is required is basic Ochem that is to some extent an application of what is learned in general chemistry. It is an introduction to actual mechanisms instead of balancing equations/ICE tables, and gives you the tools to rationalize how one gets from reactant to product. It, along with gen chem, provide a solid basic background in chemistry. No, you're not going to be a pharmacist but then again, pharmacists need to know way more than you do. Those of you who say it's memorization of mechanisms missed the point of Ochem. Those of you who suggested having an Ochem for premeds without certain rxns vs Ochem for other science majors need to think of how economically viable that is for a school (An absolutely ******ed idea). Just because someone learned it and forgot it, doesn't mean it isn't useful. I'm pretty sure I'm going to forget 90+% of anatomy after this semester. But IF I ever need to recall it, it'll come to me that much faster, and that's what makes me different from the layperson. Anyway, excuse the grammar but I thought I'd put my $0.02 in really quick.

/rant
 
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anonymousername said:
the 15 posts you put out per day don't seem to contribute much to this forum (kudos on the time well spent)
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I think he's trying to establish himself as an authority without credentials.
 
(Organic), along with gen chem, provide a solid basic background in chemistry.
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I'm still not seeing why going to the chop shop and sticking the biochem-relevant parts of organic into a biochem course is a bad idea. You get the application and the relevance without the reaction mechanisms and other extraneous stuff. The difference in the anatomy example is that there is a pretty good chance you'll have to recall details of anatomy at one point or another. Organic vanishes forever.
 
anonymousername said:
the 15 posts you put out per day don't seem to contribute much to this forum (kudos on the time well spent)
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awww c'mon I love Mexican Dr. A day without reading one of his threads is like a day without sunshine.
 
MilkmanAl said:
I'm still not seeing why going to the chop shop and sticking the biochem-relevant parts of organic into a biochem course is a bad idea. You get the application and the relevance without the reaction mechanisms and other extraneous stuff.
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I don't see how anyone could understand it without a good foundation of Ochem under their belt. And there are many extraneous things that we learn if we look at it in the long run.

The difference in the anatomy example is that there is a pretty good chance you'll have to recall details of anatomy at one point or another. Organic vanishes forever.
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My opinion is that we don't know what we'll need until we start practicing. Personally, if I could learn the very minimum, or go through a very streamlined curriculum before wards, I would. But I'm not against this either, even though it is absolute hell right now.
 
MilkmanAl said:
I'm still not seeing why going to the chop shop and sticking the biochem-relevant parts of organic into a biochem course is a bad idea. You get the application and the relevance without the reaction mechanisms and other extraneous stuff. The difference in the anatomy example is that there is a pretty good chance you'll have to recall details of anatomy at one point or another. Organic vanishes forever.
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Agreed. I'm 2 weeks from the end of the basic sciences and I have never had to recall any of the info I learned in organic.
 
These all exist for reasons. Is there much difference at all between an individual who gets an 89 as opposed to a 90? No, but there must be cut-offs. How else are applicants narrowed down?

The filter sucks when you're the one being filtered out.
 
Mackey said:
These all exist for reasons. Is there much difference at all between an individual who gets an 89 as opposed to a 90? No, but there must be cut-offs. How else are applicants narrowed down?

The filter sucks when you're the one being filtered out.
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I agree that it's a weed-out. I mean it's obvious we're not using the info much post undergrad.
 
Honestly, I don't think orgo really helps with biochem. I did the whole memorize and forget deal for orgo and did fine. In biochem, the only thing I really used from orgo was electron pushing and that doesn't require a semester of orgo to master. I did very well in biochem and it was a hell of a lot more interesting than orgo. While I do dislike orgo, I think using it as a "weed out" course is a good idea.

I don't understand why people are saying to remove physics as a prereq. It's such an important subject and helps very much in understanding physiology. Not only that, you're only required to take like a survey of physics as a prereq (in my opinion, you can't truly understand or appreciate physics without calculus); so why are people complaining? It's nice to take a conceptual class that requires thinking rather than the endless memorization required in most bio courses.
 
thepoopologist said:
SDN premeds who know the game should know that gpa, regardless of major, rules all. No one is required to take anything beyond the basic prereqs. If you choose to major in something difficult, that is your own choice, done for your own reasons. No need to turn everything into a dick measuring contest, or to bitch/whine about the 3.9 English major who got into a school you were rejected from. You know the deal, you chose to do something harder for your own benefit, so stop ****ing complaining. /rant
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I wasn't complaining. The other guy was crying his little eyes out over DO schools and off-shore MD schools because they're too easy to get into. I pointed out that if he thought that way, then why not ban easy majors.
 
As useless as o chem material may be to a practicing physician, the analytical skills that are required to understand o chem is absolutely necessary to being a good physican. I doubt med schools require o chem because they want us to know a bunch of reactions so that we can synth compounds. They want to be sure that we can learn how to take bits and pieces of complex information and put them together in a meaningful way to reach a certain ending.

starting reagent ---> ---> ---> product

pathology ---> ---> ---> non-pathological

What do you need to do to get to the end product/healthy state if you are presented with a certain starting reagents/pathological signs and symptoms?

I say keep o chem. 👍
 
Again, you can learn all the skills organic chem classes impart through other science classes. Analysis and information integration are not unique to that course. Interestingly, physics, the class people tend to disrespect the most out of the pre-reqs, is the one that's best at getting you to think holistically about the information you're presented, but not many people seem to argue that as a saving grace in its case.
 
MilkmanAl said:
Again, you can learn all the skills organic chem classes impart through other science classes. Analysis and information integration are not unique to that course. Interestingly, physics, the class people tend to disrespect the most out of the pre-reqs, is the one that's best at getting you to think holistically about the information you're presented, but not many people seem to argue that as a saving grace in its case.
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Pre-meds love to hate what they cannot memorize. You mean I have to think to do physics?!
 
Most people don't understand that all of these subjects are useless once you are in medical school.

The only reason you have to be better at these subjects than everyone else is because a) the MCAT tests you on them and b) medical schools require much higher GPAs than other graduate schools.

Will you be ok if you forget everything you learned in physics, organic chemistry, general chemistry and biology after you get accepted? Of course. They're all useless after your junior year.
 
I'm with Milkman on this. I don't understand why everyone thinks Organic Chemistry is unique in it's ability to challenge students to think and reason out information. I'd like to point out something as well. For most schools, Organic 2 is taken only after gen chem 1, gen chem 2, and organic 1. That's 3 prereqs before you get to the 4th level. Do you have any idea what the 4th physics class or molecular biology class is like down the line? I can say with certainty that you'll learn plenty of "interesting" information in the physics class and that you'll struggle to reason out your answers. There's nothing special about organic chemistry.
 
Narmerguy said:
I'm with Milkman on this. I don't understand why everyone thinks Organic Chemistry is unique in it's ability to challenge students to think and reason out information. I'd like to point out something as well. For most schools, Organic 2 is taken only after gen chem 1, gen chem 2, and organic 1. That's 3 prereqs before you get to the 4th level. Do you have any idea what the 4th physics class or molecular biology class is like down the line? I can say with certainty that you'll learn plenty of "interesting" information in the physics class and that you'll struggle to reason out your answers. There's nothing special about organic chemistry.
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So in the alternate universe, pre-meds whine about the 4th level of physics as their bottle-neck while someone points out that we should just take the 4th level of chemistry instead, since it at least helps us with biochem.

And we're back to square one.
 
Mackey said:
So in the alternate universe, pre-meds whine about the 4th level of physics as their bottle-neck while someone points out that we should just take the 4th level of chemistry instead, since it at least helps us with biochem.

And we're back to square one.
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I wasn't advocating taking either one. My point was, if you pick the 4th level of most sciences you're very likely to get a lot of characteristics similar to organic chemistry. My point is, preserving a science that's not useful simply because of the intellectual challenges it brings is misguided.

I personally enjoy both organic chemistry and physics (which is part of the reason why I'm double majoring in chemistry and physics.
 
I can definitely appreciate what organic taught me.

When I took cell biology in undergrad we had a pretty tough teacher who made us memorize tons of cellular reactions. I found it much more easier to apply what I learned in organic chemistry when I was memorizing the reactive intermediates in glycolysis... it made a lot more sense when you understand the basic mechanisms that are happening each step of the way.
 
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